Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: sweet spot

  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: androgen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    901

    sweet spot

    i postulate that the sweet spot for lights ( not self contained ) given today's technology is 1500 to 2000 lumens. any more than that and adequate heat sinking becomes problematic, resulting in jumbo sized light heads and thermal stepping down. any less than this and beam pattern gets too narrow to give adequate coverage.

    i came to this realization after noticing that Dinotte XML3 with 4 cell pack at $229 is only $10 more than Dinotte L400 with 4 cell pack at $219 despite having 4 times the output ! 1500 Lumen XML3 is only 5% more expensive than 400 Lumen L400. WHY ? because it doesn't really cost that much more to make a 1500 Lumen light than a 400 Lumen light.

    it's like when BMW CEO admitted that 5 series costs the same to make as 3 series but sells for $20,000 more. actually he didn't admit this - he bragged about this to shareholders during the release of new 5 series, explaining why 5 series makes as much $ for BMW as all other models combined.

    basically all well made lights cost about the same to make. they still use all the same major parts - battery, charger, cables, connectors, housing, switches, microprocessors, heat sinks etc. the differences exist of course but are minor - mostly a few extra lithium cells and LEDs which maybe add up to $40 difference in manufacturing cost between a 400 Lumen light and 2000 Lumen light.

    so lights below 1500 lumen are basically stupid. they're designed for silly people who think there can be such a thing as "enough" or even "too much" light.

    on the other hand lights above 2,000 lumen like Lupine Betty are also stupid because they cannot sustain that output anyway - they either run out of cooling or run out of battery. the Wilma is a well priced light. Betty costs double just so you can tell everybody that your light is 4500 lumens but in reality there is barely any advantage of Betty over Wilma. the difference in cooling is not that great and the battery is the same altogether. Betty should be altogether discontinued - it is junk - the only reason they make it is for people who buy rolex watches just to let everybody know they can afford them and then use their iPhone to look up time.

    ironically more people buy Betty than Wilma because Wilma doesn't come with the sort of bragging rights that Betty comes with, and that's the only reason people buy Lupine.

    less people even buy Wilma than Piko, because Wilma actually costs money. meanwhile the Piko is a worthless light that is outperformed by almost all other lights on the market that cost half as much. i should know - i returned mine to gretna bikes.

    so the only good light in Lupine lineup - the Wilma - nobody buys ! and everybody buys the worthless Betty and Piko. this is the reason why the Lupine lineup has those 3 lights - 2 lights are for status ( Betty is status light for rich people and Piko is a status light for poor people ) and one light is an actually great light ( Wilma ) that nobody will ever buy.

    anyway, obviously i don't expect anybody to agree with my Lupine analysis, but i do expect you to agree that 1500 to 2000 lumens or 3 to 4 XMLs is the sweet spot given current technology ?

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: znomit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,693
    Somewhere out there a Rolex wearing, BMW driving, iPhone carrying, Lupine user is crying.
    DIY LED Bike Lights:
    A few Dynamo builds and some Small battery lights

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: androgen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by znomit View Post
    Somewhere out there a Rolex wearing, BMW driving, iPhone carrying, Lupine user is crying.
    that's funny !

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,631
    I very much doubt that the Betty outsells the Wilma. It's the other way around, I'm sure.

    FWIW, in my use of the Wilma 2400, I have yet to have it dim due to heating.

    1500 lumens is sort of the floor of light brightness where you don't have to make any accommodations to riding at night - view of the area in front of you is about what you'd see during the day. I'd agree that it's sort of a good price point too, right now.

    J.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    225
    1500-2000 lumen setups vary so much on price across the different manufactures. Prime example is light and motion. Thier 2000 lumen setup is about $500+. Whereas it could be much cheaper from other vendors.

    So while I agree with you there is still evaluation that needs to be done to pick a light beyond just the lumen sweetspot. There are 1500 lumen lights with poor cooling the same as there are 2000 lumen lights out there with over boosted claims and poor battery and workmanship. All lights are for sure not created equal. Even though they all use LEDs, batteries, circuits, cables etc.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gharddog03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by znomit View Post
    Somewhere out there a Rolex wearing, BMW driving, iPhone carrying, Lupine user is crying.
    Lol.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    980
    My 1500 Seca is too bright for most situations while MTBing; generally run it at 800.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    114
    Quote Originally Posted by androgen View Post
    ... obviously i don't expect anybody to agree with my Lupine analysis ...
    I also don't expect that. But as prevention and to give a completion of the picture, I think it's necessary to mention that you never have held the Wilma nor the Betty in your hands. Some reflexions about the "sweet spot", why not. But what I don't understand at all is why the half of your post is focused on the alleged uselessness of a good part of the Lupine gear, which in fact you just don't know by your own. Not to mention your guessings about how many pieces are sold of each model, this is pure speculation, the word "analysis" is raw disinformation in this case.

    But I give you a hint that could help to verify indeed your speculations. AFAIK, all Lupine model/versions have a simple continuouos piece number starting at 1, so just stating the number of units produced. I would bet you didn't know. Just saw a Piko lately having a six digit number, quite too much commercial optimism for my taste, but the number was around 25000 at least.

    As for my guess, I also highly doubt Bettys to be sold more than Wilmas. Specially now with the new Wilma putting out the same amount like the Betty 2-3 years ago.
    What I can say is my old Betty puts out some 2000 lumen and I am still almost happy with it and personally for my "moderate" use I don't feel much need for more. So at least seems we do agree in this point, but this must be pure coincidence.
    But I agree the point that the production costs of a piece of 2000 or 4000 lumens cannot not make that much difference like the price difference might make you (want to) think. But I guess that's just "business". I've read about graphiccards of high- and mid-level, in fact being identical, but with some artificially blocked transistors for the mid-level to scale down the output.

    Nevertheless you post somehow strongly collides with you own IMO overloaded setup, well broadcasted in this forum. My conclusion after all was that you credo was "the more, the better"?

    And don't forget to learn the lesson that dimming is a direct function of dissipation design, ambient temperature and cooling through the airflow of the motion ...
    The same gear might work for an arab runner, while disappointing an inuit sitting in his igloo ...

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MaximusHQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    583
    Once again androgen doesn't fail to entertain. I do appreciate the contribution of androgen's videos and reading his posts are usually good for the entertainment value. You have quite a way with words androgen.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pethelman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    295
    Androgen,
    I think you more or less hit it on the head. Depending on how well the beam pattern is managed, anything in that 1200 to 1800 lumen range is plenty adequate for most riding with the best efficiencies. Trying to go higher is an exercise in rapidly diminishing returns for a lot of the reasons you described. In general, you have to boost lumen output by more than 15% to even notice a difference, and to perceive a meaningful step up you have to practically double the lumen output. This means that you'd have to jump up to 4000 lumens to sort of get that one step up from 2000, but it would come at a HUGE expense with regard to power consumption and heat. Anyway, good post.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: androgen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by CHnuschti View Post
    Nevertheless you post somehow strongly collides with you own IMO overloaded setup, well broadcasted in this forum. My conclusion after all was that you credo was "the more, the better"?
    no contradiction - quite the opposite. the post justifies using 2 X 1700 lumen Secas versus a single Betty ( however this will not work if you need the wider beam of a super-big light like NiteRider Pro 3600 or 2200 ).

    by the way, i shot a 30 minute long new video yesterday featuring 2 X Seca setup and the Dosun. but i fell asleep before i could edit it. i will do that now ...

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,631
    Well, you're wrong that lights over 2000 lumens can't sustain that output for long. I can ride with my 2400 (real) lumen Wilma putting out the maximum until the battery runs out. In point of fact, I've never had it step down on it's own. That alone proves your statement wrong.

    My guess is that the same is true with the Betty given that Lupine is pretty conservative in it's design. That all said, I'd still bet that it can do that at 3400 lumens (same as the two Seca lights you are using) and never step down until the battery is depleted. In that case, I'd MUCH rather have a single light than a set of two lights and two batteries (or a Y cord and half the batter life). It's just much less complicated.

    J.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: androgen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    Androgen,
    I think you more or less hit it on the head. Depending on how well the beam pattern is managed, anything in that 1200 to 1800 lumen range is plenty adequate for most riding with the best efficiencies. Trying to go higher is an exercise in rapidly diminishing returns for a lot of the reasons you described. In general, you have to boost lumen output by more than 15% to even notice a difference, and to perceive a meaningful step up you have to practically double the lumen output. This means that you'd have to jump up to 4000 lumens to sort of get that one step up from 2000, but it would come at a HUGE expense with regard to power consumption and heat. Anyway, good post.
    thanks !

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    225
    Quote Originally Posted by androgen View Post
    ....

    by the way, i shot a 30 minute long new video yesterday featuring 2 X Seca setup and the Dosun. but i fell asleep before i could edit it. i will do that now ...
    You finish editing that video yet?

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: androgen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    Well, you're wrong that lights over 2000 lumens can't sustain that output for long. I can ride with my 2400 (real) lumen Wilma putting out the maximum until the battery runs out. In point of fact, I've never had it step down on it's own. That alone proves your statement wrong.

    My guess is that the same is true with the Betty given that Lupine is pretty conservative in it's design. That all said, I'd still bet that it can do that at 3400 lumens (same as the two Seca lights you are using) and never step down until the battery is depleted. In that case, I'd MUCH rather have a single light than a set of two lights and two batteries (or a Y cord and half the batter life). It's just much less complicated.

    J.
    we already had users reporting 4500 lumen betty stepping down to as much as half the output for anything but fast paced ride.

    two wilmas will give you double the battery capacity compared to a Betty, while at the same price, with more output and with less thermal stepping down. win-win-win.

    i don't know if wilma mount can be aimed left to right - if not - you won't be able to run two of them on the helmet. but the Seca CAN be aimed left-right and two Secas on the helmet works perfectly.

    you said you "limit yourself" ( your words ) to one headlight and one tail light. well that's your problem. i don't limit myself

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: androgen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    You finish editing that video yet?
    the video is up - i was just waiting for YouTube to finish processing it so it will show up in proper quality before sharing the link. but it's here:

    Last edited by androgen; 10-07-2013 at 04:06 PM.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    225
    Androgen, it is hard to imagine that you WANT to put even more lights on your bike. You do stand out with all the lights on there. It is almost laughable to look at the end of the video with all the lights on and blinking from the back and the amount of light shining forward etc. The bar end lights are more visible than I expected.

    Order up the other lights and get er done!!!

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gharddog03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    336
    Androgen. That is pretty awesome but just a tad overkill for me. Has anyone ever modified a police lamp head used for a bike light? Federal signal, whelen, code 3 ect? I think a rear red whelen linz6 would be awesome.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: androgen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    Androgen, it is hard to imagine that you WANT to put even more lights on your bike. You do stand out with all the lights on there. It is almost laughable to look at the end of the video with all the lights on and blinking from the back and the amount of light shining forward etc. The bar end lights are more visible than I expected.

    Order up the other lights and get er done!!!
    these Trek Beacon bar end lights are pretty cool. they are probably out of place on a bike with a Dinotte tail light but for what they are they are quite good, and very sturdy too. i accidentally clip the wall with them all the time and they're still like new.

    on the whole bar end lights are a questionable idea, but if you're going to get them - i would strongly recommend getting the Trek Beacon.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: androgen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by Gharddog03 View Post
    Androgen. That is pretty awesome but just a tad overkill for me. Has anyone ever modified a police lamp head used for a bike light? Federal signal, whelen, code 3 ect? I think a rear red whelen linz6 would be awesome.
    you have a link to the product you mention ?

    although i can tell you i already get treated with suspicion by the police. if there is a light designed specially for police bikes or something like that i would rather not use it because that would just be giving them an excuse to harass me.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gharddog03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    336

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: androgen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    901
    Quote Originally Posted by Gharddog03 View Post
    oh i see. that's cool. but it doens't seem to be bike specific - as such, i doubt it would have the qualities we look in bike lights such as compact, light weight, waterproof, with included battery, charger and mounting hardware.

    i'm sure some of them could be converted for bike use by a DIYer but i'm not a DIYer.

    but yes - police and ambulance lights are sort of the benchmark - they catch your attention even during the day ! and while they are quite ridiculously bright at night they aren't really blinding in the same sense as driving against the sun at sunset is. unfortunately police and ambulance lights have something we can't have on a bike - and that's surface area. by spreading the light over greater area they can create brighter lights that still aren't painful to look at.

Similar Threads

  1. Tracer 2 - RP23 sweet spot
    By Danish Dynamite in forum Intense
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 10-27-2013, 03:05 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-02-2013, 06:51 PM
  3. Sweet spot for front fork travel Carbine SL
    By Hobine in forum Intense
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 09-02-2013, 02:25 PM
  4. Is there a "sweet spot" for a FS 29er wheelbase?
    By savechief in forum 29er Bikes
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-20-2012, 05:29 PM
  5. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-30-2010, 11:39 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •