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  1. #1
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    NEW Magichine and Geoman Battery- First Impressions

    OK, first off I want to mention that I was one of the first purchasers/users of the original Magicshine when it came out. I think I bought mine when it was only out a few weeks. I sent my old batteries in just over a week ago. That being said, I NEVER had any issues with the old batteries. I was still getting close to 2.5 hours on BOTH my batteries and 2 lightheads set on HIGH. Over 150+ cycles on the first battery and maybe 50 on the other. They were awesome, but I sent them in for recall replacement.

    Now, in the mean time I went ahead and ordered a NEW complete lightset... so this would gives me 3- 900's! I ordered it with the new Geoman battery. Yesterday I placed the battery on the new charger and it charger for 2 hours and 50 minutes which seemed very normal. I always unplug as soon as I see the charger indicator green (never liked the idea of letting it sit on a charger after its fully charged). This morning I woke at 4am for an early morning ride with a couple of buddies. One has a NEW Geoman battery that he just received also and that he charged the same way the day before as I did. He hooked his to his old light and I used my new light I got with the battery. So, off we went. After only 30 minutes my indicator light on the back of my light turned Blue. In about 30-35 more minutes it was yellow/amber... and 30-35 more minutes it was RED. Wow... total disappointment to say the least. I turned the battery off at this point. So basically I got 1hr 40mins of burn time on high and thats it. My buddy who was also using the NEW Geoman battery stayed green nearly the entire ride and only changed to blue towards the end (just slightly less then 2hr) which seems more normal. I am pretty disappointed in the consistency between the 2 NEW batteries. I LOVED my old batteries and only returned them because of the recall. Hopefully when I receive the recall replacements I will have longer running batteries!

    I've been very high on Magicshine and Geoman and have got at least 10 guys to buy them and many of them have purchased multiple lights. Some of those guys did have problems with there old batteries. Hopefully the issues don't start cropping up again.

    I would like to mention that the design of the new battery enclosure is fantastic and mounts very easy. I mounted my battery in a spot I have never been able too before... right on the seat post and it never moved in the slightest. There was a lot of thought put into the design and engineering. Hopefully my batteries short run time was an isolated issue and maybe needed a little break in period (hey... one can only hope..right!!!)

    Lastly, I am just posting this to give my take on MY experiences with the new setup. Its NOT to bash or make anyone look bad. I DO 100% recommend the purchase of ALL lights from Geoman.

  2. #2
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    I think I read on another bikelight manufacturer website that Lithium Ion Batteries needs to be fully charged and discharged 4-5 cyclings before it can perform its top peak.
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  3. #3
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    I've got a set of the 900s. You just convinced me to hold on to it and continue to use it. I hate replacing things that aren't broke. When it dies on me, I'll buy a new battery.
    2010 Trek Rumblefish
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakuman
    I think I read on another bikelight manufacturer website that Lithium Ion Batteries needs to be fully charged and discharged 4-5 cyclings before it can perform its top peak.
    That is a completely false statement that's been propagated by some uninformed bike light makers. All Li-ion batteries will have their highest capacity on the very first charge. Capacity drops a tiny amount for each cycle after the first one.

    This was true of nickle based batter technology, but it's not true of Li-ion batteries.

  5. #5
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    My bad I read it on Bikerays site I took it to be fact again my bad I guess you cannot believe everything you read http://www.bikerayusa.com/parts--accessories.html
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  6. #6
    GeoMan
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    Please email us on geoman@geomangear.com

    This may actually be the fuel guage on the lighthead causing this issue, we have noted that the new XM-L MJ-808 does this and we have contacted Magicshine as we have been getting 90 mins of burntime on high once the lighthead indicator turns red.

    The best test to prove/disprove this theory is to do a full burntime test on high, regardless of indicator color to see if you are getting full burntime.

    Thanks GeoMan

    Quote Originally Posted by MOMtbiker
    OK, first off I want to mention that I was one of the first purchasers/users of the original Magicshine when it came out. I think I bought mine when it was only out a few weeks. I sent my old batteries in just over a week ago. That being said, I NEVER had any issues with the old batteries. I was still getting close to 2.5 hours on BOTH my batteries and 2 lightheads set on HIGH. Over 150+ cycles on the first battery and maybe 50 on the other. They were awesome, but I sent them in for recall replacement.

    Now, in the mean time I went ahead and ordered a NEW complete lightset... so this would gives me 3- 900's! I ordered it with the new Geoman battery. Yesterday I placed the battery on the new charger and it charger for 2 hours and 50 minutes which seemed very normal. I always unplug as soon as I see the charger indicator green (never liked the idea of letting it sit on a charger after its fully charged). This morning I woke at 4am for an early morning ride with a couple of buddies. One has a NEW Geoman battery that he just received also and that he charged the same way the day before as I did. He hooked his to his old light and I used my new light I got with the battery. So, off we went. After only 30 minutes my indicator light on the back of my light turned Blue. In about 30-35 more minutes it was yellow/amber... and 30-35 more minutes it was RED. Wow... total disappointment to say the least. I turned the battery off at this point. So basically I got 1hr 40mins of burn time on high and thats it. My buddy who was also using the NEW Geoman battery stayed green nearly the entire ride and only changed to blue towards the end (just slightly less then 2hr) which seems more normal. I am pretty disappointed in the consistency between the 2 NEW batteries. I LOVED my old batteries and only returned them because of the recall. Hopefully when I receive the recall replacements I will have longer running batteries!

    I've been very high on Magicshine and Geoman and have got at least 10 guys to buy them and many of them have purchased multiple lights. Some of those guys did have problems with there old batteries. Hopefully the issues don't start cropping up again.

    I would like to mention that the design of the new battery enclosure is fantastic and mounts very easy. I mounted my battery in a spot I have never been able too before... right on the seat post and it never moved in the slightest. There was a lot of thought put into the design and engineering. Hopefully my batteries short run time was an isolated issue and maybe needed a little break in period (hey... one can only hope..right!!!)

    Lastly, I am just posting this to give my take on MY experiences with the new setup. Its NOT to bash or make anyone look bad. I DO 100% recommend the purchase of ALL lights from Geoman.
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  7. #7
    GeoMan
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    MtbMac does have it correct, there should be a very gradual loss of overall runtime as age and number of cycles increases, the specs on our website show the Panasonic anticipated loss of capacity. Thanks GeoMan

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakuman
    My bad I read it on Bikerays site I took it to be fact again my bad I guess you cannot believe everything you read http://www.bikerayusa.com/parts--accessories.html
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  8. #8
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    I'll try using my other older light head that also has the fuel gauge on it and see if it does the same thing. It always worked fine in the past so this will give me a good comparison. Also, I will run the light on high until it turns off to get an idea of true total run time. Hopefully the battery is not the problem.





    Quote Originally Posted by GEOMAN
    Please email us on geoman@geomangear.com

    This may actually be the fuel guage on the lighthead causing this issue, we have noted that the new XM-L MJ-808 does this and we have contacted Magicshine as we have been getting 90 mins of burntime on high once the lighthead indicator turns red.

    The best test to prove/disprove this theory is to do a full burntime test on high, regardless of indicator color to see if you are getting full burntime.

    Thanks GeoMan

  9. #9
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    Forget the indicators...Sometimes the first charge will not go right. If you only charged battery for about two hours you did not get a complete charge, regardless what the indicator lights do.

    Run the lights for a couple hours and then do a recharge. A complete charge should take at least 5 hrs or more I would think. If this issue does not resolve itself after a couple cycles you could have a problem.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakuman
    My bad I read it on Bikerays site I took it to be fact again my bad I guess you cannot believe everything you read http://www.bikerayusa.com/parts--accessories.html
    Most of batteries from manufactures don't come fully charged. The batteries are charged very initial state of 20-40%.
    The reason why we have stated as 4-5 cycling time, because it is better than running strait out of box, or not waiting until chemistry cools down after charged.
    What "Battery University.com" says When estimating longevity, these conditions are difficult to assess because the battery state is in constant flux, and so is the temperature in which it operates. Exposing the battery to high temperature and being at full state-of-charge for an extended time can be more damaging than cycling. Manufacturers do not like to talk about these environmental conditions and release information only in confidence when so requested.

    Please refer the link under the battery section from our site.

    All our batteries are cycled in our facility an average of 2 times before we ship them out. This step is to prevent damages that could be caused by misuse from first time.
    Team BikeRay USA
    LED Bike Lights

  11. #11
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    Good to know Thanks Bikeray for clarifying
    I always type in bold cuz I'm blind as a bat
    For the Rich there is therapy!!!! for the rest of us we have Mountain Biking


  12. #12
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    ive noticed that the indicator lights on my ms lightheads will somtimes give 'false indication' of the battery status. its not at all a big deal to me as they have never died on the trail, but i have sat there and watched it go from green to blue back to green. sometimes wiggling the connector will make it go back to green again. ive even switched the battery to the other lighthead and it will go green and stay green, sometimes lol.

    anyway i guess the point im trying to make is that i agree it may be a function of the lighthead indicator acting up, not the battery. i allways charge mine before a ride so i know i have at least 2 hrs riding time no matter what the silly light says
    Quote Originally Posted by HamfisT
    I understand that engineering has value in and of itself. But in the end, it's still just a pile of aluminum tubes.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick d
    ive noticed that the indicator lights on my ms light heads will sometimes give 'false indication' of the battery status. its not at all a big deal to me as they have never died on the trail, but i have sat there and watched it go from green to blue back to green. sometimes wiggling the connector will make it go back to green again. ive even switched the battery to the other lighthead and it will go green and stay green, sometimes lol.

    anyway i guess the point im trying to make is that i agree it may be a function of the light head indicator acting up, not the battery. i always charge mine before a ride so i know i have at least 2 hrs riding time no matter what the silly light says
    ....yes and silly lights they can be at times , I agree. I had the same thing happen to one of my Dinotte batteries one time. Likely I had charged a battery that hadn't been used in a good while. The charger indicated the battery was charged. After about 40 minutes I got my first warning flash for low battery. All I could think at the time was..WTF? When I charged it again for the next ride it worked fine after that.

    I think a lot of this has to do with cell self-discharge rates on batteries that either aren't being used regularly or are new and haven't had a chance to self balance on a full charge. If true that would certainly be enough to throw the voltage indicator circuits off the mark.

    One needs to remember that the circuitry used in these kinds of lights to monitor voltage levels are undoubtedly not on par with the electronics used in something like a space Shuttle. These circuits are likely very basic. Any miscellaneous unusual voltage drop could be enough to throw the circuit off and give a premature false reading. Always be sure to clean your connectors, both on the light head/battery and the charger as oxidation on the connectors can cause more of a voltage drop between the battery and light head. I recommend buying some deox cleaner or some simple automotive aluminum wheel cleaner. Rubbing Alcohol will work in a pinch but I personally like the car stuff. Use a Q-tip ( cotton swab ) to get into the tight spaces of the connectors. If the battery uses a female end piece, be careful. You might short the battery. If this happens it is usually not a big deal as most battery PCB's protection will cut the current off. To reset, just put it back on the charger ( after the cleaner has dried ). Once on the charger the PCB will reset the battery and it should work as normal. With that said be sure all your connectors are well connected when you are ready to use your lights.

    Another source of voltage drop can be an unusually long power cord to the battery. The shorter the wire used the better. Don't be surprised if when you clean all of your connectors and shorten the cord ( if needed ) that your light will seem to be brighter when freshly charged.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerayusa
    Most of batteries from manufactures don't come fully charged. The batteries are charged very initial state of 20-40%.
    The reason why we have stated as 4-5 cycling time, because it is better than running strait out of box, or not waiting until chemistry cools down after charged.
    At the charge rates used with bike lights, the batteries will never have to cool down after charging. That only happens at much higher charge rates uses in applications such as electric vehicles.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerayusa
    All our batteries are cycled in our facility an average of 2 times before we ship them out. This step is to prevent damages that could be caused by misuse from first time.
    I can understand test cycling the batteries before shipping them out as a way to detect and remove defective ones that escaped the poor quality controls at the manufacturing plant, but the only way this would prevent "damages that could be caused by misuse from first time" is if the protection circuits in the battery are poorly designed. Can you expand on the scenario where damage is caused by misuse the first time?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtbMacgyver
    At the charge rates used with bike lights, the batteries will never have to cool down after charging. That only happens at much higher charge rates uses in applications such as electric vehicles.



    I can understand test cycling the batteries before shipping them out as a way to detect and remove defective ones that escaped the poor quality controls at the manufacturing plant, but the only way this would prevent "damages that could be caused by misuse from first time" is if the protection circuits in the battery are poorly designed. Can you expand on the scenario where damage is caused by misuse the first time?
    Dear MtbMacgyver;
    Thank you for your post.
    If you go http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...ased_batteries
    there you will find many valuable information about general issues of LI batteries.

    Needless to say, they are one of very best batteries available on these days.
    Yet, as most of batteries, for car, boat, cell phone, or rc toys, All agrees initial cycling is best way to keep batteries for longer time usage and prolong its life.
    On based of those comments from manufactures and users, we perform few cyclings before we ship them out.
    However, that wasn't initial intention after all. Initial intention was to check every battery, light head and their components after we receive them and before we sell the units.

    Anything could easily cause damage(s) to the battery or even charger.
    It has nothing to do poor design at this point. As you may say, and we all may do, most of inventions didn't come out from China. China is good on making products at lowest cost possible.
    Yes, they do have capacity to make their own. But not on BikeRay battery issue. Its quality is based on long time supplier for many big companies for here and many other countries.

    Hopefully I answered you question right way.

    Thank you for your interest.
    Team BikeRay USA
    LED Bike Lights

  16. #16
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    Yes, batteryuniversity.com is a fairly good source of accurate information on Li-Ion batteries, but lacks many of the specific detailed technical data that is contained in the datasheets and application guides from Sanyo, Panasonic, and LG.

    However, your reply actually reinforces my specific concern, which is primarily the spread of inaccurate information. The following statements is true for many types of batteries but is completely incorrect for Li-Ion cells. Furthermore, the source you quote clearly shows that your statement is false. If you go back and look at the batteryuniversity.com site again, you'll notice that every single graph that shows capacity vs cycles has a negative slope.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerayusa
    Yet, as most of batteries, for car, boat, cell phone, or rc toys, All agrees initial cycling is best way to keep batteries for longer time usage and prolong its life.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtbMacgyver
    Yes, batteryuniversity.com is a fairly good source of accurate information on Li-Ion batteries, but lacks many of the specific detailed technical data that is contained in the datasheets and application guides from Sanyo, Panasonic, and LG.

    However, your reply actually reinforces my specific concern, which is primarily the spread of inaccurate information. The following statements is true for many types of batteries but is completely incorrect for Li-Ion cells. Furthermore, the source you quote clearly shows that your statement is false. If you go back and look at the batteryuniversity.com site again, you'll notice that every single graph that shows capacity vs cycles has a negative slope.
    You are right about batteryuniversity.com
    However, most us really don't need anymore info than what they have posted. At least that is more than fair for me.

    About you saying my statement is false, I don't believe I made any false statement.
    Anything has its life and they will wear out at some point. Cycling will do same but it is better than not doing it.
    And if you read my statement again, we are doing this step to re-assure the quality and its components before anything happens with customer. Absolutely has nothing to do with designs etc. Also, we are not batter manufacture. We make and market lights.

    What we are trying to do here, is quality control. Not how its made~!
    Team BikeRay USA
    LED Bike Lights

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerayusa
    You are right about batteryuniversity.com
    However, most us really don't need anymore info than what they have posted. At least that is more than fair for me.

    About you saying my statement is false, I don't believe I made any false statement.
    Anything has its life and they will wear out at some point. Cycling will do same but it is better than not doing it.
    And if you read my statement again, we are doing this step to re-assure the quality and its components before anything happens with customer. Absolutely has nothing to do with designs etc. Also, we are not batter manufacture. We make and market lights.

    What we are trying to do here, is quality control. Not how its made~!
    Forgot to ask you.....I got bad memories....
    How can you explain why some LI batteries gain their performance time after few uses or cycles~?
    Not all, but many do.
    I remember reading it here mtbr.... not from our batteries but someone mentioned that.
    Team BikeRay USA
    LED Bike Lights

  19. #19
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    If I am correct, Cat Man knows a lot more than I do on this issue.

    Any light company, they don't make every single component by themselves. It is all about sourcing the right parts and components for their product, and putting them together to give what it was intended to. In this process, some mistakes could occure. And that is what we are trying to find.

    As we are too, we concentrate on its quality and components that we get from many suppliers.
    Sorry that I don't make batteries....! But we get from one of the best supplier.
    Team BikeRay USA
    LED Bike Lights

  20. #20
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    About cycling Li-ion cells. Self discharge is very slow with Li-ion nevertheless if not being used for long periods of time doing a maintenance cycling every three months or so wouldn't be a bad idea. If you were doing that you would charge to full than do a partial discharge before putting back to storage. Doing this kind of cycling is intended to slow the aging of the battery, not to stop it.

    Doing a couple cycles before sending off to the customers won't guarantee the batteries won't fail but at least it will show they are working...which is better than not testing them at all. If a voltage meter shows the battery is at full charge that is a good indicator the charger is working and the battery is charging to it's peak voltage. Kudos to BR for doing some pre-testing.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    About cycling Li-ion cells. Self discharge is very slow with Li-ion nevertheless if not being used for long periods of time doing a maintenance cycling every three months or so wouldn't be a bad idea. If you were doing that you would charge to full than do a partial discharge before putting back to storage. Doing this kind of cycling is intended to slow the aging of the battery, not to stop it.

    Doing a couple cycles before sending off to the customers won't guarantee the batteries won't fail but at least it will show they are working...which is better than not testing them at all. If a voltage meter shows the battery is at full charge that is a good indicator the charger is working and the battery is charging to it's peak voltage. Kudos to BR for doing some pre-testing.
    Hi Cat;

    Thanks a lot on your input.
    I knew I could count on you.
    Team BikeRay USA
    LED Bike Lights

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerayusa
    Hi Cat;

    Thanks a lot on your input.
    I knew I could count on you.
    Cycling the batteries at least once a year to prevent self discharge is not a bad idea.


    Doesn't change the fact that the statement below about "initial cycling" is incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by bikerayusa
    Yet, as most of batteries, for car, boat, cell phone, or rc toys, All agrees initial cycling is best way to keep batteries for longer time usage and prolong its life.
    Part of the reason for even pointing this out, is that telling end users that they need to cycle li-ion batteries is a common tactic used by dealers selling products with sub-standard batteries. The point of the tactic is to give end-users hope that the run time will increase to the advertised spec if they just use them for a while, then a high percentage of users just accept the situation or forget about it.

    Now I'm not saying that's what you're doing, at least I hope that's not the case. It's probably just as likely you picked this up from other incorrect information you've seen on the internet. Or it could be that you've been the victim of that same tactic from the supplier of your lights. But if the batteries are high quality, I would think you would want to be accurate in your statements.

    I'm also not criticizing the fact that you are testing your lights before sending them out. Nothing wrong with that in terms of verifying they function correctly. But, it's not really a replacement for real quality control in the manufacturing process, but that's a whole different topic that has more science behind it than most people realize, and we don't need to get into another can of worms.......

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MtbMacgyver
    Cycling the batteries at least once a year to prevent self discharge is not a bad idea.


    Doesn't change the fact that the statement below about "initial cycling" is incorrect.



    Part of the reason for even pointing this out, is that telling end users that they need to cycle li-ion batteries is a common tactic used by dealers selling products with sub-standard batteries. The point of the tactic is to give end-users hope that the run time will increase to the advertised spec if they just use them for a while, then a high percentage of users just accept the situation or forget about it.

    Now I'm not saying that's what you're doing, at least I hope that's not the case. It's probably just as likely you picked this up from other incorrect information you've seen on the internet. Or it could be that you've been the victim of that same tactic from the supplier of your lights. But if the batteries are high quality, I would think you would want to be accurate in your statements.

    I'm also not criticizing the fact that you are testing your lights before sending them out. Nothing wrong with that in terms of verifying they function correctly. But, it's not really a replacement for real quality control in the manufacturing process, but that's a whole different topic that has more science behind it than most people realize, and we don't need to get into another can of worms.......
    Hew~!
    At least you do agree on something we me.
    Thanks.

    I have 4 HTC 4G cellphones from sprint.
    And got 6 batteries, 4 original ones, and 2 high 3000ma ones.
    According to numbers, It should last at least 2 times more. However, I barely get 1.3 times.
    One other thing I have noticed is, if I remove from the charger and turn the phone on right after it is fully charged, its life is significantly shorter than what is suppossed to give. This is on all batteries that I have.
    What other thing I noticed is, if I let the battery to cool until next day, it sure does last longer.

    I also have many LI batteries from many bicycle lights. Not just old MS battery, but even LG, Panasonic cells do fail. Not all China made batteries are bad at all. There is a company who manufactures LI batteries to all over the world for high name companies. We are using their batteries for all Ray lights.
    Yes, we learnd a lot from many other high quality manufactures and put those knowledges together to make it safer and with highest quality we can achieve.

    Not only China made things go wrong, and you should agree with me on that. Don't we see all the recalls we get from car manufactures? Isn't that something~"?

    All we do is, as you said, we try to minimise any failure once its delivered.
    Team BikeRay USA
    LED Bike Lights

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerayusa
    Forgot to ask you.....I got bad memories....
    How can you explain why some LI batteries gain their performance time after few uses or cycles~?
    Not all, but many do.
    I remember reading it here mtbr.... not from our batteries but someone mentioned that.
    This is what concerns me about your information.

    Being a dealer (or whatever you are), you should be one of the best educated persons here on all aspects of your products.

    Instead, as a source of your information on your batteries, you reference "I remember reading it here mtbr.".

    "It's true because I read it on an internet forum" just doesn't cut it.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerayusa
    I have 4 HTC 4G cellphones from sprint.
    And got 6 batteries, 4 original ones, and 2 high 3000ma ones.
    According to numbers, It should last at least 2 times more. However, I barely get 1.3 times.
    One other thing I have noticed is, if I remove from the charger and turn the phone on right after it is fully charged, its life is significantly shorter than what is suppossed to give. This is on all batteries that I have.
    What other thing I noticed is, if I let the battery to cool until next day, it sure does last longer.
    not to get even further off topic, but just because a battery says "3000mAh" on it doesn't mean it is 3000mAh. I've bought plenty of batteries, NiCd, NiMh and LiIon which, when charged on a hobby charger, have considerably less capacity than stated. The only ones that I've bought that were correct (or better than stated) were some Panasonic Li-Ion cells.

    LI-ION CELLS DO NOT HEAT UP WHEN CHARGING. If they do then they're shorting out internally and should be disposed of.

    Seriously, I expect better from a bike light reseller. I would also make a habit of learning from people more knowledgeable than yourself (such as Mtbmcguyver) rather than arguing with them.

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