Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 198
  1. #1
    *R*O*W*Y*C*O*
    Reputation: PUBCRAWL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    854

    New Lupine Tesla ---700 Lumens---

    Found this over on the Lupine Forum.

    Our brand new Tesla light will provide about 700 Lumens at 12W.
    It is a single LED light, with an integrated switch, several dimmlevels and a low battery LED indicator. We are using a custom reflector, developed and made by Lupine, for a maximum of light on any terrain. The light will be available as a headlight version, called Tesla X and as a bikelight version called Tesla 4. All the sets will come with a Li-Ion battery, automatic charger and a Lupine transport softcase.
    The retail price will be around 350€.




    I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
    Hunter S. Thompson

  2. #2
    Nightriding rules SuperModerator
    Reputation: crisillo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    20,805
    looks pretty cool

  3. #3
    BBW
    BBW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BBW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,183
    I guess my 800 lm 4 LED Wilma is already obsolete
    Maybe technology is going too fast

  4. #4
    *R*O*W*Y*C*O*
    Reputation: PUBCRAWL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    I guess my 800 lm 4 LED Wilma is already obsolete
    Maybe technology is going too fast
    mmm...
    yep, here's some pictures of the new 925 Lumen Wilma





    I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
    Hunter S. Thompson

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,331
    Nice reflector, 350euro's is like Ģ300 UK, $600 USD 1/2 the price of Lupines normal offerings.

    I guess it's a P7 with a realistic light actually going forward Lumen rating

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,470
    $600 USD would be a lot, but it sure looks like a nice light!

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,331
    The Wilma is Ģ500 area I think over here so $1000, so it's alot cheaper than that.

    It's still alot for whats basically a P7 torch + good battery + good reflector though, I'd prefer to have 10 P7's strapped around my bike

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    6,212
    Cool! The switch on the back is excellent. Any weight figure?

    Quote Originally Posted by PUBCRAWL
    mmm...
    yep, here's some pictures of the new 925 Lumen Wilma





  9. #9
    Its got what plants crave
    Reputation: Jim311's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    5,934
    Cool, but I'll never be able to justify spending that much coin. This is sort of like going to a Ferrari dealership.

  10. #10
    Bigger is better!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    699
    Really looking forward to seeing beamshots of the Tesla vs Betty and Wilma. Not only amount of light but shape of the beam also.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    1
    Here the "2008 Beam comparison - Preview" from the Lupine Forum.


    Nighmare 25W Halogen



    Tesla 12W LED



    Wilma 17W LED (NEW)



    Betty 23W LED



    Stefan at Lupine wrote:
    We will release the full beam comparison with our new website. The preview pictures show the full brightness only and keep in mind it is only a comparison and we do not claim these pictures show the real life impression ... allthough it's close to it

    Just a quick note on the marks.
    1. Toy dog: 7 m
    2. Tree mark: 14 m
    3. Tree mark: 26 m
    4. Tree mark: 48 m
    5. Bike: 65 m

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,331
    23W looks kicks ass, good range and everything impressive, 1 hell of a battery draw though.

    12Watt looks comparable to my P7 with a Cree R2 running.

    The step up from 17W to 23W looks too much though, much bigger difference than the 12w - 17W for a lesser percentage. ( maybe more Spot LED's come into play though )

  13. #13
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    LOVIN' IT! Great job Stefan!!!
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    398
    Funnily the Tesla's beam looks a lot like the Dinotte 600L:
    1. it is wide (wider than the Wilma)
    2. it is bluish
    The most notable difference is a lovely accentuated spot area in the middle, which the Dinotte unfortunately does not have.
    Looks especially promising as a single bar-only solution, and for a reasonable price (compared to the other Lupines...).
    Can't wait to see what the others have - L&M at least... is 700 = 700 in lumens? ;-)

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: znomit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,877
    Note the tesla is bluer than the betty or wilma... I don't think the P7 is available in warmer tints.
    Interesting pics. Note the relatively small gains from doubling the watts. 700lm is a good level for most things, especially if you have one on bar and another on helmet, goodbye multi led lights.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,319
    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok
    Funnily the Tesla's beam looks a lot like the Dinotte 600L:
    1. it is wide (wider than the Wilma)
    2. it is bluish
    The most notable difference is a lovely accentuated spot area in the middle, which the Dinotte unfortunately does not have.
    Looks especially promising as a single bar-only solution, and for a reasonable price (compared to the other Lupines...).
    Can't wait to see what the others have - L&M at least... is 700 = 700 in lumens? ;-)
    ...about #2...yes, the P-7 led is a little bluish but it is not too noticeable except on the lower power levels. Unlike you I don't see anything that looks like an accentuated spot. All of these lights look very much like 25 degree beam patterns too me. Of course with the Betty's and Wilma's I'm sure you get a choice of optics. No doubt the 23watt lights throw for more distance simply because of the additional lumen output and tighter optics these models offer. It would be interesting to know what optics were used on the Betty and Wilma when they did the test. Just remember that all that distance throw you see in the photos is on a light colored stone surfaced road. This long throw doesn't always translate over when you start riding on trails that are darker surfaced. The Lupine stuff looks real nice and would look nice on the bars but I'm not sure I like the helmet mounting solutions they choose. I would prefer a much more cleaner looking quick-release system for the helmet.

  17. #17
    mtbr remember
    Reputation: BikeSATORI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,356
    holy smokes. Betty is one bad mamma jamma.
    Schralp it Heavy.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MaximusHQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    662
    Quote Originally Posted by Turveyd
    The step up from 17W to 23W looks too much though, much bigger difference than the 12w - 17W for a lesser percentage. ( maybe more Spot LED's come into play though )

    I have the 22 watt Betty and the 15 watt Wilma and I can tell you with those two lights that the Betty does have quite a bit more reach as well as a wider beam and the difference is very noticeable. Also as the pics show the path in front of the bikes is lit up significantly brighter with the Betty which is exactly the experience I have had with my Betty compared to the Wilma. So the pics showing the Betty looking considerably brighter don't surprise me.

    Thanks for posting the pics and also I would love to see the Tesla light head alongside the Wilma light head to get and idea of the sizes.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: yetibetty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,781
    some more pics. Lupine say "it's one of the most beautiful lights they've ever made"
    Last edited by yetibetty; 03-23-2009 at 10:25 AM.

  20. #20
    BBW
    BBW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BBW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,183
    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok
    Funnily the Tesla's beam looks a lot like the Dinotte 600L:
    1. it is wide (wider than the Wilma)
    2. it is bluish
    The most notable difference is a lovely accentuated spot area in the middle, which the Dinotte unfortunately does not have.
    Looks especially promising as a single bar-only solution, and for a reasonable price (compared to the other Lupines...).
    Can't wait to see what the others have - L&M at least... is 700 = 700 in lumens? ;-)
    Radipork in the pics the Tesla doesn't look wider than the Wilma (check the trees on the sides)
    I wonder if they are using diferent optics cause my Wilma seems less wide than the picture... My 600L wide lens is a little bit wider than my Wilma though

  21. #21
    mtbr remember
    Reputation: BikeSATORI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,356
    Quote Originally Posted by PUBCRAWL
    mmm...
    yep, here's some pictures of the new 925 Lumen Wilma





    sorry if this seems to derail the topic...

    but...
    Where, When, and for how much can I get this 925lumen version of this light????
    I am really looking into getting the Wilma 6 right now, but don't want to invest into a light that will soon be outdated or overshadowed by a new model.
    Schralp it Heavy.

  22. #22
    BBW
    BBW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BBW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,183
    Contact gretnabikes to see when available

  23. #23
    *R*O*W*Y*C*O*
    Reputation: PUBCRAWL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by BikeSATORI
    holy smokes. Betty is one bad mamma jamma.
    If you think the pictures are impressive you should see the light and it's beam pattern in person.
    Just finished a 24Hr race this weekend.
    I couldn't believe how many people commented on my Wilma 6 and Betty 6 set up.
    The lights seem to scare people right off the trail, as I rode up behind them people would simply just stop or get off the trail and let me by.
    My favourite quote from another rider as I passed him "Those are the brightest f@#king lights I've ever seen, what the hell are they?"
    Last edited by PUBCRAWL; 08-27-2008 at 04:23 AM.

    I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
    Hunter S. Thompson

  24. #24
    she keep you buying rats
    Reputation: WeakMite's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    300
    Even more new pics of the Tesla from the Lupine forum, (posted by Stefan on the 25th):








    ...and more of the new Wilma too










  25. #25
    bi-winning
    Reputation: rkj__'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    11,121
    Quote Originally Posted by PUBCRAWL
    The lights seem to scare people right off the trail, as I rode up behind them people would simply just stop or get off the trail and let me by.
    Well, yeah. All they could probably see was their own shadow.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  26. #26
    *R*O*W*Y*C*O*
    Reputation: PUBCRAWL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__
    Well, yeah. All they could probably see was their own shadow.
    mmm... never had this problem on group rides I've done using these lights.

    I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
    Hunter S. Thompson

  27. #27
    bi-winning
    Reputation: rkj__'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    11,121
    Quote Originally Posted by PUBCRAWL
    mmm... never had this problem on group rides I've done using these lights.
    I noticed the problem when i borrowed halogens for my first ever 24h night lap. When somebody would roll up behind me with an HID, there would be lots of light, but my shadow would block what I actually wanted to see.
    When under pressure, your level of performance will sink to your level of preparation.

  28. #28
    *R*O*W*Y*C*O*
    Reputation: PUBCRAWL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by rkj__
    I noticed the problem when i borrowed halogens for my first ever 24h night lap. When somebody would roll up behind me with an HID, there would be lots of light, but my shadow would block what I actually wanted to see.
    maybe... I have noticed that another Wilma and Betty set up riding behind me has absolutely no effect what so ever on my light pattern.

    As well I did noticed many riders with sub-par lighting out on the trail at HAN.
    It still amazing me what some people will put on their bikes to ride that race.
    Some of the lights (or in some cases a total lack of lights) wouldn't even be good enough for around the campsite! I think in total I came across a dozen people with faulty lighting system during my two night laps.

    If the pricing on this new Tesla comes in as Lupine has already stated (approx. $460 CDN) I know many on my team would seriously consider a purchase, especially after seeing the Lupine quality up close and personal this weekend.

    I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
    Hunter S. Thompson

  29. #29
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    I rode with 200 lumens for a group night ride or two (Dinotte). It was simply too dangerous, IMNSHO.

    I ride with a Betty 7 at 1,500 lumens now. Sometimes I'll add a smaller light on my helmet for corners, etc. The Betty provides an incredible improvement in my night riding confidence (and safety). The Betty can be programmed for different lighting lumens too - the best of all worlds. Great!

    I predict the Tesla to be a big seller. Hurry Lupine!!!

    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MaximusHQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    662
    Thanks for posting more pics. The Tesla looks nice and the small size will make it a good helmet light. The bluer beam color on the Tesla is the only thing that disappoints me a bit, but still it's not bad. The one thing I loved about the Wilma and Betty beam is it isn't blue like some other LED lights and even farther from HID color. I do like remote switches a lot better though.

    Pubcrawl, that is great everyone took an interest in your Lupine lights. Maybe Lupine will get a few new customers after you demo the light for the other riders. I have yet to come across anyone around here with lights that can put out the kind of light that the Lupine does. Mainly there are a few guys will halogen and a few HIDs.

  31. #31
    *R*O*W*Y*C*O*
    Reputation: PUBCRAWL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusHQ
    Pubcrawl, that is great everyone took an interest in your Lupine lights. Maybe Lupine will get a few new customers after you demo the light for the other riders. I have yet to come across anyone around here with lights that can put out the kind of light that the Lupine does. Mainly there are a few guys will halogen and a few HIDs.
    I lent... yes lent out my Lupines to 2 team mates and my wife lent hers to 1 other team mate. All were amazed at the light quality and performance the Lupines had. The loaning of these lights I think helped secure our 3rd place finish for the HAN race, as it put us up a full lap ahead of the 4th place team we were battling during the night laps.

    The only hold back for everyone with Lupines is the cost.
    The new Tesla is well within the price range of most people who are serious about night riding and 24hr racing.
    Last year this time a local shop here was selling Niterider HID's for a $900 CDN. and people were buying them...
    so I think a $460 Lupine would sell well... too bad no one in Canada actually sells them.

    I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
    Hunter S. Thompson

  32. #32
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    Quote Originally Posted by PUBCRAWL
    I lent... yes lent out my Lupines to 2 team mates and my wife lent hers to 1 other team mate. All were amazed at the light quality and performance the Lupines had. The loaning of these lights I think helped secure our 3rd place finish for the HAN race, as it put us up a full lap ahead of the 4th place team we were battling during the night laps.

    The only hold back for everyone with Lupines is the cost.
    The new Tesla is well within the price range of most people who are serious about night riding and 24hr racing.
    Last year this time a local shop here was selling Niterider HID's for a $900 CDN. and people were buying them...
    so I think a $460 Lupine would sell well... too bad no one in Canada actually sells them.

    We ship to Canada every day. So if we can be there for you, just let us know. That's why we're here. And, we ride!
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    1
    Hey Geoman,

    First up, thanks for your awesome service, i purchased my betty 7 from you last month, and they arrived in aussie land no problems. Thanks again.

    Now to business.. Have you any word when you will recieve the tesla light? As i have a mate who want to get it as it will (hopefully) be in his price range!

    I keep checking your website but its not there yet!

    Cheers

  34. #34
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    Quote Originally Posted by whstlr
    Hey Geoman,

    Now to business.. Have you any word when you will receive the Tesla light? As I have a mate who want to get it as it will (hopefully) be in his price range!

    I keep checking your website but its not there yet!

    Cheers
    No word on an exact date but it should likely be this month...

    Keep watching!

    Thanks for your kind words and support. We appreciate it.
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  35. #35
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    Quote Originally Posted by PUBCRAWL
    "Those are the brightest f@#king lights I've ever seen, what the hell are they?"
    Zactly! I get the same thing with my Betty. These new LUPINES are bright and programmable too so you can set your lights at various output settings... Nice!
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  36. #36
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    According to Gretna, the Tesla 4 should start shipping later this month.
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,331
    Check these out :-

    http://www.on-one-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Airbike.html

    Same P7 LED, and much cheaper, major bargain!!

  38. #38
    locked - time out
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    344
    You're comparing apples to oranges... And I think there was another thread on here about that light, and it hardly seemed like all that great. Not to mention your looking at euro pricing. Convert that to dollars and it's not that much cheaper then what the Tesla is.

    Not trying to bash your new light or anything. But you really can't compare these lights...

  39. #39
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd@gretnabikes
    You're comparing apples to oranges... And I think there was another thread on here about that light, and it hardly seemed like all that great. Not to mention your looking at euro pricing. Convert that to dollars and it's not that much cheaper then what the Tesla is.

    Not trying to bash your new light or anything. But you really can't compare these lights...
    Todd's right.
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  40. #40
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    Quote Originally Posted by PUBCRAWL
    Too bad no one in Canada actually sells them.
    I know someone that ships to Canada...

    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  41. #41
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,331
    So converting at current rate is $200, I heard the Tesla was 350Euro's or Ģ300 UK area, so it's under 1/2 the price.

    Having not tested either I don't know which 1 is best but both P7 and likely very similar output wise.

    Bet 2 of the cheap 1's still less than the Tesla would leave the Tesla for dead.

    Personally I like my P7 torch and unlimited run time with cheap replaceable 18650's 6 - 7 hour night rides are faily common for me!!

  42. #42
    mtbr remember
    Reputation: BikeSATORI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,356
    Just ordered a Wilma 7 to be my mail order bride! Ordered a harness for her too, just to try to keep her under control if I take her backpacking with me, hahaha...
    Thanks much, Jay, can't wait to get my hands on this bad devil.



    Oh, gotta ask... are most people with these Lupine set-ups running them on helmet, or bar mount??? I'm really hoping that helmet mount is balanced and taught (and if possible, maybe even come up with a way to mount it on my MX helmet for some night trail sessions on the ol' crf250r! watch out!)
    Schralp it Heavy.

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MaximusHQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    662
    Quote Originally Posted by BikeSATORI
    Just ordered a Wilma 7 to be my mail order bride! Ordered a harness for her too, just to try to keep her under control if I take her backpacking with me, hahaha...
    Thanks much, Jay, can't wait to get my hands on this bad devil.



    Oh, gotta ask... are most people with these Lupine set-ups running them on helmet, or bar mount??? I'm really hoping that helmet mount is balanced and taught (and if possible, maybe even come up with a way to mount it on my MX helmet for some night trail sessions on the ol' crf250r! watch out!)

    When using one light I would go for the helmet mount for the most part, but it's even better to use both a bar and helmet light so go buy another Wilma. The Wilma helmet mount works great for me it doesn't move unless I want it to.

  44. #44
    M070R-M0U7H FR3NCHI3
    Reputation: Acadian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,599
    Lupine is the only lights I'm willing to put my $$ down for.
    New Tesla and Wilma are SWEET!!

  45. #45
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    Quote Originally Posted by Acadian
    Lupine is the only lights I'm willing to put my $$ down for.
    New Tesla and Wilma are SWEET!!

    Def good stuff!
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  46. #46
    mtbr remember
    Reputation: BikeSATORI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,356
    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusHQ
    When using one light I would go for the helmet mount for the most part, but it's even better to use both a bar and helmet light so go buy another Wilma. The Wilma helmet mount works great for me it doesn't move unless I want it to.
    Thanks for the tip. I was going for helmet mount anyway, since with my riding style I like to incorporate a lot of manuals and wheelies, and I would like to continue that riding style at night, w/out lighting up the tree canopy and leaving me blind to the terrain! Was just a little skeptical at how well it will balance on the helmet.
    I don't think I'll be dropping coin for another Wilma 7 any time soon though, haha! I think at that point I'd have too many buddies trying to mooch the "extra light". If I find I really want another light for bar, I'll probably wait until next season, or just get a Stella or Dinotte 400 or something similar...



    Acadian, great to hear. Just from lurking around this site and what I remember reading of your posts, you seem to have great access to the goods of the cycling industry, so I'll take your word for it. Reassuring hearing things like that, it's a big investment to make, but like I said, if I can use it on my crf250r at night too, even better $ well spent.
    Schralp it Heavy.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MaximusHQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    662
    Quote Originally Posted by BikeSATORI
    I don't think I'll be dropping coin for another Wilma 7 any time soon though, haha! I think at that point I'd have too many buddies trying to mooch the "extra light". If I find I really want another light for bar, I'll probably wait until next season, or just get a Stella or Dinotte 400 or something similar...
    :

    After a season of using a Lupine light you won't want any other brand of light. Once you go Lupine, you never go back!

  48. #48
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,939
    Quote Originally Posted by PUBCRAWL
    mmm... never had this problem on group rides I've done using these lights.

    It's borderline obnoxious if you have one person with one of these behind you, and offensive if the person owning one of these has a helmet mount, hears you coming, and turns their head your way.

    Personally, I hate helmet mounts on night rides, their owners don't seem to "get it" that where ever they turn their head, they blind and wipe out the night vision of the unexpected recipient of their beam. It reminds me of police raids at night or getting pulled over and the officer deliberately blinds you and fries your eyesight so that you are seeing stars and nothing else, so that they can maintain control of the situation. It leaves me and my senses feeling violated. Handlebar mounted lights don't seem to have that problem.

    I'm thinking this is too much of a good thing, something with 400 to 600 lumens seems perfect for a mtn bike, anything more just seems like too much of a good thing, or in this case, overkill.

  49. #49
    mtbr remember
    Reputation: BikeSATORI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,356
    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    It's borderline obnoxious if you have one person with one of these behind you, and offensive if the person owning one of these has a helmet mount, hears you coming, and turns their head your way.

    Personally, I hate helmet mounts on night rides, their owners don't seem to "get it" that where ever they turn their head, they blind and wipe out the night vision of the unexpected recipient of their beam. It reminds me of police raids at night or getting pulled over and the officer deliberately blinds you and fries your eyesight so that you are seeing stars and nothing else, so that they can maintain control of the situation. It leaves me and my senses feeling violated. Handlebar mounted lights don't seem to have that problem.

    I'm thinking this is too much of a good thing, something with 400 to 600 lumens seems perfect for a mtn bike, anything more just seems like too much of a good thing, or in this case, overkill.

    Sounds to me like your problem really isn't with the light, nor with where it is mounted. More like a problem with the people you ride with.

    And the great part about these Lupine led lights is they are completely programmable, so you can set the "lumens" lower and also in return get a longer battery life, but still have the complete power with the click of a button for hairy descents or technical situations. You can't necessarily deem something as "overkill", everyone has a different riding style, rides different terrain, and heck, maybe even doesnt' eat as much carrot as you for their night vision, haha!
    Schralp it Heavy.

  50. #50
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    Quote Originally Posted by BikeSATORI
    Sounds to me like your problem really isn't with the light, nor with where it is mounted. More like a problem with the people you ride with.

    And the great part about these Lupine led lights is they are completely programmable, so you can set the "lumens" lower and also in return get a longer battery life, but still have the complete power with the click of a button for hairy descents or technical situations. You can't necessarily deem something as "overkill", everyone has a different riding style, rides different terrain, and heck, maybe even doesnt' eat as much carrot as you for their night vision, haha!

    I will often ride with my Betty 7 at 50% power (~750 lumens) but am thankful for the additional brightness on full power when I need it.

    I love the thing, FWIW. I've used many different lights over the years. LUPINE is the best I've used - ever. That's why we sell 'em.
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  51. #51
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,939
    A light as an investment? ROFLMAO...Somehow... someone got shortchanged on their education if a light is an investment. A light is a tool, never an investment for an end user /consumer.

  52. #52
    *R*O*W*Y*C*O*
    Reputation: PUBCRAWL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    It's borderline obnoxious if you have one person with one of these behind you, and offensive if the person owning one of these has a helmet mount, hears you coming, and turns their head your way.

    It's borderline obnoxious because I have bright lights and I use them?
    Are you speaking from personal experiences you've had with Lupine lights?

    Light etiquette is no different that trail etiquette... common sense and respect.

    A nice feature of Lupines LED's is the dimmer PCS switch that can cut them to 10% power (or any power setting you chose) with a flick of the switch.

    I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
    Hunter S. Thompson

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,904
    How about an investment in your safety. That sounds good!

  54. #54
    mtbr remember
    Reputation: BikeSATORI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,356
    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    A light as an investment? ROFLMAO...Somehow... someone got shortchanged on their education if a light is an investment. A light is a tool, never an investment for an end user /consumer.

    hey now, c'mon.
    Chill out randy boy, attacking someone's intelligence on an internet forum is not needed, whether indirect or not. Relax, we're here to talk about bikes and lights, not write a thesis. RALPH&MAOZEDONG
    Schralp it Heavy.

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    76
    People tend to think of investment as something that should, by definition, bring some sort of finantial return. Well, to me, even in the broader sense of the word a good bike light can be considered an investment. To me, it is an investment in the most precious of all things: TIME. Doesnīt have to be money. I did not buy a Wilma to profit from it, if not by allowing more time, safety and fun to ride my bike at night. My "investment" was in many ways highly "rewarded"!

  56. #56
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    Sometimes it's nice to know that you have the best there is...

    We all have our own opinions - thankfully. RandyBoy's comments are encouraged even though he may not say what some of us want to hear - or agree with. His perspective is genuine.

    Thank you all.
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  57. #57
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,331
    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    A light as an investment? ROFLMAO...Somehow... someone got shortchanged on their education if a light is an investment. A light is a tool, never an investment for an end user /consumer.
    You could say having a better light is a investment in reducing your odds of breaking your neck while night riding

    You could also possibly get it at a discount dump it on e-bay charge a stupid amount for postage and make a profit on it, in that case it could be considered a investment to.


  58. #58
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by Zipcom
    Here the "2008 Beam comparison - Preview" from the Lupine Forum.


    Nighmare 25W Halogen



    Tesla 12W LED



    Wilma 17W LED (NEW)



    Betty 23W LED



    Stefan at Lupine wrote:
    We will release the full beam comparison with our new website. The preview pictures show the full brightness only and keep in mind it is only a comparison and we do not claim these pictures show the real life impression ... allthough it's close to it

    Just a quick note on the marks.
    1. Toy dog: 7 m
    2. Tree mark: 14 m
    3. Tree mark: 26 m
    4. Tree mark: 48 m
    5. Bike: 65 m


    lupine is good light

    but its 700 lumens seem to illuminate more than my 1000 lumens

    because they do not publish data EXIF

    their photos

    so I can really compare their quality



  59. #59
    GeoMan
    Reputation: GEOMAN's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    1,706
    That Betty light output is something! As I mentioned before, I ride with one. It is awesome.

    Thanks for posting those pics!
    GeoMan
    We Ride!
    www.geomangear.com

  60. #60
    willy2004
    Guest
    What is the cost of replacing the battery, charger, and/or bulbs?

    How will these parts hold up over the years?

    Is this a disposable part like bar tape, cassette, chain or am I investing in a part of my bike that may last 10, 20 years or more?

  61. #61
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,331
    or am I investing in a part of my bike that may last 10, 20 years or more?

    10 or 20 years, are you serious, in 3years they'll be out of date, heavy and under powered compared to whats around and the batterys and charger will likely give up.

    It's definately not a investment, but it's Lupine and if you like the Bling factor then buy the Bling factor and stop justifying it as a long term investment.

    I'll stick to torches that a) do the same and b) let me just buy more cheap batterys for 10hour run times EASY

  62. #62
    willy2004
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy
    A light as an investment? ROFLMAO...Somehow... someone got shortchanged on their education if a light is an investment. A light is a tool, never an investment for an end user /consumer.
    I think of my bicycle as an investment........of course it is bicycle riding that is the real investment in my health and well being.......shelling out the $$$ is just part of the bicycle investment part, I guess have a nice day

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by ramaloji
    lupine is good light

    but its 700 lumens seem to illuminate more than my 1000 lumens

    because they do not publish data EXIF

    their photos

    so I can really compare their quality


    Lupine make their Photos with follow settings: f8, ISO800, 6s.

    We (www.mtb-news.de) make our own "standart", only for a better comparability. Look here: http://www.mtb-news.de/forum/showpos...&postcount=101 and there are many many Pics

    P.s.: Sorry for my bad English!!!

  64. #64
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,939
    Quote Originally Posted by GEOMAN
    Sometimes it's nice to know that you have the best there is...

    We all have our own opinions - thankfully. RandyBoy's comments are encouraged even though he may not say what some of us want to hear - or agree with. His perspective is genuine.

    Thank you all.
    The best there is? Come on... The Osram Ostar emitter will blow that out of the water for sheer horsepower. Someone just needs to put it together in a package for more $ than a Lupine, sell it to the stocking bike shops as The Next Big Thing, and shortly thereafter, the fools and their money will soon be separated. I'm pretty sure I've stated fact, not opinion, seeing I have no financial stake in this or anything to gain or affect my sales $ numbers.

  65. #65
    Double-metric mtb man
    Reputation: Psycho Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    4,483
    If they are in the $450-475 CDN range, I may just have found my next light
    As if four times wasn't enough-> Psycho Mike's 2013 Ride to Conquer Cancer Page

    Moran? Let your opinion be free -> F88me

  66. #66
    locked - time out
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    344
    One way to look at it as a long term investment.

    When new LED's are available, you will be able to buy an upgrade kit to bring your light up to speed. This has already happened with the 380 or 420 lumen Wilma, bringing them up to 750 lumens, with no affect on run time...

    If your light you bought 5 years ago has a battery that is at the end of it's life, you can buy any battery size in the Lupine family and it will work with the lamp you just upgraded.
    If any one reading this owns a Betty, you prob know your Charger One can even charge old lupine NIMH, or NiCad batteries.

    Having a system that can adapt to new trends or standards, is an investment to me.

    And for anyone who actually knows someone that works for Lupine, it's not about the bling, it's about German engineering.

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd@gretnabikes
    One way to look at it as a long term investment.

    When new LED's are available, you will be able to buy an upgrade kit to bring your light up to speed. This has already happened with the 380 or 420 lumen Wilma, bringing them up to 750 lumens, with no affect on run time...

    If your light you bought 5 years ago has a battery that is at the end of it's life, you can buy any battery size in the Lupine family and it will work with the lamp you just upgraded.
    If any one reading this owns a Betty, you prob know your Charger One can even charge old lupine NIMH, or NiCad batteries.

    Having a system that can adapt to new trends or standards, is an investment to me.

    And for anyone who actually knows someone that works for Lupine, it's not about the bling, it's about German engineering.
    Truthfully though there is nothing special just as people are pointing out. Its not an investment.

    The features you point out are not unique. For example Night Lightning offers retrofit options too for their old customers (the last two generations of the product even) and they are not unique in this respect - other brands also offer retrofit options too. They are more unique in that they don't even require you to use their batteries and they even sell their entire lamp products in DIY kits if you want to save money. Whether you buy the DIY or the assembled light you can use ANY battery from 12-20V with their lamps - SLA, NiMH, Lion, LiPO, LiFePO4, etc. They also offer programmable settings (in admin mode) just like Lupine but with more user configurable options. Not only are their lights programmable but you can even upgrade the software that controls the lights for whatever future upgrades might require software changes.

    Electronics have never been a strong point of German engineering. After all the heart of Lupine (and others) are LED from Asia

    The lighting market is very crowded with lots of great products available from companies in Australia, UK, New Zealand, US, Korea, and others. Lupine will have to try harder to really differentiate themselves these days as they are no longer unique in the market.
    Last edited by syadasti; 10-06-2008 at 01:29 PM.

  68. #68
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    7,939
    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    Truthfully though there is nothing special just as people are pointing out. Its not an investment.

    The features you point out are not unique. For example Night Lightning offers retrofit options too for their old customers (the last two generations of the product even) and they are not unique in this respect - other brands also offer retrofit options too. They are more unique in that they don't even require you to use their batteries and they even sell their entire lamp products in DIY kits if you want to save money. Whether you buy the DIY or the assembled light you can use ANY battery from 12-20V with their lamps - SLA, NiMH, Lion, LiPO, LiFePO4, etc. They also offer programmable settings (in admin mode) just like Lupine but with more user configurable options. Not only are their lights programmable but you can even upgrade the software that controls the lights for whatever future upgrades might require software changes.

    Electronics have never been a strong point of German engineering. After all the heart of Lupine (and others) are LED from Asia

    The lighting market is very crowded with lots of great products available from companies in Australia, UK, New Zealand, US, Korea, and others. Lupine will have to try harder to really differentiate themselves these days as they are no longer unique in the market.

    Ya took the words right out of my mouth. Anyone that owns a german car and works on them knows that the engineering sucks, they seem to get intense pleasure shoehorning an engine into a shoebox, then wonder why the engine has overheating problems with the motor oil, then they create some outrageous motor oil requirement just for their engines, that they have to test, approve and issue you a license that the oil producer has to pay for specifing that the motor oil is up to their standard and won't create warranty denied issues. That's piss poor engineering if you ask me.

    Plus working on the engine once installed requires a fortune in specialized tools to do something as basic as changing a timing belt.

    You can only Market bullsh*t for so long before people realize you are selling overpriced Bovine based fertilizer high in Methane and nitrogen.

  69. #69
    locked - time out
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    344
    Quote Originally Posted by RandyBoy [B
    You can only Market bullsh*t for so long before people realize you are selling overpriced Bovine based fertilizer high in Methane and nitrogen[/B].
    I'm Marketing Bullsh!t...???

  70. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    76
    I see a lot of simplistic generalization here. Yeah, like all german engineering is that bad. Taking from your own principle that "you can only market ******** for so long before people realize etc", donīt you think the Audis, BMWs, Porshes and BMWs would have such a high reputation everywhere being as crappy as youīre painting? Oh, of course... I forgot Iīm talking to highly enlightened consumers, my apologies.

    I donīt drive a X5 or a A6 but I ride a Wilma 6 and it rocks. It takes 10 seconds to put on the bike, it stays there even under lots of rattling, it works flawlessly every time even under heavy rain and mud... if thatīs not good engineering, I donīt know what it is. Of course there are as-good-as or maybe even better options. Of course one can "engineer" a super DIY, but I canīt see how that detract from german engineering, electroneering or whatever.

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MaximusHQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    662
    Well this thread has gone to crap. I thought we were discussing the Tesla light not bashing Lupine and German engineering? Lupine makes excellent lights with great features. Saying that they are marketing ******** is a moronic statement. Have you ever even used one of their lights to make such statements. If their lights didn't deliver the goods then I could see why you would be *****ing about them, but the fact is they do deliver. And why the heck are you talking about German cars, we are talking about a bike light here?

    Don't worry Todd we know you aren't marketing bullsh!t lol.

  72. #72
    BBW
    BBW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BBW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,183
    People that talks BS about lupine has never had one in their hands. Craftmanship is second to none absolutely beautiful. On the other hand, the heat dissipation of my Wilma is better than "other" excellent lights. That's engineering

  73. #73
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,904
    I went through several lights and ended up with the Lupines. Everyone has personal preferences but when it comes to construction quality, sturdiness, attention to detail , and features, nothing came close. There still isn't anything I'll trade my Wilma and Betty for...not this year anyway. Nightlightning, Niteflux, and HID Tech are nice but still not close enough. Nite Rider is clunky and bottom-of-the-pile. L&M's Seca- jury is still out though their ARC was superb for a HID. Jet Lites- no idea what their LED is doing though I still dig their halogens (yeah, I used the 'H" word) even today.

    As a complete package and in overall construction, it is still hard to beat the Lupines- and I have the "old" versions. I'll start geeking out on lights again this year and am looking forward to it. Autumn is here and I have a new bike to introduce to nightriding.

  74. #74
    Double-metric mtb man
    Reputation: Psycho Mike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    4,483
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Jet Lites- no idea what their LED is doing though I still dig their halogens (yeah, I used the 'H" word) even today.
    Hehehe...Flyer, don't sweat the H-word I'm still running a pair of halogens to meet my needs, though the Tesla has caught my attention: same output as both my halogens with longer run time. If it weren't for the fact I'd be concerned about the added weight of the halogen's batteries, I'd go for a Tesla on the helmet and put both halogens on the bars.

    Maybe next spring I'll make the jump to LED tech
    As if four times wasn't enough-> Psycho Mike's 2013 Ride to Conquer Cancer Page

    Moran? Let your opinion be free -> F88me

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,904
    If I didn't have the Lupines, I'd still use the Jet Halogens. There is something about that beam color that brings back memories of dark nights in strange lands with the only solace of light being the huge steel flashlights that lit up the night. Ah, the good old days of kerosene lamps and Hyena cackles in the middle of the night....

    I seem to have strayed of topic though...gotta find another forum for all that

  76. #76
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    726
    Owners who have made such a big investment are often biased will say such things. I have an aversion to such thinking and blind brand loyalty and like to try all the brands myself.

    I'm not saying they aren't still a great product but they just have to try harder to differentiate themselves today. I've owned and seen many lights and the premium just isn't justified anymore. Unless there is a glaring flaw like bad smart charger/electronics or fragile/flawed lamp the small differences in the products don't justify $150-200 premium especially when the cheaper products can throw more light, use newer battery technology with greater runtime, or use newer generation LEDs sooner. They were great in the past but the marketplace is much more competitive these days and its simply not pulling its weight like it use to.

    P.S. For fair disclosure I sold off my lights as night riding illegal where I currently live. I don't own any of them anymore. I've been night riding the trails for over ten years and have seen everything from halogen to HID to LED from every make and brand - DIY to primo setups. Even the guys with the crazy homemade setups with huge SLA are having fun. Spending the big for the [usually small incremental] difference isn't what is all about and it doesn't making things as great as owners like to tell themselves/claim. Once you get to a certain point you get very severe diminishing returns despite the claims of marketing engineers.

    The same goes for bikes themselves. People make outrageous claims like that about bike brands and perceived superiority often based on the past and/or price premiums alone. After owning 30 MTBs from 16 different brands over the past 20 years, I know its simply not true. The brands are dynamic and past products or reputation don't always reflect the current ones. Acadian also seems to realize it as he loves bikes from brands both mainstream and boutique.
    Last edited by syadasti; 10-07-2008 at 09:12 PM.

  77. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,904
    If something is signicantly better, I'll get it. I don't care about the money sunk into the Lupines or any light and I don't have to protect any investment. If Niteflux or someone comes up with a really sweet light, I'm all ears though I finally feel no need for more light or a better light color.

    The fun you have comes from inside and knowing that is 90% of the game. We don't want to have something to keep up with others.

    However, I like really nice stuff as well so I try it all and end up (or want to end up) with Lupine, Knolly, Turner, Ventana, Moots, Ibis, etc. instead of other bikes/lights I have tried. I have no wife/kids so I can afford to do this....for now. Let me enjoy this without being a buzzkill.

  78. #78
    mtbr remember
    Reputation: BikeSATORI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,356
    First of all... I apologize to the posters on this thread for my use of the term "investment" out of context in one of my above posts. That was my mistake with improper use of vocabulary.
    I should have just simply said, "It's a heavy chunk of coin for me to drop on these lights", in place of "big investement"....
    And to my amazement, my simple mistake while quickly typing a response on an internet forum seems to have sparked quite a heated debate here, and not even necessarily direclty related to this thread. A debate that has apparantly been reduced to insult, and as a result, brought the vibe of this thread to a feeling of hostility.
    For clarification, I was just explaining that I am not used to spending much money (like over $40) on lights, but this time, I have the money available and decided to purchase what I see as an excellent light. I am simply hoping to get a light that can serve me well in a variety of uses (cycling, enduro motorcycling, backpacking, camping, climbing, etc.), hold up to abuse, and since I'm not a huge light enthusiast, I hope it will last me a decent while into the future as it is since I won't be upgrading every season.


    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    Owners who have made such a big investment are often biased will say such things. I have an aversion to such thinking and blind brand loyalty and like to try all the brands myself.

    I'm not saying they aren't still a great product but they just have to try harder to differentiate themselves today. I've owned and seen many lights and the premium just isn't justified anymore. Unless there is a glaring flaw like bad smart charger/electronics or fragile/flawed lamp the small differences in the products don't justify $150-200 premium especially when the cheaper products can throw more light, use newer battery technology with greater runtime, or use newer generation LEDs sooner. They were great in the past but the marketplace is much more competitive these days and its simply not pulling its weight like it use to.

    P.S. For fair disclosure I sold off my lights as night riding illegal where I currently live. I don't own any of them anymore. I've been night riding the trails for over ten years and have seen everything from halogen to HID to LED from every make and brand - DIY to primo setups. Even the guys with the crazy homemade setups with huge SLA are having fun. Spending the big for the [usually small incremental] difference isn't what is all about and it doesn't making things as great as owners like to tell themselves/claim. Once you get to a certain point you get very severe diminishing returns despite the claims of marketing engineers.

    The same goes for bikes themselves. People make outrageous claims like that about bike brands and perceived superiority often based on the past and/or price premiums alone. After owning 30 MTBs from 16 different brands over the past 20 years, I know its simply not true. The brands are dynamic and past products or reputation don't always reflect the current ones. Acadian also seems to realize it as he loves bikes from brands both mainstream and boutique.

    My decision was not an overly biased one, not blinded by marketting or anything like that. It was simply based on some minor research and comparison (I'm sure some of you are thinking maybe I should have researched more, but I'd rather spend my time with friends and bike, instead of reading books on emitters and DIY and such!). And not at all saying I feel my "research" led me astray when I found Lupine either.
    I'm hardly a brand name biased type of person, nor overboard with logo based loyalty. And this applies to most all things in my life. I'm not one to even base most of my decision on where the product is from/designed/manufactured, so being German had nothing to do with my decision. Not like if it was Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese, or Canadian would have had anything to do with it either.

    Your argument that Lupine should do more to stick out from the crowd is an interesting point of view, but not the way I see it at all.

    I'm not sure what kind of light or bike you use currently, but I'm sure you have your own reasons for purchasing them. Which, I or anybody else could just as easily label you as being "brand loyal", and "blind", for owning or purchasing.
    I've owned/purchased 4 bikes to add to my stable this season alone, all of different brand, type, design, manufacture, etc. Owned too many to count over the years, well in excess of 50 (not even including bmx!), so that doesn't even apply to me either. I've still got well over a dozen of my personal bikes out in the shop right now.
    I know exactly where you're coming from though, there is no denying there are the "gucci" riders out there, or the Turner Homers or whatever... but it is completely out of place to assume all other cyclists other than yourself are that way in mindset.
    Please don't let this thread come down to a Ford vs. Chevy, Import vs. Local, My dad can beat up your dad kind of argument.







    You know, I really didn't have to explain myself like that, but seriously, trolling threads is a great way to get some different points of view and create discussion, but I saw this one getting way out of hand with issues coming up that were way off base. ...and all apparantly in result to my post using the term "investment".





    p.s. that's completely too bad that night riding has been outlawed where you live. Can truly make me appreciate where I live out under the stars where nobody's watching out in these woods!
    Schralp it Heavy.

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MaximusHQ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    662
    Let me ask you syadasti, since you don't trust anything who owns a Lupine light has to say. Have you used and tested out a Lupine Betty or Wilma light and what did you like and dislike about them? I've been riding trails at night for more than ten years too using a wide variety of lights as well and have not seen anything that matches Lupine quality and attention to detail, and light output.

    Lupine put out some high powered LED lights before most of the other companies had a clue and then had to play catchup. It's interesting how Nightlighting seems to have a lot of similar features that Lupine has, it's like they basically copied a lot of Lupines features.

    When I bought my Lupines (Betty and Wilma) almost a year ago there wasn't another LED light on the market that could compare with their output and features. Now looking around at current LED light offerings it seems others have closed the gap, but still seem behind. The price wasn't really a big deal I was more concerned with getting the best and brightest LED bike lights going and it was a no brainer going with Lupine. Now after many many night rides with the lights including snow, rain, and even road salt they still function perfectly and I am still amazed at the light output these two lights put out.

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusHQ
    Let me ask you syadasti, since you don't trust anything who owns a Lupine light has to say. Have you used and tested out a Lupine Betty or Wilma light and what did you like and dislike about them? I've been riding trails at night for more than ten years too using a wide variety of lights as well and have not seen anything that matches Lupine quality and attention to detail, and light output.

    Lupine put out some high powered LED lights before most of the other companies had a clue and then had to play catchup. It's interesting how Nightlighting seems to have a lot of similar features that Lupine has, it's like they basically copied a lot of Lupines features.

    When I bought my Lupines (Betty and Wilma) almost a year ago there wasn't another LED light on the market that could compare with their output and features. Now looking around at current LED light offerings it seems others have closed the gap, but still seem behind. The price wasn't really a big deal I was more concerned with getting the best and brightest LED bike lights going and it was a no brainer going with Lupine. Now after many many night rides with the lights including snow, rain, and even road salt they still function perfectly and I am still amazed at the light output these two lights put out.
    I am not saying at one point Lupine wasn't ahead with things like class leading HID systems or one the first quad optic LED designs. Their products are very high quality but that doesn't mean there aren't others out there doing the same. The only aspect they are lagging in right now is cost probably as result of the mark versus the dollar.

    Nightlightning is not a new company that copied Lupine. They've been around a long time and have been doing LEDs for retail lighting even before they made outdoor lighting products. They've been making adventure halogen systems for ages and sponsoring teams for over 7 years. They sold their first 9-watt tri-optic lamp with three Luxeon LED back in July 2003. Lupine did not show their Luxeon 3-watt LED equipped Wilma until Eurobike in 2005 (which was before it was on sale) so they were a few years behind, not ahead.

    Nightlightning is still ahead of Lupine as far as LED generations. Their last generation product uses the same LEDs as Lupine's current product (P4 Seoul) and now they've been shipping with 40% brighter Cree R2 since May.

    Flyer noted he like Jet Lights:

    Quote Originally Posted by flyer
    If I didn't have the Lupines, I'd still use the Jet Halogens. There is something about that beam color that brings back memories of dark nights in strange lands with the only solace of light being the huge steel flashlights that lit up the night.
    This user too agreed on Jetlight performance/not liking HID and when they bought the Nightlighting they agreed the Cree R2 version blows it away:

    Quote Originally Posted by rotobob
    Anyway, I have been using a Jetlites Phantom (helmet mount) for two years using a 14.8v Li-ion battery, which I have always preferred to any other light I have seen in person so far, halogen or HID. I haven't really ever run across anyone with a decent LED to compare with. The Jet light is just as nice as you can get with a halogen IMO.

    As far as light output, the iBlasst is not only whiter light, but it is decently brighter as well. I always thought the Jet was pretty much the whitest of the halogens, but it looks pretty yellow compared to the iBlaast2. Jet claims 750 lumens from the 25W light and iBlaast2 claims 885 lumens if these LED's are the R2 Cree's. But, maybe they are something more potent, as they waid it was going to be a 1000 lumen light. Either way, it's a noticable difference how much brighter the iBlaast2 is than the Jet Phantom.
    And yes I've used both brands of lights and after seeing them I gave my money to Nighlightning. The last two lights I used before moving were from nightlighting - the Comet DCM overdrive 35 watt IRC Lion and I also demoed the Endurenz (wasn't bright enough for me after using the Comet so I didn't buy it).

    Quote Originally Posted by "flyer
    If Niteflux or someone comes up with a really sweet light, I'm all ears though I finally feel no need for more light or a better light color.
    I've also seen the first revision of the Nightflux Max and it was brighter than the Wilma I've seen on the trail. They pulled it off with only three vs. four LED which is pretty impressive. You don't have to take my word or guesstimate - MTBR measured it 12% brighter:

    http://reviews.mtbr.com/blog/niteflux-photon-max/

    In this shootout, we’ve seen outstanding lights from Dinotte, Exposure and Niterider. They’re all around $400 and our measured Lux readings for them are 33, 30 and 33 Lux respectively. So we expected this $400 Niteflux to be in that range.

    We measured a 50! We measured again… 50 Lux. We checked the other lights, and it same as the last measurements. Man, is it that dark in Australia?

    The light is impressive. It has a fairly tight pattern and it throws light far, very far. As you can see in the beam pattern shots, the light meter measurements are no fluke. This light is definitely bright and even upstages the pricier Lupine Wilma 6 at 44 Lux.

    On the downside, the beam pattern is a bit narrow and should be complemented by another light for better peripheral or side to side vision.
    Nighflux didn't rest on their laurels with this product though, they updated the optics:

    last year's photon max was generally thought to be a bit too bright and narrow. Any stock that comes from our online store has wider optics now.

    Tri-optics configuration
    8 degree X 1
    19 degree X 2
    To continue more on topic it seems the Korean SSCP7 LED light competition is filling fast with Korea itself jumping in to the ring. Already Airbike, LITEmania, and Hanlite each have two versions of SSCP7 lights themselves.

    So as I said its a crowded competitive marketplace and heating up even faster now. Lupine might have been ahead with their HID or quad LED vs. tri luxeon lamp but the market evolves fast. More effort on the part of any company is needed to truly shine. Its a great time to be a consumer.
    Last edited by syadasti; 10-08-2008 at 03:14 AM.

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    398
    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    Nighflux didn't rest on their laurels with this product though, they updated the optics:
    Where's this info from? Any beamshots? No info about this on the Niteflux website...

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok
    Where's this info from? Any beamshots? No info about this on the Niteflux website...
    I emailed them and asked if they made any changes since that review.

  83. #83
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    76
    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    Owners who have made such a big investment are often biased will say such things. I have an aversion to such thinking and blind brand loyalty and like to try all the brands myself.

    ....
    Thatīs a flawed argument to say the least. First, "big investment" or "small investment" is relative to the depth of oneīs pocket, not to the price of the good. What may be considered a big investment for one may be change for other. Second, youīre assuming too many things about others when you say "such thinking and blind brand loyalty". Hardcore night riders are hardly a blind bunch, and may opt for the best after many yrs of trying out everything, just like you said you would do to form your own opinion.

    Iīm not saying one should take otherīs opinions to the word, but thereīs a considerable source of knowledge from some people with real world experience and yrs or trial that should not be disregarded or viewed as brand loyalty or biased opinion.

  84. #84
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex SP
    Iīm not saying one should take otherīs opinions to the word, but thereīs a considerable source of knowledge from some people with real world experience and yrs or trial that should not be disregarded or viewed as brand loyalty or biased opinion.
    You aren't following the thread. You need a better light-I mean link-to see

    If it cost 30-40% more than that of devices that perform similarly or better that sure its a significant difference in investment. Especially when the LED that make up the light are often from the same exact brand or are inferior and/or older generation LEDs.

    Maybe its not loyalty but just lack of effort on their part then not that being lazy is any better. I clearly pointed out how brands were performing better both in the real world and in tests. Its actually lack of knowledge as they just assumed it was better where as I mentioned I've used or ridden with people with a variety of brands.

  85. #85
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    76
    Well, before we go on with this Iīd like to make clear that, although I own a Lupine I also have owned and still own a few of other bike lights, and I have been riding and racing off-road in the dark seriously for the last 15 yrs or so. What I mean is, I have no ties to Lupine nor any other bike light brand and Iīm not here to stand for Lupine (like they need it), or even my own consumer choices (like I need it). I pay for my stuff, and if that doesnīt mean unbiased opinion, at least it means my opinion is not commercially driven.

    Iīve got just a couple of points to make about this, and sorry if I donīt follow the thread as youīd expect ;-)

    The thing with Lupine is not just about LEDs, 3 or 4 or 5 whatever. Itīs the whole construction, and itīs not enough to ride behind someone with a Betty or a Wilma to realize or have a measurement of comparison. The same holds true to every other light, I must add. You got to try it, and try it hard, not just a walk in the yard. It was the same in the HID era with the Edison. Their HID wasnīt highly supperior per se but the whole package - batteries, connectors, chargers, built, size, etc. - is top notch. They clearly have a supperior attention for detail. You may not care for this, but it sets a higher standard and some are looking exactly for this, much in the same way some are looking for the exclusivity and status of a good DIY project.

    Iīd also credit Lupineīs reputation to a simple thing that seems lacking from many others: consistency. About their releases, updates and products in general. Unlike many of their competitors, they donīt seem to try too hard to create hype about their stuff. You get to know about a 920 lumen upgrade for the Wilma, a month later you can get it on your 830 one, and working flawlessly. They get a lot of good word-of-mouth propaganda, and IMHO it stems from this consistency rather than from lumen output or design. I see others comparing their products to Lupineīs, trying to beat them all the time, and to me that speaks loud to any consumer looking for "the best" in a given market. Sure, others may be better informed or have different criteria, but so what.

    I also see a tsunami of false releases and unfilled claims from some guys out there about their "soon to be released" marvels. Mega LEDs with 2 zillion lumens enough to lit the moon, ultra-wide lenses reaching the horizon, and ever longer running batteries. Perhaps Lupineīs good reputation is well deserved. You see a pic in the forum and you go "wow". Then you see one in action and you go "wow". You read the specs you go "wow". You use one, you get that same "wow". Then you buy one, and you go "wow" for yrs, every time you put it on your bike: under rain, in races and rides, in the mud, on the road. Thatīs consistency. Itīs the same with L&M, and they get the same reputation as a reward for their consistency too.

    But thatīs just IMHO.

  86. #86
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex SP
    Well, before we go on with this Iīd like to make clear that, although I own a Lupine I also have owned and still own a few of other bike lights, and I have been riding and racing off-road in the dark seriously for the last 15 yrs or so. What I mean is, I have no ties to Lupine nor any other bike light brand and Iīm not here to stand for Lupine (like they need it), or even my own consumer choices (like I need it). I pay for my stuff, and if that doesnīt mean unbiased opinion, at least it means my opinion is not commercially driven.

    Iīve got just a couple of points to make about this, and sorry if I donīt follow the thread as youīd expect ;-)
    The three brands I've mentioned directly are smaller and advertise even less than Lupine. Nightlightning has been making high watt high quality LED setups for longer than Lupine as I pointed out and are well proven in NZ which has a challenging wet climate (I lived there for half a year in the fall/winter). Their last generation product used the same P4 LEDs in the current Lupine and they've moved on to more efficient Cree R2 back in May and offer upgrades for any customers with the older generations. There are brands innovating in their own ways as I've pointed out above.

    Sure its enough to have friends you ride with all the time. As I said I've been riding mountain bikes for twenty years and night riding for ten - that isn't the back yard Friends don't usually hide the fact whether or not they have issues with their gear. The only brand I've often seen big problems with is Nightrider which I never mentioned as comparable. Also I never said they had problems with their Lupine either I am saying that other brands do just as well and sometimes better even at significant lower prices. They no longer have clear stand out features in a crowded market.

  87. #87
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    76
    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    ... I am saying that other brands do just as well and sometimes better even at significant lower prices.
    Maybe not with the same overall consistency as Lupine. Thatīs exactly my point. Or maybe theyīre falling short in advertising, who knows. Itīs not enough to have a top product, you must let others know about it and you must make it accessible, and I donīt mean that just in regards to price but also commercialy. DIYs may be cheaper and better than Lupine too, and many are! But then you have to put it together and thatīs not for everyone (and therein lies the appeal for many DIYers Iīm sure ).

    Iīm defending that Lupine has a good word-of-mouth reputation among hardcore users, and that can only come from quality and consistency, that delicate link between marketing-product-offer, long run policies. Sure itīs not from bad engineering or high pricing, you canīt fool everyone for too long like that.

    They may not be as big and powerful as Niterider, or as innovative and upfront as Nightlightning, or inexpensive and solid as L&M, or anything you may care to think of as the highlight of a single company, be it consumer care or marketing or whatever. But they score high in all those areas and maybe thatīs their strenght and appeal. Niterider goes after the consumer, whereas Lupine and many other likewise companies are sought after. Consistency.

    When I decided to shop for a new lightset, being out of the bike light market for a few years, I was drawn to a few brands. Nightlightning was one of them, but it was a hassle to get together. Even if not real, or not based on facts, I foresaw some troubles from ordering it or perhaps needing warranty or service.

    After a lot of research and inquiring, Lupine came out offering everything I was looking for. From being easy (though not cheap I admit) to find and get, from the nice casing to the overall performance, from the "expert" reviews to the general opinions found in forums, it had it all. And after almost 1 yr of heavy use, it proved right. Consistency. Some look for price, but some donīt.


  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex SP
    Maybe not with the same overall consistency as Lupine. Thatīs exactly my point. Or maybe theyīre falling short in advertising, who knows. Itīs not enough to have a top product, you must let others know about it and you must make it accessible, and I donīt mean that just in regards to price but also commercialy. DIYs may be cheaper and better than Lupine too, and many are! But then you have to put it together and thatīs not for everyone (and therein lies the appeal for many DIYers Iīm sure
    Nobody gains anything by having the best advertising so thats a moot point (besides the fact you just pointed out that hype is bad). Nightlighting has been around for a long time and is consistent so I fail to see how you support that. Commercially they are move FASTER. They updated from P4 to Cree R2 with delivery to customers back in May - Lupine is still using P4s. I haven't mentioned any DIY lights. Nightlightning offers a DIY option but most people buy assembled lights - that means they offer even more options for the consumer, not less. They have great support the only negative is if you don't live in NZ you'll have to wait a day or two more for airmail because they are far away.

    Lupine fanboys seem as bad as homers (I own one but I ain't no homer)

  89. #89
    mtbr remember
    Reputation: BikeSATORI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,356
    Quote Originally Posted by syadasti
    NightLightning fanboys seem as bad as homers (I own one but I ain't no homer)
    I agree (I own a Turner as well, but I'm sure most Homers probably don't even know what a Rail is).
    All a matter of perspective, just fill in the blank. Just remind yourself what thread you're in.





    That new iBlaast II does look pretty sweet. But, still pretty pricey when you add everything up.
    Didn't realize they were based out of ChristChurch.
    (complete sideline) Had a buddy who lived down in Wellington for about a year in '07/08. He quit his job and ended up going to Christchurch and buying a cheap old van and touring the south island for a couple of months or so.... Ended up breaking his leg on a root laden tranny drop and had to have emergency surgery. The NZ government ended up paying him a weekly check since he could not work, and he wasn't even a citizen. I find that incredibly amazing...
    I'll find my way there in the very near future, always high on my list.
    Schralp it Heavy.

  90. #90
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by BikeSATORI
    I agree (I own a Turner as well, but I'm sure most Homers probably don't even know what a Rail is).
    All a matter of perspective, just fill in the blank. Just remind yourself what thread you're in.
    I remember seeing the Turner Burner hanging on the shop back in the early to mid nineties (94ish?) and my friend got one and loved it. I have another friend years later who had a Rail but sold it before he moved out the CO. I currently have an 05 Enduro Pro (which I got in NZ), 07 RFX, and 08 BLT2. I'll sell off one of them in the Spring as three is too much, heh. Perhaps I'll get a 2010 DWL Turner (don't like first years for completely redesigns of anything). I had the first DWL bike on the market - the 2002.5 Ironhorse Hollowpoint.

    That new iBlaast II does look pretty sweet. But, still pretty pricey when you add everything up.
    A big part of the cost is the battery because they have to import it from Canada. They don't require you to use their batteries as noted in the thread I linked. You can buy a decent Lion setup from batteryspace for $126 as they note in the iBlaast2 thread I linked above or you can find or make another if you like 12-20V and it will work.

    Didn't realize they were based out of ChristChurch.
    (complete sideline) Had a buddy who lived down in Wellington for about a year in '07/08. He quit his job and ended up going to Christchurch and buying a cheap old van and touring the south island for a couple of months or so.... Ended up breaking his leg on a root laden tranny drop and had to have emergency surgery. The NZ government ended up paying him a weekly check since he could not work, and he wasn't even a citizen. I find that incredibly amazing...
    I'll find my way there in the very near future, always high on my list.
    I lived in Wellington in 2005 (spring/summer here but fall/winter there). If it was closer I'd probably still be living there, its an awesome country with friendly people and a number of great places to enjoy the outdoors.

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    76
    Fanboys... once again youīre crediting it to blind brand loyalty, like me or anyone else has to justify dropping $800 on a bike light. Not the case here, but I admit the more I talk the more it seems exactly like that. Anyhoo...

    I mentioned DIYs to argument that "sometimes better even at significant lower prices" doesnīt mean everything, and certainly doesnīt prove that Lupines are bad engineering or super expensive like some try to.

    And I never said that word-of-mouth = hype, youīre the one implying that. I like Lupine for their quality only. Iīm sure many others offer that quality for less. But not a lot less since thereīs no free meal - they all share similar inners and they all want to profit from their products. I also like L&M, after trying many HIDs I finally got what I was looking for from their ARC light.

    To me, having to import batteries from Canada or anywhere, or even having to go out and shop for one around here to complement a headlight, no matter how good it may be, is a hassle. Itīs part-DIY. If you get the "whole package" deal, you end up with similar prices. No free meal here too.

    To many, the option of picking any other battery for their lights is a plus, but not to me. I did my fair share or DIY in the good old days, now I want convenience. Lupine is not the only one offering it, and it sure as hell ainīt offering it for the best price around. It may not even be offering the latest or greatest. But once again, it offers consistency.

    I donīt want to turn this thread into a flame and I guess we all have made our points clear. I respect your arguments and POVs, thanks for showing me a different way to see things.

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex SP
    Fanboys... once again youīre crediting it to blind brand loyalty, like me or anyone else has to justify dropping $800 on a bike light. Not the case here, but I admit the more I talk the more it seems exactly like that. Anyhoo...

    I mentioned DIYs to argument that "sometimes better even at significant lower prices" doesnīt mean everything, and certainly doesnīt prove that Lupines are bad engineering or super expensive like some try to.

    And I never said that word-of-mouth = hype, youīre the one implying that. I like Lupine for their quality only. Iīm sure many others offer that quality for less. But not a lot less since thereīs no free meal - they all share similar inners and they all want to profit from their products. I also like L&M, after trying many HIDs I finally got what I was looking for from their ARC light.

    To me, having to import batteries from Canada or anywhere, or even having to go out and shop for one around here to complement a headlight, no matter how good it may be, is a hassle. Itīs part-DIY. If you get the "whole package" deal, you end up with similar prices. No free meal here too.

    To many, the option of picking any other battery for their lights is a plus, but not to me. I did my fair share or DIY in the good old days, now I want convenience. Lupine is not the only one offering it, and it sure as hell ainīt offering it for the best price around. It may not even be offering the latest or greatest. But once again, it offers consistency.

    I donīt want to turn this thread into a flame and I guess we all have made our points clear. I respect your arguments and POVs, thanks for showing me a different way to see things.
    I've never claimed Lupine are poor quality, in fact I said the opposite several times. The primary drawback I've stressed is that they are now overpriced with a much more competitive marketplace. I poked fun at the comment about German engineering because they are infamous for screwy electronics in other products and the fact the LEDs themselves are made in Korea, not Germany.

    Nightlightning sells complete lighting systems and does not require any special effort. No DIY required. No import duty for the buyer. Nothing different than buying anything else on the Internet only it cost $15 to ship rather than $7 since its coming airmail from NZ which takes about 4 days - about the same as ground shipping in the US from some places. These complete systems still sell for about $100 cheaper than the equivalent Lupine but the great thing is the flexibility - you have choice on everything - optics, battery source/type/size, built or DYI, etc to suit the widest range of needs possible.

    As I mentioned the other comparable competitors range from 30-40% cheaper which is clearly significantly less.

    Nightlightning is just as consistent as Lupine. They've had the same options for their lights from halogen to LED and they've been around for about a decade so I don't really see how you can claim one company is more consistent. There is no lapse of quality in either.

    My comment about Canadian cells has to do with the high quality lion cells they use in the batteries they sell. They aren't cheap/questionable random cells from asia like the rest of the market and it pushes the pricing of their Lion options up. Really though Lion systems from batteryspace are still more than adequate. The only battery system I had problems with was a NiMH system from nightrider with a bum smartcharge system.

    You said they weren't competitive on advertising, not me. Being the best advertiser means nothing:

    Or maybe theyīre falling short in advertising, who knows.

  93. #93
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Johnnydrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    472

    Canadian batteries???

    There have been a few mentions of those good canadian batteries here... Now, as a Canadian myself, is there a way to get hold (locally) of these "great" batteries? Who sells them? What brand are they?

    Thanks for the info!

    Johnnydrz

  94. #94
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnydrz
    There have been a few mentions of those good canadian batteries here... Now, as a Canadian myself, is there a way to get hold (locally) of these "great" batteries? Who sells them? What brand are they?

    Thanks for the info!

    Johnnydrz
    You'd have to email them (I don't own my anymore) but honestly I doubt there is significant difference in the performance they all use similar chemistry with similar use life cycle but definitely a higher cost like products made in North America and the EU. As long as your battery has a proper protection circuit and a good smart charger you should be good. Now if we were talking one of the new battery chemistry like LiFePO4 or maybe even the new portable fuel cells then I'd be interested. Maybe a much smaller version of something like this:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27055776/

  95. #95
    locked - time out
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    344
    Soooo, if I have info to let people know about new Lupine products, am I going to get flamed?

  96. #96
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Johnnydrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    472

    Sarcasm ???

    ehhhh..... big news ????

    Johnnydrz

  97. #97
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Johnnydrz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    472
    This is taking toooooo looooong ..................

  98. #98
    *R*O*W*Y*C*O*
    Reputation: PUBCRAWL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd@gretnabikes
    Soooo, if I have info to let people know about new Lupine products, am I going to get flamed?
    I know I'd be very interested in hearing (reading) about any Lupine updates.

    I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
    Hunter S. Thompson

  99. #99
    mtbr remember
    Reputation: BikeSATORI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,356
    Quote Originally Posted by PUBCRAWL
    I know I'd be very interested in hearing (reading) about any Lupine updates.
    Agreed. That's why this thread was created in the first place.
    Schralp it Heavy.

  100. #100
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,470
    Quote Originally Posted by BikeSATORI
    Agreed. That's why this thread was created in the first place.
    I agree...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •