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  1. #1
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    The real story about inexpensive lights

    HI Guys/Gals
    It is Darryl from Cyclops Motorsports/ Adventure sports. Based out of the Pacific NW
    We have been in business since 02
    Threw the years I have used MTBR for info on developing a line of Bicycle lights. To add to our very successful Moto Based line.
    We have been trusted by the best Moto riders in the world and manufacture much of what we offer. You can check us out on any moto related forum. Customer service and satifaction is our top priority.
    After much thought and work we decided that we would put out an entry level (inexpensive) LED light. WE do not intend to compete with the higher priced lights from Niterider, Baja Designs, etc.This is a great light, but It is not the best available. Hense the price point.. We are also a BD dealer and will have the striker online soon.
    We worked with a Chinese supplier and specked the light you see below. It Has been out since July of 2010 and it was our intention to work with distributors and dealers so that we can support the local shops. We have done that, But do to some less than honest distribution issues we now find that it is best to go consumer direct..
    I about hit the floor when I saw the Gemini post . So Game on
    The manufacturing agreement was for Cyclops and Bikeray us to be the sole distributing channels in the USA
    Although you have seen another post with a similar looking light. I can guarantee you ours is different and made to ours specs. The biggest being the Hermetically sealed batteries and the fact that we are using the p7 D bin emitter.
    These are things That Cyclops specked into our production run.
    All these lights where made by Bigger Tech/ Bikeray. Anyone that says different has either copied the design or is lying. . You be the judge..
    To the dealers we have setup already. I will personally make it up to you.
    All this is not good for the shops or really for you end consumers either. But as Americans we all want more for less.
    Cyclops Adventure sports will be advertising on MTBR and has been in contact with the powers that be for some time. Look for our add to show up soon.
    We have learned our lesson here on development and will make changes in the future.
    So here is our offer
    Our complete ADV light LED kit 130.00 with Free shipping in the cont US..
    2 year warranty on the light head 1 year on the batteries.
    Last edited by off road rider; 12-06-2010 at 08:30 PM.

  2. #2
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    Looks exactly like the Gemini Titan - are you saying that is a lifted design?

  3. #3
    Phil from San Diego
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    ^^

    ... and for $130, Gemini offers a couple more items not seen in your photo, ie, head strap and hard storage box. Not saying I care about those 2 items which are just fluff.

    Will let you guys sort it out...

  4. #4
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    For those of us a little less knowledgeable about the differences in emitters, what is the advantage of the D over the C emitter?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by betweenrides
    Looks exactly like the Gemini Titan - are you saying that is a lifted design?
    Thats exactly what I'm saying..If they claim to be the manufactures..It certainly is possible they bought from BiggerTech.. either way they are full of crap.

  6. #6
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    I had an old Cyclops back in the day. Are you in Kent?
    "It looks flexy"

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlownCivic
    For those of us a little less knowledgeable about the differences in emitters, what is the advantage of the D over the C emitter?
    In a nut shell the P7 emitter will provide morel lumen's at the same amp rating.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay
    I had an old Cyclops back in the day. Are you in Kent?
    Yes that is us.. I imagine your talking about the original MC Halogen.. Still very popular with the snowmobile crowd.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prexus2005
    ^^

    ... and for $130, Gemini offers a couple more items not seen in your photo, ie, head strap and hard storage box. Not saying I care about those 2 items which are just fluff.

    Will let you guys sort it out...
    I'm sure the Gemini group are good people. Something went askew here .
    Since we had the light first there have been a few add ons. Our offer includes free shipping and backed by a known American company.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    In a nut shell the P7 emitter will provide morel lumen's at the same amp rating.
    I'm asking about the difference between the P7 C and the P7 D emitters.

  11. #11
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    I just went to the website and this light is listed for $224.95 and $9.95 shipping, NOT $130.00 and free shipping.

  12. #12
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    Ok, so I'm ready to order, do you have a code for your website?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlownCivic
    I'm asking about the difference between the P7 C and the P7 D emitters.
    The D-bin is better. Brighter and better tint. If I was choosing which of the two to buy I would buy the one with the D-bin if that is offered.

    Now about this "Who's First situation": How and the heck are we to know who is actually first with the design? Now if you have patents to the design that is a matter for the lawyers to sort out. To me it looks like it was made at the same manufacture as the Gemini. I'm sure nobody likes to have their product cloned but it happens all the time. Why not just sell the product and forget about trying to start a pissing war. Right now there are a handful of P-7 based lights out there to compete against. I say move on and just forget about it. Let the consumers sort it out. If you want to start a war let be with a price gun.

    Anyway, to me it looks like more is going on here than meets the eye. Just remember, when the MagicShine came out there also followed a bunch of other MS clones that looked just like the MS. I think this could just be a case of "What goes around, comes around".

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    The D-bin is better. Brighter and better tint. If I was choosing which of the two to buy I would buy the one with the D-bin if that is offered.

    Now about this "Who's First situation": How and the heck are we to know who is actually first with the design? Now if you have patents to the design that is a matter for the lawyers to sort out. To me it looks like it was made at the same manufacture as the Gemini. I'm sure nobody likes to have their product cloned but it happens all the time. Why not just sell the product and forget about trying to start a pissing war. Right now there are a handful of P-7 based lights out there to compete against. I say move on and just forget about it. Let the consumers sort it out. If you want to start a war let be with a price gun.

    Anyway, to me it looks like more is going on here than meets the eye. Just remember, when the MagicShine came out there also followed a bunch of other MS clones that looked just like the MS. I think this could just be a case of "What goes around, comes around".
    Thanks for answering the diff in the d anc c bin P7 emitters, I brain farted my response.
    As far as who was first, Believe what you want. as far as a pissing match then absolutely I will.Why? A deal is a Deal.. Say you purchased A large # of lights with an understanding you and 1 other would have the exclusive in the states.Everyone has worked out pricing and there is a general plan in place. Then before you get any traction, some one comes along and undercuts what you are doing in a large way..And F's up the entire Plan.
    I think you might also be a bit pissed off. This will cause our setup dealers pain.and be a tarnish on my company when we bring out our next bicycle light .
    And yes there is more behind the scenes. So you can chose a Proven US company or a Canadian start up. The choice is yours..But we will defend our Agreements wouldn't you??

  15. #15
    www.airbornemtb.org
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    Quote Originally Posted by sd_sparky
    I just went to the website and this light is listed for $224.95 and $9.95 shipping, NOT $130.00 and free shipping.
    yup, i dont see anything for 130, this is the light shown above right?

    http://www.cyclopsadventuresports.co...products&id=96
    Quote Originally Posted by HamfisT
    I understand that engineering has value in and of itself. But in the end, it's still just a pile of aluminum tubes.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sd_sparky
    I just went to the website and this light is listed for $224.95 and $9.95 shipping, NOT $130.00 and free shipping.
    Yes that was the Price before we had to cut out all our great dealers. Not something I take lightly... Out of respect to them, I am leaving the price on the website as is until I can personally contact them.
    By Monday afternoon it will be priced accordingly per this post.
    We will be using MTBR as a discount code That will give you the 130 and free shipping.
    In the mean time you can call 1 800 624 0278. and receive the 130 price..
    We hope to have our add up asap.. I also dont like spam

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    So you can chose a Proven US company or a Canadian start up. The choice is yours..
    Given as how I am Canadian (as well as quite a few other forum users) being a US company isn't always seen as being an advantage. Not having to ship across the border is a nice bonus.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    Thanks for answering the diff in the d anc c bin P7 emitters, I brain farted my response.
    As far as who was first, Believe what you want. as far as a pissing match then absolutely I will.Why? A deal is a Deal.. Say you purchased A large # of lights with an understanding you and 1 other would have the exclusive in the states.Everyone has worked out pricing and there is a general plan in place. Then before you get any traction, some one comes along and undercuts what you are doing in a large way..And F's up the entire Plan.
    I think you might also be a bit pissed off. This will cause our setup dealers pain.and be a tarnish on my company when we bring out our next bicycle light .
    And yes there is more behind the scenes. So you can chose a Proven US company or a Canadian start up. The choice is yours..But we will defend our Agreements wouldn't you??
    Take Cat's advice and tone down the indignation.
    The original rip off occured when these Lupines clones started showing up.
    There is a big market looking to buy lights and with the magic shine sort of out of the picture currently you have a good shot at picking up some of that demand.
    Worry about things the consumers actually care about.
    1) Light
    2) Price
    3) Customer service
    4) Warranty
    5) US Company standing behind product warranty.

    That's all you need. The rest is internal issues/drama that your company has to deal with. Airing that in public will just put off consumers.

  19. #19
    Diagnosed with MTB.
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    Hello from Gemini,

    Off course we are watching. Just to let you know that Gemini Industries does not supply this retailer. We know exactly the manufacturer of this light and all the background story.

    Other than that a PM has already been send to the retailer and I will take personal care that we will communicate with each other very soon.

    Greets,
    Vag


    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Take Cat's advice and tone down the indignation.
    The original rip off occured when these Lupines clones started showing up.
    There is a big market looking to buy lights and with the magic shine sort of out of the picture currently you have a good shot at picking up some of that demand.
    Worry about things the consumers actually care about.
    1) Light
    2) Price
    3) Customer service
    4) Warranty
    5) US Company standing behind product warranty.

    That's all you need. The rest is internal issues/drama that your company has to deal with. Airing that in public will just put off consumers.

  20. #20
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    I have plenty of popcorn, this might get good.
    KHS
    Motobecane
    Fisher
    Kona

  21. #21
    Phil from San Diego
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    I agree with odtexas, there is a big market with people looking to purchase lights right now esp with Magicshine having issues.

    I am disappointed with Gemini in that you guys still have not answered a lot of the questions from the other thread in terms of providing manufactur info on the components and more importantly, decent beam shots of the lights.

    With the MTBR shootout going on right now, there is no excuse for your lights not to be included for review unless you are worried that it's inferior?

    So focus on MARKETING the light to us! If you believe you have a great product, back it up with performance claims/photos etc, give us an incentive to purchase at an discounted intro price, and if people are happy with the lights, word of mouth advertising from these first customers will take care of the rest. Just look at how popular MagicShine was!

    I don't know if you guys are the point person for advertising/marketing in your companies... I hope not, because I'd fire you both!

  22. #22
    Diagnosed with MTB.
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    Hey Prexus,

    Should I consider myself fired. hehe

    I think you just missed the beam shots. They are there and they are the more decent as they can be, using exactly the specifications that mtbr.com uses for their shootouts.

    As for the techs we still need to post about the batteries. We did not do it all this time because we were improving our batery pack even more, Really soon news about batteries will be posted. Do I miss something more?

    We are going to be in the shootout

    Greets
    Vag

    Quote Originally Posted by Prexus2005
    I agree with odtexas, there is a big market with people looking to purchase lights right now esp with Magicshine having issues.

    I am disappointed with Gemini in that you guys still have not answered a lot of the questions from the other thread in terms of providing manufactur info on the components and more importantly, decent beam shots of the lights.

    With the MTBR shootout going on right now, there is no excuse for your lights not to be included for review unless you are worried that it's inferior?

    So focus on MARKETING the light to us! If you believe you have a great product, back it up with performance claims/photos etc, give us an incentive to purchase at an discounted intro price, and if people are happy with the lights, word of mouth advertising from these first customers will take care of the rest. Just look at how popular MagicShine was!

    I don't know if you guys are the point person for advertising/marketing in your companies... I hope not, because I'd fire you both!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJETT
    I have plenty of popcorn, this might get good.
    Indeed.

    Same deal as the MS, resellers claiming they exclusively sell a higher grade product. Probably come out of the same factory.
    Do the batteries catch fire?

    Undercutting your own retailers ...
    ps Cyclops you need to edit your advertising to say "900 lumens LED" rather than "provides 900 lumen's of High Intensity light " because there is a big difference.


    ps, same light available in NZ for 110US$ since april
    http://www.glowormlites.co.nz/product.htm

    DIY LED Bike Lights:
    A few Dynamo builds and some Small battery lights

  24. #24
    www.hahntronix.com
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    off road rider,

    Feel free to vent about how you got hozed by China, I'm about to.

    Quote Originally Posted by off road rider
    Say you purchased A large # of lights with an understanding you and 1 other would have the exclusive in the states.Everyone has worked out pricing and there is a general plan in place. Then before you get any traction, some one comes along and undercuts what you are doing in a large way..And F's up the entire Plan.
    I think you might also be a bit pissed off.
    Well if you substitute the sentence about buying a large number of lights and a marketing understanding with "Say you spent several thousands of dollars and many hundreds of hours designing and engineering a high quality bike light that would sell for less than all the big brands." you could be describing my hobby business (www.hahntronix.com) for the last couple years. Or the hobby businesses of many folks who shared ideas on the DIY lighting forum: http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=124

    Welcome to Amerikan Kapitalism meets Chinese Kapitalism (course number 101)! Boy does it suck. No pesky intellectual property laws or worries about product liability for the manufacturer, lots of problems for the distributor (search for some of the MagicShine battery recall threads on these forums for an example of a distributor who got hozed), and impossible competition pricing for manufacturers based outside China.

    Your light is a better Chinese copy of a cheap Chinese copy of the German designed Tesla (that sounds like a line about Walther 22 caliber pistols from William Gibson's "Neuromancer"). Which makes your complaining about your design being ripped off seem a bit interesting

    I think odtexas missed a couple of things from his list of things bikers care about (I'm not saying my concerns need to be numbers 1, 2 and 3, but they should be on the list):

    1 - quality
    Lights should last more than a couple of seasons. I suspect you are using a variant of the original MagicShine driver. If not, please disregard the rest of this point. If you are using a LED that can run 50000 hours, it should last several years, if not a couple generations. If you want the advice of some professional electrical engineers on how to make your headlight electronics suck less, contact some of the folks in the DIY forum who did the original dissection of the MagicShine (full disclosure: I posted on that forum, if you don't want to hire me, I'm OK with that). I'm sure you can find somebody who will help you upgrade the stock you have on hand to make it last longer than a couple of seasons.

    2 - safety
    Build lighting systems that don't burst into flames. Even if it only happens to a very small percentage of users, that's not acceptable. That's why I sell NiMh batteries and smart UL approved NiMh chargers with my lights. NiMh got a bad rap after people tried treating them like NiCads. NiCads handle abuse and just keep working. Early NiMh lighting systems just sold stupid chargers with the batteries that fried the cells if you forgot to unplug them. NiMh batteries die if you overcharge them or over-discharge them. That's why I sell a smart charger with my lights. The charger is designed to detect when the battery is fully charged and then stop. I'm happy to tell folks how to buy or build a Li-Ion battery to use with my lights if that's what they want, but I'm not interested in selling something that can bankrupt me if I get shipped substandard parts. I really think you should reconsider selling inexpensive Li-Ion cells with your lights. At the price point you are selling your lights for you are probably only getting the inexpensive Li-Ion cells (I could be wrong, but I've seen the MagicShine 500 quantity pricing brochure... I can't buy parts to build a Li-Ion battery and charging system from legitimate US distributors in quantity 10000 for what they sell a whole light with battery system for). In my opinion, even the expensive name brand Li-Ion batteries are more of a risk than they are worth.

    3- honesty
    Your D bin P7 lights that you claim to be 900 lumens are probably closer to 770 lumens if measured with a fairly expensive lumen integrating sphere meter. It's OK to claim 900 lumens if you at least say this is a theoretical maximum output assuming perfect 100% efficient optics, but you should at least de-rate the actual output to an 85% or so level if you don't do the actual measurement.


    I've abandoned the low-end sub 600 lumen market to the Chinese. They can sell complete systems for less than it costs a US manufacturer to buy the parts (even in large quantity). I've decided to focus on higher power lights or lights that fill a niche: very light-weight, more user options. a wider variety of power sources, etc.

    I'm sorry if it seems like I'm venting at you, but you are not the only person burned by the Chinese concept of free enterprise. I wish you luck trying to sell your lights.

    If my post seems harsh on all Chinese companies, I apologize. Some provide excellent service and products. I know. I've dealt with Chinese companies who've built products I've designed. Most have been honest and fair. But the ones who promise a product at a price that seems too good to be true ... well, buyer beware.

    Mark
    Nimium est melior!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhahn@hvc.rr.com

    I think odtexas missed a couple of things

    2 - safety
    You have seen how I make my lights right? My definition of safety is somewhat skewed.



    But you do make excellent points in all seriousness.

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