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  1. #1
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    650b MV '10. Half way there.

    DH, climbing and technical sections are improved. No more tuck sensation in fast, tight turns.
    I did flip the stem and added shock psi in an attempt at keeping the front end down on the steep climbs.

    My window for full 650b conversion has been greatly reduced, due to the ultra-lite front end.
    I like the current geometry, but I can't recommend this set-up unless you're in like Florida.

    Got a P35 w/OE hub built($148). inet parts and LBS build. I went with a Pacenti Neo-moto tire.

    Only a few rides so far. A 29'er buddy stated how much better it feels. He doesn't feel the need to get right back on his bike when he forces me to ride his demos and new 29'er. lol
    FYI, never ride a 29'er right after you make a 26" purchase. I'll see if this holds true for a 650b as well.

  2. #2
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    I tried a 29er on the front of my 09 MV and a fox F29 100. As far as handling goes it actually felt better than with a 140 fork on[ pity it's only 100mm travel though]. If I'd sleeved the F29 down to 80 mm travel it would have been similar crown to ground height as 26er with F120 and would give that lazy carving feel of a 29er front end. Similar to my Wolf Ridge.

    My biggest rear tire[ mich wild rock'r 2.25] is only 12mm less dia than a Neo moto so I didn't see any point in trying a 650b in the rear. If I let all the air out of the shock the Wild rock'r actually rubs the seat stay but I've never had it touch riding.

    A 29er fits in the rear and you can ride it gently with the pressure up around 250psi to limit the travel of the shock. You get about 50mm of rear wheel travel before the wheel hits the seat stay. So all you need to do is make 25mm drop out extensions for the bolt on dropouts and you've got yourself a 29er.With the F29 100 and the 29er rear, the BB height is about 340mm which is about the same as the Turner Sultan[ similar head angle and frame weight as well].
    There's a good project for someone. Eventually I will get round to it. But I've already got two 29ers.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 03-12-2011 at 11:37 PM.

  3. #3
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    I got the rear done, so I'm full 650b now.

    Good info. from the Kiwi. OEM is only a starting point. Innit mate?
    Wheelbase is on my mind now. My MV wheelbase is about 3.5" shorter than a GF Rumblefish.
    Custom extended drop-outs and increased fork crown off-set should deliver more of the 29'r vibe I'm seeking.
    Can I change-out my F-Series fork crown?

  4. #4
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    I've got a gary fisher F120 with G2 offset on my MV, but I think it gives less than 10mm increase in wheelbase. Long way to 3.5".

    Does the 650B front wheel make the front less nervous pushing it in to loose corners? I might try it if it does. It's not much increase in dia over a big 26" tire though

    That's the one impression I get with a 29er over a 26er. You actually don't need the extra wheelbase as the big wheel is so forgiving and you can push so much harder in to corners. Same with heading down the hill.

    I've got my Trance set up as a 69er now with the F29 100 fork and I think I will keep it that way. Looking at the 650b or full 29er conversion for the MV.
    my '11 trance X 96er

  5. #5
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    [QUOTE=socalscott]I got the rear done, so I'm full 650b now.

    What's it handle like compared to full 26er and just 650b on the front? I'd like to do mine if it's any good.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 04-21-2011 at 02:02 PM.

  6. #6
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    Glad to have a tinkering comrade.

    Yeah, I was hoping more like 15mm for the off-set. I was considering something like 15mm/25mm split.
    Hmm, just sticking +25mm hangers out back will cause a fuss for the Quad specs., but to what degree is the question.
    I can see custom hangers including a higher axle position. This would slacken HA whilst shifting weight bias back again to some degree. Grrr...Quad-Link alchemy.
    Rider position, shock/fork pressures, weight bias to the front tire.
    Well, I can see better climbing, increased stability and front tire traction. Is it enough for handling changes? Is it too much for the Quad system?

    The 650b does offer more confidence in fast and loose turns. Holds a line better on steep trail walls too. I can't say how much better than your big 26's though.

    Depending on hanger fabrication costs I can see 650b + stretched hangers being a worthy gamble. Cost:Benefit, that's the rub. I think I'll see what our community college CNC machinist class can do me for. They just may like a little project like this. Wish me luck.

  7. #7
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    My WR gets it's extra travel from longer stays.Shock is identical and linkage looks identical? Just needs higher shock pressure due to different ratio.

    The longer stays will also help if you do move your weight back. I've used 140 fork/'26r and F29 100 fork/ 29er fronts which lift and slacken but had to much rear weight shift. With the shorter stays and slack seat angle impacts rear suspension to much for my liking. The setups same on my Trance with it's longer stays and maestro rear end was better.
    Others like over tall fork setups but having experienced bikes designed with slacker angles and those just modified with tall forks the OEM slacker bike are streets ahead in a balanced ride.

    If I made up some longer dropouts or adapters I would hang a 140mm fork/26er or 650b on the front since you will increase the travel at the back. Other option is full 29er but I would probably do as you suggest and lower the rear end as BB height will be huge as a 29er.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 04-21-2011 at 05:52 PM.

  8. #8
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    That's right, more travel. Hold on, so there might be 120mm of net travel. lol

    I think both ends would need higher air pressure, yes. Moving the axle back will equate to more weight to the forks and of course the leverage out back for the shock.

    I'd like having the option of going to 29" out back if I chose to grab a G2 F29 100mm fork. I'd likely only go with 29 up front, as 650b out back would keep the BB happy.

  9. #9
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    I am also experimenting with a Marin (2004 Rift Zone). Curious which Neo-Moto you are using, the 2.1 or 2.3? I have a set of the 2.3 and I am finding the clearance on the back to be very close to the front derailleur. When I am in the lowest gear, the tire rubs on the front derailleur cage. Some tinkering may help this, but it is so close...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zombinate
    I am also experimenting with a Marin (2004 Rift Zone). Curious which Neo-Moto you are using, the 2.1 or 2.3? I have a set of the 2.3 and I am finding the clearance on the back to be very close to the front derailleur. When I am in the lowest gear, the tire rubs on the front derailleur cage. Some tinkering may help this, but it is so close...
    Same derailleur issue with 2.3. Adjusting a touch helps quite a bit. The catch is I'm having an occasional issue with dropping to the small front ring. D'oh!
    Hmmm...now where's that dremel?

  11. #11
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    glad I'm not going crazy for no reason. I am going to play with the quasi's a bit. will report back.

  12. #12
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    I've orderd a 650b front for my WR and MV. Interested to see how it corners compared to stock 26'. Big drawback is have to use different tires unfortunately.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz
    I've orderd a 650b front for my WR and MV. Interested to see how it corners compared to stock 26'. Big drawback is have to use different tires unfortunately.
    yes, keep us posted.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pulpwoody
    yes, keep us posted.
    Oh, he's gonna love it in the apex. It won't want to tuck in so readily. I'm a little surprised he's getting in the water. With those big tires he runs and all.

    Now lets see what he has to say about the steepest climbs on that MV.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalscott
    Oh, he's gonna love it in the apex. .
    Yeh that's a good description for where I'm hoping it will make a difference. Just love the way you can push a 29er front wheel in to a loose corner and not have to wrestle with the bars.
    I'm hoping the 15mm dia will make a difference over my current big tires?

  16. #16
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    Stirring the pot. My updated 2004 Rift Zone:

    Full details here: Full suspension 650b conversion (picture heavy)


  17. #17
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    Did mock up with the 09 WR and 2.3 neo-moto on a Blunt just kisses the seat stay at full travel as compared to the 09 MV which does rub but you never get full travel on either bike anyway.
    Only got cell phone pics.
    Attached Images Attached Images   

  18. #18
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    The Kiwi is olding out onnis results. Come out wiffit mate.

  19. #19
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    Tried it on the front so far. Still got to build up a wheel for the back yet.
    You were right it does make a difference. Using a neo-moto 2.3 on the front compared to a 2.4 Nobby Nic..
    The grip and stability in the loose conditions is much better. Almost as good as a 29er. Didn't notice any roll over affect in the front . Mainly because the tires are a bit harsh compared to the bigger volume and smoother ride of the nobby nic. That's my only disappointment so far. I'm pretty critical of harsh tires and the choice and availability is pretty bad. Wouldn't mind trying the bigger volume Wolverines but as soon as any tire becomes available they get snapped up. I've got some racing Ralph's coming from Europe. I know how they ride so will be interested in how much grip I get out of them in the 650b size. I've got them in 26 and 29er size so i can do some back to back testing.

  20. #20
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    The NM will treat you more gently if you ask it to. Are you running tubeless?

  21. #21
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    No not yet. I'm running as low a pressure as I can with a latex tube as compared to butyl in the Nobby nics. IMHO I can let the tires down about 1 psi[ digital gauge] and get same feel as tubeless. Probably try a P35 on the front and see if that improves it?

    How do you find the 650b in the rear:? Do you notice any better rollover effect on the big stuff?That low amplitude stuff is where the MV excels anyway.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 06-17-2011 at 11:19 PM.

  22. #22
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    It feels good in the rear. You may like it in the rear too? Well, maybe not at first. lol

    So, yeah. Although the changes are more subtle out back, there is an improvement in every aspect.
    I recently did a loop following a 26'er of similar level. There were many instances where the b tires would have me up on him, rubbing his nobs. The rider had more cardio on me, but I think the b's made up the difference enough to keep some wind in my sails.

  23. #23
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    I built up a rear wheel the other day. Did one back to back ride on the MV to compare with 26" rear and there is definitely a speed increase on the 650b Neo 2.1. Haven't done enough rides to compare over rough terrain. Steering didn't feel any different between 26" or 650 B on the rear with the 650b on the front. Ran quite low shock pressure and didn't get any seat stay rub.
    So far have noticed definite improvement in cornering grip/ traction with 650b on the front and additional speed and rollover with 650b on the back .

    I'll try and post some pics some time.

    Good mod for MV and WR. Additional bonus with these two frames.

  24. #24
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    I find the rolling speed up to a new RumbleFish 29'er a buddy has. I have to slow up for chit-chat with 26'ers.
    I had to ride a Santa Cruz yesterday and in many ways I was frustrated.

    I'm stoked that my b intentions for the MV purchase played out quite well.

  25. #25
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    Finally got round to getting some pics. WR is true full 650b capable. MV does rub seat stay at 49mm shock travel .if you ever managed to get full travel out of the shock then it might be a problem.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 650b MV '10.  Half way there.-dscf0032.jpg  

    650b MV '10.  Half way there.-dscf0036.jpg  

    650b MV '10.  Half way there.-dscf0041.jpg  


  26. #26
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    So with the WR, which is "closer" to my AT, did the slow speed handling change? I would imagine that getting the front end up would be a bit more difficult with the extra weight and the slight lengthening of the wheel base. Have you noticed that?

    Is the change that drastic that it's worth the change of getting new rims and tires? I guess that's the bottom line.

  27. #27
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    I was running 2.4 Nobby Nics and Big Betty's before so there is only about a 7mm rise in crown height.
    Extra grip and stability in loose corners is very noticeable. Not so in hard pack trails. It use to rail loose corners with a bit of a twitch and counter steer. Now it just rails without a shake.

    WR is 67 degree specd with a Pike, so I'm guessing with my Float and a 26" wheel I would be about 67.5 degree. 650b front only I would be back to 67 degree.

    Moving from 650b front only to 650b front and rear I notice no difference in handling.

    It's a while since I did a few back to back runs on 26" vs 650B front. So from memory, The 650b made more positive difference cornering at speed than any negative difference in slow speed handling. It appeared that the extra contact patch area and momentum has more effect than the extra trail does on slow speed handling. I'm sure it was noticeable but not detrimental. Put it this way it's not a problem for my set up. With your AT being slacker and longer,if your slow speed handling is borderline now then it may be an issue. If you can go down 10mm in stem length It will help.

    There's a few who ride AM bikes like Nomads in the 650b forums but not sure how much technical slow speed riding they do.

    The AT and WR have similar chain stay length. With the extra travel I'm don't think you'd squeeze a 650b in the rear without rubbing seat stay at full travel?

    Be interested to know though.

  28. #28
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    I've got a 150 Revelation on another bike so I might xfer it over to the WR and trial it with the 650b. That will put front end within 0.5 degree of an AT.

    I have my suspicions that it will be ok but and the positive effect of running 650b will have less influence on the slacker set up.Might be a case of don't fix what isn't broken.

  29. #29
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    My slow speed handling on the AT is awesome. Actually, I've been riding faster through the tight and twisty rock sections out here in Austin (we have lots of them.) I've really focused on my cornering and using less brake, so overall, I'm not 'really' searching to improve the bike. However, if there's not a loss in the slow speed handling or the flickability of the bike, and the wheels improve cornering, traction, and smooth out some of the rough rocky downhill sections (again, we have lots of them), then this is certainly worth considering. Especially since I might be looking at replacing my back rim within the next year.

  30. #30
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    Sounds like it's worth a try then. You'll notice a difference cornering traction in the loose but if your trails are hard pack then it's a mute difference. Sounds like your trails aren't too tight and your enjoying holding speed and carving the turns making the most of the slack angles. The 650b will enhance that carving due to the 29er stability feel.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 07-27-2011 at 02:30 PM.

  31. #31
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    Did a run today with 150mm Rev and 650B and seemed fine. I did a run with a 26" wheel first and the bigger difference in slow speed handling was from the fork's 20mm higher AC. I'm running a 80mm stem and wouldn't want to have anything longer.
    Quite liked the slacker angle but the 15mm maxle rev has about a mm clearance for a 2.3 neo-moto. I believe the 20mm maxle version may have more?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 650b MV '10.  Half way there.-dscf0065.jpg  


  32. #32
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    However, if there's not a loss in the slow speed handling or the flickability of the bike, and the wheels improve cornering, traction, and smooth out some of the rough rocky downhill sections (again, we have lots of them), then this is certainly worth considering. Especially since I might be looking at replacing my back rim within the next year.[/QUOTE]

    Just a foot note on smoothing out rocky terrain.

    I think you were running Nev 2.35's before? You will notice extra grip and should run a bit smoother over moderate terrain going to 650B. May want to post in 650B forum for anyone who has run both.

    Nev 2.35's are small volume, similar to the neo-moto 2.35's I'm running. I was previously running big volume 26" tires. I can feel more feedback in the bars over sharp edge hits like tree roots and ledges, with the neo-motos, than I could with Nobby nic 2.4's. No different to 29ers really. On the front, over sharp edge hits, the tire doesn't get a chance to roll over and tire cush plays a big part in smoothing them out.

    You may get extra cush by trying a bigger volume tire. Any of the schwalbe 2.4's, maxxis ardent and advantage 2.4 or conti Trail king 2.4[ and even TK 2.2 ]are bigger volume.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 07-29-2011 at 08:12 PM.

  33. #33
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    gsv-nz, do you have any experience with the '10 MV frame fitting 650b? I have a Rev 20mm TA on it as well. (set to 130mm)

  34. #34
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    Not on the '10.. socalscott would be able to help you. Should have a couple of mm more clearance than the 09 with the slightly steeper seat tube. what's your BB height with the Rev at 130 though?

  35. #35
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    i will measure it tomorrow. Is it to the center or the bottom of the frame

  36. #36
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    It's measured to the centre of the crank spindle. The 2010 is supposed to be lower than previous years?What tires are you running at the moment.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 02-15-2012 at 01:22 AM.

  37. #37
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    I just measured it and it is 13.35inches .

    Nobby Nic 2.5, and I love this tire. It is awesome. I can lay it over in corrners and it flys down the hard pack single track.

  38. #38
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    That's a good height.
    From No Ni 2.4 you'll raise your BB about 3/8" which is no big deal . From No Ni 2.25 probably 5/8".
    I've got No Ni 2.4 and 2.25. if you think they hook in on the corners a Neo moto 2.3 , even though it only about 3/4" bigger diameter offers lots more grip. No Ni will be faster. I would even put it on the line that a Neo moto 2.1[ i have them mounted on a P35 rim so are about 2.25" wide] would come close to the grip of a No Ni 2.4 . You can push the 650b harder in to corners as they have more stability and a longer contact patch.
    A 650b on the rear will give a lift in speed on moderate terrain. I actually ride 26" on the rear most of the time as I prefer the geometry on the 09. The No Ni 2.4 snakeskin gives a good ride at low pressure and will ride smoother than the neo moto's as they are not as big a volume. So over big stuff they will feel smoother than current 650b tires. Bigger 650b will rub the seat stay so a neo moto is as big as you could go. The neo 2.3 will also rub your front derailleur. No problem for me as I ride 1 x 9 . A neo 2.1 or Ra Ra 2.25 is a good rear tire and shouldn't rub the derailleur.

    Maybe try a 650b on the front when your No Ni wears out. Steering could be a bit slow with your Rev at 130? A 650b on the rear will help. That's when your BB will lift though. I don't actually notice it once up to speed.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 02-16-2012 at 08:39 PM.

  39. #39
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    gsv_nz no problem with the Revelation? You are the only one I can find that has info on the revelation and 650b.

    I am runnign a 1 x system also, no FD to worry about. BTW I meant to type a NN 2.25 not 2.5.

  40. #40
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    Just bought Kapusta's Medium Mount Vision - going to take it to the full 650b route. Stay tuned!

  41. #41
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    If I was a medium I would have grabbed it myself.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flboy View Post
    gsv_nz no problem with the Revelation? You are the only one I can find that has info on the revelation and 650b.

    I am runnign a 1 x system also, no FD to worry about. BTW I meant to type a NN 2.25 not 2.5.
    As a front I can recommend a Neo 2.1 on a P35 or maybe new Pacenti TL31 when they come out.

    Rumour is more 650b tires coming out in a yeras time. maybe No Ni or x king 650b

  43. #43
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    Gsv, the revelation a solid go or a no go now that you have been on it for a little bit?

  44. #44
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    I swap forks around a lot. I use my Fox forks manly for 650B. Mine is a 2011 15mm QR RLti . I have no concerns running a neo 2.1 on the front in dry conditions[ only a couple of mm clearance though]. It will however pick up a few stones along the away and you hear them scrape under the brace. The neo 2.3 only has a hairs width clearance. Rs lowers are all over the place regarding wheel clearance. I believe, from the 650b fork thread that the 20mm maxle Rev has much better clearance?

  45. #45
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    Got mine done over the weekend.

    Didn't get a chance to ride it to test it out yet, but it feels pretty cool!

    I am a little worried that it rides a little bit "tall" - but only trail time will tell.

    i'm hoping I can get away with my 1x9 set up with the stuff I had on hand. I actually think it may work. The chain is sandwiched between the bashguard and an N-Gear Jump stop. We shall see if it works once I hit the trails with it.




  46. #46
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    Yeh my XL size frame would be more forgiving with the high BB. Med does look tall and short with the big wheels. Have you got a step ladder.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Yeh my XL size frame would be more forgiving with the high BB. Med does look tall and short with the big wheels. Have you got a step ladder.
    it is not that bad really. Maybe the slope of the driveway is throwing it off. Easy to get off and back on and plenty of standover when resting.

    I think I may have too much PSI in both the shock and fork. Maybe with more sag front and back it'll feel less "high up" if you will.

    Time will tell.

  48. #48
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    Your fork looks like a F130? If so, you could drop it down to 120. might squeeze 1/4" off the BB height? Mine comes alive with F120. Rear end packs up with a F140. Feels like my Trance X, wooden and boring.
    Last edited by gvs_nz; 03-07-2012 at 12:34 PM.

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by gvs_nz View Post
    Your fork looks like a F130? If so, you could drop it down to 120. might squeeze 1/4" off the BB height? Mine comes alive with F120. Rear end packs up with a F140. Feels like my Trance X, wooden and boring.
    It is an F130.

    I have a Talas 125 - I am contemplating swapping the forks. Putting the 130 on the Blue Pig and Talas on the Marin.

  50. #50
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    Put my WR in 650B short travel mode while my F140 and Rev 150 are on other bikes. With the shorter F120 it has great 650B geometry, handling and BB height but about a 1lb heavier than your MV frame.Need some helium. Bit tougher on the short sharp climbs. Can't ride it slow anywhere else though. The shorter fork and steeper head angle means it tracks and carves great.The firmish rear end is well balanced with the shorter fork. I think it's about 68ish head angle and about 13.75" BB, which should be identical to your MV current set up. Much more planted and balanced ride than the MV which is hyper, but fun, in comparison. It's deceptive how my BB looks much lower than yours.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 650b MV '10.  Half way there.-dscf0097.jpg  

    Last edited by gvs_nz; 03-09-2012 at 10:00 PM.

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