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  1. #1
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    Gretna Has The New Betty/Wilma.

    For those interested, Gretna Bikes has the new 2600 lumen Betty/1500 lumen Wilma in stock. I originally was thinking of upgrading only the Betty as i wanted to keep the narrow beam pattern of my Wilma, but i see there are two 1500 lumen options for the Wilma 26/16 degree. So the 2600 lumen 26degree for my Betty, and i can keep a narrow 1500 lumen beam in my Wilma. That should be just sick and have a stupid amount of punch for high speeds.

  2. #2
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    When is enough really enough? 2500L on the bar and 1500L on the helmet might be a good starting point!

    I dont think you'd need to look at anything else for a while!

  3. #3
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    I already have more than enough Chromagftw LOL, it's like a gambling addiction (just one more time) I don't know, will have to see the costs as i believe driver upgrades are necssary for both lights. But i know i will!!

  4. #4
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    Damn. I take my eye off the website for a minute and what happens?

    There is only one 1500 lumen option. The website main page is in error. If you go to the actual detail page there is a 26/1500, 22/1300 and 16/1200 selection.

    So, what should I do? A wilma or two pikos or a betty? 1500 lumens be enough?

    J.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    For those interested, Gretna Bikes has the new 2600 lumen Betty/1500 lumen Wilma in stock. I originally was thinking of upgrading only the Betty as i wanted to keep the narrow beam pattern of my Wilma, but i see there are two 1500 lumen options for the Wilma 26/16 degree. So the 2600 lumen 26degree for my Betty, and i can keep a narrow 1500 lumen beam in my Wilma. That should be just sick and have a stupid amount of punch for high speeds.
    So, the only question I still have is are your going to ride this with polarized or non polarized sun glasses?

    You've already got an 1850 Betty, right? If I get the 1500 Wilma doesn't that pretty much light up the road like daylight?

    J.

  6. #6
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    JohnJ80 you have a new Piko, i think the 1500 lumen Wilma will be a perfect match, 2250 true lumens is all anyone would need up to 35MPH, of coarse the 26 degree Betty would step it up a even more and just fill everything up in front of you to 100 feet+. But remember your talking to someone who want's to upgrade from 2950 lumens.

  7. #7
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    Well, I really don't want to layout the cash for a Betty. But so far I've hit all the steps from 200 to 1000 lumens. So one thought just says get it over with and just do it.

    Not sure what to do. 2600 lumens ought to solve it.

    J.

  8. #8
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    No matter how much you have it will never be enough its like crack you might as well OD and get it over with.
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  9. #9
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    John, I have the 1850 Betty and the 1000Lm Wilma (old 830 upgraded to XPG)
    Just to give you an idea; I Usually dim the Betty to 60% when riding in dense bushes and the Wilma at 60% (gives me enough so see around the corners). That is roughly 1700 lumens and I'm extremely comfortable with that (and also have almost 5h of run time ;-)
    I guess that the Wilma with 1500 and 26 degree lens + Piko 750 would be and EXTREMELY nice set up on the "low end" from Lupine and enough for 99% of the time
    Off course, as always the more the better and you can always dim the lights and get longer burning times…
    I think that the Wilma with 1500 Lm in a 15-degree lens configuration is a typo maybe? The 15 degree is supposed to have XPGs and the internal upgrade to 19 W AFAIK so I think I read in the Lupine forum that was going to be around 1200 Lm....
    Indebt, I read somewhere in the Lupine forum (translating from google) that you need to bump up around 40% to really see difference in output (to make it really perceptible)
    SO..... unless you are planning to upgrade internals; Wolf doesn't recommend the upgrade if you expect a big increase in output with only swapping the LEDs/Lens. He says its worth it in the Wilma to get a wider beam for bar use for example. I'll wait for now and next year will upgrade internals in all 3 :-)
    I MUST RESIST for now... next year. 5000 Lumens!!!
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  10. #10
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    Since I have the old P4 based Betty rated at 1400 lumens (actual output approximately 1000 lumens)... An upgrade is in order!!!

    I know the upgrades aren't out yet, but now that the XML based systems have hit the states, the upgrades can't be too far behind.

    Only dilemma will be to decide whether to go with the 22 degree version with 4 XPG + 3 XML OR the 26 degree version with 7x XML.

    I can't wait... And I hope beam shots comparing the 22 vs 26 degree are out soon to help me decide.

    I know the output on the upgrades will be less than the full systems since the old units don't output the same watts - but I should be looking at approximately DOUBLE my current lumens!

    But the catch is - increasing from approximately 1000 lumens to around 2000 lumens is a big step up... But sounds paltry compared to the 2600 of the new lighthead!

    For now, I'll pair the Betty on the bars with either XPG Wilma or XPG Piko for the helmet light as the mood strikes... The extra light from the Wilma is nice but on the other hand the (lack of) weight of the Piko is equally tempting.

    I don't expect to upgrade the Wilma at this time... Unless my 15 year old starts to join me on night rides - in which case an upgrade to the wider angle XML version might be in order.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW View Post
    I think that the Wilma with 1500 Lm in a 15-degree lens configuration is a typo maybe? The 15 degree is supposed to have XPGs and the internal upgrade to 19 W AFAIK so I think I read in the Lupine forum that was going to be around 1200 Lm....
    Indebt, I read somewhere in the Lupine forum (translating from google) that you need to bump up around 40% to really see difference in output (to make it really perceptible)
    SO..... unless you are planning to upgrade internals; Wolf doesn't recommend the upgrade if you expect a big increase in output with only swapping the LEDs/Lens. He says its worth it in the Wilma to get a wider beam for bar use for example. I'll wait for now and next year will upgrade internals in all 3 :-)
    Just to clarify: to upgrade the internals to 26W/19W for the Betty/Wilma you have to send the lighthead to Lupine (or Gretna I guess), because it is not a DIY upgrade.
    It is also quite expensive, at 190E/240E plus postage, and the result is hardly noticeable if you stick to the XPGs....
    I doubt it will be worth it for anyone. Oh yes, another caveat is that this special upgrade is for the internal-switch versions only...

    For those still with the P4-version of the Betty, they will be blown away by the upgrade to the XPG/XML, I'm sure... even the XPG Wilma is brighter than an old Betty... ;-)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW View Post
    John, I have the 1850 Betty and the 1000Lm Wilma (old 830 upgraded to XPG)
    Just to give you an idea; I Usually dim the Betty to 60% when riding in dense bushes and the Wilma at 60% (gives me enough so see around the corners). That is roughly 1700 lumens and I'm extremely comfortable with that (and also have almost 5h of run time ;-)
    I guess that the Wilma with 1500 and 26 degree lens + Piko 750 would be and EXTREMELY nice set up on the "low end" from Lupine and enough for 99% of the time
    Off course, as always the more the better and you can always dim the lights and get longer burning times…
    I think that the Wilma with 1500 Lm in a 15-degree lens configuration is a typo maybe? The 15 degree is supposed to have XPGs and the internal upgrade to 19 W AFAIK so I think I read in the Lupine forum that was going to be around 1200 Lm....
    Indebt, I read somewhere in the Lupine forum (translating from google) that you need to bump up around 40% to really see difference in output (to make it really perceptible)
    SO..... unless you are planning to upgrade internals; Wolf doesn't recommend the upgrade if you expect a big increase in output with only swapping the LEDs/Lens. He says its worth it in the Wilma to get a wider beam for bar use for example. I'll wait for now and next year will upgrade internals in all 3 :-)
    I MUST RESIST for now... next year. 5000 Lumens!!!
    Cheers
    Thanx BBW/JJ for the correction on the 26degree only 1500 lumen Wilma. Also if you info is correct BBW,i won't be sending my two systems in for a two watt increase, not now anyway as i've just taken my battery's out of storage for the fall riding season.If thats what is needed for the bump in outputs from what i have now, your right, best to wait until the betty needs a thirty watt driver.

  13. #13
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    I am in the mood to upgrade as well. I cant decide which way to go, I could use a little help. I have the wilma 1100 and the piko 550. I was thinking I would definitely want to go with a wider lens on the wilma to loose the hot spot in the middle, I have always felt a little more flood on the bar is better. The wilma tended to drown out the piko and take a bit of time for me to adjust to see right around a turn, almost like snow blindness. Then I started thinking about moving the current wilma to my helmet and get the new wilma 22 for the bar. Thats sounds sweet. Naturally, this is leading me to just get a 22 betty for the bars and then use the wilma for my helmet. Its really a sickness. I think I will just go big and be done! I wonder how the 26* is gonna look.

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    Sickness is right.

    I've been running my 750 piko along with my dinotte 1200L (about equivalent to 800 Lupine lumens) for about 1500 lumens out the front. I mostly road and dirt road (cross) ride so I'm pretty comfortable with var lights. I also really can't ride with a helmet light here until after the first frost - too many bugs are attracted to the headlight and it's annoying. So, I'm looking at the Wilma 1500/26 for the bars and then my Piko goes to the helmet in about a month to help make sure cars see me at intersections (I look at them and shine them with the light - works well).

    The other thing that looks interesting is to add another Piko to the bars. That gives me a very adjustable beam with 1500 lumens in a small bar footprint.

    Oh, what to do? Need to decide today.

    J.

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    I have a love hate relationship with piko. Great light, and I think 750 would be perfect with a wider Wilma. But I am really pissed I can't upgrade it. For that reason I won't buy another piko. The led tech is changing to fast not to be able to upgrade.

    Jmc
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMCCRNA View Post
    I have a love hate relationship with piko. Great light, and I think 750 would be perfect with a wider Wilma. But I am really pissed I can't upgrade it. For that reason I won't buy another piko. The led tech is changing to fast not to be able to upgrade.

    Jmc
    I'm about to stop worrying about upgrade-ability. I'm going to sell the Betty anyway, it's just too bright for me (but it was the only Lupine so far with a wide lens option), based on my experience ~1000 lumens on the bar and half that on the helmet is all I need.

    Hey - I could even make do with a single Magicshine and be happy about it - anything more than that is just a cherry on the cake ;-)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    I'm about to stop worrying about upgrade-ability. I'm going to sell the Betty anyway, it's just too bright for me (but it was the only Lupine so far with a wide lens option), based on my experience ~1000 lumens on the bar and half that on the helmet is all I need.

    Hey - I could even make do with a single Magicshine and be happy about it - anything more than that is just a cherry on the cake ;-)

    For me the upgrades are more about lens options and run times than brightness. I rode a niterider classic halogen for fifteen years, the new LEDs are plenty bright. Its nice to be able to widen the lens on the wilma and cut the power a bit, giving more runtime with the same light. The piko 550 is just a little off for the very tight, twisty single track I ride. I bet the 750 would be perfect with the wider lens, but I dont want to be locked into a fixed set up.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    it's just too bright for me
    Did anybody ever think we'd hear or see that in print as recently as a few years ago?
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

  19. #19
    BBW
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    Sickness is right.

    I've been running my 750 piko along with my dinotte 1200L (about equivalent to 800 Lupine lumens) for about 1500 lumens out the front. I mostly road and dirt road (cross) ride so I'm pretty comfortable with var lights. I also really can't ride with a helmet light here until after the first frost - too many bugs are attracted to the headlight and it's annoying. So, I'm looking at the Wilma 1500/26 for the bars and then my Piko goes to the helmet in about a month to help make sure cars see me at intersections (I look at them and shine them with the light - works well).

    The other thing that looks interesting is to add another Piko to the bars. That gives me a very adjustable beam with 1500 lumens in a small bar footprint.

    Oh, what to do? Need to decide today.

    J.
    John get the Wilma. That light is Lupine's signature; it will always be here and will have many DIYs to come. You said you are also into SAR so I think the Wilma is calling your name resistance is futile
    BBW. MS, RD

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    Thanks for the push over the top. I'm going to order it now.

    1500 lumens ought to be enough. With the additional 750 on the helmet (after the first frost), that gives me 2250 on the road/trail in front. Ought to be fine.

    I would imagine we are getting very close to the end of the lumens war. Pretty soon this is going to turn into a size/feature battle.

    J.

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    John, great choice on placing the order for the Wilma. Looking forward to your findings once it arrives.

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    Apparently what Gretna now has is a hyrbid version of the new lightset. The head is the new head, but the batteries are the same same batteries from the old lightset. Sometime in September, new batteries will be coming out. They will follow the plan of the Piko with a hard case and strap but with the addition of a built in fuel gauge LED set up. Apparently you will be able to configure the fuel gauge to operate as a tail light. (?!)

    J.

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    ^^^, all good and correct info John. I am waiting on the new batteries to show up and the packages to be updated to include the new batts and then I will do my big order.

    Can any of you guys with both a betty and wilma do me a favor and post a pic of the 2 side by side for a solid size comparison? I am having a hard time visualizing the size difference of the heads.

    Thanks in advance.

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    The problem is that they are going to show up in October. For us here in MN, that's getting pretty close to the end of (reasonable) cycling season. I'm willing to ride down in temps to the 20's, but it gets to be a lot less fun when I have to put on the 1200 gram studded tires on the mountain bike. That happens sometime in usually mid November when our weather snaps over to winter. Night riding season for me runs from mid August to about November 1st or so, maybe stretched to the 15th. By Thanksgiving, it's ski season.

    So, it's buy it now or wait until next year. Batteries are a consumable in a sense.

    J.

  25. #25
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    something I've found with my own lights is that a good ratio of bar to helmet lumens is ~2:1 - too much on the bars makes the helmet light kinda pointless as your eyes have to adjust too much to the dimmer light, too much on the helmet and the shadows wash out (the point of a bar light for me).

    thankfully I make my own lights, so maintaining that ratio is a little easier/ cheaper, but it still applies.

    obviously, that ratio depends on preference/ trail type/ phase of the moon etc

  26. #26
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    I agree with your ratio concept. Just the other night, I went riding with about 800 lumens on the bars and 750 on the helmet where I'd have them both on the bar before. Constantly getting surprised by holes and dips because I was completely blowing all the shadows that lend perspective.

    Last year, I was riding with about 200 lumens on the head and 800 on the bar, and that was a bit too little on the head but it worked fine for seeing in corners.

    J.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    ^^^, all good and correct info John. I am waiting on the new batteries to show up and the packages to be updated to include the new batts and then I will do my big order.

    Can any of you guys with both a betty and wilma do me a favor and post a pic of the 2 side by side for a solid size comparison? I am having a hard time visualizing the size difference of the heads.

    Thanks in advance.
    For some reason I'm not getting the updates on this topic?
    Cue, I'll post some for you.. which angle would you like? with or without theme or background
    BBW. MS, RD

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    ^^^. BBW, thanks for the offer. I was very fortunate to get a couple from indebt that was helpful.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    I agree with your ratio concept. Just the other night, I went riding with about 800 lumens on the bars and 750 on the helmet where I'd have them both on the bar before. Constantly getting surprised by holes and dips because I was completely blowing all the shadows that lend perspective.

    Last year, I was riding with about 200 lumens on the head and 800 on the bar, and that was a bit too little on the head but it worked fine for seeing in corners.

    J.
    thanks I used to ride with just a helmet light (30W halogen, then ~800lm LED) and I had a terrible time on the rocks around here. Then I added my ~2000lm bar light and I could suddenly clear stuff I never had a chance of making before, just because of the shadows it cast. Went on a ride last night with my commuter light strapped to my helmet (my normal helmet light is in the middle of an upgrade) which is ~450lm and it was pretty crap. Better than not having it, but I had to turn down my bar light so that the two lights were better balanced.

    BTW, I'm v. jealous of you guys being able to afford Lupine lights though I'm glad people still appreciate (and can afford) such high quality lights!

  30. #30
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    what do you guys think about the 26 degree wilma option? I am leaning towards the 22 for my bar. Do you think the 26 would be too much wasted spill on fast, tight, twisty single track?

    JMC
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    One could only guess without a beam shot comparison or a real world night ride demo,what the difference between the 22/26 degree options would be to one's eyes.What i can tell you is i think the extra 200 lumens the 26 degree option has, will just light up everything in front of your your front wheel and to the sides i bit more than the 22 degree would,and still give you the range the 22 degree has just because of the extra output. This is just a guess though as the two XPG's in the 22 degree are known for more punch down the trail.

    I think if you have a good helmet light in the 750/1000 lumen range, you would be splitting hairs on that decision.

  32. #32
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    BTW, I'm v. jealous of you guys being able to afford Lupine lights though I'm glad people still appreciate (and can afford) such high quality lights!
    I can't really afford them either, but if I look at my train of light buying, I'm trying to get ahead of the curve and end the purchases long term. 1500-2500 lumens will do that, I think,. Then I'm done.

    One could only guess without a beam shot comparison or a real world night ride demo,what the difference between the 22/26 degree options would be to one's eyes.What i can tell you is i think the extra 200 lumens the 26 degree option has, will just light up everything in front of your your front wheel and to the sides i bit more than the 22 degree would,and still give you the range the 22 degree has just because of the extra output. This is just a guess though as the two XPG's in the 22 degree are known for more punch down the trail.

    I think if you have a good helmet light in the 750/1000 lumen range, you would be splitting hairs on that decision.
    Really, I can't imagine there would be much difference between 22 and 26 degrees. I mean, it's only 2 degrees on a side!

    My 1200L is probably a lot closer to 40 degrees. My 750 Piko is a beam about half as wide. In my view, all the Lupine lights tend to have narrow beams, relatively speaking.

    J.

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    I think I would choose the 26 degree Wilma or Betty for the bars if I had to make a choice without seeing the beam shot comparison. I use a 22 degree 1,750 lumen upgraded Betty on the bars and although it does a great job, I wouldn't mind a wider beam. The 16 degree lens on the Betty was ridiculously narrow. In my opinion it is a no brainer to go with the 26 degree lens for the new Betty as otherwise the intensity of the light can be too much when it's not spread out enough. The Wilma helmet mounted, I am not sure yet what I would go with. Maybe the 22 degree for a good compromise. Still, I wouldn't make a big purchase like this yet until we get good comparison beam shots. I don't see any new options yet to upgrade the older Betty and Wilma, but I am happy with my upgraded 1,750 lumen Betty and upgraded 1,000 lumen Wilma so I wouldn't be upgrading anyway. I still don't like the integrated switch on the new light heads and I wouldn't trade mine for a newer brighter model b/c of that.

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    I can't imagine that there is that much difference from 22 to 26 degrees. I mean, it's just two degrees a side from center line.

    Like I said, my Dinotte 1200L must have a 40 degree beam. That's noticeable from a 20 degree (approx) on some of my other lights. But two degrees? I'm having a hard time believing you could even tell by eyeballing it.

    J.

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    One other question. I really prefer the external switch style for the bars. Is there a significant difference between the external and integrated switch lamp heads? I know they have a slight decrease in lumens but is there any other difference?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMCCRNA View Post
    One other question. I really prefer the external switch style for the bars. Is there a significant difference between the external and integrated switch lamp heads? I know they have a slight decrease in lumens but is there any other difference?

    Jmc
    I don't know if 20% to 25% (my rough estimate) counts as a "small" decrease in lumens...

    But I do agree for now that I'll take the tradeoff in lumens to have the convenience of the remote switch.

    I don't know why some people don't like that option - with the Peppi holder on the bar, couldn't be easier to mount and I like the convenience of changing intensity without taking my hands off the bar. To each their own I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abacojeff View Post
    I don't know if 20% to 25% (my rough estimate) counts as a "small" decrease in lumens...

    But I do agree for now that I'll take the tradeoff in lumens to have the convenience of the remote switch.

    I don't know why some people don't like that option - with the Peppi holder on the bar, couldn't be easier to mount and I like the convenience of changing intensity without taking my hands off the bar. To each their own I guess.
    I am with you, the thing is so bright, and with the new updates its really plenty bright. I am talking to gretna now about ordering a external switch 22 or 26 degree betty. Apparently lupine still offers them and they can be sold with the latest LED/optics installed. I used a niterider classic for years and I kinda miss the remote switch.

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    The remote switch is great on mtb bars. On road bars it would be a PITA.

    J.

  39. #39
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    I like the external switch too; I have it on my (old upgraded 830) Wilma which I use on the helmet and I have a little velcro tape were I stick it so I just press the side of the helmet to switch intensity :-)
    The internal switch is very "slick" though
    BBW. MS, RD

  40. #40
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    Beamshots of the new upgrades are UP:
    • Thema anzeigen - Mein Leuchtvergleich 2011
    (use google translate if you will, but the pictures speak for themselves...)

    I was riding with my old Wilma (the P4 version with ~500 lumens) the other day and I was shocked. The amount of light was barely sufficient, but man, was the beam fantastic! No hotspot, no artifacts in the beam, just an even pool of light, no helmet light necessary.
    That's what I fell in love with, and was missing with the XPG upgrades. Now I hope Lupine did their homework, because based on the beamshots above the quality of the lens improved a lot. We'll see...

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    Thanks for sharing Radirpok, been eagerly waiting on these beamshots.

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    Thanks for the link.

    From the pictures though it seems that the 1850/22 XPG setup has just as wide if not just a little wider representation vs. 2600/26 XML setup. The 2600 setup does for sure put out more light.

    It could be the way the lights were aimed as well but when looking at the hoola-hoop and grass area leads me to my conclusion.
    Last edited by cue003; 08-30-2011 at 07:37 AM.

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    Thanks for that link. This confirms what I thought - there is virtually no difference in beam size between 22 and 26 degree versions. however the 26/1500 is brighter.

    That said, beamshots on lights this bright against dark backgrounds are pretty much useless. Where you miss the detail is in the pattern of the beam as it falls off to dark. So this may not tell the story well either.

    J.

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    Raderpok, thanks for the link I've for the most part take photo comparisons with a grain of salt,but these seem pretty good as far as seing the differences in the beam paterns. It looks to me like the Betty 2600/26degree does have a bit more spread of light than the 1850/22degree has,as well as a little more throw as the trees in the background are more lit up. I had no luck translating the page so dont know if comments differ from the photo's. Conclusion for me is, if there are credible reviews confirming the photo differences between the 2600/1850 Betty it may be worth the upgrade even if the light has to go in to do it of coarse after the fall/winter riding season.

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    What you will be seeing from those is that the side spill is not well represented nor is the intensity difference between them. What you can get from the beamshots is a sense of how much area the brightest center spot covers and the quality of the beam (hot spots and artifacts). Any comparison of how bright they are relatively or what the side spill near the edge looks like (to a fairly significant degree) will not be accurate. It's because of what your eye sees and how that is represented by a digital camera.

    J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    What you will be seeing from those is that the side spill is not well represented nor is the intensity difference between them. What you can get from the beamshots is a sense of how much area the brightest center spot covers and the quality of the beam (hot spots and artifacts). Any comparison of how bright they are relatively or what the side spill near the edge looks like (to a fairly significant degree) will not be accurate. It's because of what your eye sees and how that is represented by a digital camera.

    J.
    +1
    The camera will not capture the spill since it has to adapt to the huge amount of light
    that the center spot produces. Its very noticeable to me in the picture of the piko 550, which in no way its a representation of the light in person.
    On the other hand, the camera captures very well the spill of the Tesla and it also makes it look almost as the widest but I do believe is because of the weak intensity of the spill and the very small spot.
    At this levels of light, a pic is just a rough guideline of pattern.
    Cool pics though! in the translation said something along the lines that a Wilma 1500 with 26 lens looks like a Betty 1850 with 22 (don't quote me literally)
    BBW. MS, RD

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW View Post
    Cool pics though! in the translation said something along the lines that a Wilma 1500 with 26 lens looks like a Betty 1850 with 22 (don't quote me literally)
    When it was clear that Lupine would be coming out with XML versions... I wondered if Wilma would become so good it would make the Betty unnecessary except for the really hardcore or those needing 'ne plus ultra'

    I think it really has come to that.... Wilma should be good for 95% of us. But 99.9% would still want the Betty anyway (except Radirpok it seems).
    Last edited by abacojeff; 08-31-2011 at 03:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW View Post
    +1
    The camera will not capture the spill since it has to adapt to the huge amount of light
    that the center spot produces. Its very noticeable to me in the picture of the piko 550, which in no way its a representation of the light in person.
    On the other hand, the camera captures very well the spill of the Tesla and it also makes it look almost as the widest but I do believe is because of the weak intensity of the spill and the very small spot.
    At this levels of light, a pic is just a rough guideline of pattern.
    Cool pics though! in the translation said something along the lines that a Wilma 1500 with 26 lens looks like a Betty 1850 with 22 (don't quote me literally)
    Would those camera issues also exist in the same manor going old school (35mm)film? Don't know to much about photography.

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    Has Gretna said when they expect the upgrades to be in stock?
    '08 Turner Highline
    '00 DBR X6

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    Digital cameras and film cameras are about the same for ability to see light intensity. Both of them can see about 5-6 f-stops (doublings) of light. Your eye can see 20-22 fstops (doublings). There is a HUGE difference between the two. So, once we get to light that is roughly 6 doublings brighter than night lighting, we exceed the ability of the camera to accurately portray it. Best guess from looking at my lights is that that happens around 300-400 true lumens so so.

    You can, however tell beam quality (artifacts, hotspots etc..) but you can't see which one is brighter and make a judgment by how much. You also can't see how it tails off into dark (spill) and make much of a judgment on that either.

    J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    Would those camera issues also exist in the same manor going old school (35mm)film? Don't know to much about photography.
    I wouldn't know Indebt my observations are purely from my experience seeing my light in person and trying to reproduce what I see in a picture... never the same
    Last edited by BBW; 08-31-2011 at 09:42 AM.
    BBW. MS, RD

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    Quote Originally Posted by abacojeff View Post
    When it was clear that Lupine would be coming out with XML versions... I wondered if Wilma would become so good it would make the Betty unnecessary except for the really hardcore or those needing 'ne plus ultra'

    I think it really has come to that.... Wilma should be good for 95% of us. But 99.9% would still want the Betty anyway (except Radipork it seems).
    I totally agree with you; I wondered if Betty would disappear but remember that IF you don't want or need that much light you can dim the light and gain burning time (which is always awesome for adventure or 24h racing!). On the other hand boys will always be boys... there is something about RAW POWER that attract us
    Heck I remember when I had my GSXR-600 (sportbike) I would smoke friends on 1000's
    Most of us have way more that what we need
    BBW. MS, RD

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    Cheers!!! on the feedback guys. I'm not much of a photographer and i guess one could only hope the photos been looked at are what the person see's with their eyes,and as objective as it may be, it still may not be what others view accurate.

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    Guys sorry to hijack the thread but I have a question that might interest some especially when it comes to these lupine lights.

    How "waterproof" are they? can they be submerged in say 2 feet of water. what happens if I drop it in water during a ride where it is raining pretty bad? Are the connectors sealed from the light to the battery?

    Thanks

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    Hey cue003, Lupine doen't pass their lights off as (waterproof),only the battery!! but they are very water resistant and will survive been submerged as long as the conectors havent come loose. I have road in torrential downpours for hours, doesns of times and not a glitch.Cheers!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback_X6 View Post
    Has Gretna said when they expect the upgrades to be in stock?
    I must have deleted my email from Bill, but if i remember correctly it was early October.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    Guys sorry to hijack the thread but I have a question that might interest some especially when it comes to these lupine lights.

    How "waterproof" are they? can they be submerged in say 2 feet of water. what happens if I drop it in water during a ride where it is raining pretty bad? Are the connectors sealed from the light to the battery?

    Thanks
    From the Lupine website:

    "Are our lamps waterproof? Yes, temporary submerging up to 2 m is no problem. All our lamps and battery packs significantly exceed the IP 68 industrial standard."
    that is 6 feet underwater! and batteries are sealed to withstand 2,5 bars (roughly 45 feet)
    Don't worry about any amount of rain or if you drop it... these light are tough and built to last, believe me, I have crashed hard with my wilma and 30$ and 4 days later (glass and front cap) it was like new. Off course it never stopped working
    BBW. MS, RD

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    Indebt and BBW

    That is great news. thanks for the quick feedback.

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    I just received my new Wilma (1500/26). Here's some quick feedback from playing with it in the driveway:

    1. Beam is not what I would characterize as "wide". It's nice with high lux density in front. I'd characterize it as about as wide (exclusive of spill) as one lane on a highway. On a rural two lane road, it will cover about a lane and a half at about 20' with the bright part of the beam. That is less wide that some of the floody beams like the Dinotte 1200L (don't have the 1200L+ as a distinction). It's a bright light for sure and the light flux is high in the beam.

    2. It is BRIGHT! It is quite bright in the main beam. No other lighting is required. Having a headlight is only necessary to get to areas around the bright spot of the beam. For road riding, the point of a helmet light with this light is for backup and for alerting drivers at cross streets. There is no benefit of additional lumens needed. I would have no issues riding on a roadbike at full speed down hills with this light anymore than I would during the day. I would feel comfortable at speeds of 30-35mph no sweat.

    3. Not having used a Wilma before, I'm impressed with it's small size. It's about half - 60% the volume of my Dinotte 1200L.

    4. Throw is ok and far more than adequate for cycling, but not it's strong suit. By throw I mean that at 250' it will light up a broad area to be readily visible, but it has lost it's spot characteristics. I live on a river with a 50' bank, I have a 100' long dock that is at the end of about 100' of beach. it will light up the entire dock, a 27' sailboat, and a 15' fishing boat when shined down on it form the top of that bank (about 250' back). You can clearly see everything, but it is not the "light of day" sort of bright that would get with a current state of the art 150 lumen hand flashlight. It's a very broad beam at that range. For example, this light would not be as useful on the water at night looking for navigation marks at long range. However, shining that light down the 55 step staircase (4' wide) there is not a detail that is not illuminated very brightly (to daylight bright) and to about 3' on either side of the staircase. It is BRIGHT. This would be plenty bright for singletrack usage for sure.

    Very happy with this light. I just wish I could ride it at night but won't be able to do so until at least Sunday night since I'm going out of town on college visits with my daughter. The combination of this light and the Piko 3 (750) is killer and may just be - dare I say it - too bright? I'm pretty sure I'm at the end of my lumen chase at this point. I'm not sure what I'd do with 2600 lumens of Betty at 26 degrees. I'd probably be running that on medium for most of the time.

    I'd characterize it as double the Piko for sure. Very impressive light.

    J.

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    Thanks for sharing John.

    Tremendous choice. If Lupining it, that would be the exact same setup I'd chose. I wouldn't go less than the 26 degree optics on the bars either. A 2:1 bar to helmet ratio appears to be magic number. Its worked for me so far.

    If I don't ask someone else will, so beam shots please when convenient!

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    Great review JJ, and yes you are now in the big lumen club. 2250 true lumens is bright stuff. All though $900 isn't cheap, you have a brand new system of the highest quality available in todays market that will keep a smile on your face every time you go out. Safey issues are resolved as well.Cheers!!!

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    I'm pairing this all with a 300R tail light from Dinotte that looks like a winner too. I'm throwing lumens from every direction!

    I'll take a stab at beam shots later.

    J.

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    If only they would let you do a night ride on the Great Wall of China, both you and the wall would be seen from space LOL !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    1. Beam is not what I would characterize as "wide". It's nice with high lux density in front. I'd characterize it as about as wide (exclusive of spill) as one lane on a highway. On a rural two lane road, it will cover about a lane and a half at about 20' with the bright part of the beam. That is less wide that some of the floody beams like the Dinotte 1200L (don't have the 1200L+ as a distinction). It's a bright light for sure and the light flux is high in the beam.
    How about directly-in-front-of-the-handlebar-and-to-the-sides lighting? So does it have enough spill to see anything outside the main beam?

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    JJ,
    oh yeah!! Now you are playing with power. Do you think that now having the Wilma that it is a better choice than having 2 pikos? Also how does that narrower beam of the Piko light up the boats and such compared to the Wilma and the 150 lumen handheld? Does the Piko retain some spot at that distance like the 150lumen setup?

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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    How about directly-in-front-of-the-handlebar-and-to-the-sides lighting? So does it have enough spill to see anything outside the main beam?
    There is plenty of light. It's just that the light is not as wide as my 1200L. if you had used a 16 degree Wilma you would see it as "wide". there is a nice progression from brightest to dim as you move to the edge of the beam.

    Quote Originally Posted by cue003
    oh yeah!! Now you are playing with power. Do you think that now having the Wilma that it is a better choice than having 2 pikos? Also how does that narrower beam of the Piko light up the boats and such compared to the Wilma and the 150 lumen handheld? Does the Piko retain some spot at that distance like the 150lumen setup?
    The Wilma is a better choice than two Pikos.

    The ability of the Piko to shoot the distance like the Wilma is about the same but with the intensity at basically a half. Frankly, I see no practical difference between a 22 degree beam and a 16 degree beam.

    If I were buying a Wilma as a flashlight, I'd get the narrowest beam possible. My 150 lumen handhelds that have a much tighter spot beam than either of these lights will put a dot of light on that dock that is brighter but they won't light up the whole thing. In other words, the flux of light out of the flashlight is a much, much tighter beam.

    J.

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    Congrats JohnJ80 on your new Wilma purchase. It will give you many years of use for sure. One thing I would like to say is that you seem to believe that a few degree difference in beams doesn't make much difference. For those of us who originally upgraded our Betty's and bought the 16 degree upgrade first and then switched to the 22 degree lens, the difference was incredible. With the 16 degree it was so intense within too narrow a beam and felt like riding in tunnel. With the 22 degree lens it makes the beam open up to the sides enough so that the feeling of riding in tunnel is gone. This totally changed the light and for the better. Anyway, I have owned my Lupines for over 3 years without a single issue and the orginal batteries are still getting me through my rides no problem and I hope yours prove to be just as reliable. I also love using the Wilma with the Lupine headband for a super right headlight for use outside doing other activities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    Guys sorry to hijack the thread but I have a question that might interest some especially when it comes to these lupine lights.

    How "waterproof" are they? can they be submerged in say 2 feet of water. what happens if I drop it in water during a ride where it is raining pretty bad? Are the connectors sealed from the light to the battery?

    Thanks

    I have been in some wicked downpours while using my Lupines where the rain was so heavy I felt like I was riding in a river the street had so much water on it and by the time I reached home I couldn't have more drenched. I have also used the lights in the winter in snowstorms with no issues other than people looked at me like I was nuts riding a bike in that. No problems at all in the rain or snow for that matter so unless you ride your bike on the ocean floor I would not worry about the "waterproof" concern.

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    ^^^^ thanks for the feedback.


    Also just checked and there are Lots more various Beamshots have been put up in the earlier referenced link. Check em out.

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    The difference between 22 and 26 is marginal. The difference between 16 and 22 would be significant.

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    Finally got the chance to ride with both my new 1500/26 Wilma and the Piko 3 on the helmet. This is a killer combination. The Piko beam fits "in" the Wilma beam and the 2:1 ratio is correct. The Piko beam adds to but gets absorbed by the Wilma beam so it turns into a nice 2250 lumen light when going straight ahead.

    Since the beamshot thing would not be useful anymore, if you were to ride down the middle of a two lane highway, this beam with both of these lights on would light up the about 3/4 of the roadway with a bright as daylight light and the spill would cover out to the white lines on the side an a little beyond. I'm recovering from a (^&$*#$# knee injury, so I have to take it easy but down hill on a road bike at 30mph is not a problem at all. There is a bit of the contrast issue with having both a headlight and a bar light knocking out some of the depth enhancing shadows, but it's a pretty darn good light set up.

    Hard to believe that a couple of years ago, I'd have been looking at 2250 lumens today.

    J

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    Hey JohnJ80 i was hoping you could coment on the color rendition. I know the 1200L you have is more blueish white as it is using i believe the same p-4's as my old Triden X has. But many photos i've seen of XML lights have had a greenish tint especially in the spill.

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    I'm upgrading both mt Bettys as soon as upgrade is available from Gretna. Can't wait to ride local desert trails w 5200 lumin.

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    Not to rain on anyone's parade as i also want to upgrade my Betty2/Wilma combo, but after exchanging emails with Gretna i was informed the driver upgrades to get those lumen results are very expensive on top of the leds and optic upgrade costs. May be close to to the price of a new lamphead,just a guess though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    Hey JohnJ80 i was hoping you could coment on the color rendition. I know the 1200L you have is more blueish white as it is using i believe the same p-4's as my old Triden X has. But many photos i've seen of XML lights have had a greenish tint especially in the spill.
    It is *slightly* green, not particularly noticeable. It's mostly noticeable on low or in the far edges of the spill. In the bright part of the beam, it looks very white and no noticeable color tint. It's slight at best and the contrast is good.

    J.

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    It must feel pretty good to have such a quality kick a@# set up now JohnJ80. To be able to ride with speed and confidence just like daylight. 2250 lumens,,,, Ya-Hooo!!! Hope the knee behaves JJ. Cheers!!!

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    It is fun, but now it has me thinking about 2600 lumens.... this light thing is a sickness.

    It is great to be able to ride whenever you want to and at full speed and not be constrained by darkness.

    J.

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    What are you going to do? Ride with sunglasses?

    J.

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    It is a sickness!!!!! after getting the news on how expensive the driver/leds/and optic upgrades are going to be to upgrade my Betty, it has me thinking of selling my more than perfect Wilma to but the 2600/26degree Betty for my bars and use my 1850/22degree Betty2 for my helmet. Now thats a sickness!!

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    Your post was supposed to be before my post. How the heck did that happen?

    J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    What are you going to do? Ride with sunglasses?

    J.
    Welders helmet!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    Not to rain on anyone's parade as i also want to upgrade my Betty2/Wilma combo, but after exchanging emails with Gretna i was informed the driver upgrades to get those lumen results are very expensive on top of the leds and optic upgrade costs. May be close to to the price of a new lamphead,just a guess though.
    The latest XML based Lupines achieve their increased lumens from approximately 20% increase in output for XML compared to XPG AND an increase in current/power.

    So, of course, a simple upgrade of the leds/optics will only gain part of the lumens possible compared to the new units. Since the driver update to increase current to match the new units would be a 'factory' upgrade as opposed to a DIY job - I doubt many would bother to do this.

    FYI the Upgrades are rated:

    7 x XML for external switch Betty = 2100 lumens

    7 x XML for internal switch Betty = 2200 lumens

    4 x XML for internal switch Wilma = 1300 lumens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback_X6 View Post
    Has Gretna said when they expect the upgrades to be in stock?
    Just an FYI, I have the 1850L Betty that I purchased last year. That's the "old" one he is taking about.

    I emailed Bill the beginning of the week and here is his reply;


    "hello woody, should be available by mid- october. the 26 degree upgrade will only produce about 2300 lumens. the new betty pulls 26 watts, and the old only 24 watts. to replace the driver would not be cost effective. but still, the 26 degree , 2300 lumen should be a nice upgrade. cheers, bill"


    Woody

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBrady View Post
    I'm upgrading both mt Bettys as soon as upgrade is available from Gretna. Can't wait to ride local desert trails w 5200 lumin.
    Not to be persnickity... but the upgrade =

    4200 lumens total (if external switch)

    4400 lumens total (if internal switch)


    but the people you blind out on the trail won't be able to tell the difference in lumens!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by abacojeff View Post
    Not to be persnickity... but the upgrade =

    4200 lumens total (if external switch)

    4400 lumens total (if internal switch)


    but the people you blind out on the trail won't be able to tell the difference in lumens!!!
    Are they now not 2600 lumina ea totaling 5200 or did I read it wrong?

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    No!!, you didn't read anything wrong RBrady. If you go for Driver upgrades, as well as the 7x XML, you will have 2600 lumens for each Betty.

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    That's 4X the lighting of two car headlights. That's way over the top.

    j.

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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    No!!, you didn't read anything wrong RBrady. If you go for Driver upgrades, as well as the 7x XML, you will have 2600 lumens for each Betty.
    Let's be clear about this... the driver upgrades don't 'officially' exist.

    The factory will do it if you send your lights in to them - but they've already explained it will not be worth the cost versus the lumen gain for the majority of current Betty/Wilma owners to get the 2 watt increase (from 24w to 26w for Betty and 17w to 19w for Wilma).

    In addition, the driver update is not possible for the external switch Bettys (like I have)...

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    I'm pretty clear,lol. As post 74 stated, it isn't cost efective to sent your lights back to Lupine for two more watts, but they will do it thus the 2600 lumen upgrades are there if you want to spend the big $$$. I believe Wolf claimed up to 2300 lumens without the driver upgrades. Cheers!!!

  90. #90
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    I'm totally happy with my 22 degree 1750 Betty upgrade. More important to me is I've got the external switch and Peppi. No matter what hype you hear about how useless the external switch was, and how convenient the self contained switch is, it's all b.s. imo.

    A lot of people like to chase the technology, but at some point we all have to get off the merry-go-round. Pick you're spot and jump off. I did

  91. #91
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    For me it's not a deal breaker either way. I think the external switch is a great option. When riding in a group with lower powered lights where the terain that is like a roller coaster it would be nice not to risk an endo to turn my lights up or down while trying not to cast shadows on the guys in front.

    I believe you can still order the new products with the external switch if prefered. Either way,, great product!!!

  92. #92
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    I see they still offer the external switch so I was mistaken. I thought Lupine totally discontinued it. Some like the integrated switch, but like I said the external switch is great and you don't have to take your hand off the bar. Worth the extra money imo.

    Anyway you go, Lupine is top shelf.

  93. #93
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    Has anyone asked if you can do the driver upgrade and keep your current led boards? Then down the road go to the xml upgrades? Also for the U.S. people, what is the exact cost quoted for the driver upgrade? One final question, can Gretna do them or do they have to go back to Lupine Germany?
    '08 Turner Highline
    '00 DBR X6

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondback_X6 View Post
    Has anyone asked if you can do the driver upgrade and keep your current led boards? Then down the road go to the xml upgrades? Also for the U.S. people, what is the exact cost quoted for the driver upgrade? One final question, can Gretna do them or do they have to go back to Lupine Germany?
    DB,
    You should send those questions to Bill at Gretna Bikes. He will answer them for you and it won't be hearsay.

    Woody

  95. #95
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    Well you learn something new every day.

    For the last couple of years Ive been running a Tesla 5 on the bars and a Wilma 5 (900) on the lid for MTB, and just the Tesla on the bars for road. I was very happy with this combination.
    The Tesla died last week unfortunately, any slight shock or bump would either make it flicker uncontrolably or turn off totally for about 1-2 seconds! Therefore Ive had to use the Wilma on the road bike. This is not a nice experience due to the narrow 16 degree beam. It is not what I'd describe as a useful beam pattern for this use.

    I knew the 1100lm upgrade existed for the Wilma, but have held off as I never really felt the need to upgrade. Looking at Lupine's website it seems like they are phasing out the Tesla too, so I didnt want to directly replace the head. (Ive never been that enamoured with the build of my Tesla when comparing it to my Wilma, it always seemed a bit cheap and tinny!)
    Then I see there are different upgrates (16/1100, 22/1300 & 26/1500).
    Then I found this thread, specifically the detail about the new Wilma heads being 19W.
    Google is great!

    Now Im very tempted to replace my duff Tesla head with a Wilma 26/1500 head unit. What I want to make sure of is before I spend this amount, that the light pattern will be as 'usefull' as the Tesla on the road. The beam patterns in the link further up make it look like even the 26 degree Wilma is still nowhere near as wide as the Tesla (however I do understand the comments about the different sensitivity of the eye vs photographic film).

    Anyway sorry for the long post. My question basically is:


    Can someone please give me a first hand comparison between the Tesla 700 beam pattern and the new Wilma 26/1500? Specifically the amount of spill, and how wide and how even it is please?

    Thanks.


    PS I cant afford a Betty!

  96. #96
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    I ride with a Wilma 26/1500 on the bars and a Piko 3 750lumens on the helmet. My riding is primarily on the road.

    The Wilma beam lights up pretty much 2/3rds to 3/4s of a standard two lane rural highway very brightly with the majority of the beam (brightest part) aimed with it's closest edge at about 7-10' in front of the bike. The Piko beam, when added to this, fits entirely within the Wilma beam and adds to the light making it brighter (total is 2250 lumens). With this combination, I am comfortable descending at <30mph and could probably go somewhat faster but haven't had the opportunity.

    This combination doesn't throw as far, I would guess, as the 16 wilma but it is more than adequate for the riding I describe. With this setup, I can pretty much ride as if it were daylight.


    J.

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    I ride with a Wilma 26/1500 on the bars and a Piko 3 750lumens on the helmet. My riding is primarily on the road.

    The Wilma beam lights up pretty much 2/3rds to 3/4s of a standard two lane rural highway very brightly with the majority of the beam (brightest part) aimed with it's closest edge at about 7-10' in front of the bike. The Piko beam, when added to this, fits entirely within the Wilma beam and adds to the light making it brighter (total is 2250 lumens). With this combination, I am comfortable descending at <30mph and could probably go somewhat faster but haven't had the opportunity.

    This combination doesn't throw as far, I would guess, as the 16 wilma but it is more than adequate for the riding I describe. With this setup, I can pretty much ride as if it were daylight.


    J.
    Just to compare and contrast a different setup. I also do a lot of riding by lights, and I find that road riding with just the Piko 3 750 on my helmet serves me perfectly. I can honestly say that I don't recall ever thinking that I wish I had more light while out on road rides. I hit speeds in the mid 30's on the downhill sections and cruise around 18mph. Works awesome.

    Now when on mtb rides, I have to have a big flood on the bar.
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

  98. #98
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    LOL. I'm the other way around. I find that I need more light on the road because there is a larger volume of road/trail that I'm worried about and I'm moving faster.

    The roads I'm riding on probably would qualify as trails. Not in very good conditions, lots of pot holes etc... So maybe we really do agree on that.

    Riding with just the Piko is *ok*, but I have been surprised when obstacles come into view on occasions. Not so with the dual combination.

    That said, riding with the Wilma on the road is fine give it's wide coverage etc... but, when you're addicted to Lumens, then more is better.

    J.

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by billysan View Post
    Well you learn something new every day.

    Can someone please give me a first hand comparison between the Tesla 700 beam pattern and the new Wilma 26/1500? Specifically the amount of spill, and how wide and how even it is please?

    PS I cant afford a Betty!
    Konichiwa Billysan...

    The comparison you want to see was previously posted by Radirpok... look here:


    Mein Leuchtvergleich 2011



    I have the Tesla, 550 lumen XPG Piko, 1100 lumen XPG Wilma, "1400" lumen P4 Betty (waiting for 26 degree XML upgrade!).

    Based on my experience and the beamshots in the link...

    Tesla has an interesting beam pattern due to the use of a reflector (as opposed to the use of 'optics' for the other models). You get a decent amount of side spill for visibility near the front wheel and on the sides, but without a lot of projection in those directions. This is coupled with a 'main' beam that is relatively narrow. There is decent visibility in the distance but is not very wide at longer distances. Pictures are somewhat deceiving. First impressions are often: "Tesla looks nice and wide"... but this is only near, not far.

    Wilma (and Betty and Piko) with the optics format have varying beam angles depending on the use of XML vs XPG... so we can see beam widths from 15 degrees to 26 degrees. But what is interesting about this is that the light fall off on the sides is more pronounced... there is a sharper cut off than Tesla.

    HOWEVER, don't be fooled by the digital pictures - as already mentioned, due to limitation in dynamic range, in 'real life' there is more spill than appears in pictures.

    I'm sure I'm really going to like the 26 degree Betty upgrade and will pair that light with the Piko on the helmet most of the time.

    If I want to go gung-ho I can throw the Wilma on the helmet... but this would be overkill most of the time since I'm not doing much technical night riding.

  100. #100
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    That looks to me like the beam on the Tesla will be narrow than the Wilma's 26 degree beam and ought to be a lot less light per unit area too.

    J.

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