Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 108
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63

    The real story about inexpensive lights

    HI Guys/Gals
    It is Darryl from Cyclops Motorsports/ Adventure sports. Based out of the Pacific NW
    We have been in business since 02
    Threw the years I have used MTBR for info on developing a line of Bicycle lights. To add to our very successful Moto Based line.
    We have been trusted by the best Moto riders in the world and manufacture much of what we offer. You can check us out on any moto related forum. Customer service and satifaction is our top priority.
    After much thought and work we decided that we would put out an entry level (inexpensive) LED light. WE do not intend to compete with the higher priced lights from Niterider, Baja Designs, etc.This is a great light, but It is not the best available. Hense the price point.. We are also a BD dealer and will have the striker online soon.
    We worked with a Chinese supplier and specked the light you see below. It Has been out since July of 2010 and it was our intention to work with distributors and dealers so that we can support the local shops. We have done that, But do to some less than honest distribution issues we now find that it is best to go consumer direct..
    I about hit the floor when I saw the Gemini post . So Game on
    The manufacturing agreement was for Cyclops and Bikeray us to be the sole distributing channels in the USA
    Although you have seen another post with a similar looking light. I can guarantee you ours is different and made to ours specs. The biggest being the Hermetically sealed batteries and the fact that we are using the p7 D bin emitter.
    These are things That Cyclops specked into our production run.
    All these lights where made by Bigger Tech/ Bikeray. Anyone that says different has either copied the design or is lying. . You be the judge..
    To the dealers we have setup already. I will personally make it up to you.
    All this is not good for the shops or really for you end consumers either. But as Americans we all want more for less.
    Cyclops Adventure sports will be advertising on MTBR and has been in contact with the powers that be for some time. Look for our add to show up soon.
    We have learned our lesson here on development and will make changes in the future.
    So here is our offer
    Our complete ADV light LED kit 130.00 with Free shipping in the cont US..
    2 year warranty on the light head 1 year on the batteries.
    Last edited by off road rider; 12-06-2010 at 09:30 PM.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    129
    Looks exactly like the Gemini Titan - are you saying that is a lifted design?

  3. #3
    Phil from San Diego
    Reputation: Prexus2005's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    581
    ^^

    ... and for $130, Gemini offers a couple more items not seen in your photo, ie, head strap and hard storage box. Not saying I care about those 2 items which are just fluff.

    Will let you guys sort it out...

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,434
    For those of us a little less knowledgeable about the differences in emitters, what is the advantage of the D over the C emitter?

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by betweenrides
    Looks exactly like the Gemini Titan - are you saying that is a lifted design?
    Thats exactly what I'm saying..If they claim to be the manufactures..It certainly is possible they bought from BiggerTech.. either way they are full of crap.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: gticlay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    6,637
    I had an old Cyclops back in the day. Are you in Kent?
    "It looks flexy"

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by BlownCivic
    For those of us a little less knowledgeable about the differences in emitters, what is the advantage of the D over the C emitter?
    In a nut shell the P7 emitter will provide morel lumen's at the same amp rating.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    I had an old Cyclops back in the day. Are you in Kent?
    Yes that is us.. I imagine your talking about the original MC Halogen.. Still very popular with the snowmobile crowd.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by Prexus2005
    ^^

    ... and for $130, Gemini offers a couple more items not seen in your photo, ie, head strap and hard storage box. Not saying I care about those 2 items which are just fluff.

    Will let you guys sort it out...
    I'm sure the Gemini group are good people. Something went askew here .
    Since we had the light first there have been a few add ons. Our offer includes free shipping and backed by a known American company.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,434
    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    In a nut shell the P7 emitter will provide morel lumen's at the same amp rating.
    I'm asking about the difference between the P7 C and the P7 D emitters.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1
    I just went to the website and this light is listed for $224.95 and $9.95 shipping, NOT $130.00 and free shipping.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    9
    Ok, so I'm ready to order, do you have a code for your website?

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,322
    Quote Originally Posted by BlownCivic
    I'm asking about the difference between the P7 C and the P7 D emitters.
    The D-bin is better. Brighter and better tint. If I was choosing which of the two to buy I would buy the one with the D-bin if that is offered.

    Now about this "Who's First situation": How and the heck are we to know who is actually first with the design? Now if you have patents to the design that is a matter for the lawyers to sort out. To me it looks like it was made at the same manufacture as the Gemini. I'm sure nobody likes to have their product cloned but it happens all the time. Why not just sell the product and forget about trying to start a pissing war. Right now there are a handful of P-7 based lights out there to compete against. I say move on and just forget about it. Let the consumers sort it out. If you want to start a war let be with a price gun.

    Anyway, to me it looks like more is going on here than meets the eye. Just remember, when the MagicShine came out there also followed a bunch of other MS clones that looked just like the MS. I think this could just be a case of "What goes around, comes around".

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    The D-bin is better. Brighter and better tint. If I was choosing which of the two to buy I would buy the one with the D-bin if that is offered.

    Now about this "Who's First situation": How and the heck are we to know who is actually first with the design? Now if you have patents to the design that is a matter for the lawyers to sort out. To me it looks like it was made at the same manufacture as the Gemini. I'm sure nobody likes to have their product cloned but it happens all the time. Why not just sell the product and forget about trying to start a pissing war. Right now there are a handful of P-7 based lights out there to compete against. I say move on and just forget about it. Let the consumers sort it out. If you want to start a war let be with a price gun.

    Anyway, to me it looks like more is going on here than meets the eye. Just remember, when the MagicShine came out there also followed a bunch of other MS clones that looked just like the MS. I think this could just be a case of "What goes around, comes around".
    Thanks for answering the diff in the d anc c bin P7 emitters, I brain farted my response.
    As far as who was first, Believe what you want. as far as a pissing match then absolutely I will.Why? A deal is a Deal.. Say you purchased A large # of lights with an understanding you and 1 other would have the exclusive in the states.Everyone has worked out pricing and there is a general plan in place. Then before you get any traction, some one comes along and undercuts what you are doing in a large way..And F's up the entire Plan.
    I think you might also be a bit pissed off. This will cause our setup dealers pain.and be a tarnish on my company when we bring out our next bicycle light .
    And yes there is more behind the scenes. So you can chose a Proven US company or a Canadian start up. The choice is yours..But we will defend our Agreements wouldn't you??

  15. #15
    www.airbornemtb.org
    Reputation: nick d's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    333
    Quote Originally Posted by sd_sparky
    I just went to the website and this light is listed for $224.95 and $9.95 shipping, NOT $130.00 and free shipping.
    yup, i dont see anything for 130, this is the light shown above right?

    http://www.cyclopsadventuresports.co...products&id=96
    Quote Originally Posted by HamfisT
    I understand that engineering has value in and of itself. But in the end, it's still just a pile of aluminum tubes.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by sd_sparky
    I just went to the website and this light is listed for $224.95 and $9.95 shipping, NOT $130.00 and free shipping.
    Yes that was the Price before we had to cut out all our great dealers. Not something I take lightly... Out of respect to them, I am leaving the price on the website as is until I can personally contact them.
    By Monday afternoon it will be priced accordingly per this post.
    We will be using MTBR as a discount code That will give you the 130 and free shipping.
    In the mean time you can call 1 800 624 0278. and receive the 130 price..
    We hope to have our add up asap.. I also dont like spam

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    241
    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    So you can chose a Proven US company or a Canadian start up. The choice is yours..
    Given as how I am Canadian (as well as quite a few other forum users) being a US company isn't always seen as being an advantage. Not having to ship across the border is a nice bonus.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,309
    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    Thanks for answering the diff in the d anc c bin P7 emitters, I brain farted my response.
    As far as who was first, Believe what you want. as far as a pissing match then absolutely I will.Why? A deal is a Deal.. Say you purchased A large # of lights with an understanding you and 1 other would have the exclusive in the states.Everyone has worked out pricing and there is a general plan in place. Then before you get any traction, some one comes along and undercuts what you are doing in a large way..And F's up the entire Plan.
    I think you might also be a bit pissed off. This will cause our setup dealers pain.and be a tarnish on my company when we bring out our next bicycle light .
    And yes there is more behind the scenes. So you can chose a Proven US company or a Canadian start up. The choice is yours..But we will defend our Agreements wouldn't you??
    Take Cat's advice and tone down the indignation.
    The original rip off occured when these Lupines clones started showing up.
    There is a big market looking to buy lights and with the magic shine sort of out of the picture currently you have a good shot at picking up some of that demand.
    Worry about things the consumers actually care about.
    1) Light
    2) Price
    3) Customer service
    4) Warranty
    5) US Company standing behind product warranty.

    That's all you need. The rest is internal issues/drama that your company has to deal with. Airing that in public will just put off consumers.

  19. #19
    Gemini Lights
    Reputation: Gemini Lights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    189
    Hello from Gemini,

    Off course we are watching. Just to let you know that Gemini Industries does not supply this retailer. We know exactly the manufacturer of this light and all the background story.

    Other than that a PM has already been send to the retailer and I will take personal care that we will communicate with each other very soon.

    Greets,
    Vag


    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Take Cat's advice and tone down the indignation.
    The original rip off occured when these Lupines clones started showing up.
    There is a big market looking to buy lights and with the magic shine sort of out of the picture currently you have a good shot at picking up some of that demand.
    Worry about things the consumers actually care about.
    1) Light
    2) Price
    3) Customer service
    4) Warranty
    5) US Company standing behind product warranty.

    That's all you need. The rest is internal issues/drama that your company has to deal with. Airing that in public will just put off consumers.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: SuperJETT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    540
    I have plenty of popcorn, this might get good.
    KHS
    Motobecane
    Fisher
    Kona

  21. #21
    Phil from San Diego
    Reputation: Prexus2005's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    581
    I agree with odtexas, there is a big market with people looking to purchase lights right now esp with Magicshine having issues.

    I am disappointed with Gemini in that you guys still have not answered a lot of the questions from the other thread in terms of providing manufactur info on the components and more importantly, decent beam shots of the lights.

    With the MTBR shootout going on right now, there is no excuse for your lights not to be included for review unless you are worried that it's inferior?

    So focus on MARKETING the light to us! If you believe you have a great product, back it up with performance claims/photos etc, give us an incentive to purchase at an discounted intro price, and if people are happy with the lights, word of mouth advertising from these first customers will take care of the rest. Just look at how popular MagicShine was!

    I don't know if you guys are the point person for advertising/marketing in your companies... I hope not, because I'd fire you both!

  22. #22
    Gemini Lights
    Reputation: Gemini Lights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    189
    Hey Prexus,

    Should I consider myself fired. hehe

    I think you just missed the beam shots. They are there and they are the more decent as they can be, using exactly the specifications that mtbr.com uses for their shootouts.

    As for the techs we still need to post about the batteries. We did not do it all this time because we were improving our batery pack even more, Really soon news about batteries will be posted. Do I miss something more?

    We are going to be in the shootout

    Greets
    Vag

    Quote Originally Posted by Prexus2005
    I agree with odtexas, there is a big market with people looking to purchase lights right now esp with Magicshine having issues.

    I am disappointed with Gemini in that you guys still have not answered a lot of the questions from the other thread in terms of providing manufactur info on the components and more importantly, decent beam shots of the lights.

    With the MTBR shootout going on right now, there is no excuse for your lights not to be included for review unless you are worried that it's inferior?

    So focus on MARKETING the light to us! If you believe you have a great product, back it up with performance claims/photos etc, give us an incentive to purchase at an discounted intro price, and if people are happy with the lights, word of mouth advertising from these first customers will take care of the rest. Just look at how popular MagicShine was!

    I don't know if you guys are the point person for advertising/marketing in your companies... I hope not, because I'd fire you both!

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: znomit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,877
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJETT
    I have plenty of popcorn, this might get good.
    Indeed.

    Same deal as the MS, resellers claiming they exclusively sell a higher grade product. Probably come out of the same factory.
    Do the batteries catch fire?

    Undercutting your own retailers ...
    ps Cyclops you need to edit your advertising to say "900 lumens LED" rather than "provides 900 lumen's of High Intensity light " because there is a big difference.


    ps, same light available in NZ for 110US$ since april
    http://www.glowormlites.co.nz/product.htm


  24. #24
    www.hahntronix.com
    Reputation: mhahn@hvc.rr.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    252
    off road rider,

    Feel free to vent about how you got hozed by China, I'm about to.

    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    Say you purchased A large # of lights with an understanding you and 1 other would have the exclusive in the states.Everyone has worked out pricing and there is a general plan in place. Then before you get any traction, some one comes along and undercuts what you are doing in a large way..And F's up the entire Plan.
    I think you might also be a bit pissed off.
    Well if you substitute the sentence about buying a large number of lights and a marketing understanding with "Say you spent several thousands of dollars and many hundreds of hours designing and engineering a high quality bike light that would sell for less than all the big brands." you could be describing my hobby business (www.hahntronix.com) for the last couple years. Or the hobby businesses of many folks who shared ideas on the DIY lighting forum: http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=124

    Welcome to Amerikan Kapitalism meets Chinese Kapitalism (course number 101)! Boy does it suck. No pesky intellectual property laws or worries about product liability for the manufacturer, lots of problems for the distributor (search for some of the MagicShine battery recall threads on these forums for an example of a distributor who got hozed), and impossible competition pricing for manufacturers based outside China.

    Your light is a better Chinese copy of a cheap Chinese copy of the German designed Tesla (that sounds like a line about Walther 22 caliber pistols from William Gibson's "Neuromancer"). Which makes your complaining about your design being ripped off seem a bit interesting

    I think odtexas missed a couple of things from his list of things bikers care about (I'm not saying my concerns need to be numbers 1, 2 and 3, but they should be on the list):

    1 - quality
    Lights should last more than a couple of seasons. I suspect you are using a variant of the original MagicShine driver. If not, please disregard the rest of this point. If you are using a LED that can run 50000 hours, it should last several years, if not a couple generations. If you want the advice of some professional electrical engineers on how to make your headlight electronics suck less, contact some of the folks in the DIY forum who did the original dissection of the MagicShine (full disclosure: I posted on that forum, if you don't want to hire me, I'm OK with that). I'm sure you can find somebody who will help you upgrade the stock you have on hand to make it last longer than a couple of seasons.

    2 - safety
    Build lighting systems that don't burst into flames. Even if it only happens to a very small percentage of users, that's not acceptable. That's why I sell NiMh batteries and smart UL approved NiMh chargers with my lights. NiMh got a bad rap after people tried treating them like NiCads. NiCads handle abuse and just keep working. Early NiMh lighting systems just sold stupid chargers with the batteries that fried the cells if you forgot to unplug them. NiMh batteries die if you overcharge them or over-discharge them. That's why I sell a smart charger with my lights. The charger is designed to detect when the battery is fully charged and then stop. I'm happy to tell folks how to buy or build a Li-Ion battery to use with my lights if that's what they want, but I'm not interested in selling something that can bankrupt me if I get shipped substandard parts. I really think you should reconsider selling inexpensive Li-Ion cells with your lights. At the price point you are selling your lights for you are probably only getting the inexpensive Li-Ion cells (I could be wrong, but I've seen the MagicShine 500 quantity pricing brochure... I can't buy parts to build a Li-Ion battery and charging system from legitimate US distributors in quantity 10000 for what they sell a whole light with battery system for). In my opinion, even the expensive name brand Li-Ion batteries are more of a risk than they are worth.

    3- honesty
    Your D bin P7 lights that you claim to be 900 lumens are probably closer to 770 lumens if measured with a fairly expensive lumen integrating sphere meter. It's OK to claim 900 lumens if you at least say this is a theoretical maximum output assuming perfect 100% efficient optics, but you should at least de-rate the actual output to an 85% or so level if you don't do the actual measurement.


    I've abandoned the low-end sub 600 lumen market to the Chinese. They can sell complete systems for less than it costs a US manufacturer to buy the parts (even in large quantity). I've decided to focus on higher power lights or lights that fill a niche: very light-weight, more user options. a wider variety of power sources, etc.

    I'm sorry if it seems like I'm venting at you, but you are not the only person burned by the Chinese concept of free enterprise. I wish you luck trying to sell your lights.

    If my post seems harsh on all Chinese companies, I apologize. Some provide excellent service and products. I know. I've dealt with Chinese companies who've built products I've designed. Most have been honest and fair. But the ones who promise a product at a price that seems too good to be true ... well, buyer beware.

    Mark
    Nimium est melior!

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,309
    Quote Originally Posted by mhahn@hvc.rr.com

    I think odtexas missed a couple of things

    2 - safety
    You have seen how I make my lights right? My definition of safety is somewhat skewed.



    But you do make excellent points in all seriousness.

  26. #26
    www.hahntronix.com
    Reputation: mhahn@hvc.rr.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    252
    odtexas,

    I was commenting on safety for the customer, not the poor SOB who actually built the light.

    You should really look at sliding compound miter saws for some of the cuts you make. My understanding is the blade pushes the piece against the fence, not away from it. But I'm an electrical engineer, so what do I know about the mechanical stuff

    Mark
    Nimium est melior!

  27. #27
    Phil from San Diego
    Reputation: Prexus2005's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    581
    Vag, show me links to the beam shots that is not:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Rides
    Hello,

    I was in the park last Friday and made (as promised) some Beamshots of the light. The settings of the camera where the same as in the MTBR test (http://www.mtbr.com/trailbeamcomparisoncrx.aspx) which means:
    Camera Settings: Setting-full manual, ISO-100, Exposure-6 seconds, Aperture-F4.0, Focus-Manual, White Balance-Daylight
    I am not sure of the camera model yet but I will ask the photographer and get back to you.

    Waiting for opinions

    " width="549">

    ...not too bad but photo too small and there is no side by side with another light for reference.

    or

    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Rides
    Just thought to share some photos posted by somebody who tried our product already.

    http://sk8t.pinkbike.com/album/Gemini-Titan-LED-light/
    ...these are just horrible photos.

    So.. did I miss anything?

    The 2011 light shootout has been going on for at least a couple of weeks now, I do not see Gemini mentioned anywhere. Going to be in there "soon" is not good enough. And I am tired of all the "will get back to you soon" type replies from "New Magicshine Competitor for Hong Kong New Magicshine Competitor from Hong Kong

    I took my time and offered ideas for you to better market your product and this is what I get?

    Yeah, You're fired!

    off road rider,

    Now, if you are smart, get your lights to Francois for the shootout review/beam shot comparison ASAP!

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,787
    I pass on the companies that get into public pissing matches.

  29. #29
    Gemini Lights
    Reputation: Gemini Lights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    189
    Hello,

    For your information a Light is already in its way to Francois.

    Regarding the photos. From my experience in forums posting big files is not user friendly.
    Big photos will be posted tonight.

    Regarding the other shooting, which I suppose that the forum comment "this is just horrible photos" was reffering it was made from somebody who bought our light. This guy also included some photos of the packaging and product in his profile and I thought it would be great to share with the forum.

    Regarding comparison, I am sorry but this is not my job. This is the job of other stakeholders such as independant reviewers. What is my job is to present our product and to feed with information this forum and other mediums as well.

    You have a point for the "get back to you soon". Unfortunately you will have to be few more hours patient. Already some of the "get back to you soon" issues are addressed, such as the full refund and more are coming.

    On the other hand I do believe that Gemini presence in this forum is very honest. Yes, in some cases our responses are not immediate but that happens because we really work on your reccomendations and follow them up.

    Being the manufacturer is a great responsibility. All our responses should be precise and be a result of hard work.

    Thank you and all who contributed for your feedback and ideas till now. Be sure we are following them up.

    greets
    Vag
    On behalf of the Gemini Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Prexus2005
    Vag, show me links to the beam shots that is not:



    ...not too bad but photo too small and there is no side by side with another light for reference.

    or


    ...these are just horrible photos.

    So.. did I miss anything?

    The 2011 light shootout has been going on for at least a couple of weeks now, I do not see Gemini mentioned anywhere. Going to be in there "soon" is not good enough. And I am tired of all the "will get back to you soon" type replies from "New Magicshine Competitor for Hong Kong New Magicshine Competitor from Hong Kong

    I took my time and offered ideas for you to better market your product and this is what I get?

    Yeah, You're fired!

    off road rider,

    Now, if you are smart, get your lights to Francois for the shootout review/beam shot comparison ASAP!

  30. #30
    BBW
    BBW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BBW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,183
    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Take Cat's advice and tone down the indignation.
    The original rip off occured when these Lupines clones started showing up.
    There is a big market looking to buy lights and with the magic shine sort of out of the picture currently you have a good shot at picking up some of that demand.
    Worry about things the consumers actually care about.
    1) Light
    2) Price
    3) Customer service
    4) Warranty
    5) US Company standing behind product warranty.

    That's all you need. The rest is internal issues/drama that your company has to deal with. Airing that in public will just put off consumers.
    +1
    BBW. MS, RD

  31. #31
    May the Force be with you
    Reputation: norcalchico's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,036
    [
    I just got my light and plan on a ride tomorrow. I will post beam shots. Ill try to post on here but I have a blog that you can check out the lights on also.
    So far they look really good to me. I own a niterider trinewt and the side by side comparison the Gemini Titan is a lot brighter.



    QUOTE=Prexus2005]Vag, show me links to the beam shots that is not:



    ...not too bad but photo too small and there is no side by side with another light for reference.

    or


    ...these are just horrible photos.

    So.. did I miss anything?

    The 2011 light shootout has been going on for at least a couple of weeks now, I do not see Gemini mentioned anywhere. Going to be in there "soon" is not good enough. And I am tired of all the "will get back to you soon" type replies from "New Magicshine Competitor for Hong Kong New Magicshine Competitor from Hong Kong

    I took my time and offered ideas for you to better market your product and this is what I get?

    Yeah, You're fired!

    off road rider,

    Now, if you are smart, get your lights to Francois for the shootout review/beam shot comparison ASAP![/QUOTE]

  32. #32
    Its got what plants crave
    Reputation: Jim311's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,934
    There are some large claims being thrown around in this thread.
    Ocala Mountain Bike Association - www.omba.org

  33. #33
    Goats Rule!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    311

  34. #34
    banned
    Reputation: random walk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,666
    ^^^ A little too throwy. But you'd never get stuck behind a slowpoke with one of those on your bars.

  35. #35
    www.airbornemtb.org
    Reputation: nick d's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    333
    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    +1

    +2

    all the bad blood doesnt make me want to buy a light from either company.

    whoever takes the high road, stands behind the product, and has competitive prices will come out ahead in the end.
    Quote Originally Posted by HamfisT
    I understand that engineering has value in and of itself. But in the end, it's still just a pile of aluminum tubes.

  36. #36
    Do It Yourself
    Reputation: Homebrew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    5,721
    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    Customer service and satifaction is our top priority.
    ...
    The biggest being the Hermetically sealed batteries and the fact that we are using the p7 D bin emitter.
    ...
    Our complete ADV light LED kit 130.00 with Free shipping in the cont US..
    2 year warranty on the light head 1 year on the batteries.
    Seems like a good offering. As some of the others said, focus on the positive benefits of your product to the customer and save the drama for your mama. Make sure you have good safe batteries, upgrade the spec with the proper components in the driver, and get in the MTBR Shootout. If your product proves favorable, it will develop a good following. But do note that you should have been here a few months ago if you wanted to establish yourself this season. Anyway, best of luck...
    Long Live Long Rides

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    1,309
    Quote Originally Posted by nick d

    whoever takes the high road, stands behind the product, and has competitive prices will come out ahead in the end.

    Isn't Geomangear known for this sort of thing..................

  38. #38
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Isn't Geomangear known for this sort of thing..................
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  39. #39
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,110
    All these new lights look like a Magicshine shell game to me.

    What will the MTBR threads look like this time next year?... I wonder.

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    26
    One very common practices in certain factories in certain parts of world (you can guess) is to have special "nighttime" production runs. In the day they manufacture to spec and under QA/QC and licensing control and oversight of the contracting company. At night, they make the counterfeit parts, often from components rejected from the QA process in the day.

    Those handbags you see in Manhattan sold on street that look just like the designer bags, well guess what? In some cases they ARE the same bags.

    This may be what some people are seeing with some of these products.

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    2,787
    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    All these new lights look like a Magicshine shell game to me.

    What will the MTBR threads look like this time next year?... I wonder.
    I also think it will be the "same song, second verse". But will these guys step up to the plate on the batteries at that time? They don't strike me as being the type.

  42. #42
    NWS
    NWS is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,427
    Quote Originally Posted by rootmaster
    One very common practices in certain factories in certain parts of world (you can guess) is to have special "nighttime" production runs. In the day they manufacture to spec and under QA/QC and licensing control and oversight of the contracting company. At night, they make the counterfeit parts, often from components rejected from the QA process in the day.
    There's also common practice when dealing with factories in all parts of the world where a manufacturer works with a designer to develop a product to the designer's specifications... Typically this is done with a promise from the manufacturer to produce the new design exclusively for that designer. Designing products takes time and money, and that exclusivity gives the designer a reason to believe that if they do a good job, they can charge a premium for the product, in order to recover that initial investment.

    In certain parts of the world (you can guess) it's fairly common for the manufacturer to violate that exclusivity agreement. So now the designer who made that investment now finds himself competing with random third-party resellers who have no up-front investment to recover. Since the development costs were paid by someone else, these new resellers can make a reasonable profit with very little markup. The actual designer then has to lower his prices in order to sell the product that he designed, leaving him with little or no hope of ever recovering that initial investment.

    I'm sure it's especially painful when that designer has spent lots of time setting up a distribution network, promising the resellers in his own network that they can retail the product for $X, where X = initial production cost + amortized development cost + designer's profit margin + retailer profit margin. Because when a third-party retailer starts advertising the same product for production cost + retailer margin, the designer and his distribution partners are pretty much screwed.

    I've watched it happen with aftermarket car parts.

    Sure sounds like it just happened again with bike lights.
    Last edited by NWS; 12-05-2010 at 12:26 AM.

  43. #43
    NWS
    NWS is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,427
    Quote Originally Posted by gmcttr
    I also think it will be the "same song, second verse". But will these guys step up to the plate on the batteries at that time? They don't strike me as being the type.
    I gotta say, if Geoman sends me a new battery pack, I'm going to be doing business with them for a long time. They're in a position where the easy (and maybe even sensible) thing to do would be to dissolve the company and/or go into bankruptcy. And I wouldn't fault them one bit for taking that exit - they simply got screwed by their battery supplier.

    So, if they pull off this recall-and-replace thing, I hope they follow up by expanding their product line, just so I can have more opportunities to do business with them in the future.

  44. #44
    www.airbornemtb.org
    Reputation: nick d's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    333
    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Isn't Geomangear known for this sort of thing..................
    exaclty, thats why i got my 2 light sets from him
    Quote Originally Posted by HamfisT
    I understand that engineering has value in and of itself. But in the end, it's still just a pile of aluminum tubes.

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Rakuman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    838
    Quote Originally Posted by NWS
    I gotta say, if Geoman sends me a new battery pack, I'm going to be doing business with them for a long time. They're in a position where the easy (and maybe even sensible) thing to do would be to dissolve the company and/or go into bankruptcy. And I wouldn't fault them one bit for taking that exit - they simply got screwed by their battery supplier.

    So, if they pull off this recall-and-replace thing, I hope they follow up by expanding their product line, just so I can have more opportunities to do business with them in the future.
    +1
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  46. #46
    Dirt Deviant
    Reputation: savagemann's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3,693
    Quote Originally Posted by NWS
    I gotta say, if Geoman sends me a new battery pack, I'm going to be doing business with them for a long time. They're in a position where the easy (and maybe even sensible) thing to do would be to dissolve the company and/or go into bankruptcy. And I wouldn't fault them one bit for taking that exit - they simply got screwed by their battery supplier.

    So, if they pull off this recall-and-replace thing, I hope they follow up by expanding their product line, just so I can have more opportunities to do business with them in the future.

    +1,000,000
    Look, whatever happens, don't fight the mountain.

  47. #47
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    Just to give a bit of props to GeoMan, I had a light fail AND the very same night I learned about the 'battery issue' so I was kinda worried - couldn't find my Multi-meter to diagnose if it was a battery or not...

    Long story-short; found the MM, determined it wasn't the Batt., e-mailed GM, next day receive e-mail saying new head-unit shipped immediately - received Head-Unit today - 3 days after e-mail...(mind you, I had not even sent the old one back yet)
    Nice work GeoMan
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  48. #48
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Gotta stick with Geoman myself .

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: SuperJETT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    540
    It happens in the US as well all the time. In the composite world, it's very easy to take a fiberglass or carbon fiber part that someone else took the time to develop and build, splash a mold of it and start pumping out the same part yourself without the development time/cost. People do it all the time unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by NWS
    There's also common practice when dealing with factories in all parts of the world where a manufacturer works with a designer to develop a product to the designer's specifications... Typically this is done with a promise from the manufacturer to produce the new design exclusively for that designer. Designing products takes time and money, and that exclusivity gives the designer a reason to believe that if they do a good job, they can charge a premium for the product, in order to recover that initial investment.

    In certain parts of the world (you can guess) it's fairly common for the manufacturer to violate that exclusivity agreement. So now the designer who made that investment now finds himself competing with random third-party resellers who have no up-front investment to recover. Since the development costs were paid by someone else, these new resellers can make a reasonable profit with very little markup. The actual designer then has to lower his prices in order to sell the product that he designed, leaving him with little or no hope of ever recovering that initial investment.

    I'm sure it's especially painful when that designer has spent lots of time setting up a distribution network, promising the resellers in his own network that they can retail the product for $X, where X = initial production cost + amortized development cost + designer's profit margin + retailer profit margin. Because when a third-party retailer starts advertising the same product for production cost + retailer margin, the designer and his distribution partners are pretty much screwed.

    I've watched it happen with aftermarket car parts.

    Sure sounds like it just happened again with bike lights.
    KHS
    Motobecane
    Fisher
    Kona

  50. #50
    NWS
    NWS is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,427
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJETT
    It happens in the US as well all the time. In the composite world, it's very easy to take a fiberglass or carbon fiber part that someone else took the time to develop and build, splash a mold of it and start pumping out the same part yourself without the development time/cost. People do it all the time unfortunately.
    Yeah, and Chinese manufacturers have even cloned entire automobiles that way! But when your overseas manufacturing "partner" does the same thing, they don't even have to build new tooling to rip you off. And the fact that they agreed to exclusivity in the beginning just adds to the chagrin.

    Some designers/developers will contract with different manufacturers for different parts, and then do final assembly in the US. That way, none of the individual manufacturers has anything that can be re-sold on its own. It's extra hassle though, and it's still not a guarantee.

    I get the impression that the Chinese courts don't really care if local manufacturers rip off foreign product developers. Seems like a scary place to do business.

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation: znomit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,877
    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    Just to give a bit of props to GeoMan, I had a light fail AND the very same night I learned about the 'battery issue' so I was kinda worried - couldn't find my Multi-meter to diagnose if it was a battery or not...

    Long story-short; found the MM, determined it wasn't the Batt., e-mailed GM, next day receive e-mail saying new head-unit shipped immediately - received Head-Unit today - 3 days after e-mail...(mind you, I had not even sent the old one back yet)
    Nice work GeoMan
    Geoman is actively encouraging/facilitating customers to keep using their MS lights even after reports of fires?

  52. #52
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Geoman is actively encouraging/facilitating customers to keep using their MS lights even after reports of fires?
    Who said I couldn't use the head-unit with another battery?
    They replaced the head and those don't catch on fire
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  53. #53
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Geoman is actively encouraging/facilitating customers to keep using their MS lights even after reports of fires?




    The source of the fires is in the battery packs .

  54. #54
    the train keeps rollin
    Reputation: snowdrifter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,213
    So gr8 CS makes up for a sketchy product?
    beaver hunt

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Rakuman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    838
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter
    So gr8 CS makes up for a sketchy product?
    Show me a better and brighter light for $90 bucks, throw in killer customer service from GEOMAN and you get pretty good bang for the buck. so there has been a few bad batteries that kind of stuff happens when you try to lower the price point, I didn't expect Lupine quality for $90 bucks and you should not either, come on these are the cheapest mid lumen lights out . I'm buying a few more light heads from Geo soon and having batteries built . I rode last night using my MS light heads but with these batteries http://www.all-battery.com/li-ion186...bareleads.aspx
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  56. #56
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter
    So gr8 CS makes up for a sketchy product?


    A problem with batteries does not make for a "sketchy" product IMHO . CS after the sale along with a product that has a lot of bang for the buck seals the deal .

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    79
    It's expensive to manufacture in Germany or the US. That's why things get's "Designed in" Germany and in the US. Then manufacturers go to China to get their products produced. They hand over drawings, get a test run, then go full production of a set number of the product. Say 10.000 light heads. Most probably the manufacturer will do a 15.000 run, selling the rest on the side. They will also have the production drawings and the machinery, so it's easy to either a) redesign original item or b) just produce an identical item under different brand name.

    This is the "punishment" for doing the production in China and SHOULD be expected by the designer. Nobody should be shocked.......or angry. This is just the way it is.

    Heck, Louis Vuitton shops around for cheapest factory to produce their bags. When they find a cheaper, the old factory still has the manufacturing tools, the drawings and the skill to produce "pirate" bags. They can even get hold of "original" leather from factory's suffering under the same conditions. They just produce more then they tell the original designer. So most "pirate" bags aren't really "fake".....

  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    20
    If i missed it I apologize, anyone found a safe battery/charger replacement for the magic shine mess? since the light head seems to be okay, or is the whole garbage? Should have listened to the bike shop!
    Last edited by vchip; 12-06-2010 at 09:00 AM.

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Rakuman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    838
    Quote Originally Posted by vchip
    If i missed it I apologize, anyone found a safe battery/charger replacement for the magic shine mess? since the light head seems to be okay, or is the whole garbage? Should have listened to the bike shop!
    just buy one of these
    http://www.all-battery.com/li-ion186...bareleads.aspx
    http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?...products_id=15
    they charge just fine with the magicshine charger and then you will have a backup battery when geoman gets you your replacement
    Now go out and ride
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  60. #60
    the train keeps rollin
    Reputation: snowdrifter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,213
    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott
    A problem with batteries does not make for a "sketchy" product IMHO . CS after the sale along with a product that has a lot of bang for the buck seals the deal .

    Well I have a Magicshine, which I'm not suppose to use, and it's night riding season. So the product is shitty IMO.
    beaver hunt

  61. #61
    Long Live the Gorn!
    Reputation: bvader's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    257
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakuman
    just buy one of these
    http://www.all-battery.com/li-ion186...bareleads.aspx
    http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?...products_id=15
    they charge just fine with the magicshine charger and then you will have a backup battery when geoman gets you your replacement
    Now go out and ride
    You may have posted elsewhere but that is the bare lead version, can you point us to the connector and/or process you used to "Ride Ready" the battery

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63
    Well, after a few tall boys and a weekend to settle down, and get some riding in. I have come to the conclusion that most of you are correct. Perhaps I should not have flamed Gemini. .
    Our race winning history and commitment to high standards of customer service would have taken care of that.
    And if we needed to.. we could easily win a price war.
    What bothers me in this entire thing is that retailers like Gemini, geoman and hordes of others on Ebay etc.. (And now us) are cutting out the dealers, (we will still have dealers, just lower margins) This affects us as a nation. I dont like it and have been fighting buying parts /components and entire systems from overseas.
    I would like you all to think about that.. You want a light that sells for $80 but works like a $500 light. What will happen to the industry that you work in, when China takes over the states?? will you be in the same position that I am in now?
    All our other Higher output lights are made in America. this includes bulbs and ballast.
    About the only parts we use that are not made in the USA are the battery cells.
    (Other than this LED light and another LED product)
    And Yes high powered HIDs still kicks butt on any LED.. Just not what most MTBRs want.
    After watching the magic shine sales for the past few years,we decided that if we cant beat them, we will join them,(Not Magic shine) but still wanted to support the dealers etc..
    .We do not manufacture this light.. We did speck out some key differences..like the p7 D bin and a few other small things.
    These lights are manufactured by Bigger Technology.
    We do seal the batteries and know of no safety issues like what the magic shine lights have experienced. We have done extensive testing.These are higher quality lights all the way around.
    Anyways, Thanks for your comments good and bad I appreciate them all.
    I dont wish to continue beating this to death. I should have called the Gemini folks prior to my post. We will do what we need to and will overcome the issues of distributorship Drama..

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Rakuman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    838
    Quote Originally Posted by bvader
    You may have posted elsewhere but that is the bare lead version, can you point us to the connector and/or process you used to "Ride Ready" the battery
    Im sorry the geoman link did not work
    here is another source for the connectors
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Y-Splitter-Cable...item336277dbde
    just cut and splice one of these connectors and you are good to go
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    79
    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    And if we needed to.. we could easily win a price war.
    This perhaps suggest you make too much money on your lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    What bothers me in this entire thing is that retailers like Gemini, geoman and hordes of others on Ebay etc.. (And now us) are cutting out the dealers, (we will still have dealers, just lower margins) This affects us as a nation. I dont like it and have been fighting buying parts /components and entire systems from overseas.
    I have worked for a LBS and the main problem with my LBS at least is that they increase the price of products too much. You make more money off each light sold, but you sell less light overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    I would like you all to think about that.. You want a light that sells for $80 but works like a $500 light. What will happen to the industry that you work in, when China takes over the states?? will you be in the same position that I am in now?
    Here you are spot on, but yet again, both manufactures and retailers have increased the price to much for to long. Decrease the price by enough that purchasing online isn't so damn less expensive. But I still believe it's you the manufacturers wanting even more revenue from their products. "Hey, we can make this CHEAPER in China AND make more money"....

    Sure, something is wrong, put it's hard to put the yolk back in the egg.

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,322
    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    Well, after a few tall boys and a weekend to settle down, and get some riding in. I have come to the conclusion that most of you are correct. Perhaps I should not have flamed Gemini. .
    Our race winning history and commitment to high standards of customer service would have taken care of that.
    And if we needed to.. we could easily win a price war.
    What bothers me in this entire thing is that retailers like Gemini, geoman and hordes of others on Ebay etc.. (And now us) are cutting out the dealers, (we will still have dealers, just lower margins) This affects us as a nation. I dont like it and have been fighting buying parts /components and entire systems from overseas.
    I would like you all to think about that.. You want a light that sells for $80 but works like a $500 light. What will happen to the industry that you work in, when China takes over the states?? will you be in the same position that I am in now?

    All our other Higher output lights are made in America. this includes bulbs and ballast.
    About the only parts we use that are not made in the USA are the battery cells.
    (Other than this LED light and another LED product)
    And Yes high powered HIDs still kicks butt on any LED.. Just not what most MTBRs want.
    After watching the magic shine sales for the past few years,we decided that if we cant beat them, we will join them,(Not Magic shine) but still wanted to support the dealers etc..
    .We do not manufacture this light.. We did speck out some key differences..like the p7 D bin and a few other small things.
    These lights are manufactured by Bigger Technology.
    We do seal the batteries and know of no safety issues like what the magic shine lights have experienced. We have done extensive testing.These are higher quality lights all the way around.
    Anyways, Thanks for your comments good and bad I appreciate them all.
    I dont wish to continue beating this to death. I should have called the Gemini folks prior to my post. We will do what we need to and will overcome the issues of distributorship Drama..
    Gee, this is sad. A dealer who wants to Boo-Hoo to us folks about building and selling foreign made lights. Have you never read, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"? Did you not know how many cheap P-7 lights are actually out there floating around in internet land before you decided to sell one of your own? If not, is that our fault ( or your competitors )?

    I don't have a problem with someone who wants to hawk their product on forum. However to start crying, "FOUL" when no foul has been been proven to be committed, THAT my friend is a FOUL in and of itself in my opinion. This makes you a "finger pointer" as you try to blame others ( including the competition ) for your woes. This truely is not in the spirit of free enterprise that this forum represents ( IMO ).

    As to the lines you wrote that I underlined: As I gather from what you wrote, you are now chastising us for buying Chinese and foreign goods. In the same breath you are trying to win us over to buy from you even though you too are selling a foreign made product. The hypocrisy of your post rubs the wrong way with me. This "Pot calling the kettle black", approach simply isn't going to fly in my book. It might work in politics but very rarely in the business world.

    I wish you the best of luck with your product. Because you take the attitude that you do I don't think I would buy from you. Sorry, but that's the way I feel. I don't like it when someone tries to throw a guilt trip on me for buying the stuff that I do. I don't think you "toned down" as much as you should have. Good luck with your approach to sales. Cat.

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    Gee, this is sad. A dealer who wants to Boo-Hoo to us folks about building and selling foreign made lights. Have you never read, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"? Did you not know how many cheap P-7 lights are actually out there floating around in internet land before you decided to sell one of your own? If not, is that our fault ( or your competitors )?

    I don't have a problem with someone who wants to hawk their product on forum. However to start crying, "FOUL" when no foul has been been proven to be committed, THAT my friend is a FOUL in and of itself in my opinion. This makes you a "finger pointer" as you try to blame others ( including the competition ) for your woes. This truely is not in the spirit of free enterprise that this forum represents ( IMO ).

    As to the lines you wrote that I underlined: As I gather from what you wrote, you are now chastising us for buying Chinese and foreign goods. In the same breath you are trying to win us over to buy from you even though you too are selling a foreign made product. The hypocrisy of your post rubs the wrong way with me. This "Pot calling the kettle black", approach simply isn't going to fly in my book. It might work in politics but very rarely in the business world.

    I wish you the best of luck with your product. Because you take the attitude that you do I don't think I would buy from you. Sorry, but that's the way I feel. I don't like it when someone tries to throw a guilt trip on me for buying the stuff that I do. I don't think you "toned down" as much as you should have. Good luck with your approach to sales. Cat.
    Brother.. Ive been in the fire for a long time..I think you took me a little wrong, Probably my fault. but
    If reading this gets others to think about what they buy and if that sale supports people in thier neighborhoods, city's,and country .. Ill take that credit..Proudly..
    On that note.. Dont buy my light.. Im good with that. .I would recomend a Baja Designs Striker to you..Or how about a BikerayUSA.com product..

  67. #67
    Rolling
    Reputation: lidarman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    11,110
    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    Well, after a few tall boys and a weekend to settle down, and get some riding in. I have come to the conclusion that most of you are correct. Perhaps I should not have flamed Gemini. .
    Our race winning history and commitment to high standards of customer service would have taken care of that.
    And if we needed to.. we could easily win a price war.
    What bothers me in this entire thing is that retailers like Gemini, geoman and hordes of others on Ebay etc.. (And now us) are cutting out the dealers, (we will still have dealers, just lower margins) This affects us as a nation. I dont like it and have been fighting buying parts /components and entire systems from overseas.
    I would like you all to think about that.. You want a light that sells for $80 but works like a $500 light. What will happen to the industry that you work in, when China takes over the states?? will you be in the same position that I am in now?
    All our other Higher output lights are made in America. this includes bulbs and ballast.
    About the only parts we use that are not made in the USA are the battery cells.
    (Other than this LED light and another LED product)
    And Yes high powered HIDs still kicks butt on any LED.. Just not what most MTBRs want.
    After watching the magic shine sales for the past few years,we decided that if we cant beat them, we will join them,(Not Magic shine) but still wanted to support the dealers etc..
    .We do not manufacture this light.. We did speck out some key differences..like the p7 D bin and a few other small things.
    These lights are manufactured by Bigger Technology.
    We do seal the batteries and know of no safety issues like what the magic shine lights have experienced. We have done extensive testing.These are higher quality lights all the way around.
    Anyways, Thanks for your comments good and bad I appreciate them all.
    I dont wish to continue beating this to death. I should have called the Gemini folks prior to my post. We will do what we need to and will overcome the issues of distributorship Drama..

    FAIL.

    I would never patronize a dealer that makes a statement like this. And that you keep defending your position, literally acting like the customer is an idiot, just adds to it.

    Perhaps you should not have flamed Gemini,..Correct... but you instead flamed the mtbr customer base.

    Nice work.

  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by lidarman
    FAIL.

    I would never patronize a dealer that makes a statement like this. And that you keep defending your position, literally acting like the customer is an idiot, just adds to it.

    Perhaps you should not have flamed Gemini,..Correct... but you instead flamed the mtbr customer base.

    Nice work.
    Hows that?? Please explain how I have made you feel like an idiot??
    And how I Flamed you or The MTBR members?
    Last edited by off road rider; 12-06-2010 at 09:35 PM.

  69. #69
    Gemini Lights
    Reputation: Gemini Lights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    189
    Dear MTBR users,

    We would like to make some things clear in light of recent issues regarding BiggerTech and Gemini Industries.

    The Gemini Titan was designed and developed by Gemini Industries who contracted BiggerTech to CNC our aluminum light head and assemble our product. BiggerTech has dishonorably used our investment to make their own gains. We do have evidence that BiggerTech has used our designs without consent to produce a copy of our Titan product (a written contract and design interations up to final product).

    As we all know, copy products will almost always pop up inevitably. For this reason, we will not be disheartened and look towards the long-run to continue on improving and building our products to suit your needs. Be ensured that your feedback as consumers will be implemented. We are confident as manufacturers of the Gemini Titan that this ability sets us apart from others.

    At the same time, we are open for dialogue and possible support to investors who may have purchased one of the copies of Gemini. We understand the difficult position they may face as investments have already been made.
    Thank you for your support so far.

    On behalf of the Gemini Team,
    Vaggelis Monogyios

  70. #70
    used to be RipRoar
    Reputation: TraxFactory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 1999
    Posts
    1,991
    Lupine is looking better and better with all this BS flyin around....

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Rides
    Dear MTBR users,

    We would like to make some things clear in light of recent issues regarding BiggerTech and Gemini Industries.

    The Gemini Titan was designed and developed by Gemini Industries who contracted BiggerTech to CNC our aluminum light head and assemble our product. BiggerTech has dishonorably used our investment to make their own gains. We do have evidence that BiggerTech has used our designs without consent to produce a copy of our Titan product (a written contract and design interations up to final product).

    As we all know, copy products will almost always pop up inevitably. For this reason, we will not be disheartened and look towards the long-run to continue on improving and building our products to suit your needs. Be ensured that your feedback as consumers will be implemented. We are confident as manufacturers of the Gemini Titan that this ability sets us apart from others.

    At the same time, we are open for dialogue and possible support to investors who may have purchased one of the copies of Gemini. We understand the difficult position they may face as investments have already been made.
    Thank you for your support so far.

    On behalf of the Gemini Team,
    Vaggelis Monogyios
    Thats interesting Vag..There is quite a different story coming from the other side. that produces several different lights.Hense the entire reason for my posting.. I have learned a very important lesson on both dealing with overseas partners and Online forums..I do wish you the best.

  72. #72
    BBW
    BBW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BBW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,183
    Quote Originally Posted by RipRoar
    Lupine is looking better and better with all this BS flyin around....
    Lupine is flying WAY above this... this knock offs are just that and they will last a couple of seasons. After a while there will be no magicshine or X brand to get you your warranty because your crappy product just exploded on your camelback and Lupine will keep giving a top notch service to their users....
    Magicshines exist because people don't respect that a good company dropped tons of money doing research; they just care about themselves... someday Taiwan or whatever will take over the USA and I would like to see people whinning about it...
    You want to contribute? you don't need to spend big bucks but don't buy from the ones that steal....buy DIY, Trailed, Scar or whatever but all the guys buying cheap taiwanese crap help the cycle and create this mess.
    BBW. MS, RD

  73. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Hill-Pumper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    231
    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    Lupine is flying WAY above this... this knock offs are just that and they will last a couple of seasons. After a while there will be no magicshine or X brand to get you your warranty because your crappy product just exploded on your camelback and Lupine will keep giving a top notch service to their users....
    Magicshines exist because people don't respect that a good company dropped tons of money doing research; they just care about themselves... someday Taiwan or whatever will take over the USA and I would like to see people whinning about it...
    You want to contribute? you don't need to spend big bucks but don't buy from the ones that steal....buy DIY, Trailed, Scar or whatever but all the guys buying cheap taiwanese crap help the cycle and create this mess.
    Don't forget about Jetlites too. their A-51 is proof that a quality light can be built and sold for a reasonable price.

  74. #74
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    fcuk, I ran out of popcorn...
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Rakuman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    838
    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    fcuk, I ran out of popcorn...
    +1
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  76. #76
    mtbr member
    Reputation: znomit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,877
    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    fcuk, I ran out of popcorn...
    I switched to beer a few posts back. I figure after a six pack these guys might start to make some sense. Maybe.

    PS, The only confirmed thing here is the factory is a bit dodgy. I guess theres a good chance they'll be using cheap mismatched cells in the batteries too.

  77. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    129
    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    Lupine is flying WAY above this... this knock offs are just that and they will last a couple of seasons. After a while there will be no magicshine or X brand to get you your warranty because your crappy product just exploded on your camelback and Lupine will keep giving a top notch service to their users....
    Magicshines exist because people don't respect that a good company dropped tons of money doing research; they just care about themselves... someday Taiwan or whatever will take over the USA and I would like to see people whinning about it...
    You want to contribute? you don't need to spend big bucks but don't buy from the ones that steal....buy DIY, Trailed, Scar or whatever but all the guys buying cheap taiwanese crap help the cycle and create this mess.
    +1

    When I was looking at lights, I researched it for quite a long time. Subsisted on an old one and a good flashlight for a season. Magicshine and now this BS has no interest for me for all the problems that have come to light recently. I worked for a company that switched production overseas and saw all the issues surface with inconsistent quality, intellectual property theft and poor warranty service. There are too many good choices out there to save a few bucks on something that is not going to last. I'm not saying all is crap out there, but generally if the price is too good to be true........

  78. #78
    mtbr member
    Reputation: SuperJETT's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    540
    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    fcuk, I ran out of popcorn...
    Me too, I made a bunch back on page 1 but it went fast.

    I'm really glad now I ordered 3 flashlights from DX and will just ride with them.
    KHS
    Motobecane
    Fisher
    Kona

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    79
    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    Lupine is flying WAY above this... this knock offs are just that and they will last a couple of seasons. After a while there will be no magicshine or X brand to get you your warranty because your crappy product just exploded on your camelback and Lupine will keep giving a top notch service to their users....
    Magicshines exist because people don't respect that a good company dropped tons of money doing research; they just care about themselves... someday Taiwan or whatever will take over the USA and I would like to see people whinning about it...
    You want to contribute? you don't need to spend big bucks but don't buy from the ones that steal....buy DIY, Trailed, Scar or whatever but all the guys buying cheap taiwanese crap help the cycle and create this mess.
    Well, some of us really can't afford a Lupine battery and Magicshine is the only possible solution for night riding. In the end, it's better WITH knock-off because more people get to ride and the more serious manufacturers get solid competition to improve their products.

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    20
    Thanks i will check them out.
    Support your local bike shop !

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    63
    The phrase you get what you pay for is certainly true in most any aspect of life.
    To say all these lights are junk just is not reality.They in fact are very good for the price.or even when compared to much more expensive systems.
    To compare them to the magic shine issues is natural, but unfounded. The facts are that guys will continue to purchase low priced systems, whether its a light, helmet cam or whatever else.
    Thanks to the riders who have called in and ordered.
    . I appreciate the hard knocks I have received here. Some are fair, others are not. Either way I learned something. and will be a better person for it.
    Hopefully you guys have had your fill, I know I have and will not be doing deals like this in the future.. So continue on or let it die.. its your choice . I'll take the orders any day.
    See ya at a 24hr soon.
    Thanks

  82. #82
    Goats Rule!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    311

  83. #83
    www.hahntronix.com
    Reputation: mhahn@hvc.rr.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    252
    There is a third way, something less expensive than high end lights and better quality than Chinese knockoffs. Go check the classifieds and look at some of the lights the DIY crowd are selling (full disclosure, I have an ad there). We even have our own forum on mtbr.com: http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=124. Most don't have the bling of the higher end lights, some don't even look as nice as the MS from the outside (I'd say mine fall into that category). But these are lights built by folks who ride with them. They put a lot of time and effort into designing a safe, efficient light.

    Flashlights are OK to introduce yourself to riding at night, but lack any of the safety features a real bike light has (thermal protection, low battery warning, etc.). Plus the driver electronics are designed to fit in a very small space. They often run way too hot for the components in them to last more than a few hundred hours of heavy use. Don't get me wrong, I always pack a couple of flashlights when I go out at night as backups or to loan to somebody who had light troubles.

    If the DIY lights are too expensive for folks, then I guess you need to ride with some cheap import that might fail on you at any moment (it's not just the batteries that suck in the MS, the headlight electronics are way under-designed), be sure to carry a backup, at least a flashlight.

    So if you got burned in the MS fiasco, and want to buy another light, don't feel like your only choices are to buy another Chinese made light (granted one that may be of better quality) or take out a second mortgage to buy some German uber bike light .

    Mark
    Nimium est melior!

  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,322
    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastian78
    Well, some of us really can't afford a Lupine battery and Magicshine is the only possible solution for night riding. In the end, it's better WITH knock-off because more people get to ride and the more serious manufacturers get solid competition to improve their products.
    +1....well said.

    Heck knows how Lupine even got mentioned in a thread like this in the first place. It's almost like mentioning a five star Restaurant in a discussion about MacDonalds and their competitors.

    Personally, I like the Clone Wars. Good entertainment as long as things ( meaning all the BS ) doesn't get too out of hand. More cheap lights mean more options for everyone. If I didn't already own a slew of lights I might even buy one myself. If I did, I would expect to only get a couple seasons out of the set-up but that's just my take on it. Anyway, for the price you can upgrade every other year or so when the new emitters come out anyway. In keeping with that, expect to see an XM-L version of the MS ( and it's Clones ) real soon.

  85. #85
    the train keeps rollin
    Reputation: snowdrifter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    3,213
    Quote Originally Posted by Gemini Rides
    . We do have evidence that BiggerTech has used our designs without consent to produce a copy of our Titan product (a written contract and design interations up to final product).

    As we all know, copy products will almost always pop up inevitably.
    LMFAO! Your product is a copy of Magicshine, which is a copy of Lupine. What a bunch of dribble.
    beaver hunt

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    393
    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    Lupine is flying WAY above this... this knock offs are just that and they will last a couple of seasons. After a while there will be no magicshine or X brand to get you your warranty because your crappy product just exploded on your camelback and Lupine will keep giving a top notch service to their users....
    Magicshines exist because people don't respect that a good company dropped tons of money doing research; they just care about themselves... someday Taiwan or whatever will take over the USA and I would like to see people whinning about it...
    You want to contribute? you don't need to spend big bucks but don't buy from the ones that steal....buy DIY, Trailed, Scar or whatever but all the guys buying cheap taiwanese crap help the cycle and create this mess.
    What research? Lupine still uses Korean (or similar) LED's and other semiconductors right?

    With regard to the bicycle, Taiwan has already taken over the USA and everywhere else. The Taiwanese own bicycling. Giant, Merida, etc are the largest bicycle manufacturers in the world, and they make bicycles for a whole host of American and European 'manufacturers', or should I say brands. Taiwan has been world class since the early 90's. It's a pity we (the US and Europe) are not world-class any longer; we just don't have much left. The issue here is with China, not Taiwan. Even Taiwan is threatened by China, and they will lose more of their manufacturing to China, just like we did. The magicshine would have been a better product from the get go if it had been Taiwanese. The Chinese cannot resist cutting corners......

  87. #87
    www.hahntronix.com
    Reputation: mhahn@hvc.rr.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    252
    What research? Lupine still uses Korean (or similar) LED's and other semiconductors right?
    A lot of "American" semiconductors are made in China, Korea, etc. The Seoul Semiconductor P7 (SSC P7) used by Lupine is based on an LED die that they (SSC) buy from CREE, an American company (who might make the dies in Thailand for all I know). Where a component is made has less to do with how "good" it is than the process that was used to design and produce it, and how tightly controlled that process is.

    Having designed and built my own bike lights and driver electronics, I can tell you there is a lot of research that goes into creating a light. It is expensive to design your own electronics and produce something that is reliable and efficient. It is very time consuming to write your own firmware, even for something as simple as a bike light, if you are worried about writing code that is safe, well designed, and thoroughly debugged.

    All of the inexpensive bike lights I've taken apart (or helped people reverse engineer) use drivers that were designed to be used in flashlights or are based on such designs. They typically use the cheapest parts they can find. Their firmware is pretty primitive, and has until recently been pretty poorly designed for bike riding, they probably just re-used flashlight code. Even the recent improvements we have seen in the inexpensive lights don't seem that well thought out from a rider's point of view. An example would be the MagicShine now switches to low mode when it gets too hot. Not too handy if your light has overheated on a long climb, and you are suddenly at the top of a steep gnarly downhill section.

    I'm probably wasting my time trying to convince MagicShine users "who drank the koolaid" that big light companies (and my little company) are not ripping you off by charging what they do. They do spend money thinking about user safety, building a light that will last more than a couple of seasons, offering customer service, etc.

    If they are selling thru a distributor/bike shop network, then everybody along the way needs to get a cut as well. That boosts the price you see by quite a bit, anywhere from 25% to 50% of the final price. You get lower prices from places like Deal Extreme and Geoman because they don't have a distributor network they need to keep happy.

    Don't expect Lupine and the other light companies to drop their distributors in order to sell lower priced lights. They need bike shops, distributors, advertising, etc. to keep their sales volume high enuff that they can benefit from economies of scale. If you want to rant about how expensive their lights are, you might as well rant against the way stuff is sold in the brick and mortar world. That's where a lot of the "cost" of the light comes from.

    I've tried to avoid that by selling directly online, in places like the mtbr forums, and by word of mouth. That lets me offer more light than some of the big companies do for a lower price. My sales volume will be lower, and I guarantee I won't make enuff to be retiring anytime soon . But it's a fun hobby and gets me out riding after dark.

    Mark
    Nimium est melior!

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    393
    Quote Originally Posted by mhahn@hvc.rr.com
    A lot of "American" semiconductors are made in China, Korea, etc. The Seoul Semiconductor P7 (SSC P7) used by Lupine is based on an LED die that they (SSC) buy from CREE, an American company (who might make the dies in Thailand for all I know). Where a component is made has less to do with how "good" it is than the process that was used to design and produce it, and how tightly controlled that process is.

    Having designed and built my own bike lights and driver electronics, I can tell you there is a lot of research that goes into creating a light. It is expensive to design your own electronics and produce something that is reliable and efficient. It is very time consuming to write your own firmware, even for something as simple as a bike light, if you are worried about writing code that is safe, well designed, and thoroughly debugged.

    All of the inexpensive bike lights I've taken apart (or helped people reverse engineer) use drivers that were designed to be used in flashlights or are based on such designs. They typically use the cheapest parts they can find. Their firmware is pretty primitive, and has until recently been pretty poorly designed for bike riding, they probably just re-used flashlight code. Even the recent improvements we have seen in the inexpensive lights don't seem that well thought out from a rider's point of view. An example would be the MagicShine now switches to low mode when it gets too hot. Not too handy if your light has overheated on a long climb, and you are suddenly at the top of a steep gnarly downhill section.

    I'm probably wasting my time trying to convince MagicShine users "who drank the koolaid" that big light companies (and my little company) are not ripping you off by charging what they do. They do spend money thinking about user safety, building a light that will last more than a couple of seasons, offering customer service, etc.

    If they are selling thru a distributor/bike shop network, then everybody along the way needs to get a cut as well. That boosts the price you see by quite a bit, anywhere from 25% to 50% of the final price. You get lower prices from places like Deal Extreme and Geoman because they don't have a distributor network they need to keep happy.

    Don't expect Lupine and the other light companies to drop their distributors in order to sell lower priced lights. They need bike shops, distributors, advertising, etc. to keep their sales volume high enuff that they can benefit from economies of scale. If you want to rant about how expensive their lights are, you might as well rant against the way stuff is sold in the brick and mortar world. That's where a lot of the "cost" of the light comes from.

    I've tried to avoid that by selling directly online, in places like the mtbr forums, and by word of mouth. That lets me offer more light than some of the big companies do for a lower price. My sales volume will be lower, and I guarantee I won't make enuff to be retiring anytime soon . But it's a fun hobby and gets me out riding after dark.

    Mark
    I shall digest all you have written, but put it this way.. we pay FAR more for goods in the UK than you do in the states. Americans piss and moan about the cost of housing, petrol (gas) and bike lights, but the reality is that we pay anything from 30% to 200% more than you do on these things.

    American options are out when you factor in shipping. And the ONLY British option (Hope) that puts out 900 lumens is £360 or about $540. I bet you don't pay that much. It's too much for me, for a light, I don't use much. I go with the Chinese option on lights.

    Edited to add: I don't see how you can claim a distributor is needed for economies of scale. Magicshine are surely selling more units than Lupine I would imagine. So where is the economy of scale?

  89. #89
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mattthemuppet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    2,342
    Quote Originally Posted by 9speed
    I shall digest all you have written, but put it this way.. we pay FAR more for goods in the UK than you do in the states. Americans piss and moan about the cost of housing, petrol (gas) and bike lights, but the reality is that we pay anything from 30% to 200% more than you do on these things.

    American options are out when you factor in shipping. And the ONLY British option (Hope) that puts out 900 lumens is £360 or about $540. I bet you don't pay that much. It's too much for me, for a light, I don't use much. I go with the Chinese option on lights.

    Edited to add: I don't see how you can claim a distributor is needed for economies of scale. Magicshine are surely selling more units than Lupine I would imagine. So where is the economy of scale?
    to add to mhahn's post - R&D takes ALOT of time and money on getting every facet of the light right from reflector (how many people have complained about the MS's beam pattern?), to the driver (ditto), to the battery (ditto) to the charger (won't even go there), which, in turn, feeds into the warranty they offer. I don't remember any of the major light manus (except NR) who've had to recall an entire batch of lights. I also know that, for most of these lights, the warranty is extremely limited. That's what you pay for. The components cost peanuts (reliable Li-ion cells excepted), it's the design and care and expertise you're paying for.

    as for the whole US vs. UK thing, it's been done to death, but in approximate order: taxes (20% VAT vs. what, 6-8%? ~25% federal + state income tax vs. 40%+ income tax + NI contributions = higher overhead for importer), 1/5 of the market size by population, C&E duties, strong pound vs. weak dollar due to the US's huge current account deficit and quantitative easing, fewer choices leading to less competition (due to smaller market size). It's just the way it is, but if it's any consolation, no one goes bankrupt from medical fees in the UK. That said, the constant tax drain and constant whinging is why I left the UK and have no desire to return, for all it's faults I far prefer the US.

  90. #90
    www.hahntronix.com
    Reputation: mhahn@hvc.rr.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    252
    I don't see how you can claim a distributor is needed for economies of scale. Magicshine are surely selling more units than Lupine I would imagine. So where is the economy of scale?
    As I understand it, the brick and mortar way of selling stuff for the last hundred years or so is something like:

    Company A designs and builds a widget, and maybe spends some money advertising it. They spend X dollars to produce and advertise the widget.

    Company B, a distributor, agrees to buy a large fixed amount of the widgets for X + 25%. This lets company A figure out the best way to finance building the widgets. And let's them get a good price for the parts they need to build the widget by agreeing to buy a large amount of parts.

    Companies C thru Z sell the lights to consumers. They may provide some advertising. They provide some shelf space and display the widgets. They buy lights from B at X + 50%, and turn around and sell them to consumers at X + 75%

    The percentage markups above vary depending on market size. For items you sell a lot of, the markups are low. For more expensive widgets, that sell in low volumes, the markups may be higher than the example I gave.

    Without distributors like company B, it's very hard (expensive) for small companies like A to deal with companies C thru Z. And until the internet came along company A wouldn't dream of trying to sell directly to consumers.

    Now with the internet, why don't they sell directly to consumers at X + %50? Because they still need the guaranteed purchase from B, and the advertising, shelf space, customer service handling that they get thru the whole retail supply chain, and would piss all those folks off if they sold it to you for less than your local bike shop sold it for.

    I think MagicShine hit a perfect price point for folks who didn't want to pay for the distributor/bikes shop/ retail supply chain model. The price was low enuff folks were willing to risk $85 to see if the lights were crap or not. They sold as many as they did by basically going viral. Most of the initial lights sold worked and were pretty bright. They sold thru a few distributors (Deal Extreme, Geoman, etc.) and didn't offer much of a warranty. They spent nothing for advertising. GeoMan (the largest US distributor) took out a few ads on the mtbr forums, and promoted the lights in the forums. That was the extent of advertising I was aware of.

    From what I've seen of pricing documentation for the MagicShine, GeoMan was(is?) probably buying lights for $50 per thousand and reselling them for $85. Which would have been a decent profit if the returns were low. That probably didn't work out too well given the recall he is trying to survive.

    What I really can't figure out is how the MagicShine manufacturer (Shenzhen Minjun Electronic Co. I think) makes any money selling the lights for $50 (I'm assuming they sell it to Deal Extreme for around the same price GeoMan was getting). I kind of wonder at the quality of parts they must be using if they are able to make a profit at that price.

    I had sort of hoped to go viral, small time, with my first light design, a SSC P7 using the same reflector Lupine does, and sell it online for around $150. But when the MagicShine came out, a product that sold for less than I could buy the parts for my lights (I'm talking about 100s quantity from US distributors), I decided to go a bit more high end and sell lights in the 1300+ lumen range. So far I've sold enuff to keep me interested in pursuing the middle ground market: designed and built in the US, brighter than the MS at a lower weight, not as cheap as the MS, better quality than the MS, less expensive in terms of lumens per $ than the larger companies. But I'm not trying to make a living off it, it's a hobby for me. And who knows, maybe after the battery recall fiasco people will be willing to spend a bit more for a decent light.

    Mark

    PS
    Americans piss and moan about the cost of housing, petrol (gas) and bike lights, but the reality is that we pay anything from 30% to 200% more than you do on these things.
    Hey, I think gas is too cheap in the US. If we paid more for it more people might ride bicycles and I'd have more customers
    Nimium est melior!

  91. #91
    discombobulated SuperModerator
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    3,219
    Quote Originally Posted by mhahn@hvc.rr.com
    A lot of "American" semiconductors are made in China, Korea, etc. The Seoul Semiconductor P7 (SSC P7) used by Lupine is based on an LED die that they (SSC) buy from CREE, an American company (who might make the dies in Thailand for all I know). Where a component is made has less to do with how "good" it is than the process that was used to design and produce it, and how tightly controlled that process is.

    Having designed and built my own bike lights and driver electronics, I can tell you there is a lot of research that goes into creating a light. It is expensive to design your own electronics and produce something that is reliable and efficient. It is very time consuming to write your own firmware, even for something as simple as a bike light, if you are worried about writing code that is safe, well designed, and thoroughly debugged.

    All of the inexpensive bike lights I've taken apart (or helped people reverse engineer) use drivers that were designed to be used in flashlights or are based on such designs. They typically use the cheapest parts they can find. Their firmware is pretty primitive, and has until recently been pretty poorly designed for bike riding, they probably just re-used flashlight code. Even the recent improvements we have seen in the inexpensive lights don't seem that well thought out from a rider's point of view. An example would be the MagicShine now switches to low mode when it gets too hot. Not too handy if your light has overheated on a long climb, and you are suddenly at the top of a steep gnarly downhill section.

    I'm probably wasting my time trying to convince MagicShine users "who drank the koolaid" that big light companies (and my little company) are not ripping you off by charging what they do. They do spend money thinking about user safety, building a light that will last more than a couple of seasons, offering customer service, etc.


    If they are selling thru a distributor/bike shop network, then everybody along the way needs to get a cut as well. That boosts the price you see by quite a bit, anywhere from 25% to 50% of the final price. You get lower prices from places like Deal Extreme and Geoman because they don't have a distributor network they need to keep happy.

    Don't expect Lupine and the other light companies to drop their distributors in order to sell lower priced lights. They need bike shops, distributors, advertising, etc. to keep their sales volume high enuff that they can benefit from economies of scale. If you want to rant about how expensive their lights are, you might as well rant against the way stuff is sold in the brick and mortar world. That's where a lot of the "cost" of the light comes from.

    I've tried to avoid that by selling directly online, in places like the mtbr forums, and by word of mouth. That lets me offer more light than some of the big companies do for a lower price. My sales volume will be lower, and I guarantee I won't make enuff to be retiring anytime soon . But it's a fun hobby and gets me out riding after dark.

    Mark
    yea you probably are...I find your posts long winded, a bit pompous and you toss in a little derisiveness towards your potential customers. None of which does much for me.
    My $90 MS has done Exactly what I needed it to do, with no problemos. IF I have an issue with the battery I now know enough to source a high quality 18650 pack for very little money. A pack whose 'high end chinese' cells are likely the same ones from the Big light (and yours) companies...

    The biggest thing a company can do is recognize and adapt to change. paradigm shift and all.
    Perhaps in the near future big mfr's will be forced to reduce the amount of touches a product makes en route to the consumer, thereby reducing the cost.....

    No matter what happens with Geoman and the recall, I am happy enough with my purchase, and so far it has been a real value, despite the bump in the road that is the battery recall.

    CDT

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mattthemuppet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    2,342
    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    yea you probably are...I find your posts long winded, a bit pompous and you toss in a little derisiveness towards your potential customers. None of which does much for me.
    nice. I like the attitude Perhaps if the seasoned light builders were terse and uncommunicative, you'd have an even better idea of how to build that super cheap replacement battery you're boasting about?

  93. #93
    discombobulated SuperModerator
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    3,219
    Quote Originally Posted by mattthemuppet
    nice. I like the attitude Perhaps if the seasoned light builders were terse and uncommunicative, you'd have an even better idea of how to build that super cheap replacement battery you're boasting about?

    Cry me a river., from the get go there were two camps. People who bought MS and those who waited to gleefully thrust a dagger into the makers or purchasers.
    I myself bought one and have had zero problems. None of my LiPo or Li-ion batteries I have, have blown up nor dwindled down to 5% of capacity yet.

    And to tell you the truth, looking up 18650 and doing a modicum of reading aint that hard...

    Perhaps if google was a bit more 'terse and uncommunicative' no one would know anything..

    Really how many MS packs have exploded?

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    393
    If any had exploded we would have seen a recall in the UK. We aint no backwater 3rd world country (yet). Dodgy items don't sell for long in blighty. Hundreds perhaps thousands of these lights have been sold in the UK, but where are the hoardes of complaints?

    It's a recall that isn't a recall. And it was voluntary!

    Smells like fish.

  95. #95
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    ...

    Really how many MS packs have exploded?
    I think two so far (at least what's been shown) - I think some most are due to faulty cells...
    I'm in the latter camp.

    Thermal Runaway is no joke if you have ever witnessed it - I have (back in the Navy)

    And, FWIW, I'm not against you Tony - just addin' my $.02
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  96. #96
    mtbr member
    Reputation: znomit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,877
    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    I think two so far (at least what's been shown) - I think some most are due to faulty cells...
    Weren't those chargers?

  97. #97
    ~Disc~Golf~
    Reputation: highdelll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    16,491
    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Weren't those chargers?
    Umm, I tried to find the links (didn't look too hard), but I'm pretty sure they were battery TR...
    They are here in the pages of MTBR or linked from here...

    ALSO, I think I didn't separate "faulty cells" from my take on exploding batteries enough
    you can certainly have a dead cell and not worry about it burning your house down.
    **Don't try this at home without trained pornstars**
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  98. #98
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,322
    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    ...Really how many MS packs have exploded?
    I'm not really sure that was the major issue although I do remember someone having a story about a closet fire or something like that. Not a big issue as I see it unless hundreds are flaming out ( and that ain't happening ). Li-ion cells contain built-in safety measures. Even so, theoretically if they fail and the cell goes into thermal runaway but such is a very rare thing. A couple years ago I had a battery go up while in my vehicle. My fault for leaving it in a vehicle that sat outside in the summer sun all day. All it did was short out and then the safety protection cut in and that was that. No fire only some burnt electronic smell. At the time I had no idea where the smell came from. Later on I found out the battery would no longer work, then I remembered the burnt smell in my car and deduced what had happened. Need I say, battery safety is not just a MS issue.

    On the other hand the MS battery does have some quality issues that are being dealt with. Once again I think the issue was over-blown. The people who post up saying they won't buy a MS because they don't want the battery to blow up make me laugh. In comparison, how many people ride motorcycles? It could easily be argued that motorcycles ( or MTB's for that matter ) are two-wheeled body-crippling / death machines. Yet does this stop people from buying them or make the cycle companies recall their bikes because someone died on one? Of course not. I've got no reason to blame anyone for being safe as long as it doesn't venture into the realm of paranoid delusion. Be safe, enjoy your ride and enjoy your MS for as long as it last. If it stops working, buy another if that makes your day.

  99. #99
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    393
    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    I think two so far (at least what's been shown) - I think some most are due to faulty cells...
    I'm in the latter camp.

    Thermal Runaway is no joke if you have ever witnessed it - I have (back in the Navy)

    And, FWIW, I'm not against you Tony - just addin' my $.02
    Do the two that have apparently "exploded" include the one that was tossed from a train after catching fire (apparently soon after being dropped)?

    I still smell fish.

  100. #100
    www.hahntronix.com
    Reputation: mhahn@hvc.rr.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    252
    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    yea you probably are...I find your posts long winded, a bit pompous and you toss in a little derisiveness towards your potential customers. None of which does much for me.
    You are not a potential customer. I know I will never sell a single light to somebody who is convinced that the MagicShine is the perfect solution for them. If you find my postings derisive, my apologies. If they do nothing for you ... then don't read them.

    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    My $90 MS has done Exactly what I needed it to do, with no problemos.
    And I sincerely hope it stays that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    IF I have an issue with the battery I now know enough to source a high quality 18650 pack for very little money. A pack whose 'high end chinese' cells are likely the same ones from the Big light (and yours) companies...
    Actually I usually sell NiMh batteries with my lights. Safer for my customers and me. If properly cared for and recharged with a decent charger a NiMh battery will last years longer than a Li-Ion battery will, especially inexpensive Li-Ion batteries. I offer Li-Ion 18650 holders as an option for folks who can't live without them.

    Quote Originally Posted by CdaleTony
    The biggest thing a company can do is recognize and adapt to change. paradigm shift and all.
    If by paradigm shift you mean compete with companies who cheat (I consider putting bogus UL and CE markings on a product cheating), then all a company can do is cheat in return or try to educate potential customers about the cheating. Cheating customers does not seem like a good business model to me (but I may be naive ).

    I don't consider GeoMan to be responsible for what I'm calling cheating, I think GeoManGear is probably a victim in this whole mess.

    Mark
    Nimium est melior!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •