Let me share my first impressions of the 2013 upgrade for Wilma after a short ride yesterday.
There are some good and some bad news. The good news is that this lens has the best beam for a helmet light I've ever seen - it is bright, has a huge hotspot, and a uniform beam.
Also, this is the light to get if you ride a lot of fireroads or "schotters", and ride them fast, you can tell that it was designed with the Alps in mind.
The bad news is that for the handlebar, it is pretty much like the previous upgrade. One trick I found is to use the light on the highest setting even during climbs - this makes the light spill just bright enough so that combined with a light on the helmet you can see what's on the side. The lower modes somehow look noticeably dim and hard on the eyes. Except for singletrack, where you can get by with limited brightness.
All in all, if you use your Wilma on the helmet, definitely get this upgrade. If not - well, I'm not sure its worth it. Go for L&M instead :-)
Took a break for a while and now it is time to dig out the old lights again. I still have my Tesla (love the beam pattern for the helmet) and the original Betty (upgraded once) with the remote switch...a feature I love. I think I'll keep an eye on the new stuff but those two will get me through any trail ride and several hours.
I see some of the older light guys have gone out of business. Most notable is as of today- Turbocat is done. Too bad, since they had some high-quality lights. Oddly, I still prefer the color of halogens. I should grab one just for nostalgic reasons.
Re: Some Lupine news
What lumen numbers do the new upgrades put out?
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I received my 4500 lumen Betty R yesterday and did one test ride last night. The full brightness is impressive, but seems to produce a _lot_ of heat. The lamphead automatically drops the brightness quite aggressively when it overheats. It happened quite frequently in +14C and easy pace. When I took my helmet off, the power had dropped two steps down from the max (4500->2900lm). Btw, all the modes use just the six outer leds. The Center-led can be only enabled in some kind of ultra low power mode. I think the reason for this is the high heat output. And then about the mount options... My old 2011 Betty was nice because it had a 31.8 rubber band. Thus it was very easy to switch it from helmet to handlebar. I had the helmet mount permanently on helmet for winter season. The new Betty requires hex key to switch mounts. And handlebar mounts (for lamphead and remote) are not included even though the lightset costs 850 euros! I think this is a bit cheap from Lupine...
So to sum it up, I like the 4500 lumen output, smartcore battery, but the heat and mounting issues are a slight let down. And the center-led seems a bit useless?
it's funny i was thinking about how they could get even cooling to all the LEDs when the outer ones are so close to heatsink and the middle one is so far. it turns out - they can't.
Originally Posted by mehukatti
on my Light & Motion Seca there are 6 LEDs and all of them are same distance from the heatsink - ZERO distance. it doesn't step down at all even at standstill in summer heat. less than half the price of Betty and engineering that is at least twice as good.
the Betty essentially uses the same cooling as all the $30 Chinese lights. i was wondering how were they going to get all that extra output without a better cooling system ? turns out - they can't.
i just keep losing more and more respect for Lupine. how could they go even lower ? maybe they should start publishing Chinese lumens.
i still have faith in German engineering though because of Busch & Muller lights.
thank you for your review !
Lupine needs to get a clue and just copy the L&M Seca design.
Light & Motion could dial in the same Lumens into the Seca as Lupine does into Betty, and it would have been a much better light - lighter and with better beam pattern. the reason L&M doesn't want to do this is because then they would need to double the battery size. even at current drive levels the battery is already the limiting factor in the Seca system so they just didn't see the point of driving the LEDs any harder ...
you see the whole stepping down thing is good for being able to publish big lumens, but unless you double the battery size you could end up in the dark. on the other hand just because you double the battery size ( and cost, and weight ) doesn't mean you actually get ANY extra light output because there may not be enough cooling.
in other words stepping down introduces an element of UNPREDICTABILITY into your battery life calculations. when i start a ride with Seca i KNOW how long my battery will last because i know the light will not be stepping up and down by itself.
Light & Motion designed a system with low cost, compact, lightweight battery and predictable battery run time. Lupine designed a system that is expensive, has a huge heavy battery and unpredictable run time, for which they compensated with all those battery diagnostic tools.
Basically lupine took a flawed design ( poor heat sinking ) and then tried to compensate for it by increasing complexity of electronics and algorithms which only created a bigger, heavier, more expensive system without making it better.
Light and Motion took a good design ( all LEDs mounted directly to heatsink ) and they didn't have to do anything else because that's all you really need. as a result the system is light and cheap and produces the same amount of usable light.
this is what you get when you buy on fictional numbers instead of analyzing the design.
back to the drawing board Lupine ...
Seca is only 2000 lumens unless I'm missing something. Is there a Seca that is more powerful than this? I thought I heard there was a 3600 lumen on the way, but even that would be pretty much even up with the new Betty.
Lupine has no issues cooling 2000 lumens either (actually 2800 or 2400 lumens for that matter) in the Wilma. You can't compare the Betty at 4500 lumens to the Seka at 2000.
I guess I'm a bit of a Lupine Fanboy. The lightsets are extremely well made and almost every aspect is properly thought out. I think it might just be a physical fact that a lamphead of this size is not able to cool down six leds at 45W without cold enough outside temperature or high airflow? The heat fins on rear of the lamphead seem to be bigger than in old Betty, so I think they did the best they could with the form factor? Atleast the good thing is that it will be good for warming up hands next winter in icy and snowy conditions. :)
I think I will buy the handlebar mounts anyway. I have a Salsa Warbird for road/gravel riding and would like to have the lamphead on the handlebar. And I want to get the remote closer to the grip on my NomadC. The velcro strap thing isn't very good for that.
they figured that most people ride in the dark in winter, and most people only need maximum output when going fast, so to save weight they only gave the light enough cooling for those conditions, and then they electronically limited power for all other conditions.
Originally Posted by mehukatti
this would be a perfectly valid solution if they were more upfront about it. does it say anywhere in their marketing material that the rated lumens are only accessible when going downhill in winter ? i don't think so.
if they rated the light at 3,000 Lumen Typical, 4500 Lumen Max then i would say AWESOME 3,000 Lumen light !
but they knew if they rated it at 3,000 Lumens people would say wait a minute - i can get two 1,500 Lumen lights for $200 each, why should i pay $1,000 for a 3,000 Lumen light ?
they needed the 4,500 lumen number to wow people into thinking DAAYUM ! ! ! Lupine Uber Alles ! who cares how much it costs ! this is L U P I N E ! ! !
but in doing so they have in effect become a Chinese light maker because they published dishonest specs.
if they want to be a leader they need to lead. Light & Motion led the way when they started publishing honest Lumen ratings. my L&M Seca is rated 1700 Lumens by L&M but measured 1800 by MTBR. that's honesty.
If Lupine wants to lead, considering their lights step down more than just about any other lights then they need to start publishing the Lumen ratings ALONG WITH THE CONDITIONS FOR TESTING.
let them publish 3 lumen ratings in fact:
worst case: ( 25C, 5 MPH ) - let's say 2,500 Lumens
typical: ( 15C, 10 MPH ) - let's say 3,500 Lumens
optimal: ( 10C, 15 MPH ) - 4,500 Lumens
then i would say WOW, Lupine is the best - nobody else publishes specs this detailed.
but as it is i can only say - well what is the actual difference between a $1,000 Lupine and a $30 Chinese light ? both have a bunch of XMLs, an round metal housing, and exaggerated Lumen ratings. one simply costs 30X more than the other.
otherwise why use heat sinks at all ? just measure the light output while pouring liquid nitrogen over the LED and publish that spec. why not ?
and besides, both Lupine and Light & Motion sell their light heads also for hiking and other non-biking uses. how is a Hiker supposed to keep 15 mph pace ? does Lupine de-rate the Betty when it is sold for non-bike use ? i don't think so.
And you can get a light that puts out 4500 lumens - under any conditions - exactly where?
As remote diagnose, I would say you are sanguinic? I think you just jump to and broadcast conclusions wihout the slightest evidence, led alone by your "instinct".
As John80 said, where do you find lumen outputs on this level in bikelights without a built in dim_down_due_to_heat regulation stepping in? I am ready to listen to reason ...
But in the meanwhile you've already come to the "fact" Lupine being on a "chinese level". *rubs eyes*, well then ...
That said, even Lupine does not make a secret of its dimming and "need" of motion, you can read it in every manual also online, was mentioned already in the very first Betty with 900 lumen, where in fact there was almost no situation in which she dimmed down. I've an old Betty 22W with 1900 lumen and never encountered that she dimmed down, or at least I did not realize. So according to your crude logic now I am entitled to shout "hurra, the best light ever, top engineering etc. etc. etc."?
And as for "honest" lumen, they are honest like the ones of L&M are, with a standard measurement according to ANSI or something of this sort, measuring within the first 15-30 seconds (or similar), in this matter you're just writing BS ...
And I am curious to see how your venerated L&M will handle heat&dimming in their *plastic* housing in the new announced 3600 lumen Seca ...
Same on you new Busch & Müller thread. You've never seen the new IQ2 lights, but just 2 pictures 50/70 lux, of which I personally have some doubts if they've used the same camera settings, seems to me to be too good to be true, nevertheless you already declare them as "top light", "best engineering" etc. etc. etc.. I mean please, this just shows us you're somewhat prone to instant enthusiasm ...
Congrats. I agree the center LED is indeed useless, it's reduced to a gimmick, and just produced more discussions than use, they better would have just dropped it. As for the mount, the solution also does not convince me entirely. You're now indeed able to put the light nicely in front of the stem, but as for usability not really an improvement over the older standard mount with O-ring IMO.
And it's a point I've also criticized, and it's not new. On quite elevated price level sometimes they show a petty, pedantic avarice in details ruining the whole picture. Of course the just shold include the standard mount as goodie. I remember my Tesla, they were not able to include 2 O-rings for both standard and oversize bars for the mount, no, you had to write an email which O-Ring you needed, ridicolous ..., same like first they did not include a mount for the remote of the betty R.
As for "temperatures and dimming", the only published detail was for the previous Betty R 3600 lumen, stating it would not dim down for motion with 25 kilometers/hour and 20 degree C.: ? Thema anzeigen - Betty R
funny you mention Seca 3600 because of course that is what i use. by that i mean i use two Seca 1700 on my helmet and as each measured 1800 on MTBR test i am in effect running a Seca 3600 - except it doesn't step down and the body doesn't even get warm to the touch. combined with superior beam pattern my light puts down about 50% more usable light than his Betty does.
Originally Posted by CHnuschti
even a single Seca 1700 on the MTBR tunnel beam shot already outperformed 3600 Lumen Betty, before Betty even stepped down - two Secas would easily take a stepped down "4500" Lumen Betty if MTBR had two of them to test.
i paid $638 DELIVERED for my two Seca 1700 - so about half as much as he paid for his Betty, which isn't even as good.
but whatever - it's your money - waste it any way you like.
the plastic body of the Seca is an awesome feature - it produces a lightweight unit that is comfortable to the touch ( not hot ) while the LEDs are mounted directly to heatsink within millimeters from the fins, whereas on Betty the heat must travel more than an inch through a labyrinth before it even gets to the fins.
i owned a Lupine before - i returned it for refund - i didn't really like anything about it. it claimed a lot of lumens for its size - that's about it. it was too hot to the touch, and the beam pattern was ugly. the cable plug was the worst i have ever seen and the charger was 10 times the size of the light itself. it did look cute however ( the light, not the charger ).
whatever as i said knock yourself out - buy the Betty LOL. i don't care.
as for what John said - he's on my ignore list so i have no idea who he is talking to.
Lupine is a sad company that survives only on having the highest lumens and the highest prices - which combined give it an aura of "eliteness" which causes hordes of Fanboys to buy them.
reality is that a single "4500" lumen light that steps down to 2900 has no advantage over two "1700" Lumen lights which deliver an honest 3600 lumens combined, and with a better beam pattern, for half the price.
now if he had TWO bettys on his helmet ... then i would acknowledge defeat :)
look. Seca is a better design than Betty PERIOD. Seca is the best light ever designed, ever in human history. Betty is just another me-too bad Chinese light - there are hundreds like it - and there is nothing special about this Chinese light except that it's made in Germany - but it's still Chinese - because it uses the same design as 90% of the Chinese lights do. on the other hand NO OTHER LIGHT uses the design that Seca uses.
the only difference between Lupine and some kind of ChinaSuperLuxSevenStar light is that Lupine steps down, and the Chinese lights are already stepped down. that's about it. both claim 4,000 Lumens.
i'm sorry that you people think if its expensive it must be good even when it uses the same design as $30 chinese lights ...
in fact $30 chinese lights use BETTER design than Betty - because at least they use reflectors ...
look. $80G Nissan GTR beat $150G Porsche 911 Turbo, $150G 911 Turbo beat most $300,000 Supercars, and then both Chevy Corvette and Dodge Viper beat Nissan GTR ... why ? because better engineering is better engineering - it doesn't matter where it is made or how much it costs or anything else.
Light and Motion is made in California - that's the same place where Apple, Google, Tesla, NASA, DARPA etc are from. Almost everything that was invented in the last 100 years has been invented in California - things like Transistors, Internet, GPS satellites etc. the last time Germany was great was before WW2 and then US flattened it with bombs, stole all of Hitler's scientists and moved them to ... to California, where they proceeded to invent some of those things that i mentioned.
So you don't think a company from California can out-design a German company ? think whatever you want ! I'm just telling you how it is.
look i give credit where credit is due - Busch & Muller have incredibly interesting designs - i think both the IQ2 and Bing Bang are super cool. i drive a German car myself, my last car was also German. even my bathroom exhaust fan is made in Germany. my Philips Saferide is designed in Germany. i LOVE German engineering. I love Germany so much i watch German television in German language over internet from New York City BUT !
BUT Lupine still sucks. sorry.
Lupine was my FIRST light - i fell for all the hype and i wanted a German product so i got it, but now i know better because now i understand the engineering and design issues involved in making lights.
as i said, i still love Germany, but also California. i have four lights made in California - Two Seca 1700s and Two MonkeyLectric M232s and they are all awesome.
MORE LUMENS DOES NOT EQUAL BETTER DESIGN - is that really that hard to understand ?
It's an impressive crescendo indeed ... But for my taste your posts often tend to an excess of declamatory character ...
Originally Posted by androgen
Originally Posted by chnuschti
And a 3600 lumen L&M light composed of two Seca 1700 (actually makes it a 3400 lumen set up) is supposed to be competitive with a 4500 lumen single light Betty?
Where else can you get a single light 4500 lumen light? Answer: You can't, except from Lupine. And because of that, they should get a premium but apparently they don't.
Sounds to me like the Lupine is a better deal over two Seca 2000's. You don't have to wear two lights on your head, you get 500 more lumens and it's the same price as 2X Seca 2000.
From the Regrets thread:
I thought we were arguing about the Betty being overpriced....
Originally Posted by androgen
There will be NO upgrade kits for the older (pre R version) Betty models 26W, 24W etc.. since without higher wattage (like the new R's) there is almost no improvement.
? Thema anzeigen - Upgrade 2013
Re: Some Lupine news
That stinks, though I figured that since the 1850 Betty needed a driver upgrade to match the 2600. I guess I will have to stick with my 2600 Betty for a while then. I don't like the new Betty R mounting system.
Some "diffusors" / "colored filters" were announced to come for the Piko and the Piko TL (torchlight), kind of clip-on caps. Quite vague at this stage, no details were given.
Also new "stressable" plugs for the Betty R were announced.
â€¢ Thema anzeigen - wqs so lÃ¤uft
Test/Review of the new Betty R 4500 lumen in a german torchlight forum.
With some measurements, also including a simulation of motion over ventilators, with an approximately defined airflow velocity.
Some nice comparative pics included.
Lupine Betty R14 - 4500 Lumen mit Funk // Test / Messungen / Bilder //
That picture (on the site) is amazing. I thought my 1,850 Betty was impressive.
How's it going Flyer? I am still running my old Betty with the external switch that I bought in 2006. I did one upgrade to it and it is at 1,750 lumens which is still a lot of light. Surprisingly I am still using the 6.8 battery pack that it came with in 2006 and it still holds a charge just fine. Never had an issue with it or with my upgraded 1,000 lumen Wilma light I bought in 2006 either. In comparison I have a cheap magicshine that started having issues within a year which didn't surprise me. For me Lupine makes the most reliable best quality lights that I have ever used. For all the night riding I do I have definitely gotten my moneys worth out of them.
And androgen comparing Lupines to Chinese knockoffs is a really funny. Buy some Chinese lights and use them as much as I do and get back to me in 7 years and see if they are still going strong androgen. I use my Lupines for biking, hiking, whatever, rain or shine, in ice and snow and they never let me down.
Hey Maximus, it goes well...just been out of biking for a couple of years. I still have my original Betty (2008 maybe). I also upgraded it once and use the big water bottle battery pack. I sold the Wilma but kept the Tesla. I have used them for hiking and snowshoeing, as well as camping. The batteries are still 100% and I have had no problems. I am not buying the Chinese knockoffs...they are not my thing, and I don't want to be stuck in the middle of the mountains with a useless light at night. I'll keep these till I feel the need to upgrade to another Betty and maybe a Piko. For now though, they light up the night and work perfectly every time. I must say I am very tempted by the light weigh of the Piko for the helmet. However, I find the Tesla beam to be better than anything else out there. It has that L&M ACR type of beam (used the ARCs for two years) with the reflector it uses. The lighter peripheral light provides a great transition and I can see to the sides in those dark mountain forest twisty trails and tight/steep switchbacks, without turning my head much. I'll probably never sell it so I hope it never dies.
I have two 1800 Betty's I've used for two years now two to four days a week. Never a problem. You get what you pay for. I will be purchasing two forty five hundred lumen Betty's as soon as they are available. You want the best you buy Lupine. End of story.
Both my Betty & Wilma are going strong on original batteries. They are both gen1 (2007?). I'm on the waitlist for the new 4500
Originally Posted by Flyer
Well, seems we are in good company, I also still use my 22W Betty with the latest available upgrade, putting out some 1900 lumens. Using it alone on the bar on my mountainbike. And I still am almost entirely happy with it on my usual trainings started away from home. My routes are quite easy, most on cart road, kind of routes for retired people I guess. ;)
For that, definitely enough light, I don't really feel/see the need for some more powerful gear. And perfectly able to recognize in time all frogs sitting immobile on the tracks lately, even with light rain. :D
I just checked my receipts from when I bought my Lupines and it was actually 2007 and not 2006 like I initially thought. Still impressive though I think. I found some old emails between myself and Jay (Geoman) which made me remember how helpful he was when I bought my Lupines from him. I still remember receiving my first Lupine which was the Wilma and how impressed I was with it. I have nothing but good things to say about Lupine.