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  1. #1
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    Open letter to Light manufacturers

    To getr what we want we have to tell the people who make, import, or design lights what we want.

    Most of all, I want self contained lights that can mount in more places. I do some off road touring. Handle bar mounted lights are not working out for that. The bag mounted on my bar either blocks the light, or reflects to much light back into my eyes. If my Light in Motion urban 800 had just one more hole in the band, I could mount it on my Fox fork below my bags.

    How about a bikepackers series of lights?

    For tail lights, I want an amber color light. A blinking light the color of a cars turn signal. Amber is becoming more popular with trash trucks, tow trucks, and buses. Cars are learning to take their foot off the gas when they see a blinking amber light. A cob light seems to be the best. Those directional high lumen lights are only visable from a limited angle. I dont need more lumes, I need a wider viewing angle. Forget the lumen war. How about a battery life war.

    How about a cob light in amber?

  2. #2
    Beer Please! SuperModerator
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    For the Handle Bar situation I bought this bar off ebay for $10 and I love it. Puts my lights up in front of my cables and I no longer get any light reflecting back at me.

    Flashlight handle bar holder - Anyone use one?
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  3. #3
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    I always enjoy reading threads like this.

    You are definitely right about the lack of need for a lumen war when it comes to tail lights, wide visability is more important than total brightness. Vehicle OEM's actually have specific candella targets to hit for a brake light and general tail light requirements because of this. Tails are one thing I'd like to try and make, however the profit margin on items like that is SO incredibly slim, it makes for a hard business case when a $10 imported one can do the job fairly well because of how simple it is.
    Outbound Lighting!
    THE WAIT IS OVER! SHIPPING NOW!

  4. #4
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    I'd also like more fork crown mounting options (for road use).

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    To getr what we want we have to tell the people who make, import, or design lights what we want.

    Most of all, I want self contained lights that can mount in more places. I do some off road touring. Handle bar mounted lights are not working out for that. The bag mounted on my bar either blocks the light, or reflects to much light back into my eyes. If my Light in Motion urban 800 had just one more hole in the band, I could mount it on my Fox fork below my bags.

    How about a bikepackers series of lights?
    Would something like this Zebralight work for you? Maybe you could modify the headstrap mount to fit your front bag (sew it on the bag?). Pictures of your ride setup might help get you some additional suggestions.

    H604w 18650 XHP35 Flood Neutral White Headlamp

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    Mole

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    .....Most of all, I want self contained lights that can mount in more places. .....
    Switch your lights to use GoPro mounts. There literally hundreds of different GoPro mounts on the market. Hard to imagine not being able to find one suitable for your need.

    I'm pretty sure that it would be difficult for many bikelight manufacturers to profit from making small quantities of lights capable of being mounted in unusual locations.

    Quote Originally Posted by formula4speed View Post
    I'd also like more fork crown mounting options (for road use).
    This is another good location where a GoPro conversion works well. Post 33 in this thread is a good example.

    best place for front light
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  7. #7
    mtbr member
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    Open letter to Light manufacturers

    Open letter to Light manufacturers,

    Thanks for the ideas, gents.

    My thought in starting this thread was to tell people that design lights what we want to have available in stores next year.

    Open letter to Light manufacturers

    I may order a Zebra light some day. If I do, I will not mount it to a loose bag to bounce around, although a haed mounted light could reduce the problems of a bag mounted light bouncing around.


    In the jungle they are using laser radar to find ruins,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9Lq8aMgmdU
    on mtbr we need to join the modern world.

    I want lights that mount in more places , example, a band long enough to mount the light to a suspension fork, and amber cob tail lights. A light on each fork leg, and a head lamp works well.

    This is 2018, I should not need duct tape and a sewing kit to get lights mounted on my bike. Nor should I need an after market mount.

    Bike packing is ever growing. Let the makers of lights find a way to make non handlebar mounted lights.


    Open letter to Light manufacturers

    Lads,
    what would you like to see for sale next year that is not for sale this year? People that sell lights read these pages, let them know.

    Why do they not make barend lights, the technology is there

  8. #8
    Beer Please! SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    This is another good location where a GoPro conversion works well. Post 33 in this thread is a good example.

    best place for front light
    That mounting point is sweet!
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    ......This is 2018, I should not need duct tape and a sewing kit to get lights mounted on my bike. Nor should I need an after market mount.
    So in your ideal world all lights would come with some assortment of mounts that would address all possible mounting points on the bike? Ya better keep dreamin.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  10. #10
    RAKC Industries
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    Heres some issues:

    1. Light that mounts to fork arch-

    Not practical because cant make mount for every brand of fork out there. Rubber band type alone is not secure on a surface structure that has so many different angles and those angles change between even models among brands. Only option is for fork manufactures to all start casting in a mounting point for screws or other interface that allows for secure mounting.

    Interference with cables becomes another issue.

    Making an adapter for a light with separate battery is possible but then run into the next huge complaint. Huge shadow created by the tire.

    Self contained light is completely impossible in the current sense, to make that would be a VERY VERY expensive light to produce. For bike packing a light that only lasts a couple hours on a charge is about pointless to most. A standard self contained light cannot mount to a fork arch, would hit the crown when fork is compressed enough. Risking damage to fork and the light.

    The only possibility would be a company willing to make an adapter to hold a light head to the arch, but self contained is out of the question unless there is enough bike packers willing to spend the high end prices for a very basic light with a couple hours of run time in steady modes.

    Bike packing is a very elite and small group of hard core riders compared to cycling overall.

    2. More mounting options-

    Partially falls into the above, suspension forks again are all but impossible to deal with. And on the fork lowers put the light into offroad abuse of the worst kind, nothing to deal with the vibrations and impacts. Though for bike packers this is a non-issue, you dont do 10ft jumps and drops with a fully loaded bike. But those outside of that will want to try it and the company the makes the mount will be held liable for lost or damaged lights due to being used outside of capabilities.

    Many lights do offer other mounting locations. But things like bar end lights, wont happen by an reputable company. First time someone drops their bike and that bar end hits something hard, the company that made the light gets bad reviews because the light didnt survive being smashed against a rock. Beyond that most lights except for the front light can be mounted most places on a bike usually via a band mount. Also have clips to secure to straps on bags

    NOW FOR AMBER LIGHTING, that is something that does need to change! Amber is proven more visible at a distance.

    Adding amber to a front light (small little marker lights are like a bar end light are just a waste and only useable for a short time without dissassembly) to the sides of a headlight is needed for more road based uses.

    A flashing red light in the rear (or front as well as blue light) by DOT standards in most if not all states is illegal except for emergencies or by use of emergency vehicles. Flashing white light in the front is also against DOT regulations but bicycles and some times motorcycles (but hard to find it in factory form anymore due to this) get around this.
    Bicycles are not technically included in most lighting requirements beyond a white front and red rear light. In my area a red taillight is required from dusk till dawn on city streets (not sidewalks which keeps the matter from effecting children) or subject to the same fines as a car.

    So a red rear light is required in almost every state. Just as motorcycles at minimum have to have a headlight and red tail/brake light to be on the road. Though some places require turn signals as well.

    Now a tail light with a small steady red in the middle and flashing amber on either side (obviously overpowering the red light) is a perfect solution. Amber is PROVEN safer and more visible in every study compared to red. But ordinances or laws in some locations mean a red light has to be included.

    VIEWING ANGLE OF TAILLIGHTS IS A BIG DEAL, regardless of red or amber. Light manufacturers dont get this at all! Just a lumen war and "can be seen from miles away, though very few places in the world do you have line of site half that far" instead of making a bigger and wider impression.

    Basically, some of your wishes are way too far out of reach, company would loose money even attempting it. But major changes adding amber and bigger/better viewing angles needs to happen, no company with these dinky lights barely visible unless basically directly behind the bike I habe never understood. Its better than nothing but true rider safety was lost there.

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  11. #11
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    My next headlight will be mounted to the underside of the front rack out of harm's way and it won't be interfered with by any load that I'm carrying on the rack.

    I already have my taillight mounted to the underside of the rear rack.

    Scott Novak

  12. #12
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    Idea! Cateye Rapid X3 (TL-LD720-R)

    1. Mounting place
    Best mounting place is the handlebar, more far away from possible dirt and better protected against bumps when using a suspension fork.
    There are a lot of possibilities to expand the available space on the handbar:
    bikeforums.net/electronics-lighting-gadgets/1126857-minoura-spacer-light-gadget-mount-di-light-fender-hole-mount.html


    2. More mounting options
    There are also a lot of possibilities for using GoPro mounts.
    bikeforums.net/electronics-lighting-gadgets/1131341-light-mount.html
    bikeforums.net/electronics-lighting-gadgets/1128880-any-headlights-designed-gopro-hanging-mount-2.html#post20017110


    3. Amber Light
    orfos.us does offer an amber COB USB-powered light with mount options for bicycles.


    4. Viewing angle of taillights
    My greatest taillight so far is the Cateye Rapid X3 (TL-LD720-R) with 300 lumens luminous flux. It's so bright it can blind during daylight at close distance (1-5m).
    Beam Angle is around 180° horizontal and the vertical beam angle can be controlled separately (towards and/or away from the ground).
    TL-LD720-R | CATEYE
    CATEYE SAFETY


    Mounting options are very good.
    CatEye Spacer X
    CatEye America I CatEye America Small Parts Safety Lights

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    ....I want lights that mount in more places , example, a band long enough to mount the light to a suspension fork, and amber cob tail lights. A light on each fork leg, and a head lamp works well.

    This is 2018, I should not need duct tape and a sewing kit to get lights mounted on my bike. Nor should I need an after market mount.

    Bike packing is ever growing. Let the makers of lights find a way to make non handlebar mounted lights.
    I think perhaps you expect too much. I don't know how many times I've wished and expressed the thought that bike helmet manufacturers would make bike helmets more conducive for mounting bike lights to but even today, most simply don't. Thankfully there are a few helmet options that work and some newer helmets that even have a built-in Gopro mount. That said if your light doesn't work on your helmet you don't blame the people selling bike lights...you blame the people making the helmets or find a way to mount the lamp to the helmet you already have ( yes, even if it requires duct tape, Velcro..etc ).

    In your case you have a unique mounting requirement. Since you aren't willing to give up the handlebar bag you need to mount the light somewhere beneath the bag that still allows the lamp to move into the direction you are steering. Since you are using a bike with a suspension fork you don't have the option to mounting on the upper fork crown as most MTB forks don't have a screw hole for that. If it were me I'd find a way to mount it the upper crown of the suspension fork. Mounting on the fork ( sides ) I would think not to be a great idea. The "lower" fork itself is the thing that absorbs all the shock and vibrations picked up by the front wheel. Not to mention you would get the shadow of the front wheel to deal with.

    Looking at my MTB I could mount to the suspension fork crown but likely it would take some ghetto tactics. In my case I can take the small mounting tube off an old handlebar extension ( about 4" long ), tape it to the crown and then mount one of my Gemini Duo's to it. The Duo ( or perhaps a Duo clone or Gloworm X2 ) would fit, be very lightweight and should work without becoming too loose. I would however have to attach the small carbonfiber tube to the crown by using either duct tape, Gorilla tape, industrial Velcro or any combo there of. Anyway, likely not enough room for a self contained lamp unless you had one of those periscope style torches. Now in my case my front suspension fork has holes machined into the crown. Likely I could use just the typical bar extender, loop it through one of the crown holes, steady it up using some rather large shims and if I'm lucky it might work. If not I'd go with the first option.

    **Amber LED lights are available as was pointed out. Not to mention one of those "white" Orfos lights might actual work and mount easier to the fork crown. Personally I like the Duo or X2 option because both of those are true MTB lights, have a great all-around beam pattern and both come with wireless remotes, making it simple to change modes or to turn off. Couple one of those with a good helmet lamp and you should be good to go Mr. MTB-Backpacker.

    **Dinotte also makes a couple super bright Amber lamps although they market them as a front lamp option.

    Parting comment; quit pissing and moaning about having to use Duct tape. It was good enough to help get the Apollo 13 astronauts home when their C02 filters failed. As such your need is not as great..

  14. #14
    NightRider
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    Quote Originally Posted by angerdan View Post
    1. Mounting place
    Best mounting place is the handlebar, more far away from possible dirt and better protected against bumps when using a suspension fork.
    There are a lot of possibilities to expand the available space on the handbar:
    bikeforums.net/electronics-lighting-gadgets/1126857-minoura-spacer-light-gadget-mount-di-light-fender-hole-mount.html


    2. More mounting options
    There are also a lot of possibilities for using GoPro mounts.
    bikeforums.net/electronics-lighting-gadgets/1131341-light-mount.html
    bikeforums.net/electronics-lighting-gadgets/1128880-any-headlights-designed-gopro-hanging-mount-2.html#post20017110


    3. Amber Light
    orfos.us does offer an amber COB USB-powered light with mount options for bicycles.


    4. Viewing angle of taillights
    My greatest taillight so far is the Cateye Rapid X3 (TL-LD720-R) with 300 lumens luminous flux. It's so bright it can blind during daylight at close distance (1-5m).
    Beam Angle is around 180° horizontal and the vertical beam angle can be controlled separately (towards and/or away from the ground).
    TL-LD720-R | CATEYE
    CATEYE SAFETY

    Mounting options are very good.
    CatEye Spacer X
    CatEye America I CatEye America Small Parts Safety Lights
    It may be bright for night time use but if you double check the specifications it is only rated at 100 lumens. Unfortunately for $60 you aren't going to get a 300 lumen tail light. The 180° beam angle does sound good though. I wonder what kind of lux value the light has at 1 meter. Lux and dispersion angle are critical for a good performing tail light.

  15. #15
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    Idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by gipsyman View Post
    It may be bright for night time use but if you double check the specifications it is only rated at 100 lumens.
    Unfortunately for $60 you aren't going to get a 300 lumen tail light. The 180° beam angle does sound good though.

    I wonder what kind of lux value the light has at 1 meter. Lux and dispersion angle are critical for a good performing tail light.
    I just checked the luminous flux of the amber version - 550lm continuous.
    kickstarter.com/projects/739603000/flare-pro-next-gen-light-for-cycling-hiking-and-ru/posts/1767415
    orfos.us/products/amber-flarepro-pre-order

    So for $75 you're getting 550lm (7lm/$).

    Lux isn't useful for taillights. Only for headlights, because there you'll need Illuminance.
    For taillights other things are important:
    • Luminance (for archieving high enough contrast against other light sources)
    • beam angle (for side visibility from different angles)
    • size and aspect ratio (to allow distance and speed calculations for following drivers)

    swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting_analyse/achterlampen/theorie/index_en.html
    swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/irritant/index_en.html#achterlampen
    bikelightdatabase.com/best/taillights/

  16. #16
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    My dasy 460 can mount on the fork.
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    The band is long enough to stretch around a Fox suspension fork, say 7 inches above the axle. I dont like the the light pattern much when it is turned on its side. I has enough side to side swivel to point it down to a usefull angel. The manufacturing cost is not more than a bar light.

    My urban 800 has 360 degree rotation.
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    If the band were just a centimeter or 2 longer it would be great for mounting just above the disk brake on the side of a suspension fork.

    Mounting at or near the fork crown, I dont like, because the top of the tire casts too great of a shadow. Mounting halfway between the axle and the crown works well, if you have a light on each side, one light on each fork leg. A light on each fork leg and a head lamp work well together. Without the headlamp, the shadows cast by a low mounted light make the bumps look like ledges.

    Allowing lights to be mounted to a thicker tube does not cost the light maker more money. It only requires them to think about it a little longer.

    Allowing lights to rotate a little further does not add to the cost of manufacture. It just means they thought about it for a while and made their lights a little more usefull.

    On high, runtime is 1.5 hours, medium 3 hours, low 6 hours. If you have a light on each side of the fork, why not run them on medium or low? 3 hours or 6 hours. 200 + 200 lumens is 400 lumens for 6 hours, + whatever you have in your head lamp.

    I have a Niterider 1,800. It is certainly bright enough for evening rides. It has a little bag to carry all the non self contained parts, to many parts and to much weight and volume to carry along on a tour.

    Self contained lights are really all that is feasable on a bikepacking trip. Read, limited space.

    As far as usefull light, Mounting a light on each bar end makes the most usefull light. Good height and spread apart. I find the amber side lights distracting when doing this. Why does no one make barends that are also lights? Mounting lights on dropbars, next to the bar end shifters is also highly functional.

    If the Yanks are unable to figure it out, ask the Germans how to fix it.

    The Orfos lights are listed as sold out. $75 is to much to pay for a light that has no battery. Batteries not included.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post


    Amber is PROVEN safer and more visible in every study compared to red.
    I knew that
    and
    More and more road ubstruction vehicles are using flashing amber lights, trash trucks, tow trucks, etc.

    Last month, I took a 12 day trip. On 11 of those days I used only my Fenix Hl60r head lamp, and then not for long. On the last night I drained the batteries on my hotrod 50 and my urban 900. Battery life in self contained lights is an issue. The fenix head lamp uses replaceable batteries, I had a spare. The yellow tint of the Fenix is easier on the eyes after 5 hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    quit pissing and moaning about having to use Duct tape. It was good enough to help get the Apollo 13 astronauts home when their C02 filters failed. As such your need is not as great..
    This aint rocket science man.
    What you call crying, I call looking to the future.
    Did NASA put more rolls of duct tape on the next rocket, or make improvements to the rocket?
    The cat seems to have every known bike light,
    Any ideas on what improvements the bike light industry could make over the next few years? The Chinese are sitting in a office somewhere trying to figure out what you want to buy. The Germans can figure out how to make a better light. You can not get what you want, unless someone knows what you want.

    Example,
    What light spectrum is eaiser on the eyes after 5 or 10 hours of usinf it=?

    Did oyu know,
    mechanics lights and photo lights use a differant spectrum than a living room light?
    Homework,
    figure out why.

  17. #17
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    Allowing lights to mount in more places does not increase the cost of manufacture

    It only requires that light designers think we need more places to mount our lights than just the handle bar.

    No add ons, no aftermarket, just functional light mounts,

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx
    The Chinese are sitting in a office somewhere trying to figure out what you want to buy.
    Nope. They are thinking of ways to get folks to buy their lights, mostly by lying about specs.


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    Allowing lights to mount in more places does not increase the cost of manufacture

    It only requires that light designers think we need more places to mount our lights than just the handle bar.

    No add ons, no aftermarket.just functional light mounts,
    Anything you add to a product increases the cost to manufacture. Even if it is just a single screw. Even if it adds just a few grams of plastic. If it adds a tiny bit of complexity to a mold or other tooling, it costs. And directly to your point, the more thought the designer applies to the product takes time. That time has to be recouped by the anticipated production of the product.

    You're dreaming about things that may seem functional, but are not. Suppose brand X makes their rubber strap long enough to fit around the leg of your suspension fork. Now I take that same light and mount it to my 22.2mm tri-bar. Works great for you, but I have a mile of excess strap flapping around. I could cut off the excess but then how do I fit it to my 35mm handlebar? The manufacturer could include long and short straps with some convenient method to exchange them. Guess what, that costs them. The examples of why this is not feasible could go on and on.

    Tiny little niche markets are not where volume manufacturers want to play. If there were loads of customers wanting to mount lights to their fork legs or luggage racks the volume manufacturers would provide a product.
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    Self contained lights are really all that is feasable on a bikepacking trip. Read, limited space.
    What does a self contained bike light have to do with space and bikepacking?

    I spent 6-1/2 months living off of my bike with a permanently mounted light on the handlebars. The biggest irritation that I had with lighting was having to remove the batteries from the light in order to charge them. I would have much preferred a separate waterproof battery pack with a simple reliable waterproof cable connection.

    Bike lights that have non-removable batteries are especially irritating because you don't always have easy access to power near your bicycle to charge them. You may have to remove the light from your bike to bring it to the nearest source of power to charge it.

    If it's winter, the usable capacity of the batteries is even lower, requiring even more recharges, and/or warming the of the entire light if the batteries are non-removable.

    I DON'T want to have to remove the bike light, bring it someplace to charge it, then reinstall and re-aim the light every time that I need to charge it.

    With a separate battery pack you can keep an extra battery pack or two next to your body to keep it warm and ready for use.

    As it was I carried 3 sets of batteries because I never knew how long it would be between power sources to recharge the batteries.

    The other problem that you have with a bike light with non-removable batteries is that you are usually unable to quick charge them.

    When you are living on your bike, finding power sources can be a challenge. You need to be able to recharge your batteries quickly when you find a power source. This may be in a restaurant, a bar, or the side of a building with an outlet on it.

    Granted, these days you might be able to mount solar panels on your bike to help charge the batteries while you ride.

    I want to permanently mount my bike light in some reasonably secure manner so that I don't have to worry about it getting stolen.

    Lights with self contained batteries are also more massive and more likely to get bounced out of adjustment or have and mount break.

    And whoever got the idea to use O-Rings and rubber straps for mounting headlights should burn in hell and be made to listen to Barry Manilow's Greatest Hits, FOREVER!!! Lights with those mounts NEVER stay adjusted and the lights are easily stolen!

    Scott Novak

  20. #20
    RAKC Industries
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    Band mounts really arent bad for short term stuff as long as its not self contained. Dont have any issues with lightheads moving on band mounts offroad either. GoPro style mounting has been the most useful and secure for me either way. Use an aluminum bar mount and a hex screw instead of thumb screw. Bolted to the bike, not easy to run off with.

    When I commuted to my previous job I purposely used a band mounted or quick release type self contained because light always came inside the plant with me. Now I could car less.

    This summer I will be on my bike 70+ miles a day for 7 days. Supported ride at least so dont have to carry clothes and such on my bike as well. Just everything I need to for the day. Ill be doing the same as you scott, perma-mounted light with battery pack. GoPro stem cap adapter.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Life on a bike doesn't begin till the sun goes down.


  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gipsyman View Post
    Unfortunately for $60 you aren't going to get a 300 lumen tail light. The 180° beam angle does sound good though.
    The Flare Pro was 400lm for $65, when the kickstarter started last year, so it's certainly possible to design and sell a light within that cost and lumen range. Unfortunately, almost no one is going to exceed 100-150lm without slapping a luxury charge on their product.

    Also unfortunately, the mfg of the housings for Orfos' Flare Pro line couldn't make the die work, and Orfos had to start over with a new shop, which set them back most of 2017. They recently received the first batch and are sending out pre-orders, no idea when, or if they will have spare stock to sell online.
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

  22. #22
    NightRider
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    The Flare Pro was 400lm for $65, when the kickstarter started last year, so it's certainly possible to design and sell a light within that cost and lumen range. Unfortunately, almost no one is going to exceed 100-150lm without slapping a luxury charge on their product.

    Also unfortunately, the mfg of the housings for Orfos' Flare Pro line couldn't make the die work, and Orfos had to start over with a new shop, which set them back most of 2017. They recently received the first batch and are sending out pre-orders, no idea when, or if they will have spare stock to sell online.
    I was referring to the Cateye Rapid X3 tail light not being 300 but really 150 lumens.

    I see the Orfos Flare Pro red is advertised as 300 continuous lumens for $119 regular price. That price is nowhere near $60. I have my tail light on continuously, not just some initial peak. So peak numbers are just marketing fluff to me. Orfos advertises the Flare Pro front light as better than a bike light, but I call BS on that claim. A white front light that disperses everywhere maybe great for hiking, but I wouldn't want one for the bicycle riding I have ever done.
    I don't do any city riding anymore, only back roads so I need a collimated tail light to get a high lux output. I use a DesignShine DS-500 tail light that has a spot lens and a second elliptical lens system. Think Arizona flat desert roads with full sunlight and inattentive drivers rushing to and from their home to work place.

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    Idea! Trelock LS 760

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    1. Any ideas on what improvements the bike light industry could make over the next few years?
    2. What light spectrum is eaiser on the eyes after 5 or 10 hours of usinf it=?
    3. Did oyu know, mechanics lights and photo lights use a differant spectrum than a living room light?

    1. Automatic hig/low beam switching with intelligent detection of incoming traffic
      manual hig/low beam switching with remote control
      automatic adjustment of the vertical angle (Trelock already builds the LS 760 with a sensor and display for correct alignment)
      adjustable light modes with control via app
    2. less blue parts, so a lower color temperature - 4000-5000K
    3. if you're refering to the color temperature - common in industrial applications are 6500K and for homes 3000K.



    Quote Originally Posted by gipsyman View Post
    I see the Orfos Flare Pro red is advertised as 300 continuous lumens for $119 regular price. That price is nowhere near $60.
    As already posted before, the amber version is currently listed for $75.




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    Just an FYI, Cadillac had automatic high beam dimming on their cars in the 70's. That's rather old technology, which would be relatively inexpensive today.

    Scott Novak

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    Quote Originally Posted by angerdan View Post
    1. Automatic hig/low beam switching with intelligent detection of incoming traffic
      manual hig/low beam switching with remote control
      automatic adjustment of the vertical angle (Trelock already builds the LS 760 with a sensor and display for correct alignment)
      adjustable light modes with control via app
    2. less blue parts, so a lower color temperature - 4000-5000K
    3. if you're refering to the color temperature - common in industrial applications are 6500K and for homes 3000K.




    As already posted before, the amber version is currently listed for $75.




    My point angerdan was that a $60 300-400 real lumen red tail light by an American manufacturer is very difficult to do long term while making a profit. The $75 price for the new Orfos Pro is an introductory pre-order price, not the regular price. A pre-order that can't even be placed yet.

    The more automatic things on a light make it more useful, but also more things to fail. I prefer a housing mounted light switch and a remote switch only. I don't want to pay extra for things I don't consider necessary, especially things that can lower reliability. I have never had a manual car window fail, but I have had power window controllers, switches, and automatic components fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gipsyman View Post
    The more automatic things on a light make it more useful, but also more things to fail.
    Agreed. You need to be judicious in the use of extra automatic features.

    Quote Originally Posted by gipsyman View Post
    I have never had a manual car window fail, but I have had power window controllers, switches, and automatic components fail.
    I have had manual window openers fail. But not anywhere near the failure rate of my friends with their power windows. I've never had a power window fail. But then again, I've never owned a vehicle with power windows or power door locks for that matter.

    On my previous bike light I used a magnetic reed switch to turn on a power MOSFET that in turn powered the LED. A magnet on the outside of the light would actuate the magnetic reed switch inside.

    That may seem complicated, but the power MOSFET was more reliable and had a lower on resistance than a mechanical switch and it was completely waterproof.

    I can see the need to switch between high and low beams on the road to put the light where you need it.

    But I question the need for most people to have multiple light intensity levels. Seems like they are spending too much time switching their light levels with not enough time with their hands on the handgrips. I don't consider reducing light intensity to conserve battery light reasonable. Your need for light intensity doesn't decrease because your battery capacity is insufficient.

    You might claim that you need more light at higher speed. My counter to that is that you are just trying to get by with insufficient light intensity at lower speeds.

    Granted, I might change my mind after I have 2,000+ lumens of light intensity to play with. Maybe I'll find road conditions where I actually want to reduce the light intensity. But I have my doubts.

    I've heard one plausible argument for only using higher light intensities temporarily in some off road conditions so that your eyes stay better adjusted to the dark, but I'll have to try it myself before I believe it.

    I think that wireless remotes for bike mounted lights are just asking for trouble. Way too much complexity with far too many potential problems without any real need or benefit. A wired switch on the handlebars should suffice with fewer potential problems.

    Helmet lights are another issue entirely. There you don't want to be tethered to your bicycle by anything. A thumb actuated wireless remote mounted on your handlebars would seem to be more of a necessity if you really need to change light intensity levels on your helmet. So you pay the price with extra complexity.

    It's really a matter of judicious intelligent design compromise and you'll never please everyone.

    But the biggest problem that I see is people that are just out to make a fast buck and NOT really trying to make a product that gets the job done.

    This is where the small startup has a big advantage. They still have a passion for what they are doing, versus a large company with the bean counters making the decisions. The biggest problem that a small startup often has is not enough money and/or experience.

    Scott Novak

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post
    This is where the small startup has a big advantage. They still have a passion for what they are doing, versus a large company with the bean counters making the decisions. The biggest problem that a small startup often has is not enough money and/or experience.
    That not enough money part is a big challenge, that's for sure. That's why for my stuff, sticking with KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. Show everyone what a proper beam pattern can do with a great chip behind it, and then build on that.
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    Scott

    I wonder if your looking at it way to much from a pavement point of view. Just like the difference in bikes, the light requirements can be vastly different. There is no flaws in design because a light cant run for 4 hours on a little battery and produce 2000 lumens. Thats a matter of limits in technology.

    And no one changes modes constantly while riding (which 99% of the discussions here are regarding offroad use, not pavement). Most I change in a ride, any stops excluded is 3 times in a 1 hr loop. No one changes modes every time the terrain changes a little. Long climbs we use lower power not just to conserve battery but because the output is far from needed and the lights will get hot due to lack of air flow so it improves longevity of a light. Except for longer fast decents no reason to run full power or switch modes.

    Wireless and wired remotes exist anywhere but cheap chinese junk. Purpose is so you dont have to take your hands off the bars to switch modes. Requires less effort than switching gears.

    Do you call it a design flaw in bicycles that we switch gears to climb or descend? More or less same thing. Requires of terrain changes, so we switch gears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gipsyman View Post
    I was referring to the Cateye Rapid X3 tail light not being 300 but really 150 lumens.

    I see the Orfos Flare Pro red is advertised as 300 continuous lumens for $119 regular price. That price is nowhere near $60. I have my tail light on continuously, not just some initial peak. So peak numbers are just marketing fluff to me. Orfos advertises the Flare Pro front light as better than a bike light, but I call BS on that claim. A white front light that disperses everywhere maybe great for hiking, but I wouldn't want one for the bicycle riding I have ever done.
    I don't do any city riding anymore, only back roads so I need a collimated tail light to get a high lux output. I use a DesignShine DS-500 tail light that has a spot lens and a second elliptical lens system. Think Arizona flat desert roads with full sunlight and inattentive drivers rushing to and from their home to work place.
    The Flare, of which I have two, was $119 and was rated at 300lm. The Flare Pro is $75, israted at 400lm, and has a scratched out value of $119 ($67.50 if you purchase two). They have never sold their lights for the scratched out value.

    Both $67.50 and $75 are close to $75 in my book. Not that it matters considering the output, range and degree of visibility of the lights are unmatched.

    No idea what you are getting at with 'initial peak'. I have never seen a visibly reduced output of these lights outside the light dropping from whatever you have it set at to the lowest setting to give you 30 minutes to get home before the battery gives out. If you set it to high, it runs full on until the juice gets low. Maybe you are confusing these with cheap Chinese lights that list the LED's max rating regardless of output? Orfos is manufactured in the US, and does not have any 'boost' settings or quick step downs due to heat.

    400lm is the same output as any good automotive brake lamp, and is visible in bright light conditions, even those I experienced at 11,000 feet. While using a focused light does increase brightness, the trade off is it reduces the area of visibility. There is a reason automotive brake lamps do not tightly focus the beam, and it largely has to do with traffic approaching at oblique angles. If you're going to run a focused beam, I would encourage you to add a high output dispersed beam light as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingtaco View Post
    The Flare, of which I have two, was $119 and was rated at 300lm. The Flare Pro is $75, israted at 400lm, and has a scratched out value of $119 ($67.50 if you purchase two). They have never sold their lights for the scratched out value.

    Both $67.50 and $75 are close to $75 in my book. Not that it matters considering the output, range and degree of visibility of the lights are unmatched.

    No idea what you are getting at with 'initial peak'. I have never seen a visibly reduced output of these lights outside the light dropping from whatever you have it set at to the lowest setting to give you 30 minutes to get home before the battery gives out. If you set it to high, it runs full on until the juice gets low. Maybe you are confusing these with cheap Chinese lights that list the LED's max rating regardless of output? Orfos is manufactured in the US, and does not have any 'boost' settings or quick step downs due to heat.

    400lm is the same output as any good automotive brake lamp, and is visible in bright light conditions, even those I experienced at 11,000 feet. While using a focused light does increase brightness, the trade off is it reduces the area of visibility. There is a reason automotive brake lamps do not tightly focus the beam, and it largely has to do with traffic approaching at oblique angles. If you're going to run a focused beam, I would encourage you to add a high output dispersed beam light as well.
    That is great that they don't sell their products for the scratched out msrp price. Paying $75 for a very good American made light is reasonable to me. Maybe too much for others though.

    The peak rating of 400 lumens I read about is directly from their kickstarter campaign and their web store. I didn't pull that 400 peak lumen rating out of thin air. You can read it in their "Tech Specs"

    Kickstarter link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ru/description

    "Designed to be a digital version of a pyrotechnic flare, the FlarePro™ is a 1oz, high output, long runtime LED light for all your adventures. At 950 peak WHITE lumens and 400 peak RED lumens, the FlarePro™ turns night into day and makes your adventures limitless."

    Further down the page in the Tech Specs it reads:
    Red Lumens: 400 peak/300 continuous

    The same goes with the Orfos web store. Page down to Tech Specs
    Web store link:
    https://www.orfos.us/pages/flarepro

    All automotive brake lights use some type of reflector and or lens assembly to disperse the light output. Don't you wonder why there are no brake lights with simple direct view leds. Because they presently can not meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards 108 (FMVSS 108) for mandated brightness and light dispersion.

    My present bicycle tail light (DS-500) has both a focused beam and a widely dispersed beam. I am not claiming the DS500 light is the best for all uses, but it works for all of my current riding. If I lived in New York city, and I rode in all the traffic, construction, and lighting there, the Orfos type flare tail lights would be the best choice.

    To give you an idea of the dispersal pattern of the DS-500 with both a spot lens and an elliptical lens see these photos. The clear polycarbonate lens holder also disperses side lighting quite well.



    Anyway, glad you like your 1st gen Orfos flares for your riding situations. Do you think the Flare Pro is better?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Open letter to Light manufacturers-beam_coverage.jpg  

    Open letter to Light manufacturers-ds-500-lens.jpg  

    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Long climbs we use lower power not just to conserve battery but because the output is far from needed and the lights will get hot due to lack of air flow so it improves longevity of a light.
    Therein lies a design problem. A product should not overheat to the point of impacting it's reliability during normal operation, nor should the light ever get hot enough to burn your skin. Lack of airflow IS a normal operating condition on a bicycle. Best would be adequate heat sinking to prevent the light from becoming too hot in the first place. Next best would be thermal feedback to reduce the light output to prevent overheating.

    When you have lots of airflow, you don't have to worry so much much about surface radiating area, surface finish, surface color, or surface coatings. But in low airflow conditions you need to use black thermally conductive coatings that also like to radiate the heat.

    A material that conducts heat well does not always radiate heat so well. Aluminum is a perfect example. Steel radiates heat better than aluminum. But aluminum conducts heat far better than steel. In low airflow situations you need a coating on the aluminum that is better at radiating.

    A black anodized surface radiates better than bare aluminum and would likely also have an advantage over a powder coat. Likewise, more surface radiating area is required, which is when lots of tall fins have an advantage.

    And it's a given to use efficient DC-DC convertors so as not to generate any unnecessary heat and extend the runtime.

    I see a bit too much weight weenieism when it comes to bike lights. I can understand the the weight concern when you are racing and trying to shave off every extra gram and not having to worry about being any more reliable than the length of the race.

    But for normal riding, the extra weight of adequate heat sinking on a bicycle mounted light doesn't seem like a big deal to me. That's far less weight than the 2nd water bottle that I carry. Not to mention, anything that gives me more incentive to ride will likely shave off more weight from my body than the extra weight of adequate heat sinking on a bike light.

    I prefer to shave off weight where it not only won't weaken anything or reduce performance, but will in fact improve reliability, such as using double butted spokes.

    Most of the bike lights that I've seen have essentially shaved off so much heat sinking by design that the performance has been reduced.

    I'm also a bit puzzled why so few manufacturers have used any significant amount of finnage on their lights. Not only are fins effective for cooling at lower air flows, but I think they also have a coolness factor that would help sell the light. I think the Zanflare B3 is a good example. I believe that many cyclists would accept the looks of the fins. Granted, the internals of the Zanflare B3 are a major disappointment and I can't say much for the beam pattern.

    And in the "What the H*LL were they thinking?" category are lights with fins perpendicular to the airflow. I mean who does that? Was the designer dropped on their head as a baby or what?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Do you call it a design flaw in bicycles that we switch gears to climb or descend?
    No. But I consider it a design flaw when they add gear indicators on the shifters that inevitably cause reliability problems, interfere with the positioning of the shifter on the handlebars, as well as add a useless and dangerous distraction to the rider.

    Scott Novak

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    GoPro style mounting has been the most useful and secure for me either way. Use an aluminum bar mount and a hex screw instead of thumb screw. Bolted to the bike, not easy to run off with.
    I've got news for you. Thieves have got tools. It takes a lot more than replacing a thumbscrew with a bolt to make it secure. Granted there are ways. Using Allen head bolts in countersunk holes with epoxy filling the Allen heads is relatively secure. The countersunk holes prevent the use of vice grips on the bolt head. It will take a Dremel grinder or something similar to remove the epoxy from the hex hole in the bolt head. More tools than most thieves are likely to carry and more time than they want to spend stealing something.

    There are probably ways to make a cover that locks over the bolt heads or nuts.

    High strength Loctite can sometimes be used to captivate a nut that would still allow adjustment, but not allow full removal of the bolt, unless you were able to cut or break the bolt.

    So far I've had a bike light stolen that required a screwdriver to remove, a $2.00 flashlight that I taped to my handlebars after my bike light got stolen, my air pump and holder which required military grade zip ties to be cut off, bungee cords, a sheepskin saddle cover (It makes a huge difference in comfort in the winter) and an insulated water bottle. Who steals a water bottle?

    Besides not being secure, the problem that I see with many O-Ring mounts is that the mount itself is made from hard plastic that doesn't have much friction against the handlebar. The O-rings have far more friction against the handlebars. So when you rotate the light the mount easily slides on the bar, but the O-ring tends to stay in place and just stretch. While you ride, the vibrations allow the O-Ring to pull the mount back to where it was and you need to readjust to light in short order.

    On the Bright Eyes O-Ring mount there is a recess that a rubber pad fits into. However, the pad isn't thick enough to exert enough pressure to hold anything. I glued a piece of inner tube to the underside of the mount. While helps a bit, the mount still wants to spring back after you have adjusted it. It qualifies as a bike light mount shaped object.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    When I commuted to my previous job I purposely used a band mounted or quick release type self contained because light always came inside the plant with me.
    I'd like to see you do that in subzero weather. That gets old very fast.

    A lot of things work well for fair weather biking. But when you bike 365 in Minnesota subzero weather, things on a bike become far more critical.

    Scott Novak

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    I only live a few hours south of you at most, western illinois on the banks of the Mississippi about an hour south of the Wisconsin border. If you need to go to your extremes against theft it sounds more like you need to make different choices on where your bike is stored.

    And removing a band mount or quick release latch isnt difficult at all. A bit cold if your not quick about it, but I use bar mitts/pogies so I can wear thinner gloves.


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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    If you need to go to your extremes against theft it sounds more like you need to make different choices on where your bike is stored.
    I live in the real world where you don't always have secure parking for your bicycle.

    Some apartment buildings won't allow you to bring your bicycle inside. Because of one of my living situations, for 3 years my Troll had to be locked up outside.

    I use my bicycle for my main transportation. Unless you only use your bicycle for pleasure riding and never stop anywhere outside of your home, it's a little difficult to find safe and secure parking.

    I volunteer at a non-profit bike shop a few days a week. One of other mechanics there had her bicycle locked up right outside of the door with windows. But on a busy Saturday during the middle of a sunny afternoon, someone with an Allen wrench liberated her saddle and seatpost and nobody noticed it happening.

    My last bike light was stolen in plain sight while my bicycle was locked up at a light rail station.

    I had a tire pump and it's holder cut off of my bike while locked up outside at a grocery store in a well lighted area.

    I had bungee cords stolen off of my bicycle in a well lighted area with security cameras outside of another grocery store.

    I had my water bottle stolen outside the Downtown St. Paul main library.

    Whenever I stop I run a 10mm cable through the saddle rails, through each wheel, and then to the U-Lock.

    I don't consider it practical to have to remove a lights and take them with me every time I park my bike somewhere. That is quite simply a PITA.

    Bike lights need to be designed for the real world where not everyone is honest.

    You can talk about Minnesota nice all you want. We still have thieves here.

    Scott Novak

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    Its a problem here as well to a point. Usually not hard to get around most of it, just a decent lock. Small enough area. Part of the reason I wont live in major cities anymore.

    When we visit wifes family in st louis my bike(s) are transported on the back of our odyssey then stored inside it at all times once we arrive. Has full alarm.

    I trust NO ONE in that sense, I forget some have no choice but to leave stuff outside etc. I got tired of replacing things people steal so we live in a lower population area now with little concerns of anything not anchored in concrete being stolen.

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    When you get out into the sticks the problem there is that the locals seem to think that bicycles are alien devices. "What's a bike rack?" Finding something secure enough to lock your bike to is a challenge.

    You don't have to travel too far out of Minneapolis to find redneckville, where someone driving a pickup truck has his buddy hang out the window and yell at you to get on the sidewalk.

    Bicycles get stolen in the sticks as well. But more likely stolen by someone that knows you instead of by some random thief.

    Scott Novak

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    I dont live in the sticks, have corn fields on 3 sides, river on the 4th

    Ya stuff gets stolen, thats why you dont leave it laying around outside. Though we have many times and luckily been ok.

    But the problem is 1/100th of what it is in a city and social media creates a rapid response digital man hunt. Why I like it here.

    And no bicycles are far from alien here. We have one of the most substantial paved path system in a rural area. Including counties expanding paved shoulder widths specifically to give cyclists/runner safer conditions on 2 lane roads. Cycling is as big per capita here as anywhere. Our longest path is one of elite few that a rail trail was paved the entire length including specific re-routes to conservation areas (breaking away from old rail line itself) and exists for pushing 15+ years now.

    Commuting on the other hand, not near as "popular" because during the winter it becomes impossible for some like myself. Plows bury the sidewalk to cross the bridge into the "city" across the river.

    Small parts are worth nothing here, only a good way to get caught real quick.

    So a decent lock is plenty, just good to be long enough to loop through wheels too


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    Amber light laws

    In Kansas City Mo, there is a 1898 law on the books. When you pass a horse and buggy, you must stop and dismantel your automobile. The fine is 50 cents if you fail to do so.

    Laws against amber bike lights are enforced with equal priority.

    Blinking red bicycle lights are against the law in many places. Ever been stopped?

    Road hazards are more and more using fast fast fast slow blinking amber lights. Drivers are slowing to avoid a crash. They even hit their brakes to for a turn signal.

    The best use of my Cygolite Dash 460s are day time flashing mode. Much more visable in the direct sun than the red lights.

    ______________________________________

    Unrelated to what kind of bike lights I would like to buy next year.

    Cycle theft is up all over, as is heroin addiction. Could there be a conection?

    Over the weekend, I used 4 locks to secure my cycle as I photographed the parades. Sad but true. 1around a post through the rear wheel and seat stays, 1 front wheel to a post, 1 through front rack and spokes, and a cable looped through seat rails and around a post and frame.

    A few days ago I was surprised to find my lights still on the bike when I returned after 2 hours. Most times I remember to put the in my pocket.

    Never use just one light. Even if the second light is just a cheap one. Batteries drain, lights fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post
    ...........I'm also a bit puzzled why so few manufacturers have used any significant amount of finnage on their lights. Not only are fins effective for cooling at lower air flows, but I think they also have a coolness factor that would help sell the light. I think the Zanflare B3 is a good example. I believe that many cyclists would accept the looks of the fins. Granted, the internals of the Zanflare B3 are a major disappointment and I can't say much for the beam pattern.

    And in the "What the H*LL were they thinking?" category are lights with fins perpendicular to the airflow. I mean who does that? Was the designer dropped on their head as a baby or what?
    Unless the light is made from an extrusion or die casting, fins cost. Depending on the design and orientation, machining fins can be pretty time consuming. My last bar light design has a pretty decent number of 1/2 inch deep fins machined parallel to the airflow and directly behind the LED mounting surface. My CNC mill time just for the fins is ~17 minutes.

    The Zanflare is an extrusion so fins parallel to air flow are easy and cheap. It's a shame that they opted for a hollow extrusion that eliminates the ability to have an efficient thermal path from the LEDs to the fins. The hollow extrusion keeps their extrusion and machining costs lower and in most all the Chinese lights, low cost is the key criteria in design factors.

    Fins perpendicular to the airflow are sub optimal, but better than nothing. Fins in that orientation can be done in the same machining operation that cuts the optics pocket. That helps keep the housing cost low as it eliminates a secondary CNC operation. The guys designing quality lights know all this. They were not "dropped on their head as a baby". They are trying to produce a design that meets cost/profit goals established by their sales team. Another factor is they may be designing to best suit the manufacturing equipment available to them.
    Last edited by Vancbiker; 02-14-2018 at 09:56 PM. Reason: fix spelling
    GoPro adapters for bike lights http://www.pacifier.com/~kevinb/index.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Nope. They are thinking of ways to get folks to buy their lights, mostly by lying about specs.

    Anything you add to a product increases the cost to manufacture. Even if it is just a single screw.

    Alienate the Customers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Unless the light is made from an extrusion or die casting, fins cost. Depending on the design and orientation, machining fins can be pretty time consuming. My last bar light design has a pretty decent number of 1/2 inch deep fins machined parallel to the airflow and directly behind the LED mounting surface. My CNC mill time just for the fins is ~17 minutes.

    The Zanflare is an extrusion so fins parallel to air flow are easy and cheap. It's a shame that they opted for a hollow extrusion that eliminates the ability to have an efficient thermal path from the LEDs to the fins. The hollow extrusion keeps their extrusion and machining costs lower and in most all the Chinese lights, low cost is the key criteria in design factors.

    Fins perpendicular to the airflow are sub optimal, but better than nothing. Fins in that orientation can be done in the same machining operation that cuts the optics pocket. That helps keep the housing cost low as it eliminates a secondary CNC operation. The guys designing quality lights know all this. They were not "dropped on their head as a baby". They are trying to produce a design that meets cost/profit goals established by their sales team. Another factor is they may be designing to best suit the manufacturing equipment available to them.
    It really puzzled me why die casting isn't used in a lot of lights either. Plenty of plastic injection, but that costs just about the same as die casting. CNC time on anything over 500 units starts to cost more than the initial upfront costs of a die casting tool.

    Fin design is why I went with die casting. I did think about CNC as well because of the low upfront costs, but even with an extremely simplistic design the per unit cost is just so high compared to die cast after the initial tooling is paid for that it didn't make sense, even off-shore.
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    Unless you need to ride for 3-4 hours or more all lights should be self contained units with replaceable rechargeable batteries.

    Just my opinion...I hate cords and battery packs that have to be mounted elsewhere on the bike.

    Ituo Wiz20 pretty much nails it with the exception of the sucky mount. Just wish there were more choices like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outbound View Post
    It really puzzled me why die casting isn't used in a lot of lights either. Plenty of plastic injection, but that costs just about the same as die casting. CNC time on anything over 500 units starts to cost more than the initial upfront costs of a die casting tool.

    Fin design is why I went with die casting. I did think about CNC as well because of the low upfront costs, but even with an extremely simplistic design the per unit cost is just so high compared to die cast after the initial tooling is paid for that it didn't make sense, even off-shore.
    IDK, it seems like many do use die castings. Several that I've had my hands on to design GoPro adapters for come to mind. Serfas, Light & Motion, Magicshine, NiteRider all have models with die cast bodies in their product lines. My experience with die cast tooling is that it does cost quite a bit more than a plastic injection tool can cost. That difference is reduced to almost nothing if the plastic injection tool is to be used with glass-filled materials or some exotic plastics.

    A machined extrusion kind of bridges the difference in upfront costs. An extrusion tool for a fairly simple profile like most bike lights would use is a fraction of the cost of a die casting tool. Machining costs are greatly reduced over machining from a block. Something like a SSX2 would be less than 3 minutes per housing to machine complete on a 4 axis CNC in a volume set up. Up front costs are low and volume production costs are fairly low. I think that's why so many Chinese lights are made from extrusion.
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    OP, can't figure out a way to mount the light for your bikepacking? So many options. Zip ties, worm clamps, old inner tubes. Paul make a thing to mount a lamp from a fork mount hole. So front sus fork? Get a star nut and install upside down from the bottom of the steerer tube. Now you have a 5mm bolt hole to work with. Get a bracket of sorts to go from there. Got an extra stem? Put it on your bars, pointed up, perfect spot above the bar bag to mount something. Is it a perfect way that is not cobbled? Not so much. I always get something to work though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gipsyman View Post
    The peak rating of 400 lumens I read about is directly from their kickstarter campaign and their web store...

    ...Anyway, glad you like your 1st gen Orfos flares for your riding situations. Do you think the Flare Pro is better?
    I'm sure the Flare Pro will be great when it arrives. As it stands, the 300lm (continuous) Red Flare is great, I've posted about how the output is fairly linear throughout the 180º sweep, and that it is strong enough that I can see it reflecting off a newly laid asphalt when I look to the side. If the Pro only offers a 400lm in a ramp up/down mode, I'll be perfectly happy.
    I will suffer no butt-hurt fools!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post

    ...But I question the need for most people to have multiple light intensity levels. Seems like they are spending too much time switching their light levels with not enough time with their hands on the handgrips. I don't consider reducing light intensity to conserve battery light reasonable. Your need for light intensity doesn't decrease because your battery capacity is insufficient.

    You might claim that you need more light at higher speed. My counter to that is that you are just trying to get by with insufficient light intensity at lower speeds....
    Having the choice to change light levels is a perk that came along when the technology turned to LED's. This doesn't mean you have to use more than one light level. The choice is yours. Some even give you the option to program in the intensity level of a given mode.

    Yes, you do need more light when at higher speeds but, "only when line of sight increases ( and / or ) if trail features/obstacles dictate the need for more light. If you know your trail system you know what you need and where you are going to need it. Otherwise it may be more prudent to use more light if riding an otherwise unknown trail system.

    I don't understand why you think,

    You might claim that you need more light at higher speed. My counter to that is that you are just trying to get by with insufficient light intensity at lower speeds....
    Lower light levels are not necessarily, "insufficient". Insufficient light only occurs when you don't have enough light to see what you need to see in order to do what you safely need to do. If I'm climbing a three mile long fire road at night I may at times only be moving 3-5mph ( or walking speed ). In a situation like that I have no need to see 200-300 ft ahead of me ( which is what is possible with the lamps I have ). Nope, I feel fine just being able to see about 30 ft. ahead. Heck, for that matter I could probably get by with just 50 lumen but on a climb like that I'd likely splurge and run my typically 150-200 lumen ( and turn the helmet lamp off ).

    I also don't understand why you believe,

    ..I don't consider reducing light intensity to conserve battery light reasonable. Your need for light intensity doesn't decrease because your battery capacity is insufficient.
    Like I said before, the need for more or less light is situational. Your last sentence is correct but it doesn't apply for ever possible circumstance. Sometimes you use less light because it's all you need but sometimes you WILL USE LESS LIGHT if you suddenly realize that you may not have enough battery power to get you back. Believe me, nothing more scarier than being out on a large remote trail system you aren't real familiar with and realize you may not have enough battery power to get you back. I had this happen two times during the early years of halogen lighting ( with NiMH batteries ). Both times it scared the crap out of me. Both times I got lucky and had just enough to get me back. Too bad they didn't have LED bike lights back then. The scariest situation I ever faced was being 15 miles from camp in the remote mountains of West Virginia on a trail system never ridden before when suddenly I realized that I was now racing the setting sun. At the time I was only carrying along my 10watt Niterider Halogen helmet lamp and a 4-cell NiMH battery that was only about half charged. With rattlesnakes crawling all over the place ( yes, I saw a few that day ) and only a couple gulps of water left in my Camelback I was really worried about getting off the mountain before I ran out of battery power ( not to mention I was already dehydrated ). I did have one of the new ( at the time ) led flashlights with me but it only put out about 15 lumen. Good enough to see when walking but certainly not enough for riding a MTB down the side of a mountain on unknown rock strewn singletrack trails. ( not to mention no GPS back then only maps ). ( Ah, the good old days... )

    With modern LED bike lights almost none of those worries would be necessary nowadays because even if you thought you might not be able to get back before running out of battery power, you still have the option to use a lower mode and use minimal output. Need I say, minimal output with newer LED lamps goes a long way. Li-ion cells they use have more capacity and even with just one cell you can go a long way if you choose the right output. You may not have all the light you want but you'll have enough to get you safely out of the woods AS LONG AS YOU UNDERSTAND THE NECESSITY TO MODULATE YOUR OUTPUT when in a given situation.

    BTW I did make it down that mountain and yes I did need to use the Niterider. That Niterider saved my butt. Thank God I had the sense to bring it along even though I didn't think I'd need it when I left camp. I don't even want to imagine what it would of been like to have had to use that dinky little 15 lumen flashlight as my only light source.

    Last parting comment; If you routinely run the higher outputs likely you are draining your batteries more deeply. Depending on how deep you routinely discharge your batteries the more faster they will age and lose capacity. Just thought that worth mentioning FWIW.

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    Cat-man-do,

    While some might claim that they don't need as much light just because the are riding slowly, YOU may not be the only moving object on the road. You have those pesky Ninjas riding at you on the wrong side of the road, and crossing intersections riding on the wrong side of the road where you aren't expecting to see them. That's besides the loose dog or two. And then there are also those pesky drivers, including a few drunk ones. A car may come at you with it's bright lights on and you'll need all of the light you have to compete with the glare. I almost think that I need more light in the city than out in the sticks with no streetlights. And then there are those stupid rabbits that get frightened and run across the trail right in front of you.

    Off road there may be moose, bears, wolves, coyotes, mountain lions, deer, elk, loose buffalo, cattle, or horses just to mention a few things that I'd much rather see a long way in the distance. Even within the Twin Cities metro area we do in fact have bear, deer, wolves, coyotes, the occasional wild cat, and rabid raccoons. There are deer on the bike trails within the Minneapolis city limits and far more in the suburbs along the creek trails.

    You may not know that you needed more light until it's too late. Expect the unexpected. The trail you are used to may have been washed out or perhaps a rock slide put a few obstacles in your path that you weren't aware of. I think that there is a big difference between what you think you can get by with and what you really need.

    I also think that bike light technology is only just getting to the point of giving us what we really need.

    Your depth is field is also greater with higher light intensities so you will see better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    ...but sometimes you WILL USE LESS LIGHT if you suddenly realize that you may not have enough battery power to get you back.
    That's why I like to travel with 3 sets of batteries. I don't need to use a lower light intensity to get me back home. And yes, I agree that you should have at least 2 bike lights, even if one of them is just a spare in your pack. I also carry a couple of flashlights and duct tape just in case.

    I really dislike having to click through multiple settings just to turn my light off and on.

    With the last light I had, I gutted the electronics along with the variable intensity in favor of just on and off. The extra intensity levels are just added complexity and one more thing to worry about.

    Now if you are running multiple lights you may need to adjust the intensity of one of them to balance the light intensity between your near field and far field light.

    I was previously using a 540 lumen light aimed for far field and a 120 lumen light aimed for near field. It seemed like a reasonable balance, except that I wanted at least double the light width and a bit more intensity. I figure that about 2,000 lumens would be about right.

    I don't think that front strobes should be allowed to be used at night. I find it very irritating when a rider comes at me on a bike path with their strobe on.

    As I already said, maybe I'll change my mind when I have 2,000+ lumens of light on my bike.

    If you are really worried about your batteries lifespan you will never charge it completely and never discharge it completely. But I don't think that most people are that concerned with the lifespan of their batteries. They would rather have the maximum possible capacity for longer run time.

    Scott Novak

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    Scott, judging from your last post it seems at the time you really aren't using lamps with a lot of output. That said if you upgrade and begin to use a combo of lights capable of 2000 plus lumen you will begin to understand the need for various output modes.

    None of my previous comments had to do with commuter or road use. If you have super bright lights you would quickly understand the need to hit the low beam in order not to blind on-coming pedestrians or cyclists. You are right though, when on the road there are sometimes unexpected things like dark objects, pot holes, people walking in dark clothing and yes the occasional deer, fox, skunk, raccoon and in your case perhaps a moose. Geez, really glad they don't live in my region of the country. Moose are scary as hell. Not only big and dangerous but they tend to hang in herds. If you see one there might be more. No doubt in my mind if I lived in a region with moose or Grizzles I'd probably not ride MTB trails at night.

    Goodness, three sets of batteries. You must do a lot of riding at night. Well, if you don't mind carrying the extra weight more power to you. Of course all of this depends on the size/weight of the batteries you use so three sets might not be that much of an inconvenience ( depending on what you use ). Most of my night rides only last about two hours so most times I rarely even use half of the battery capacity I have.

    You are right about people and batteries though. Most people ( I would think ) really aren't worried about how fast their batteries are aging. I know I don't but then again I try not to charge them to capacity until the actual day I am going to ride. ( best not to store on a full charge for long periods ) No reason not to be a little proactive. Good affordable battery packs are getting harder to buy over the net now simply because of the Li-ion shipping restrictions.

    Anyway, if you end up getting a 2000 plus lumen set up and you ride trails and occasionally run into another MTB'er, it would be poor manners not to lower your outputs to minimal levels. I rarely see anyone riding trails at night but when I see a hiker or another biker at night and they are moving toward me I will lower my outputs and point my helmet light away from them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Anyway, if you end up getting a 2000 plus lumen set up and you ride trails and occasionally run into another MTB'er, it would be poor manners not to lower your outputs to minimal levels.
    THIS is one of the better reasons that I've heard for needing multiple intensity levels. You encounter many riders at night on the bike trails in Minneapolis. We have the less considerate ones using bright strobes flashing at night, and even a few maroons that have red flashers on the front of their bikes!

    I believe that my previous 540 lumen light and my present 1200 faux lumen light (Which I think is actually around 500 lumens) are causing substantial glare to oncoming drivers and riders. They have the typical hotspot in the center surrounded by a wide area of lower intensity light without a sharp upper cuttoff. I try put my hand on the top of the light to reduce the glare towards oncoming riders on the bike trails. I was thinking about adding a plastic mirror on the top of the light to redirect the glary light downwards, at least until I can afford a decent light.

    This is where OL's lights seem to be very promising with a lot of light that won't blind an oncoming driver or rider.

    I'm a night owl and over 50% of my riding is at night. It's rare that I go more than 48 hours without riding at night. I've made many night rides over 3 hours long. Even my winter rides are often as long as 2 hours at night and I ride down to about -15°F. Then there are ski googles to further degrade vision, especially when they fog or frost up.

    Minneapolis is definitely pothole country. We have two seasons here. Winter and road repair. The winter slop on the road makes it more difficult to see the potholes. Then you have the ice ridges and troughs that form when the slush freezes that kick your bike sideways even with studded tires. At night it can be difficult to tell the difference between dried white salt on the road, ice, or hard packed snow patches. So good lighting is important. even at the slower speeds that you are forced to ride at with the icy roads.

    No moose around Minneapolis. But there are in northern Minnesota. Nothing will put the fear of God into you faster than a moose coming towards you in the woods with trees being mowed down by the moose. Mooses don't need no steenking trails!

    You really aren't that likely to encounter a lot of animals on the trails (Except for wabbits.) as they tend to stay away from humans. But I've encountered a herd of 7 deer on a bike path in town at night, as well as encountering deer walking down the middle of street in front of my house and then eating out of the garden. So it does happen. I've also seen big fat opossum waddling down the middle of the street in Minneapolis at night. I forgot about the skunk and fox. Usually you only see their paw prints.

    Scott Novak

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post

    I believe that my previous 540 lumen light and my present 1200 faux lumen light (Which I think is actually around 500 lumens) are causing substantial glare to oncoming drivers and riders. They have the typical hotspot in the center surrounded by a wide area of lower intensity light without a sharp upper cuttoff. I try put my hand on the top of the light to reduce the glare towards oncoming riders on the bike trails. I was thinking about adding a plastic mirror on the top of the light to redirect the glary light downwards, at least until I can afford a decent light.

    Scott Novak
    Here's some links that may interest you. When I used to run Magicshine 808's I used these to widen the beam but also gave a relative flat top (not true cutoff) to the beam that minimized pedestrians covering their eyes or looking away as I approached them on MUP's. Should fit your Brighteyes since it's a clone of the 808 and not expensive. Also a link to a Ravemen light that has a cutoff beam + a spot that you can operate separately and make a surprisingly good mtn. light too (I have one).
    Mole

    https://www.action-led-lights.com/co...ide-angle-lens

    https://www.rakclighting.com/collect...led-bike-light

    You might like this too!

    We Test Lights | Bright Eyes 1200 Lumen Test and Review

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post

    This is where OL's lights seem to be very promising with a lot of light that won't blind an oncoming driver or rider.


    They absolutely will be awesome for this particular application. In my testing I've found that even running the Road light in low is still redic bright for road riding.

    Technically the OL Road version actually exceeds FMVSS 108, so it literally is like riding with a car headlight on your bike.

    Lots of manufactures say "brighter than a car headlight" because it exceeds 1000 lumens. But I guarantee almost NONE of them can actually exceed the requirements for foreground, cutoff, and width on a vehicle. Even the Busch & Mueller stuff is a bit too narrow to hit the requirements for FMVSS.
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    MRMOLE,

    Thanks for the info. I had a feeling that the 540 Lumen rated Stanley spotlight that I had before may have been brighter, but as it was stolen I couldn't do a comparison test between it and the Bright Eyes. With the Stanley light I had added spacers under the reflector to defocus and widen the beam, which helped considerably.

    That wide angle lens might make the Bright Eyes light a bit more useful.

    Scott Novak

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post

    Anyway, if you end up getting a 2000 plus lumen set up and you ride trails and occasionally run into another MTB'er, it would be poor manners not to lower your outputs to minimal levels. I rarely see anyone riding trails at night but when I see a hiker or another biker at night and they are moving toward me I will lower my outputs and point my helmet light away from them.
    Your brightest light could be on your head, easy to look down or to the side. My interest in other colors, amber and such, came to light after an oncoming cyclist passed me on a trail. I had an 1,800 on the bars, 800s on each bar end, a 460 on each fork leg, and 950 on my head. Al going full blast. The oncoming bike had = lighting to mine, and some white reflective stripes. He came around a corner fast. I had time to say what the f-- as he went by. Ghost, klingon bird of prey, He came into view and passed in less than 2 seconds. By the time I realized it was another bike, it was too late to react. A short time later, I came upon some green reflective tape. I hit the brakes and turned before I said what the --- . It turned out to be a gate with reflective tape on it.

    The bike I was riding had a tiny bit of white reflective tape on it at the time. Soon after I found some blue reflective tape. Something uncommon on the road seems to work. It took a while to chance upon amber reflective tape. I have noticed a clear and present less danger since I added to much tape. The amber bought me more space than white or blue.

    Then I started to look around. The insistent blinking of amber lights on the trash truck did the most to make me hit the brakes or adjust my heading. The lights are what we all see first. 1, 2, 3. seconds pass before we know what the light is doing in our path, or what it is connectet to.

    Now I am trying to get amber bike lights. Why? They work.

    Next time you go out driving at night, make note of what makes you take your foot of the gas without thinking any thought.

    Put all your tail lights on your bike, lean it on a light pole next to a busy road. Notice something.

  54. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    Your brightest light could be on your head, easy to look down or to the side. My interest in other colors, amber and such, came to light after an oncoming cyclist passed me on a trail. I had an 1,800 on the bars, 800s on each bar end, a 460 on each fork leg, and 950 on my head. Al going full blast. The oncoming bike had = lighting to mine, and some white reflective stripes. He came around a corner fast. I had time to say what the f-- as he went by. Ghost, klingon bird of prey, He came into view and passed in less than 2 seconds. By the time I realized it was another bike, it was too late to react.... .
    Well you certainly are using quite a bit of light. In the example you mention above you talk about coming around a blind turn. Yep, stuff like that happens but lets be honest, it's rare when something like that happens. Likely both riders were seeing dots after that encounter. I'm sure I could have something like that happen too but I'd have to be going full tilt downhill with little time to react. Likely in that case I'd have to focus on my braking first to make sure I didn't run into someone or some-"thing" and then alter my lighting if I have the time. Of the few times I've encountered people at night on trails I usually see them well ahead of time. So far I've always had more than enough time to react. There will, of course always be the unusual situation. The only time I almost hit someone at night on a trail was when I was riding by moon light. Thank God the people ( walking ) ahead of me heard me coming and spoke up. I'll never make that mistake again. Real buzz kill to lose out on moonlight riding but one needs to consider that others may be out doing the same thing.

    Anyway, if you have a good line of sight, see someone coming and have time to react, it's always a good idea to slow first ( if moving fast ) and then consider lowering your light output.

    One thing I do on commuter paved paths when going around blind turns is make some kind of noise. Blind turns are dangerous day or night.

    About reflective tape for commuter safety; Nothing works better than the wide white DOT2 rated tape. I saw a guy tonight using 3" wide white tape on a vest. The stuff is visable awesome. That said not everyone feels the need to wear that much reflective stuff. Almost all of my bike clothing ( for road ) incorporates either reflective piping and/or added bits of reflective dots. Since I also own a roll of DOT-2 White/red tape, I use a bit of that as well. Couple all that with multiple LED lights front and rear, wheel lights, reflective spoke straws and I'm sure I would be hard to miss going down a road at night.

  55. #55
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    I do not have so many lights most nights. I was testing lights if you will. Turn this one on that one off, turn them all on ... .. I was on a sandy trail, and thought I was alone in the night.

    White 3m reflective tape is more visable or brighter. And turns ordinary cycists into ghost or fantasmas.

    The moral of the story was that different colors cause people to react differently. as a cyclist I like the reaction amber gets from cars, they give me room to breath.

    White is just to common, and it causes your pupils to shrink more than amber does. You say I should use my brain and eyes to figure out a safe course of action. I say amber causes an automatic reaction before a thought process kicks in.

    Drivers automaticaly think amber is something blocking the road, a hazard that could hurt them. At 40 mph 1 or 2 seconds is a lot of feet. Amber buys you more space on the road.

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    Take the time to make lights that work, a

    mount them here

    mount them there

    why not do it right

    instead of
    attempting to turn pennies into hundred dollar bills
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    Anything you add to a product increases the cost to manufacture. Even if it is just a single screw. .
    never hit the big time thinking like that

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    ...The moral of the story was that different colors cause people to react differently. as a cyclist I like the reaction amber gets from cars, they give me room to breath.

    White is just too common, and it causes your pupils to shrink more than amber does. You say I should use my brain and eyes to figure out a safe course of action. I say amber causes an automatic reaction before a thought process kicks in.

    Drivers automaticaly think amber is something blocking the road, a hazard that could hurt them. At 40 mph 1 or 2 seconds is a lot of feet. Amber buys you more space on the road.
    Just thought I'd address some of your thoughts; I like amber myself but only for daytime use. That said I only like it because it's different and when flashing sends the message to the viewer, "Caution". Red does the same thing as does white when all are flashing. Actually I've seen people using white flashing lights in the day pointing to the rear and even when only using 50 lumen white can be very "attention getting".

    As to whether or not amber buys you more space on the roadway I think would depend both on total luminous output and what mode ( flash or steady ) is being used. A good flash mode draws more attention IMO as it sends the "warning" message more generally associated with "caution and slowing required", from a motorist POV. Still, regardless to what color you may prefer, white LED's by virtue of their composition are always going to be rated brighter when comparing LED's of like size and type. That's just a fact. Color though does send a subliminal message to the viewer and that is why color makes a big difference. ( No one wants to see cars with white rear brake lights... )

    Now if you use an amber rear light or a red rear light of equal luminous output; personally, I'm not prepared to claim one or the other is going to give you more or less room on the road. My opinion is that if the lamp is seen, you are seen. How the person driving the vehicle reacts to seeing a cyclist using a rear lamp is going to depend on what that person feels is appropriate. Sometimes I see people swing wide of me or even change lanes when they see me riding at night and I always use red rear lamps at night. I could use amber at night I suppose but I don't really think it would make that much of a difference unless of course the amber lamp happened to be brighter.

    It needs to be said though that what is considered wrong for cars doesn't needlessly translate over to bicycles (TGFT ). In the USA a blinking rear red lamp is considered the norm for bicycles and in my opinion is much more attention-grabbing at distance than a steady light. Once again output and pattern of flash helps with how fast attention can be brought to bear if one is looking in the general direction of the cyclist using such a light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Color though does send a subliminal message to the viewer and that is why color makes a big difference.

    I suppose but I don't really think it would make that much of a difference unless of course the amber lamp happened to be brighter.
    I was not making a guess. I tried a lot of things, and spent a lot of time observing the things others tried, before I asked for amber lights.

    Unknow to most,
    subliminal color messages are used from Mcdonalds, to Subway, to the mall you shop at. Scientoligists have spent millions to learn subliminal color thought control.

    Amber buys me more space on the road. Not a guess. On the ground experiance

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    .....why not do it right

    Way more right for my trail use.....

    Open letter to Light manufacturers-dscn2194.jpg
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    Will the new updated end plate have 4 bolts, as they last longer with 4 screws instead of 2, which makes the rider safer_?
    or
    Would 2 additional screws add to much to the cost of manufacture?

    What do you do when you want to take the wheel off your bike, can you turn it upsidedown like that?

    Good idea, plenty of room for improvement. Why not spend a couple of days sober, and come up with a new improved design?
    More functional and user friendly

    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Way more right for my trail use.....

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uMWbZj-gWg

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    ....I was not making a guess. I tried a lot of things, and spent a lot of time observing the things others tried, before I asked for amber lights....


    Amber buys me more space on the road. Not a guess. On the ground experiance
    No one is implying you are guessing at what works best for you. You look at and try a couple different options and figure out what works best. Everyone does the same thing. We all make anecdotal comparisons and go with what we think works best. You are saying "Amber" buys you more space on the road and I'm saying it's the amber "LAMP" you are using that is working for you. Color isn't the only factor in how well a lamp works. Total output, good flashing options, optic use, all these things factor in to how well a lamp is working. I figure if it's bright enough, has a nice flash sequence coupled with a nice optical array it will do everything you said it will do.

    On the other hand if you have a cheap-o 30 lumen amber rear light I doubt it will garner more attention than the person using a nice red rear LED lamp flashing with 150 lumen peak intensity ( on flash ). That said I've seen more lousy red rear LED blinkies than I can shake a stick at. The market is flooded with them. The good ones are out there too but it helps to have some knowledge on the subject before you buy. I've been very happy with my Cygolite Hotshot 150. At dusk and at night it gets the job done. There are brighter rear lights out there but I'm not buying anything brighter unless it's still self-contained and lasts at least 3hrs on the maximum setting. ( not to mention I'm not willing to spend more than $100 on a rear light )

    @Vancbiker; Super cool looking custom lamp and stem mount. Great option for Gopro mounting. On a side note, my bike uses a two bolt handlebar stem clamp as well. I guess I'll have to continue living with an inferior product. Been going on 12yrs since I've owned it. Guess I should put an order in for a new stem/clamp...

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    ......@Vancbiker; Super cool looking custom lamp and stem mount. Great option for Gopro mounting. On a side note, my bike uses a two bolt handlebar stem clamp as well. I guess I'll have to continue living with an inferior product. Been going on 12yrs since I've owned it. Guess I should put an order in for a new stem/clamp...
    Yeah my inferior and short-lived 2 bolt stem is only 14 years old so I'm on borrowed time as well.

    @Chrisx;

    Not sure if it will sit upside down. When I need a wheel off I hang the bike on my service stand. I run tubeless so have not had a flat in 14 years. If I did get one on the trail I'd probably just lay it on its side as there are few level spots off the trail that would allow standing it upside down.

    I assure you I was quite sober while designing that stem faceplate. Would have been pointless to design it with 4 bolts as it would not have fit the stem. Maybe you didn't see that? If you are really concerned about it I have made 4 bolt version for those with the super durable 4 bolt stem design.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Open letter to Light manufacturers-thomson.jpg  

    Last edited by Vancbiker; 02-18-2018 at 11:07 PM.
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    @Vancbiker,

    A simple solution to @Chrisx's dilemma is to mount the light upside down. The light will be protected if the bicycle is inverted. The light would also have less obstructed airflow.

    One way to make the light a bit more theft resistant would be to use a thicker flange where the clamp bolt enters the mount, and then countersink the bolt hole and use an Allen head bolt. At the very least someone would need an Allen wrench to remove the light. If the owner really wants to make it theft resistant, they can fill the Allen heads with epoxy.

    All in all, this Go Pro stem mount is perhaps the slickest mounting solution that I've seen.

    Scott Novak

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post
    @Vancbiker,

    A simple solution to @Chrisx's dilemma is to mount the light upside down. The light will be protected if the bicycle is inverted. The light would also have less obstructed airflow.
    On my personal bike, (the one with the weak two bolt stem) mounting the light upside down would cause interference between the power cable and the stem. On my customers bike, (the 4 bolt stem) inverting would work, but might end up with a cable in front of the beam. Maybe I'm the odd guy out here, but I don't typically invert my bike (it get the seat and grips wet or dirty ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post
    One way to make the light a bit more theft resistant would be to use a thicker flange where the clamp bolt enters the mount, and then countersink the bolt hole and use an Allen head bolt. At the very least someone would need an Allen wrench to remove the light. If the owner really wants to make it theft resistant, they can fill the Allen heads with epoxy.
    For my use, theft is zero concern. This is not a commuter bike that's parked in places that would expose it to that. It's either stored in my shop, in the back of my truck going to or from a trail, or on a trail. I don't use the hex bolt as shown in the picture any more. That was a Ti bolt and it was trying to gall with the aluminum mount due to repeated mounting/dismounting . So much for the Ti bling. I now use a stainless Allen bolt. If one were using a GoPro mounted light in a high theft risk area, a tamper resistant button head Allen bolt or filling the head per your idea would, IMO, foil the great majority of light thieves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Novak View Post
    All in all, this Go Pro stem mount is perhaps the slickest mounting solution that I've seen.
    Thanks. It is the best setup I've used. Mainly posted to illustrate that there are so many possible mounting options that a manufacturer can not address all possibilities. No matter what options are provided, there will be some that don't find what works for them.
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    @Vancbiker,

    About the only reason that I might invert my bicycle on the trail would be to deal an emergency truing of a wheel with a broken spoke or a bent rim. Otherwise I can't think of a need to invert my bicycle.

    If the need to invert a bicycle existed, with your stem mount you could just adjust the light downward to get it out of the way, or remove the mounting bolt and the light

    Scott Novak

  66. #66
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    In an open letter we need to advise against all band mounts. They bounce, your light is no longer focused in the correct place, and I have to replace it. If you're riding a smooth dirt path they work, but not for trails that put the words "mountain" back into mountain biking.
    There is not much choice between rotten apples.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    In an open letter we need to advise against all band mounts. They bounce, your light is no longer focused in the correct place, and I have to replace it. If you're riding a smooth dirt path they work, but not for trails that put the words "mountain" back into mountain biking.
    I think it's pretty much already a well know fact that the O-ring / rubber type mounts will almost universally suck when it comes to the cheaper lamps. The heavier the lamp the more it tends to suck. It really does though depend on the size /weight of the lamp being used, the design of the mount, the type of O-ring and the size of the handlebars in relation to the O-ring being used. I've been using the O-ring type mount on my Gloworm X2 for years and have never had a problem. Gloworm makes better mounting now but I've never felt the need to upgrade. Now with all this said I've had more problems with cheap clamp mounts than with the O-ring type. Sometimes I just have to wonder why some of the lamp manufacturers seem to totally drop the ball when it comes to basic, "universally easy to use, easy to adjust", mount design.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Sometimes I just have to wonder why some of the lamp manufacturers seem to totally drop the ball when it comes to basic, "universally easy to use, easy to adjust", mount design.
    My guess is that it's because a better mount doesn't increase the lumen output that they can grossly exaggerate in their advertising claims.

    I've noted that in some cases it can help to add some grabby material such as a piece of clean inner tube underneath the mount. I haven't tried it yet on a light mount, but hairspray really works well to keep handgrips in place. So why not underneath a light mount?

    Scott Novak

  69. #69
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    ...The point I was making was that we shouldn't have to use shims or other methods to fix what shouldn't have to be fixed in the first place. The type of bar mount I've always preferred is the type that uses an adjustable cam-type clamp....this works by adjusting the clamp which then snap-locks in place. Because the clamp uses a set pivot point you can usually adjust the clamp to the desired tightness without having to use some kind of shim. Properly adjusted the cam-clamp pivots into place and locks down with the tension of a pair of vice-grips Sadly with some of the tapered handlebars even these types of mounts sometimes won't get the needed surface contact to prevent slippage.

    On a side note, the friction tape they sell for baseball bats will sometimes help when the simple rubber shims won't. I've used the Lizard Skins version when simple rubber shims failed to give the need surface contact.

  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    ...The point I was making was that we shouldn't have to use shims or other methods to fix what shouldn't have to be fixed in the first place.

    The first time I truly felt the need for some light mounted on the fork legs was rolling down this hill at night. There are places in the world where you make sharp turns at slow speeds. A bar light just does not light the place where the tire touches the ground. Yea the bar light worked fine in the dry creek bed further down and closer to town, but I got some bruises from the knee deep ruts up the hill.


    Today I am worried about insects. Some places have to many bugs. In Guatemala I noticed a lot of motor bikes with blue head lights. I suspect this has something to do with insects. The thought of using a head lamp in the jungle = no. A white bar light gets to many bugs hitting me as well. I noticed the bugs also like my green head lamp. I do not have a blue or amber head lamp to try in the insect intense area

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    The first time I truly felt the need for some light mounted on the fork legs was rolling down this hill at night. There are places in the world where you make sharp turns at slow speeds. A bar light just does not light the place where the tire touches the ground.

    Today I am worried about insects. Some places have to many bugs. In Guatemala I noticed a lot of motor bikes with blue head lights. I suspect this has something to do with insects. A white bar light gets to many bugs hitting me as well. I noticed the bugs also like my green head lamp. I do not have a blue or amber head lamp to try in the insect intense area
    For offroad use there'e dedicated lamps with beam angle greater than 120°. Like Magicshine, Lupine or YinDing.

    Insects are attracted by lower frequency light, especially UV. Since bike lights are LED, UV emissions are nearly zero. So color temperature can maybe influence insects a bit, but not as much as the difference HID/LED.
    Yellow/amber/red LED lights attract less insects than other colors.
    But there'll always be insects, as more as slower you drive. Light can only be choosed to not attract more.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by angerdan View Post
    Insects are attracted by lower frequency light, especially UV.
    Ultraviolet is a higher light frequency than the visible light spectrum.

    The LEDs used for bicycle lights do produce a small amount of ultraviolet light. But nowhere near as much as other lighting types such as HID or fluorescent.

    There are LEDs being made specifically to produce ultraviolet light, but they aren't very efficient compared to those designed to produce visible light.

    If bugs are really an issue to someone, they could also rig their light with an ultraviolet filter like those used on camera lenses.

    Scott Novak

  73. #73
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    Bugs = free nutrition and dont even have to stop, just open up and munch away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Bugs = free nutrition and dont even have to stop, just open up and munch away.
    But you don't know which chemicals and diseases they carry...

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by angerdan View Post
    But you don't know which chemicals and diseases they carry...
    We are exposed to way worse via our normal food supply. Bugs are healthier.

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  77. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    We are exposed to way worse via our normal food supply. Bugs are healthier.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    ¨Through mosquito bites
    Zika virus is transmitted to people primarily through the bite of an infected Aedes species mosquito (Ae. aegypti and Ae. albopictus). These are the same mosquitoes that spread dengue and chikungunya viruses.¨



    Did you sell enough lights to start smoking some funny stuff?

    _______________________________________________

    Nutrition facts aside,
    Would mounting lights near the axel get the insects crashing into you shoes instead of you eyes and yuck, your mouth?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    With the bike light sellers concentrating on nutrition. the most immediate solution would be to mount the lights lower. Sounds like research has been done on bug attraction and no attraction light frequency. Are there any leaders in the light industry, a true visionary man, to lead the way, and make lights to serve us better?

    To much to hope for, go eat a bug.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    ¨Through mosquito bites
    Zika virus is transmitted to people primarily through the bite of an infected Aedes species mosquito (Ae. aegypti and Ae. albopictus). These are the same mosquitoes that spread dengue and chikungunya viruses.¨



    Did you sell enough lights to start smoking some funny stuff?

    _______________________________________________

    Nutrition facts aside,
    Would mounting lights near the axel get the insects crashing into you shoes instead of you eyes and yuck, your mouth?

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    With the bike light sellers concentrating on nutrition. the most immediate solution would be to mount the lights lower. Sounds like research has been done on bug attraction and no attraction light frequency. Are there any leaders in the light industry, a true visionary man, to lead the way, and make lights to serve us better?

    To much to hope for, go eat a bug.
    Dude you need a sense of humor sheesh.

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  79. #79
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    IME, low mounted lights are only helpful when it's dusty, foggy, misty etc. Maybe snowing too, but I don't ride when it's that cold out. Bugs? Lots better things to be concerned about. Like is the beer gonna be cold at the end of the ride.
    Last edited by Vancbiker; 04-21-2018 at 08:49 PM.
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    I just got home from my ride and opened a bottle of ice cold Double Bock. It's my reward for repairing bicycles for two friends today.

    Scott Novak

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    ¨Through mosquito bites
    Zika virus is transmitted to people primarily through the bite of an infected Aedes species mosquito (Ae. aegypti and Ae. albopictus). These are the same mosquitoes that spread dengue and chikungunya viruses...¨
    Have faith in your digestive system. The acids within you digestive system are going to kill off a lot of stuff way before they enter your blood stream. Mosquitos spread disease by injecting their nasties directly into your blood stream. Viruses usually spread through access to the more easily available mucus membranes of the eyes, nose, and lungs. I wouldn't worry too much about eating a few bugs. Worry more about what micro-nasties are covering the door knobs you use every day and how many times you touch your nose and eyes before washing your hands.

    I've only had night time "bug trouble" on only a few rides. Usually this only happens during the time of year when gnats are swarming. Thankfully they don't do this in my region all the time or it would be a real bitch riding at night. The biggest problem with swarms of gnats is that they can get in your eyes and cause a real problem....not to mention no fun trying to spit out a mouth full of gnats.

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    Around here the gnats usually only come out at dusk and then disappear for the night. I'm more concerned with them getting in my eyes that eating a few.

    Scott Novak

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I wouldn't worry too much about eating a few bugs. Worry more about what micro-nasties are covering the door knobs you use every day and how many times you touch your nose and eyes before washing your hands.

    So, if I rub my eyes to get a bug off my face, I catch a virus from the door knob at the library.

    The fact is, the flu virus spreads through door knobs and hand shakes more than any other method.

    Oh no, as I typed this, I rubbed my eye, other people have used this key board today.

    If I had bugless bike lights, I could be out in the jungle, where there are no door knobs.

    Should I just wait for the full moon, and go lightless?

    29th of April for a full moon, better get a move on.

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    As spring turns into summer, maybe people will want to think about how to ride at night without getting pelted with bugs.

    There are as many bugs in the Kansas brush as there are Peten Guatemala.

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    There is plenty of room for improvement in the bike light.
    The guy that makes lights may not know what we want or need.
    So are you happy with the light you have?
    or
    Are you able to think of something the bike light guy could consider as he designs his 2020 line?

    ,,,,

    oh no I just rubbed my nose again

  84. #84
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    There is one problem, if you want to be able to see where your going then bugs are attracted to the light, there is no way around that. Go riding around with a pure red light is pretty much useless but you decide if being able to ride more than slow or dealing with bugs is what you want to do.

    Now there are LEDs that are better than others when it comes to bugs. Neutral white is a good start (and exists readily all over the place) and the more warm white is even more of an improvement. Neutral white is a huge improvement though.

    But riders have put brightness first, weight second and being able to see last. Bug issues arent even on the list. But neutral white lights do make a difference and several companies have them. As well as an elite few can possibly change LEDs to something more conducive to your needs.

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    Must be a regional thing. I rarely hit a bug on a night ride or at least rarely notice it.. Not many posts on this forum anyway about bugs while night riding.

    Now, daytime riding in the PNW mountains in about 2-6 weeks depending on elevation will be a different story. Some of the lakes areas will have skeeters so thick you'll wonder how much blood you'd lose if you had to stop to fix something. They mostly seem to go away at night though.
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  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Must be a regional thing. I rarely hit a bug on a night ride or at least rarely notice it.. Not many posts on this forum anyway about bugs while night riding.

    Now, daytime riding in the PNW mountains in about 2-6 weeks depending on elevation will be a different story. Some of the lakes areas will have skeeters so thick you'll wonder how much blood you'd lose if you had to stop to fix something. They mostly seem to go away at night though.
    Our skeeters are backwards, come out at night. I usually get a few bug hits at night but nothing serious. Occasional one in the mouth. Its the spider webs spanning the trails I dont like.

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  87. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    Our skeeters are backwards, come out at night. I usually get a few bug hits at night but nothing serious. Occasional one in the mouth. Its the spider webs spanning the trails I dont like.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

    Mosquito feeding times are concentrated a couple of hours after dusk and a couple of hours before dawn. This is because that is when their prey is most active around their breeding grounds. Animals come out to take a drink at the watering holes and are bitten.
    We bikers are perfect hosts for mosquitoes because are infrared signature is very high (high physical activity), and are CO2 output is elevated from the high physical activity. I use to ride all summer at night in Michigan but tried to go out around midnight to lesson the encounters. It really worked.
    I was riding with a friend in a heavily forested area at 6pm around lots of lakes and was followed by swarms of mosquitoes. If you break down, you have to try to keep moving to keep the blood loss down.
    An anti-mosquito light filter would be a welcome addition to our night riding kit.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    So, if I rub my eyes to get a bug off my face, I catch a virus from the door knob at the library.

    The fact is, the flu virus spreads through door knobs and hand shakes more than any other method.

    Oh no, as I typed this, I rubbed my eye, other people have used this key board today.

    If I had bugless bike lights, I could be out in the jungle, where there are no door knobs.

    Should I just wait for the full moon, and go lightless?

    29th of April for a full moon, better get a move on.

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    As spring turns into summer, maybe people will want to think about how to ride at night without getting pelted with bugs.

    There are as many bugs in the Kansas brush as there are Peten Guatemala.

    ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    There is plenty of room for improvement in the bike light.
    The guy that makes lights may not know what we want or need.
    So are you happy with the light you have?
    or
    Are you able to think of something the bike light guy could consider as he designs his 2020 line?

    ,,,,

    oh no I just rubbed my nose again
    In my line of work I routinely go in and out of Doctors offices and Hospitals all day long. Need I say, this is where the sick people are. Some 20 plus years ago I use to be very careless in how I touched my nose and eyes. I use to get the flu almost every year but that was when I was much younger. Then I got educated. Very rarely touch the insides of my nose or wipe my eyes when I'm at work. Once I started doing that I only got the flu maybe every five years to ten years or so ( not that I've kept an exact count ). That said just being careful not to touch my face unless my hands are clean has made a big difference. Now that I'm over 60 I also make sure I get a wide spectrum flu shot every other year. The last flu I had was probably about 5-6 years ago. I got the shot this year because the current strain of flu was suppose to be nasty. I also carry an alcohol gel product in the work vehicle so I lather up the hands every couple hours. ( edit...if you have school age kids you live in a germ factory. )

  89. #89
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    I can see it already, next light coming out of China will incorporate a bug zapper into it.

    Sounds like you guys need to try making one of these - Sparking Bike Light/Bug Zapper

    ***

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    There is one problem,

    Now there are LEDs that are better than others when it comes to bugs. Neutral white is a good start
    I suspect 1 or more of my lights are neutral white, though I dont know which one. My Fenix head lamp is just a little more on the yellow side, and is easier on the eyes after 5 hours. I noticed, in the insect area, that the wide beam, of my Black Diamond head lamp, pointed down, had a small attraction to bugs, and the spot, pointed out brought many bugs before I could look around.

    Every person should look through a microscope. Once you look at a virus, cat mans words make sence. See the water filter thread for a description of a virus and the size of them. They are smaller than 0.1 microns, if anyone knows what that means.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    In my line of work I routinely go in and out of Doctors offices and Hospitals all day long. Need I say, this is where the sick people are. Some 20 plus years ago I use to be very careless in how I touched my nose and eyes. I use to get the flu almost every year but that was when I was much younger. Then I got educated. Very rarely touch the insides of my nose or wipe my eyes when I'm at work. Once I started doing that I only got the flu maybe every five years to ten years or so ( not that I've kept an exact count ). That said just being careful not to touch my face unless my hands are clean has made a big difference. Now that I'm over 60 I also make sure I get a wide spectrum flu shot every other year. The last flu I had was probably about 5-6 years ago. I got the shot this year because the current strain of flu was suppose to be nasty. I also carry an alcohol gel product in the work vehicle so I lather up the hands every couple hours. ( edit...if you have school age kids you live in a germ factory. )

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    The fenix is likely neutral white, if you laid them out the number of bugs coming after it is likely noticeably less.

    I know plenty about virus' Some are rather nasty. Some are barely worth a mention.

    Fyi Mosquitos could give a rats anus about a light source. Theyll find you by what your skin excretes. If your insanely concerned about Zika and others carried by mosquitoes your light choices are going to matter very little. Use insect repellent with DEET (toxic so use with caution but mosquitos hate the stuff). There are other natural forms but problem is that if you have more than one species of them its going to be hard to find what works. Run into that here. Lemon grass is great for one time, other type almost seems attracted to it.

    Lights with high levels of blue light or UV light are bug magnets. Thats why "daylight" and "cool white" leds attract them by droves. Now neutral/warm white leds whos bins are more into the red light will attract a lot less but not solve the problem totally.

    That said, we've been warm for 3 days and already seeing the little asshats....

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  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    ....They are smaller than 0.1 microns, if anyone knows what that means.
    Of course, it's .0001mm or ~4 millionths of an inch. Pretty small to most of us but a country mile to the silicon wafer folks working in the 14-20 nanometer world which is .014 microns.
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by scar View Post
    I can see it already, next light coming out of China will incorporate a bug zapper into it.

    Sounds like you guys need to try making one of these - Sparking Bike Light/Bug Zapper

    ***
    China??? Hell it's on the feature list now for ours.
    Outbound Lighting!
    THE WAIT IS OVER! SHIPPING NOW!

  94. #94
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    Ravemen: , Outbound Lighting! is working on a bug bike light. if you wait to long, they will get 1 or possibly 2 years as a monopoly.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post

    Fyi Mosquitos could give a rats anus about a light source. Theyll find you by what your skin excretes.

    That said, we've been warm for 3 days and already seeing the little asshats....
    What about fruit flys? They are very colorful and drink far more blood than a tiny little mosquito?

    Mosquitos are not the only bug out there. Many a non blood drinking bug pelts a person on a night ride. Swatting moths with one hand and shifting gears with the other could be dangerous or at least unfun.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    Ravemen: , Outbound Lighting! is working on a bug bike light. if you wait to long, they will get 1 or possibly 2 years as a monopoly.



    What about fruit flys? They are very colorful and drink far more blood than a tiny little mosquito?

    Mosquitos are not the only bug out there. Many a non blood drinking bug pelts a person on a night ride. Swatting moths with one hand and shifting gears with the other could be dangerous or at least unfun.
    What does Ravemen have to do with it lol?

    All these bug complaints there is really only 1 option if it bugs you that much, stick to riding during the day if you cant ride fast enough to keep bugs from catching up.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAKC Ind View Post
    What does Ravemen have to do with it lol?

    All these bug complaints there is really only 1 option if it bugs you that much, stick to riding during the day if you cant ride fast enough to keep bugs from catching up.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    maybe I should get an old fashioned oil lantern

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    maybe I should get an old fashioned oil lantern
    Only if it comes with fork leg mounting.
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  98. #98
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    What about the flashing amber tail light?
    If I have to ride on the road up into Ixil, or out to the Washington coast to excape the moths and insects, can I at least get a new improved cob light in amber, or some other color that lets the bus driver know there is something unusual in the raod?

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
    What about the flashing amber tail light?
    Dinotte has an amber flasher. They call it a headlight, but might be OK as a taillight.

    2018 Quad Amber Headlight with built in battery – DiNotte Lighting USA Online Store
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  100. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Dinotte has an amber flasher. They call it a headlight, but might be OK as a taillight.

    2018 Quad Amber Headlight with built in battery – DiNotte Lighting USA Online Store
    RETAIL: $189.00 $170.10
    jumbo deluxe for sure
    not a reasonable price

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