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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    Thank you so much! Awesome open book!
    Very welcome. I'm always happy to help! I want to get more information out there on what makes quality lighting, since it's a rather.... dark.... subject. Lots of people can cite suspension geometry stuff, frame stiffness stuff, human biometrics stuff, but not a lot of people really understand how good lighting is developed except for "big lumens = bestest", and that's mostly because the world of lighting development is hidden behind some very expensive software and fairly tight lipped engineers. Lot's of information out there if you know where to look, particularly in the automotive sector.
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  2. #302
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    Do you plan to use an Atmel AVR microcontroller in the driver? For my headlights, I came up with my own control scheme, very well tailored for my preferences, and I'd wish to be able to re-program your light (if I ever buy it). May be others feel same? That family (8-bit, atmega, attiny) is very popular among electronics hobbyists.

    Is there a chance you'll release open-source firmware for your driver? No company makes their firmwares open source -- understandable. But may be you are different...

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    Do you plan to use an Atmel AVR microcontroller in the driver? For my headlights, I came up with my own control scheme, very well tailored for my preferences, and I'd wish to be able to re-program your light (if I ever buy it). May be others feel same? That family (8-bit, atmega, attiny) is very popular among electronics hobbyists.

    Is there a chance you'll release open-source firmware for your driver? No company makes their firmwares open source -- understandable. But may be you are different...
    Unfortunately that part won't exactly be opensource, nor easily programmable by a user. It's not a hobby grade microcontroller, and is programmed on the assembly line at the PCB supplier (located in Kansas City, about 3 hours from us) through a unique probe connection. Allows for ultra fast production that keeps the overall costs down.

    Trying to use more commonly available hobbiest type drivers, with ways for a user to do their own programming would only increase the already high cost (to us, not the user) and add another level of complexity. Can only go so far.
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  4. #304
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    Thanks for explanations!

    [A bunch of boring words was here -- deleted. Let's wait for wall shots. Unfortunately, can't delete post.]

    PS. I'd wish to see a wall shot (road edition) -- an image, processed from measured data, with colorbar (and numbers), in log scale, with isolines, and with angles grid (and in decent resolution). Thanks (I remember, you planned a full-scale proper headlight comparison project, so no hurry.)
    Last edited by abvgdee; 02-02-2018 at 06:23 AM.

  5. #305
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    First big ole bag of custom made overmolded wiring harnesses showed up the other day! Put into perspective just how many I'll have made once I'm all done, haha.

    We also sent out the PO for our PCBA boards to a local supplier in Kansas City. Very qualified shop that got us great pricing and are going to work super hard to try and help hit our deadline. No overseas electrical production here. No soldered power leads, everything inspected at the manufacture, and thankfully no weeks in overseas shipping.
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  6. #306
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    More science time!

    https://www.outboundlighting.com/twi...right-well-no/

    Brief discussion showing the math of why a 2000 lumen light won't let you see twice as far as a 1000 lumen light, but in fact only 41% as far.
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  7. #307
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    We now have live chat on the website. It isn't manned by third party people, or chat bots. Instead think of it as a direct line to myself. Always happy to answer some questions or help with an order.

    www.outboundlighting.com!
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  8. #308
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    Another question

    In CAD programs, when they show "wall beamshot", what illuminance is shown -- (1) on the enclosing sphere of radius 10m around the light (i.e., simulating goniometer measurements), or (2) at the plane, with the pattern hotspot at 10m (i.e., simulating wall shots)? Or something else?

    Thank you!

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    Another question

    In CAD programs, when they show "wall beamshot", what illuminance is shown -- (1) on the enclosing sphere of radius 10m around the light (i.e., simulating goniometer measurements), or (2) at the plane, with the pattern hotspot at 10m (i.e., simulating wall shots)? Or something else?

    Thank you!
    Can be either or depending on your goal.

    With candela or intensity plots you are plotting onto a sphere because you are looking at angle requirements. This is primarily what is used when designing a beam pattern.

    However when wanting to check illumance on a wall to get an idea of lux, it's a plane at a set distance. Or can set a plane horizontally to get an idea of how it'll illuminate the ground. On some more advanced software can even setup things such as terrain or objects to get illumination maps on there. Maybe one of these days I'll be able to bring out a 3D Scanner to my local trails and make the ultimate light for a particular trail. :P

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTo7UZ4Sig8
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  10. #310
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    Can you tell me how will we atach gopro adaprer to the light, with some screws or there is something setup for that?

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBucan View Post
    Can you tell me how will we atach gopro adaprer to the light, with some screws or there is something setup for that?

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk
    So the GoPro adapter is exactly that, it's just a GoPro adapter that allows you to mount the light onto your exising GoPro mounts, in any way that you see fit. For helmet applications, or on bars or wherever you want to. We obviously recommend using our mount for the bars, but we wanted to give users options to other mounting solutions, and therefore included the GoPro adapter mount.

    Hope that makes sense!

    Edit: re-read your question. You will remove the existing rubber factory bar mount and air scoop with a 4mm allen screw, and attach the GoPro adapter in it's place using that same piece of hardware.

  12. #312
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    Thx for the reply, was just curious, i am prolly still use the default mount coz of faster mounting on and off the handlebars. Decided to use it also on my commute to work.

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBucan View Post
    Thx for the reply, was just curious, i am prolly still use the default mount coz of faster mounting on and off the handlebars. Decided to use it also on my commute to work.

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk
    Kyle (Zenki) is right, pretty simple and quick swap. There is a nyloc nut inside the assembly so the chances of stripping existing threads inside the diecast is pretty slim. And then if you do, it's simply a nyloc nut replacement instead of having to buy a whole new light.
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  14. #314
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    350 pounds worth of batteries showing up on Thursday! UPS guy is going to hateeee me.
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  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    350 pounds worth of batteries showing up on Thursday! UPS guy is going to hateeee me.
    Thanks for the update. I know I'm not alone in my anxious wait for pre-orders to ship out. Are you guy still hoping/planning for a late March delivery?

    -Jeremy

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunnelrat81 View Post
    Thanks for the update. I know I'm not alone in my anxious wait for pre-orders to ship out. Are you guy still hoping/planning for a late March delivery?

    -Jeremy
    I'm waiting on a more firm date from my local PCBA supplier that is putting together the PCB's, but to be honest, probably going to slip into early April. All the parts, lenses, reflectors, straps, batteries, cases, etc will be here in house within the next 2 weeks, but the PCB supplier has been beholden to availability from their own suppliers for various components. Some last minute Engineering Change Orders from us pushed the date back that they could deliver. Wanted to absolutely have a rock-solid product from the get go.

    Thankfully there is nothing so far that is causing us to go back and redesign an entire product or circuitry like some kickstarter projects, and be months or years past the estimated delivery date.

    I'm itching to get these out to everyone as well. Debts are starting to build up! Gotta get to selling!
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  17. #317
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    Thank you for such a full explanation. I doubt anyone here will have a problem with you making sure things are right before shipping. Your continued transparency in the process is refreshing and adds to the anticipation for what we know will be a special product.

    -Jeremy

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Thankfully there is nothing so far that is causing us to go back and redesign an entire product or circuitry like some kickstarter projects, and be months or years past the estimated delivery date.
    That happened to Orfos, the company that provided their molds couldn't live up to their claims, and they had to start over with a new company. Great product, can't wait until I can update to the new gear.

    It's March! Update time!

    For future reference, when introducing what could be a game changing product, understate your worst case delivery timeline by 30%. Nothing sucks worse than a pushback for something you are excited about. Nothing is better than early delivery dates.
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    That happened to Orfos, the company that provided their molds couldn't live up to their claims, and they had to start over with a new company. Great product, can't wait until I can update to the new gear.

    It's March! Update time!

    For future reference, when introducing what could be a game changing product, understate your worst case delivery timeline by 30%. Nothing sucks worse than a pushback for something you are excited about. Nothing is better than early delivery dates.
    It's funny, we had the same problem with the lens. About a week away from seeing if the new lens tooling company can live up to their claim. Previous company did a crap job, and then ghosted us.

    PCB supplier says they'll have a firm date to give me tomorrow. As soon as I know, you guys will know.

    I had actually been wanting to say we were going to deliver in February for the KS, but was urged to push it further back just in case. Well all those just in cases did come through and now used up that extra 30% timeframe. Haha. Back when I started the project in April I was shooting for a November launch date. Glad I didn't publicity state that anywhere!

    I'll have some pictures tonight of all the batteries that showed up. Will be able to start testing and putting them into the pouches in the meantime. Fair bit of work to put 500 silicone enclosed batteries into some sticky rubber pouches.
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  20. #320
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    Nothing sucks worse than a pushback for something you are excited about. Nothing is better than early delivery dates.
    I would like to disagree on this. For me at least what sucks the most is getting a subquality product for the sake of getting it on time. I got burned for the same reason and dont like that mentality in anyone. So il rather even w8 some more then to compromise quality.
    And nothing is better then to get what you expected.
    So for example of Orfos, i respect the fact they didnt send subpar product just to be on time, everyone was satisfied with Flares they received, even though it was much later.

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBucan View Post
    I would like to disagree on this. For me at least what sucks the most is getting a subquality product for the sake of getting it on time. I
    I think that the context of Flaming's post was to take the worst case delivery date and extend that 30%. Then you have cushion and you may be a hero for delivering a quality product ahead of, time and if worst comes to worse, you'll still have a decent chance of making the ship date.

    As a manufacturer I do this regularly. When I tell someone their custom machined parts order will take 2 weeks they sometimes groan a bit but place the order. Then after a week and a half I'm shipping/delivering parts happy faces are all over the place.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    It's funny, we had the same problem with the lens. About a week away from seeing if the new lens tooling company can live up to their claim. Previous company did a crap job, and then ghosted us.
    So, you are saying you don't have confirmation from your lens producer NOW? Hopefully they get it right, I don't need a 3/4yr extension on another kickstarter!

    What was the deciding factor in going with a silicone lens? Reduced parts? Cheaper than UV stabile acrylic? Just cause you like to show off?
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  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    So, you are saying you don't have confirmation from your lens producer NOW? Hopefully they get it right, I don't need a 3/4yr extension on another kickstarter!

    What was the deciding factor in going with a silicone lens? Reduced parts? Cheaper than UV stabile acrylic? Just cause you like to show off?
    We have shots of a cheaper material to confirm the shape and dimensions are stable, and they are now shooting with the correct material to finally dial things in.

    Went with the silicone as a parts reduction, clearer than PMMA and PC, scratch and crash resistant, lighter weight than plastics, and because it's an optical material I've been wanting to work with for a while now. Neat material that seems to blow peoples mind when they touch it and see it in person. Not sure if will still use it in future products as a straight up outer lens, since the costs are fairly high compared to PMMA, but I'm curious to hear what other reactions are to it.
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  24. #324
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    Outbound,

    My priority is reliability. Scratch resistance is important. Not becoming brittle in subzero weather is important. Not becoming cloudy from UV rays is important.

    Aside from cost, is there any downside to using a silicone lens?

    Scott Novak

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post
    Outbound,

    My priority is reliability. Scratch resistance is important. Not becoming brittle in subzero weather is important. Not becoming cloudy from UV rays is important.

    Aside from cost, is there any downside to using a silicone lens?

    Scott Novak
    So far not really. I guess I shouldn't say I am opposed to it in general in the future because of cost, I just need to implement it better. Smaller optical features with silicone are amazing because of the fact you can have zero draft faces and undercuts, and can have it pressed right against the LED without worries of heat affecting it. The real killer is the cost of the tooling. It is by far the most expensive tooling in the whole light because it has to be a hot-runner type tool, along with extremely polished faces since it's optical grade.

    So it hurts as a startup with limited cash, but in the future when reinvesting it won't be so bad. I've got a lot of ideas for the silicone material in the near future. Also a few tricks up my sleeve for some insane light sources. Was tipped off on some new developments that I am trying to get my hands on.
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  26. #326
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    Hey Outbound,
    We had a little rain a couple of nights ago so I decided to convert some of my lux measurements to candela using the formula posted in the beginning of this thread. I remeasured my distances and to be kind to myself my sloppy testing made any previous data unusable. Using more accurate measurements and my 2017 Gloworm X2 (S/S optics) I ended up with a calculated 150 max. lux reading. That's the best thrower of any of my sub 2000 lumen lights so the 175 max. lux you got from your road lighthead looks pretty outstanding and I'm definitely going to try using that helmet mounted since I'm getting both road and mountain versions. Also since the line of sight distances are probably a lot greater on my desert trails than the forest environment you ride in I'm more comfortable that the 80 max. lux of the trail lighthead should be adequate for all but the fastest trails I ride. Patiently waiting, Thanks for doing this for us!
    Mole

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Hey Outbound,
    We had a little rain a couple of nights ago so I decided to convert some of my lux measurements to candela using the formula posted in the beginning of this thread. I remeasured my distances and to be kind to myself my sloppy testing made any previous data unusable. Using more accurate measurements and my 2017 Gloworm X2 (S/S optics) I ended up with a calculated 150 max. lux reading. That's the best thrower of any of my sub 2000 lumen lights so the 175 max. lux you got from your road lighthead looks pretty outstanding and I'm definitely going to try using that helmet mounted since I'm getting both road and mountain versions. Also since the line of sight distances are probably a lot greater on my desert trails than the forest environment you ride in I'm more comfortable that the 80 max. lux of the trail lighthead should be adequate for all but the fastest trails I ride. Patiently waiting, Thanks for doing this for us!
    Mole
    That 150 lux on a typical TIR spot optic with a 2000 lumen source sounds about right to me. I was getting some high readings like that too on even some of the cheaper chinese lights, thing is that all of that light was compressed into such a tiny area that even though it had high lux, it was nearly un-rideable. Like riding with a laser pointer compared to the Trail optic.

    Still looking forward to seeing what you think about having the massive field of vision with the trail despite a lower peak lux then what you think is acceptable. It's amazing what contrast ratio reduction will do for our eyes in terms of what "feels" brighter compared to something else when in person and in motion (in regards to just looking at pictures and numbers).
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  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    That 150 lux on a typical TIR spot optic with a 2000 lumen source sounds about right to me. I was getting some high readings like that too on even some of the cheaper chinese lights, thing is that all of that light was compressed into such a tiny area that even though it had high lux, it was nearly un-rideable. Like riding with a laser pointer compared to the Trail optic.

    Still looking forward to seeing what you think about having the massive field of vision with the trail despite a lower peak lux then what you think is acceptable. It's amazing what contrast ratio reduction will do for our eyes in terms of what "feels" brighter compared to something else when in person and in motion (in regards to just looking at pictures and numbers).
    You'll definitely get feedback on what I think + in a few months on how your lights work in 100 degree ride temps.
    Mole

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    That 150 lux on a typical TIR spot optic with a 2000 lumen source sounds about right to me. I was getting some high readings like that too on even some of the cheaper chinese lights, thing is that all of that light was compressed into such a tiny area that even though it had high lux, it was nearly un-rideable. Like riding with a laser pointer compared to the Trail optic.

    Still looking forward to seeing what you think about having the massive field of vision with the trail despite a lower peak lux then what you think is acceptable. It's amazing what contrast ratio reduction will do for our eyes in terms of what "feels" brighter compared to something else when in person and in motion (in regards to just looking at pictures and numbers).
    What was the distance for those lux readings?

    I'd like so see lux readings for both of these lights from centerline to 10-15. How well the lights fill their spill would say a lot about how ubiquitous bike light optics can't live up to the needs of cyclists, even when they are some of the best optics available.
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  30. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    What was the distance for those lux readings?
    For german StVZO measurements 10m are standard.

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    Maybe I missed it, but how do people plan on running a helmet mount with the 6400mAh battery? Battery in a jersey pocket or pack?
    Or, how would the road/trail combo pack work with 1 battery?

    Currently I have a bar/helmet setup with smaller 3200mAh batteries so my helmet battery is on the back of my helmet.

  32. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Maybe I missed it, but how do people plan on running a helmet mount with the 6400mAh battery? Battery in a jersey pocket or pack?
    Or, how would the road/trail combo pack work with 1 battery?

    Currently I have a bar/helmet setup with smaller 3200mAh batteries so my helmet battery is on the back of my helmet.
    I certainly don't mean to speak for Matt, but the lightheads in the Road and Trail combo are intended to be used one at a time, not simultaneously. Ideally this would be for someone commuting on pavement and also riding trails. If you want to run them simultaneously, best to purchase separate road and trail packages, with 2 battery packs.

    Helmet mounted, Matt had mentioned carrying the battery in your pack (a jersey pocket would probably work as well, subject to cable length).

    At least this is what I had understood after chatting with Matt about these and numerous other questions I had the other evening.

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    Outbound Lighting Focal Series ---- Discussion ----

    Quote Originally Posted by mtnbkrmike View Post
    I certainly don't mean to speak for Matt, but the lightheads in the Road and Trail combo are intended to be used one at a time, not simultaneously. Ideally this would be for someone commuting on pavement and also riding trails. If you want to run them simultaneously, best to purchase separate road and trail packages, with 2 battery packs.

    Helmet mounted, Matt had mentioned carrying the battery in your pack (a jersey pocket would probably work as well, subject to cable length).

    At least this is what I had understood after chatting with Matt about these and numerous other questions I had the other evening.
    Thanks for confirming that.

    So for mtb use with dual lights would it be recommended to run a trail on the helmet as well or is that more of a preference? I currently have a spread beam on my bars and a spot beam on the helmet and it works pretty well for me.
    I know the design behind this is to only need 1 light, but I like redundancy and being able to see something off the side of the trail despite where my bars are pointed if need be.

  34. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Thanks for confirming that.

    So for mtb use with dual lights would it be recommended to run a trail on the helmet as well or is that more of a preference? I currently have a spread beam on my bars and a spot beam on the helmet and it works pretty well for me.
    Provided I understood his advice correctly, I believe that ideally, you would run a road on the helmet and a trail on the bar, which would be consistent with the beam pattern you are currently running. Two trails would work however, as would one trail only on the bar (which Matt seemed quite confident would work very adequately for most applications). One road on the bar might prove to be challenging on anything fast and twisty.

    Hopefully I am not mis-stating anything we discussed.

  35. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Thanks for confirming that.

    So for mtb use with dual lights would it be recommended to run a trail on the helmet as well or is that more of a preference? I currently have a spread beam on my bars and a spot beam on the helmet and it works pretty well for me.
    From what I interpret from this extensive discussion on these new lights, it sounds like the light spread on the trail edition would potentially be significantly broader (and more evenly spread) than most (or is it all?) lights on the market. So this means that if you are currently happy with a wide beam on the bars and a spot on your helmet, the light to replace may be the one on the bars, and leave your current long throw spotlight on your head. As mtnbkrmike stated above, none of us can speak for Matt, and my guess is that before too long you'll get a reply directly from the source.

    I do remember him saying somewhere that although these lights can absolutely be mounted to helmets, they were primarily designed with handlebar mount in mind.

    -Jeremy

  36. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunnelrat81 View Post
    I do remember him saying somewhere that although these lights can absolutely be mounted to helmets, they were primarily designed with handlebar mount in mind.
    Yikes. Yes. That is consistent with my discussions as well.

    I think that came up more or less when he mentioned that for most, the trail lighthead on the bar only would more than suffice. In my circumstances, he mentioned I could supplement that with my Nite Rider 750 Lumina Micro (for the 5 or so minutes that it remained bright enough, anyway, lol). Or, I could use a road (or trail) lighthead on my helmet, but a longer cable than the standard one may be required to carry the battery in a pack. And it would likely be overkill.

    I'm not going to comment anymore for fear I may be misstating something.

  37. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunnelrat81 View Post
    From what I interpret from this extensive discussion on these new lights, it sounds like the light spread on the trail edition would potentially be significantly broader (and more evenly spread) than most (or is it all?) lights on the market. So this means that if you are currently happy with a wide beam on the bars and a spot on your helmet, the light to replace may be the one on the bars, and leave your current long throw spotlight on your head. As mtnbkrmike stated above, none of us can speak for Matt, and my guess is that before too long you'll get a reply directly from the source.

    I do remember him saying somewhere that although these lights can absolutely be mounted to helmets, they were primarily designed with handlebar mount in mind.

    -Jeremy
    Well, road and trail pre-ordered anyway . Im gonna give it a go. Love the engineering behind this project.

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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Well, road and trail pre-ordered anyway . Im gonna give it a go. Love the engineering behind this project.
    I have a road edition on order as well, and am as anxious as anyone for it to show up. Their approach to design and execution is as encouraging to me as the product they are offering. Lots of industries have been in a race to the bottom, so seeing a company trying to do it right is like a breath of fresh air. It's worth it for me to buy a light for that reason alone, in hopes that they succeed and can bring future products to market.

    Sadly, however, the light is for my wife...which means that she'll get most of the joy out of it and I get to negotiate with her whenever I want to borrow it.

    -Jeremy

  39. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by farfromovin View Post
    Well, road and trail pre-ordered anyway . Im gonna give it a go. Love the engineering behind this project.
    I ordered road and trail too. I plan on trying the road version for helmet use but hard to predict how it will work because it was design specifically as a bar mounted road light so light distribution and beam shape may or may not work well for this use. Maximum lux numbers are very good for the road version (for a 1500 lumen light) so it has the potential for very good throw but will require actual ride testing to see how well it works. I have several other lights that I consider possible good matches for helmet use paired with the trail version which I'll test also but hope the road version will work since I know the tint match will be exact on it. We can all speculate but till the lights are delivered Matt is the only real reliable source of information at the moment.
    Mole

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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    I ordered road and trail too. I plan on trying the road version for helmet use but hard to predict how it will work because it was design specifically as a bar mounted road light so light distribution and beam shape may or may not work well for this use. Maximum lux numbers are very good for the road version (for a 1500 lumen light) so it has the potential for very good throw but will require actual ride testing to see how well it works. I have several other lights that I consider possible good matches for helmet use paired with the trail version which I'll test also but hope the road version will work since I know the tint match will be exact on it. We can all speculate but till the lights are delivered Matt is the only real reliable source of information at the moment.
    Mole
    Hope Matt is right and the trail version is exactly all any reasonable rider needs. If thats the case Im still happy just having a tint matching spot on my helmet for trailside repairs, backup light source, blinding buddies, etc...

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    Good job!

    Dang it, I spend the day working on the production space and thread blows up.

    For the helmet mount stuff, I have an extension cord (not on the website yet) that is about 30" long so that a battery can sit in a backpack or a hip pack for use on a helmet. Would like to have a helmet specific mount in the future, but there wasn't much demand for one right now, plus the 4 cell pack might be a little heavy up there. If sales do well, can afford a run of 2 cell helmet-specific type packs, but for now cash flow is just too tight to make another option at the moment.

    The Trail or the Road will be perfectly fine on a helmet. The road has a higher peak lux, and could be aimed up a bit higher so that the cutoff isn't as noticeable. If looking straight ahead, a road + trail on the bars would be a peak lux of around 230-250 based on prelim tests. What is cool about either version on the helmet is not only the tint matching perfectly, but the light carpet is still in effect, and really does make for a feeling of total vision as you look around combined with the bar light. I don't think anyone would be disappointed with either versions on the helmet.

    --------------------------

    The Road & Trail combo on the website is indeed meant for those who do both trail and road riding on two different bikes, want to have lights specific for each need, and want to save a bit by not having another battery. I wouldn't recommend the road version on a trail, just because the Trail edition is designed specifically for it, but you won't die, and it won't be the worst thing. It'll still be miles better than a typical cheap spot light. I just wouldn't be comparing it to a Seca 2500.

    Nor would I be recommending the trail version on the road because it's not as focused to overcome ambient light, and doesn't have the cutoff. However it too will still be better than a typical bike light.

    Hopefully this helps clear some things up!
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    Also forgot to mention, I am going to try and get more updated lux values for all of you. Will be setting up a little test area in my backyard shining into the woods with posts marked off at various degrees as requested in here. Was going to do it tonight but it's pouring rain right now. :/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Also forgot to mention, I am going to try and get more updated lux values for all of you. Will be setting up a little test area in my backyard shining into the woods with posts marked off at various degrees as requested in here. Was going to do it tonight but it's pouring rain right now. :/
    Rain sucks, for bike riding anyway. Definitely looking forward to more raw data on your lights. Estimating how they will work is difficult because your "carpet of light" concept is so different to what we are used to. Thanks for keeping us updated.
    Mole

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    I'm still interested, and still curious... Near field. Almost all cutoff lights have uneven near field, their "carpet" starts at around 4 meters. Could you boast about your near field efforts (for the road version)? Could you comment my nerdy understanding, why it's uneven?

    1. Design/manufacturing accuracy.

    (For Philips SR80, the bottom half of the main pattern is (seems to me) created by a relatively small upper reflector part closer to LEDs you can notice a change in stripes slope; most of the reflector surface is for the upper pattern half the cutoff area).

    The near field could have been created by a very thin reflector strip very close to LED. (very thin because for the near field adjustment, very little light is needed). However, (a) because this thin strip must reflect light to larger range of angles than "far beam" reflector parts, and (b) because of the proximity to (finite-sized=big) LED, this strip (its curvatures) must be designed, manufactured and positioned much, much more precisely than major "far beam" reflector surface. Too much troubles. Am I right here?

    Did you unlike essentially everybody else took the time and efforts for this tiny strip?

    2. Cars-oriented software.

    It looks to me that one should separate the simulation of near and far angles to not wait huge time for relatively rare near-field rays, and instead, just concentrate on them, ignoring the would-be-"overexposed" cutoff area. (somehow identify LED rays angles range that will contribute to cutoff area, and specify it to ignore it).

    Does cars-oriented (where near field is not needed) software allow such a separate simulation of selected rays range? Did you use it?

    3. Narrow angles for direct-LED-visible near-field illumination.

    This is different, it's about width (not about uniformity) of illumination. Best described by a picture:

    Notice the blue angle for SR80 is larger, so better. (of course, this direct-LED-visible illumination should be further adjusted by reflector to make it even; alas, this has not been done). How about this idea to make these 2 "extension discontinuities", is it good?

    Many words, sorry And thanks again!
    Last edited by abvgdee; 03-20-2018 at 07:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    I'm still interested, and still curious... Near field. Almost all cutoff lights have uneven near field, their "carpet" starts at around 4 meters. Could you boast about your near field efforts (for the road version)? Could you comment my nerdy understanding, why it's uneven?

    1. Design/manufacturing accuracy.

    (For Philips SR80, the bottom half of the main pattern is (seems to me) created by a relatively small upper reflector part closer to LEDs you can notice a change in stripes slope; most of the reflector surface is for the upper pattern half the cutoff area).

    The near field could have been created by a very thin reflector strip very close to LED. However, (a) because this thin strip must reflect light to larger range of angles than "far beam" reflector parts, and (b) because of the proximity to (finite-sized=big) LED, this strip (its curvatures) must be designed, manufactured and positioned much, much more precisely than major "far beam" reflector surface. Too much troubles. Am I right here?

    Did you unlike essentially everybody else took the time and efforts for this tiny strip?

    2. Cars-oriented software.

    It looks to me that one should separate the simulation of near and far angles to not wait huge time for relatively rare near-field rays, and instead, just concentrate on them, ignoring the would-be-"overexposed" cutoff area. (somehow identify LED rays angles range that will contribute to cutoff area, and specify it to ignore it).

    Does cars-oriented (where near field is not needed) software allow such a separate simulation of selected rays range? Did you use it?

    3. Narrow angles for direct-LED-visible near-field illumination.

    This is different, it's about width (not about uniformity) of illumination. Best described by a picture:

    Notice the blue angle for SR80 is larger, so better. (of course, this direct-LED-visible illumination should be further adjusted by reflector to make it even; alas, this has not been done). How about this idea to make these 2 "extension discontinuities", is it good?

    Many words, sorry And thanks again!
    I will try and get some better visuals later tonight, but I can't speak for all other types of lights and their uneven near field, but I will say it is quite challenging to control. It is why we went through 3 different production tools.

    The reflector size makes it near impossible to get a proper prototype done since we are talking reflector facets that are 4mm x 4mm on the cutoff version, and 1.5mm x 1.5mm on the trail version. They have to be polished to a very high spec before being metalized. We attempted some 3D printed parts and then metalizing and it confirmed we were in the general ballpark, but was nowhere near as accurate as an actual tooled part coming from a mold.

    So manufacturing plays a big part in it, as well as the actual reflector facet size. You'll notice on a lot of cheaper lights the facets are actually quite large, this is because it's far easier to polish a mold when the facets are large, but then that means you only have a few faces to re-image the light source. It can get tough to try and explain just through words in layman terms, but have to consider that the primary job of the reflector facet is to project the source image in a different direction, as well as a stretch/squish the image itself to create a beam pattern. So lots of facets provide lots of opportunities to squish/stretch the source image until it is nearly seamless and hard to tell which facet is doing what. But if you only have half a dozen facets then it can be real easy to tell what facet is doing what (similar to what you figured out on the saferide). So that is a design tradeoff between beam pattern control/blending, and initial tooling costs.

    I hattttteeee artifacts, especially when it can be avoided. So there are some heavy textured sections of the reflector to make sure that there isn't hotspots. In fact here is a picture taken. The stakes pictured are at 10m and 10* interval spacing. The bike is on sort of a lean so it looks lopsided, and the camera isn't picking up the 5-10 lux that is visible at the 40* mark and the few lux visible at the 50* mark outside the view of the camera. But it shows the evenness of the trail light carpet (very similar to the road).

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----28939167_10100278011715303_252610032_o-1-.jpg

    As for the reflector design for nearfield/far field, I can't say there are hard and fast rules because there are thousands of different ways that a source image can get re-imaged to achieve the desired effect. That is why there are entire subsections of engineering dedicated to Optical Engineering, massive conferences every year for automotive lighting techniques, and whole books written on it. This is an example of what I mean by source image redirection:

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----sourceimage.jpg

    Except in that case, the source is a halogen filament, which is basically a cylinder. While in LED cases, the source is a small square (or rectangle in my case). The whole science of improving efficiency with lighting doesn't apply just to cars and bikes. Also things like streelights, office spaces, home lighting, etc. are all starting to see optical illumination engineering take hold to maximize light output. This is an example from a whitepaper I have showing the difference between a traditional street light with a spot/polar type optic (what almost every bike light is), and an engineered optic that puts light exactly where it's needed. Notice the power required difference. This means that it can use a far lower lumen light to achieve the exact same output where it's required. It's how the trail version is batting alongside the Seca 2500 despite nearly half the power.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----directing.jpg

    ----------------------

    As for the software, still have to consider the whole beam pattern, though often I would focus on just a select key areas and tweak. Even by setting target beam angles and spreads by one or two degrees can drastically change the whole system, or by changing the focal length. There are a lot of cool things that can be done once really understand the software. It is like any other CAD modeling software. Can you do some basic stuff with it without much knowledge? Yep. Can you really get a high quality model that fully exploits the software within a week or two? Noooope. Took me almost 2-3 years of working with it almost everyday to feel really proficient with it to the point I'm comfortable developing all kinds of optics whether it's reflector, solid, TIR, light pipes, etc.

    -----------

    As for the direct LED visibility, it was a design tradeoff between the outer lens, light to be redirected forwards, and the light on the ground in front. The reflector itself does fill in the area that the LED isn't visible as well as the blending lens itself tosses some more light further to the side than what is directly visible. Plus if you push the LED further towards the edge of the light, that is a LOT of light energy that is going to be wasted directly on the front tire. B&M does a decent job of redirecting it with a tiny little lens that sits in front of the LED on their IQ series, but it also contributes to an uneven nearfield.
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    Outbound,

    I think that this is a good example of where art meets science. You need an intuitive grasp of the science to put it all into perspective.

    Scott Novak

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    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I will try and get some better visuals later tonight...
    Yes, please. This last trail-version photo looks great (it's without lens?). I'd like to see a similar shot for road version. In fact, I don't see here any road version photos. The last (third) photo from your post#189 is it road, old mold, and tilted up?

    However, my curiosity is far from being quenched! You mention manufacturing difficulties polishing smaller facets. But this only exacerbates the near field! (for reasons I wrote above "However, (a) because..."). You didn't comment that my (I'd say key) paragraph, and you forgot to boast how you managed to get the near field then! (especially if it's so much aggravated by manufacturing difficulties)

    Source image redirection from Optical conferences it's not about your design? I thought your design is kind of "classic" similar to SR80 (or most other headlights) reflector, with (modern dome-less) rectangular LED, and with horizontally-tossing front lens. Sorry if I missed something great...

    As to 2. software "select angles range" and 3. direct LED visibility all clear, thanks!

  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    Thank you!


    Yes, please. This last trail-version photo looks great (it's without lens?). I'd like to see a similar shot for road version. In fact, I don't see here any road version photos. The last (third) photo from your post#189 is it road, old mold, and tilted up?

    However, my curiosity is far from being quenched! You mention manufacturing difficulties polishing smaller facets. But this only exacerbates the near field! (for reasons I wrote above "However, (a) because..."). You didn't comment that my (I'd say key) paragraph, and you forgot to boast how you managed to get the near field then! (especially if it's so much aggravated by manufacturing difficulties)

    Source image redirection from Optical conferences it's not about your design? I thought your design is kind of "classic" similar to SR80 (or most other headlights) reflector, with (modern dome-less) rectangular LED, and with horizontally-tossing front lens. Sorry if I missed something great...

    As to 2. software "select angles range" and 3. direct LED visibility all clear, thanks!
    Had been avoiding posting a more recent road reflector because the older photos were using an 1x4 chip, and the newer 1x5 chip has made it much better. However still waiting on the blending lens. We got photos of the successful shot with the correct material, but they need to modify the tool since some tolerances were out of specced range (not on the optic itself however) so yet again, another week until we have some of the lens production samples in our hands.

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    However I grabbed the camera and fired off some shots. First up is a wall shot showing the uniformity. The light bleed you see above the cutoff is 100% intentional, this is a small bleed of light that illuminates road signs, car reflectors, pedestrian reflectors and more. It is not glaring or causes glaring to oncoming traffic, but lets you ride more comfortably. This is a defacto standard in automotive lighting and required by law (this is why a lot of aftermarket HID projectors fail certification tests actually) for the purpose of sign marking. Otherwise can see why I am waiting on my blending lens. It'll soften up the outer edges and bleed the light together as shown in the simulations I've posted earlier.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----road-reflector-wall.jpg

    Next up is a shot of the light aimed maybe 7-8m away towards my garage door. Shows the uniformity of the nearfield (and the width) as well as the sharp cutoff. Keen eyes can spot the small sign marking light bleed. Notice how it's not as "bright" as it seemed on the up close wall shot? And how some jagged edges on the up close shot seem to melt away at distance? This is why an up close wall shot can help give some clues to how the light is designed, but it won't tell the whole story on how it actually performs when illuminating objects in the real world.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----road-reflector-actual.jpg

    Here is the other reason why I am anxiously awaiting the blending lens. The annoying darker gaps to the left and right when showing the further downrange shots I know people would jump on as not being great. But here you go. This is pointed down my driveway, the neighbors lawn is probably 20 meters away.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----road-reflector-actual-downroad.jpg

    ------------------------------------

    Now for some more reflector details.

    The nearfield isn't really some super secret earth shattering new tech that is "patent pending" (like a friend of ours on here a while ago. ). It is just a culmination of designing with it in mind, as a primary goal, along with some amazing manufacturing partners who can bring my rather complex reflector to life. The complexity isn't in the shape, it's in the very well made faces that are adhering to the strict curvature that was designed. The earlier issues with the trail reflector were corrected with a small secondary reflector strip similar to what you were discussing with the Saferide I believe. Tiny change, but required a whole new tool, and a whole lot more money. But it fixed it completely.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----trail-reflector.jpg

    The Road reflector was actually a bit easier to get the nearfield all blended up on the second try (vs the third on the trail), but larger facets do make it a bit easier to control vs the thousands of facets approach that I used on the trail. Here is a GIF that I put together that shows the source image (the yellow LED face) being reflected on the reflector. Can see how different reflectors are doing different work as the light is rotated through. Then once you get level with it, can't see the LED chip source image anymore.




    -----------------

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by Outbound; 03-21-2018 at 07:43 AM.
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    Yes, thanks. It's not that I was trying to get you acknowledge I'm right. I just was curious (all have problems in the near, why?)

    So the trail reflector on the photo is the third version? And the strip is still made of facets? (in SR it's really a smooth (unused) strip, no facets) Is it the very top row?

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    Which variant of the A1SB is used?
    And when was this chip introduced?
    I guess 2016, since that's written on the data sheets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angerdan View Post
    Which variant of the A1SB is used?
    And when was this chip introduced?
    I guess 2016, since that's written on the data sheets.
    We'll be using the 5 die H bin variant, with a target lumen of 1500 and color code 4A which is the warmest white in production right now.

    It was introduced in 2016, but couldn't even get our hands on them until mid 2017. Datasheets are always published well in advance of when production parts can even be acquired. You'll see these chips on a lot of OEM headlights in 2019-2020 cars. Most headlight designs are 3 years ahead of the car model year.
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    Posting over what I sent to all our Kickstarter backers regarding the current shipping status of the lights.

    Hey everyone!

    So the end of March is upon us. We were hoping to be shipping these incredible lights out to you by now, but seems we got ahead of ourselves a bit. However the good news is that we werent too far off. I guess Ill start this off with the bad news, it is currently looking like we will not be shipping until the middle of May 2018. The reason for this is mostly out of our control, though our desire for quality is what also caused the slippage.

    When we were quoting the project in November prior to launch, our electrical component supplier was confident that the main LEDs had a lead time of roughly 8-10 weeks. The LED was the longest lead item, and so we felt confident that placing an order shortly after the new year would give us plenty of breathing room to meet the late March deadline we imposed. Samples of the chip were hard to come by since they are a special order item direct from the manufacture, and we finally received them near the beginning of the year. We found a few issues that needed correction and testing before we could place the order for the PCB boards. Once we completed testing and validation we placed the order near the end of January only to find out that the lead time on the LEDs had gone from a potential of 8-10 weeks, to 16 weeks.

    We mulled over the thought of changing the LED, or switching to 5 individual ones, but simulations showed nothing would perform as good as original LED combined with the reflector we had already spent a significant amount of money retooling to get just right. We arrived at the decision to just stick with the game plan, even though it will slip our shipping date by several weeks. We trust that you can understand our frustration and are okay with us putting quality over meeting the target date.

    -----------------------------------------------

    Though we have run into issues regarding the production date of our PCBs, everything else regarding the light is humming right along! As I mentioned in a previous update, we got the batteries, pouches, input wires, and extension cords at the beginning of the month. Now we have ALL our silicone, plastic, and die cast parts. A combined total of over 10,000 individual parts waiting to be assembled. The custom carrying cases are fresh off the boat and en-route to our location as we speak. The silicone lens and reflectors are the only parts that we are waiting on. Those are just a week or two away as well.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----ks01.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----ks02.jpg

    In the meantime, production did start with several sub-assembly steps completed. Things such as the silicone light pipe and enclosure assembled, the straps put into the bar mount scoop, and putting the batteries into the pouches. These are steps that take hours to do (especially when doing 500 of them!) but will set us up so that when the PCBs arrive, we can very quickly assemble the last few steps and get these products out the door to you!

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    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----ks05.jpg

    We also have placed the order for the t-shirts for our backers who ordered them. These are being done by a local shop to us and are going to be very high quality. No 1-800-Get-Tshirts.com or anything here. These are shirts that should last quite a long time, and look great to boot! We plan on having these on sale on the website as well after the orders are going out in case you have friends who want to get one too!

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----ks06.jpg

    I look forward to giving you a few more updates before we get to close out this Kickstarter in full, and all of you get to be riding with the lights. We are all extremely anxious to get this product launched and get business rolling, however because we are an engineering company first, quality is the number one goal. Thank you all so much for your patience, can guarantee you will not be disappointed. 😊
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    ...it is currently looking like we will not be shipping until the middle of May 2018. The reason for this is mostly out of our control,...
    This is an all too frequent problem in the electronics industry, especially with small startups. It's difficult to imagine all of the different problems that can occur.

    A large manufacturer can put in an order for huge quantities of the part that you need and the lead time that you were promised gets bumped way out into the future while the large company gets the parts that you were promised. Then when you do actually receive your parts they might not meet their specifications and you have to return them. Or they misread your order and made you the wrong version of the part which doesn't fit your PWB.

    Then the parts companies also have their own supply and equipment problems, not to mention possible strikes by employees.

    I can remember back in the late 1990's auto manufacturers started putting hundreds of semiconductors into autos, often performing
    unnecessary things such as auto dimming interior lights, etc. It caused a semiconductor shortage and computer power supply manufacturers were scrambling to find the semiconductors to keep their production lines running. There was the grey market where people were selling semiconductors at prices way above the manufacturers price. Basically they were scalping semiconductors.

    So have some empathy and patience for Outbound Lighting.

    Scott Novak
    Last edited by Scott Novak; 03-27-2018 at 12:30 PM.

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    How about an grey or even white t-shirt?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post
    This is an all too frequent problem in the electronics industry, especially with small startups. It's difficult to imagine all of the different problems that can occur.
    Certainly is. We anticipated some delays, but not this big. Was a bummer, but nothing much we can do except accept it and keep pushing forward. Can't get mad at our supplier since they are beholden to the components distributor, who are beholden to the original source, if not another layer or two of sales in between.

    However it is one of the reasons we selected a PCBA supplier that is only a few hours away rather than overseas. They are a few bucks more expensive, but the ability to meet directly with them, check out the assembly process, meet the employees, and get them excited about the product is well worth the couple thousand in savings.

    How about an grey or even white t-shirt?
    Certainly a possibility in the future. Right now just doing a run of enough shirts to go around for the Kickstarter backers who ordered it, some to sell on the site, and some for personal use. Once we are shipping and finally "open for business" we can definitely look into more colors and designs.
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    Got our first run of t-shirts in! These feel absolutely incredible. Kyle (ZenkiS14) refused to let me compromise on the shirts to save a few bucks. I'm glad he did! Literally the most comfortable shirt I own now. Just happy it has my company logo on there.

    Anyways, if you guys want them, they are available on the webstore now and shipping!

    AVAILABLE HERE!

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----tshirtfrontks.jpg

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----tshirtbackks.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----tshirtback.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Got our first run of t-shirts in! These feel absolutely incredible. Kyle (ZenkiS14) refused to let me compromise on the shirts to save a few bucks. I'm glad he did! Literally the most comfortable shirt I own now. Just happy it has my company logo on there.

    Anyways, if you guys want them, they are available on the webstore now and shipping!

    AVAILABLE HERE!

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I saw the email, hopefully yours is in the wash now after 3 days of use

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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    hahahaha I wore mine for 3 days straight...it was glorious.

    Edit: WTF at the product pics on website! Ugh, lol FML

  59. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Got our first run of t-shirts in!
    Caps. You need caps. I need a cap. No mesh.
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  60. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenkiS14 View Post
    hahahaha I wore mine for 3 days straight...it was glorious.

    Edit: WTF at the product pics on website! Ugh, lol FML
    Um... I wouldnt have admitted that. Outbound at least has an excuse for wearing the same clothes for 3 days.

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    Life on a bike doesn't begin till the sun goes down.

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  61. #361
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    Anticipating the arrival of my new Outbound lights I got an accessory for the road version!
    Mole

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----001.jpg

  62. #362
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    Not only do you have a huge assortment of lights, you have a huge selection of bikes!!
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  63. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Not only do you have a huge assortment of lights, you have a huge selection of bikes!!
    Are you realllllyyyyy a biker if you don't though?
    Outbound Lighting!
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  64. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Are you realllllyyyyy a biker if you don't though?
    In my case "hoarder" may be a more appropriate term!
    Mole

  65. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    In my case "hoarder" may be a more appropriate term!
    Mole
    Checkmate (3 bikes in the other room...lol)




  66. #366
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    ok thats my dream "man cave" right there lol.
    Life on a bike doesn't begin till the sun goes down.

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  67. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    Are you realllllyyyyy a biker if you don't though?
    True! I only have 4 and sad to say only 2 are in active rotation
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  68. #368
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    Got myself a lightbox a week or two ago, and finally got some time to update the product photos!

    Good news is that we are on the schedule with the PCBA production facility in Kansas City for early to mid-May. Barring any issues that come up in assembly (very low risk) we are on track to have all the orders fulfilled by the end of May!

















    Outbound Lighting!
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  69. #369
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    Awesome news!!!

  70. #370
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    Damn the anticipation is overwhelming. I wanna light up the streets!!! Looks amazing!

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  71. #371
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    I think it's time for an email update (for those that don't hit the forum thread.

    Seriously, I just want to hear you say again that shipments will be going out SOON...
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  72. #372
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    Yea, we'll try to get an email blast out soon. We have been sending updates via Kickstarter.

  73. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    I think it's time for an email update (for those that don't hit the forum thread.

    Seriously, I just want to hear you say again that shipments will be going out SOON...
    I agree.

    Will put something together tomorrow morning to blast both KS and email to the pre-orders.

    Overall things are still looking up. Awaiting the final production date of the PCB's which will occur within the next week or two. In the meantime all of our reflectors and lenses showed up, which means we have every single "hard" part in stock and ready to go. Literally only waiting on the PCB's.

    Our shipping boxes also arrived, custom made locally and stamped with our logo. Surprisingly after the initial logo fee, it's the same price as buying a generic box from ULine. So everything will be shipped in a perfect fitting box for the carrying case. I'm kinda proud of it. Looks killer.

    We also underwent some pretty extreme thermal and water ingress testing. Thermally handled things like a champ. In the extreme heat and no air movement, the integrated thermistor does it's job and pulls back power when it detects the LED getting too hot. Water ingress was an interesting story.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----water-intrusion.jpg

    On the IP4 setting it worked great, no obvious signs of water intrustion. IP4 rating states "Water splashing against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effect." However once we ramped the testing up to IP5 water was starting to get in. IP5 is powerful water jets spraying against the housing in all directions. I'll get a video of the testing up soon on the YouTube channel, but it was a pretty intense water pressure jet spraying directly onto the status light pipe section. Some teardown reveals that the water was starting to get in from that section, as well as some fogging due to the extreme humidity difference.

    Outbound Lighting Focal Series  ---- Discussion -----water-intrusion-02.jpg

    So I am REALLY glad we did this testing, I have a number of things that will be done to prevent water intrusion, and make it truly IP5 or IP6 rated for water ingress. We will be adding an automotive gore patch to the housing after machining out a small hole to allow the pressure differential to be equal between the outside and inside. This means on a rainy day or really humid day, the pressure can equalize and prevent the inside of the light fogging up.

    We will also be adding the additional step of conformal coating the driver board to add an extra layer of protection and reliability. I am not aware of any other bike lights that are currently doing this, although fairly common in the automotive space.

    There are two other things I will be doing to address water ingress around the status light to prevent it from happening period.

    Good news is that none of these things will delay production at all. They are all just steps that are being added to the production process. We don't have to redesign any parts, or tool up new parts.

    ----------------------------

    I hope this does show that when we say we are testing our lights, we aren't simply just running them under a faucet for a second or two and calling it IP69 rated, or hitting it with a garden hose like you see in almost every bike light review. Real IP rating testing is quite unforgiving. I'll get the video up soon, but you'll be surprised how intense IP4 and IP5 water intrusion testing is, it's really high pressure and high intensity streams of water blasting the housing from all sides.

    Testing like this is what we believe will really set our lights apart. When we say reliable and durable, we mean it.
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  74. #374
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    Outbound,

    You don't see conformal coating very often with consumer grade or aftermarket electronics. Normally that is reserved for military, industrial, medical, or other high reliability electronics.

    About the only thing that you haven't done yet is to pot the electronics in thermally conductive potting compound. That not only drastically improves thermal transfer, but it also drastically improves vibrational resistance. But it's possible that your mount may provide enough isolation that it won't prove necessary.

    If you ever do decide to pot your electronics do NOT give in to temptation and try to cure it faster at elevated temperatures. That can cause swelling of the potting compound which can deform the case and/or put addition pressure against some components. Room temperature cure only.

    Those water tests are impressive.

    I used a gallon jug to pour water on a Serfas taillight at a distance of 1 foot. A serious amount of water ingressed around the power switch. I've had their tailights fail before due to water infiltration on the PWB, which caused a conductive layer to form across the PWB that shorted out part of the circuit and caused it to fail.

    It's refreshing to see a manufacturer that actually cares about reliability.

    Scott Novak

  75. #375
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    Your transparency is refreshing! Everything about this light looks awesome, every detail is in place. One of the rare occasions when you are buying something without that 'if they only did it like that' moments.
    Great job guys!

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk
    Last edited by MrBucan; 2 Weeks Ago at 11:00 PM.

  76. #376
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    Thanks for the kind words guys. Will admit I was super bummed out for like an hour or so when it was failing the testing. Then realized well, glad I caught it now rather than after we've shipped 180 of these things! As well as the fact it was an easy fix, won't add a lot of cost, and will only increase reliability.

    I really honestly don't want any of these lights returned for failures or anything, it's just a big headache for business. I'd rather be focused on designing the NEXT great light instead of dealing with warranty and returns. So if it means a couple more bucks per light, and a few more minutes of production time... worth it.
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  77. #377
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    Is there something special about the PCB's that there are component supply issues? We can get new custom ones at work for a LED project we're working on in no time.

  78. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cerpss View Post
    Is there something special about the PCB's that there are component supply issues? We can get new custom ones at work for a LED project we're working on in no time.
    Guess I am probably using some poorly picked terminology. The PCB's themselves showed up in no time, it's all the components that have the long lead time. Notably the actual LED chips themselves.

    Funny story that actually. I now realize why the lead time probably shot up tremendously, all the new 2019 RAM 1500 LED headlights have the Altilon chips in them. So I have a feeling Automotive Lighting bought up most of the stock!
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  79. #379
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    Expected delivery date = ?

  80. #380
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    I'm curious about components back-order procedures. You place an order at a dealer (suppose the order is rather small, 500 LEDs), pay. And then what if the dealer doesn't ship the order by some date? During the order, can you demand some form of monetary warranty for not shipping the order by some date? I can imagine the dealer could "forward" any such monetary claims further to manufacturer. Or they normally explicitly disclaim any responsibilities?

  81. #381
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    You are pretty much at the mercy of the suppliers unless you are a huge company with lots of clout. They will promise you anything, but it arrives when it arrives. I would order from multiple suppliers and then when one batch arrived I would cancel the other orders that didn't arrive by the promised date. Even then the first order to arrive would be a month late. I once had to wait a year for a part that was promised a 6 week delivery time. Sometimes you have to buy on the grey market above the manufacturers wholesale price to even get any.

    At one company that I worked for we even had to change the design because we couldn't get the part in time.

    Scott A. Novak

  82. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    I'm curious about components back-order procedures. You place an order at a dealer (suppose the order is rather small, 500 LEDs), pay. And then what if the dealer doesn't ship the order by some date? During the order, can you demand some form of monetary warranty for not shipping the order by some date? I can imagine the dealer could "forward" any such monetary claims further to manufacturer. Or they normally explicitly disclaim any responsibilities?
    Like what Scott said, the electrical designer releases the bill of materials (BOM), the SMT production house goes over the BOM, works with big distributors like Arrow or Future Electronics to figure out the lead time on components. Even some very random components like a small capacitor might have a lead time of 18-26 weeks. So the SMT house and the designer go back and forth trying to eliminate the long lead items, this what delayed us at first, a few capacitors and small components got redesigned, and re-tested before releasing a final BOM to the SMT house.

    Then the components are ordered, the SMT house waits until everything arrives, then puts together production kits. Basically big carts that have all the components on reels that are ready to load into the SMT machine. Currently as of 5 days ago the LED board production kit was released to production and awaiting a production schedule date. I believe our driver board is about ready to get released into production as well.

    It is surprising to a lot of people that electrical stuff is often the longest lead items out there. But like scott said, we are at the mercy of the distributor essentially, and often they focus more on the multi-million dollar contracts rather than the breadcrumbs that small run stuff like ours gives them.

    Expected delivery date = ?
    Still at the mercy of the SMT supply house. Fingers crossed still delivering in less than 2 weeks. I'm getting anxious.
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  83. #383
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    The above all jives with my experiences too in getting specific electonic/electrical items. One conversation I had after finding out a timer relay had a 16 week lead time.

    Me: Why 16 weeks?
    Manufacturer: Well, not much demand.
    Me: Wanna know why you don't have much demand?
    Manufacturer: Uh, why?
    Me: Because your lead time is too long!

    Perfect Catch-22.

    And just like the above examples this required a minor board re-design because the footprint of the socket for a more easily available timer relay was larger. Delayed the project a bit and so on.

    Outbound appears to be doing as much as a small startup could be expected to do.
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  84. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post
    I once had to wait a year for a part that was promised a 6 week delivery time.
    I'm glad I don't promise to customers (or design) any electronics! May be manufacturers should really be more open about their fabrication capacities...

    Thank you guys for clarifications!

  85. #385
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    So funny we are having this discussion today. Literally just got an email from our SMT house saying that the LED board is set for production on Wednesday (7 jobs ahead of it on the schedule currently) however the main IC for the driver board was scheduled to show up on the 10th to the supplier and then immediately sent to the SMT house. However apparently it has not even left the factory yet. Just an example of the stuff that we have no control over.

    However LED boards basically done soon! I'm going to have to really clean up our assembly area more and get things in place. It's almost time to get cranking! Got 180+ orders to fulfill between the kickstarter backers and the pre-orders. I'm hoping to get at least 40-50 done a day, then allow the process improvements to kick in once we really start figuring out how to crank these things out. Target assembly time is under 10 minutes per light when done in batch construction. Part of the entire design of the light was to make it easy enough to assemble so that we'll basically never have to think about outsourcing our labor.

    Also to those of you on the fence. As soon as the first orders start going out to the kickstarter backers, the pre-ordering is over, and the discount is removed. So consider this a few week warning.
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    One saving grace is that circuit board quality has greatly improved. In the early 80's we would often see shorts between circuit foils because the etching wasn't complete. It was so bad that we tested EVERY single raw circuit board for shorts before sending the boards to assembly.

    Scott Novak

  87. #387
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    Hey Matt,
    Was wondering if you have parts available to put together a road and trail production sample with the 5x emitter and blending lens? Would be great if you could entertain us with some true to production beam shots and lux measurements while we wait (patiently).
    Mole

  88. #388
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    Yeeey, survey is out, so close to having the best light in my city if i only had ds500 at my back, to bad its discontinued Could you OL make something similar?
    Think i got hooked on bike lights

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  89. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    Hey Matt,
    Was wondering if you have parts available to put together a road and trail production sample with the 5x emitter and blending lens? Would be great if you could entertain us with some true to production beam shots and lux measurements while we wait (patiently).
    Mole
    I did go for a walk in my backyard with the trail version to give it a shot. I'm hoping to hit a trail here soon to get some good pics with a real camera instead of my iphone. Hard to find time with a 3 month old baby! It's still maddening that I will basically never pickup the very subtle light that your eye sees off to the side on a camera.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BizzLXuB...tboundlighting

    One neat thing about the silicone material and my curved lens design, is that it is throwing light beyond 180*. I honestly didn't really plan this in, but it's been a nice side effect. Is it enough to consider not using a helmet light if you like looking behind you to see 40' away? Nope. But it's enough that your periphery vision has light to work with and pick up objects near you, so with that combined with the large light field that fills the binocular vision really does make it so that your vision is almost tricked into thinking you are riding at sunset/low-light.

    I was feeling kinda bummed about missing our deadlines and the looming massive production schedule ahead, but getting outside and using the light that I've now spent over a year (and a lot of money) on designing and producing put a smile on my face. Really looking forward to others first impressions.
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  90. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBucan View Post
    Yeeey, survey is out, so close to having the best light in my city if i only had ds500 at my back, to bad its discontinued Could you OL make something similar?
    Think i got hooked on bike lights

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk
    I mean... if people really pay $230 for a tail light I'll have to seriously consider it!
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  91. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    I mean... if people really pay $230 for a tail light I'll have to seriously consider it!
    To be honest, that light was overpriced, but i like that you could make your own patterns and it was realy visible even during the day. But there is no need for programming in headlight if the lumen lvls are setup good. One could even say so for tail lights...

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  92. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrBucan View Post
    To be honest, that light was overpriced, ....
    Not a fair statement. Yes, the light was expensive, but not overpriced. Overpriced would imply that the manufacturer was taking excessive profit from the product and that it could sell for less. It is rare that a manufacturer ceases production of overly profitable products.

    I'm quite sure that Designshine looked at the hard costs associated with his product and the hours invested and realized that there was not enough profit in it to make it worthwhile to continue production.
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    My mistake, i guess i used wrong adjective, not my mother language so excuse me. I am sure the price was fair compared to his expenses, he made those lights in small numbers so costs must be higher compared to comercial lights. I just think something similar could be made at a lower price point. I dont make lights, so thats just my guess, but would like something similar.

    Sorry for the offtopic. There are still plenty of good tail lights, but not a lot of road lights, i dont know any at a price point of Focal Series with its features.

    Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

  94. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post

    I was feeling kinda bummed about missing our deadlines and the looming massive production schedule ahead, but getting outside and using the light that I've now spent over a year (and a lot of money) on designing and producing put a smile on my face. Really looking forward to others first impressions.
    Most new lights that I've ordered (especially preorders), even from existing manufacturers end up missing initial projected release dates. Part of the game that you shouldn't feel bad about. Taking the time to post pictures and explaining the situation always helps. Appreciate you keeping us informed!
    Mole

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    If you want to capture a photo which shows more of the low lux light off to the edge, you are going to need to perform some photographic trickery in the form of a high dynamic range (HDR) photo. You will need to put your camera on a tripod and depending on your camera's settings you may be able to just tell it to take an HDR photo or you may have to take 3 images with different exposure settings and then combine them together in your computer. Now this is a trick, no bones about it, but if you manually adjust your exposure and computer HDR settings and use the same settings every time, you will be able to make images which can honestly allow you to compare different light outputs from your light or a competitor's light. I have one of your lights on order and I have a lot of buddies with a wide range of lights so I am hoping to do a comparison review this summer with the above methodology.

    Thank you for the hard work and frequent status updates, you are filling me with much more confidence that this will be a good product than I have had from my previous Kickstarter experiences.
    Last edited by Precision Man; 4 Days Ago at 05:24 AM.

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    Offtopic below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Precision Man View Post
    I have one of your lights on order and I have a lot of buddies with a wide range of lights so I am hoping to do a comparison review this summer with the above methodology.
    Sounds like you are going to make it a (rather big) comparison database project.

    This methology is *certainly* better than no HDR, and better than no comparison, and is probably great for small light comparison job. But, if you consider it as a big *project*, there is a problem here:

    With your scenery, your camera and HDR software settings fixed by *your* setup, everybody is restricted to use such photos from *only you*. If I currently have a headlight that you don't have, and I'd like to see how a new light compares with it, your photos are useless for me.

    There are few additional downsides.
    1. What if I *love* the sharp cutoff, and I'd like to see, how much thinner the new cutoff is, compared with my old light? The whole cutoff line, its sides and the center. Essentially, I want the wall beamshot here.
    2. How much brighter the hotspot (or a bit above, or some other direction) of the new light is? In numbers, like 140lux vs. 90lux of my old light. Your HDR-blended greys (from that mega-powerful professional photo software) won't tell, even if it would be a wall shot.
    3. Next month that great public scenery place that you found, will be renovated, so all appearance will change. There is a new light that you absolutely want to add to your comparison database. Will you re-shoot all your old lights with new scenery?
    4. (new=UPD; re-phrase of the main problem) I want to contribute my beamshots to your project. Or you abandon your project in a year, and I want to take over it, and add my beamshots. But I live far away, I don't have your expensive photo software, and my camera has different beautifying contrast firmware. I can't, because everything is locked on you. Wouldn't it be sweet if people could add to and reuse your efforts?

    I think I see the solution. It's not easy, it's laborious. But it seems obvious to me...
    Last edited by abvgdee; 3 Days Ago at 05:47 AM. Reason: 4th downside added

  97. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by abvgdee View Post
    I want the wall beamshot here
    The purpose of the reflector design is to archive a great beam on the floor. Wall beamshots are useless to show the real beam shape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angerdan View Post
    The purpose of the reflector design is to archive a great beam on the floor. Wall beamshots are useless to show the real beam shape.
    Another problem with the wall shots with this light in particular is the blending lens. Up close on a wall it looks like a lot of artifacts and lines, however when in actual use, it all comes together in a homogeneous beam pattern. Can often see this with newer LED headlights on cars too. They look funky up close on a garage wall, but on the road all comes together.
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