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  1. #26
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    This is actually a better mount than the 800L type.

    J.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    You tell um' stum-mum...That's the thing about DiNotte. They don't release new information publicly through the expected channels. When I e-mailed them to ask about refits they acted like they have been doing this S--- all along! F-me!... and I'm just now finding out about it?! You would think that since they advertise on MTBR that some one there would release the new information to people using the forums.

    I bet you sooner or later some one will post up and claim that DiNotte refit their old 600L with newer LED's ( making it an 800L+ ). When they do I will likely pitch a fit since I've been waiting for that option for the last 2 yrs.
    You know, if I were Dinotte, I'd say screw the upgrades. It can't be profitable for them and it's a royal PITA. Then you guys rip on them for not advertising etc.. that which is probably a loss leader to retain customers instead of a profit opportunity for them. How many other light suppliers offer upgrades? It's a small number, you would need only the fingers on one hand to count them and still have 2 or 3 left over.

    So this is actually a good problem to have - a light supplier that is still willing to provide customer service at a level like this. It's quaint that there still is a manufacturer out there who you can call up and talk to and find a solution for what works for you. Just make a note that if you want to find out what Dinotte is up to, give them a call.

    J.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    You know, if I were Dinotte, I'd say screw the upgrades. It can't be profitable for them and it's a royal PITA. Then you guys rip on them for not advertising etc.. that which is probably a loss leader to retain customers instead of a profit opportunity for them. How many other light suppliers offer upgrades? It's a small number, you would need only the fingers on one hand to count them and still have 2 or 3 left over.

    So this is actually a good problem to have - a light supplier that is still willing to provide customer service at a level like this. It's quaint that there still is a manufacturer out there who you can call up and talk to and find a solution for what works for you. Just make a note that if you want to find out what Dinotte is up to, give them a call.

    J.
    Fair enough point.
    "...like sex with the trail." - Boe

  4. #29
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    Nothing like being punished for good deeds, is there?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraXXoR View Post
    Nothing like being punished for good deeds, is there?
    So when you pay for an upgraded light, should you not receive such? How tough would it be to include the mount? Now we have to recontact Dinotte about a mount that they don't advertise on their site, and order one separately?
    Had I known about it at the time of my upgrade (3 weeks ago), I would've gotten it.

    So I say again, wtf?
    "...like sex with the trail." - Boe

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    ....So this is actually a good problem to have - a light supplier that is still willing to provide customer service at a level like this. It's quaint that there still is a manufacturer out there who you can call up and talk to and find a solution for what works for you. Just make a note that if you want to find out what Dinotte is up to, give them a call.

    J.
    The problem John is that when you contact them, you don't know everything ( service wise ) that's available to you. This means that if you don't ask the right questions you won't necessarily find out what you might need to know. I don't mind asking questions but you don't know what you don't know.

    There really needs to be some transparency on the part of DiNotte when it comes to upgrades and other service type options. Their website ( which has always left much to be desired ) needs to be updated with a section that gives full disclosure concerning upgrades, modifications and trade-ins. There should be no guess work on the part of the customer. If you lay this out in black and white you will have no beef from me. ( ** Really though, is this too much to ask? )

    In the mean time people who bought DiNotte products and were lured in thinking the products would be upgradeable are going to continue to feel let down or worse, cheated.

    DiNotte has reliable products. Service of those products has never been a problem or issue. "Product and service disclosure", on the other hand has always been one of their shortcomings and it reflects badly on their image as a high quality bike light manufacturer.

    As has been pointed out to me before, "When you're good, people expect more out of you than maybe they should". It kind of goes with the territory I suppose.

  7. #32
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    That's why if I were Dinotte I'd not mess with the upgrades. Take it for the good thing it is. The transparency comment is a bit off.

  8. #33
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    I would probably just say as a small business owner that there is a very fine line between keeping your existing customers and servicing them better than your competitor and trying to make a profit which IS part of the reason we are in business. Not the whole reason but certainly the most important.

    And in the bike light industry, it can't be easy to negotiate the two when someone else sells a similar but inferior product for far less and offers no customer service however, at a price tag that would put them out of business. ($45)

    I'm sure DiNotte and other US light makers not only pay higher salaries, but also pay SS taxes, workers comp, disab, medical or partial medical, etc, etc, etc. It's not really a fair war but they have to somehow satisfy their customers while selling to new customers all while trying to make a profit, all while competing in that environment.

    After all, no profit, no DiNotte or any other light maker unless it's a labor of love from an individual.

    I can't even figure out how they all stay in business w/ those $45 lights out there which aren't too bad. You just take a chance if there is a problem, No C/S.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblemumble View Post
    So when you pay for an upgraded light, should you not receive such?

    So I say again, wtf?
    I'm sorry, I don't get it.

    You pay, you send the light, you get the LEDs replaced...

    wtf's with all the wtfs?

    Is it that you didn't get an unadvertised bracket upgrade?

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraXXoR View Post
    I'm sorry, I don't get it.

    You pay, you send the light, you get the LEDs replaced...

    wtf's with all the wtfs?

    Is it that you didn't get an unadvertised bracket upgrade?
    The bracket costs little and would be a boost to customer satisfaction. It's one of those, "Wow, wasn't expecting this" when you open the box.
    Dinotte used to do this. When I would order some random part, they'd include a handful of spare mounts, new straps and such. It was always a very nice gesture.
    From a cost/gain perspective it strikes me as a no brainer, why did they stop?
    "...like sex with the trail." - Boe

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    The problem John is that when you contact them, you don't know everything ( service wise ) that's available to you. This means that if you don't ask the right questions you won't necessarily find out what you might need to know. I don't mind asking questions but you don't know what you don't know.

    There really needs to be some transparency on the part of DiNotte when it comes to upgrades and other service type options. Their website ( which has always left much to be desired ) needs to be updated with a section that gives full disclosure concerning upgrades, modifications and trade-ins. There should be no guess work on the part of the customer. If you lay this out in black and white you will have no beef from me. ( ** Really though, is this too much to ask? )
    I agree 100%.

    The problem is *not* that they didn't include something for free - it's that even after reading through their website you didn't know about additional options.

    Look, one can complain about them without "villifying" them. My complaint is that I own several other lights from non-dinotte companies just because I have more than 1 bike and found moving my 400L around to be to much hassle. Had I known that they had mounts, I could have saved money that I sent to other companies and paid Dinotte for an upgrade. Or, when my friends ask about what light do buy, I wouldn't immediately dismiss Dinotte because their 400l can't be move between bikes - you know?

    The problem is that you have to read the forum and pic up bits and pieces to find out what's really available from them.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    ....The problem is that you have to read the forum and pic up bits and pieces to find out what's really available from them.
    Thank you Paul. That is precisely my point and by the way you give a very good example as to why "a lack of transparency" can work against a company. Now if DiNotte had a link on their website that gave the details or had a representative post up on the forum giving all the new information no one could claim ignorance. If you're going to offer refits or trade ins it needs to be done right. Knowing all the options available is really important because "When it's your money being spent, it matters".

    Now if I was the only one with a bad experience I'd probably just keep it to myself but unfortunately ( as others have shown ) that is just not the case.

  13. #38
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    Open letter to DInotte:

    Dear Rob,

    Here's some Market advice - get rid of the specials and upgrades you do for your customers because there are two guys that don't think you broadcast it well enough. It's just not worth the hassle. As you know, no good deed goes unpunished.

    J.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    Open letter to DInotte:

    Dear Rob,

    Here's some Market advice - get rid of the specials and upgrades you do for your customers because there are two guys that don't think you broadcast it well enough. It's just not worth the hassle. As you know, no good deed goes unpunished.

    J.
    Dear John,

    Here's some Personal advice - learn the difference between someone complaining about one specific topic, versus disparaging the entire company/person in general. You're going to have a lot of trouble dealing with people if you believe that every time someone feels you did something they didn't like that it's a giant and very personal attack - they don't like your shirt, you stop being friends with them? They're annoyed you didn't return their call, tell them it's to much hassle being friends with them and never call them back again?

    What you're saying is basically "My new friends said they liked blue more than red, and my shirt was red, so I'm taking my toys and I'm going home!". Sorry if you don't understand the difference between "Their whole company sucks!" and "I think they could really do better if they took their useful service and made it easier to figure out that they actually do it".

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    Dear John,

    Here's some Personal advice - learn the difference between someone complaining about one specific topic, versus disparaging the entire company/person in general. You're going to have a lot of trouble dealing with people if you believe that every time someone feels you did something they didn't like that it's a giant and very personal attack - they don't like your shirt, you stop being friends with them? They're annoyed you didn't return their call, tell them it's to much hassle being friends with them and never call them back again?

    What you're saying is basically "My new friends said they liked blue more than red, and my shirt was red, so I'm taking my toys and I'm going home!". Sorry if you don't understand the difference between "Their whole company sucks!" and "I think they could really do better if they took their useful service and made it easier to figure out that they actually do it".
    Completely agree. It's unfortunate people do get so defensive at complaints toward certain companies. Takes the 'review' out of MTBR.
    "...like sex with the trail." - Boe

  16. #41
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    Here's some personal advice back - since we're being so helpful to one another. Complaining also gets tiring especially when it's about a company that was trying to be helpful (and I don't care who that is).

    This whole thing is ridiculous. They do some favors and work to help out customers and they get whacked for it. I mean, come on - give it a rest.

    J.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblemumble View Post
    The bracket costs little and would be a boost to customer satisfaction. It's one of those, "Wow, wasn't expecting this" when you open the box.
    Dinotte used to do this. When I would order some random part, they'd include a handful of spare mounts, new straps and such. It was always a very nice gesture.
    From a cost/gain perspective it strikes me as a no brainer, why did they stop?

    If you give a mouse a cookie...

    Why did he stop giving you freebies with little orders? Maybe something to do with the fact that more casual riders are giving the cheapo lights a go, which is eating into his profits. Who knows, he may be scraping by just to pay his employees. Seems like a no brainer to cut out frivolous expenses that someone may or may not appreciate. Me personally, I really don't care about getting several free random mounts (as I would in the past with Dinotte). If I needed a mount, I would ask for the mount I needed. I don't need more crap that is eventually going to go into a landfill, and that costs someone else money. It's nice, but not all of us need or want a drawer full of random mounts I will never use.

    I have no problem paying reasonable prices for something that I need/want, from a company that is willing to be there for me. Buy something from China, then good luck with any customer service. Or better yet, buy something for half the price from China, then just throw it away when there is something wrong with it, cause you can afford to and won't feel bad about doing so, right? Not wasteful at all...

    I completely understand that it is frustrating to feel like you're in the dark with what a company is offering, especially when you love the company and their products. Like said earlier, you don't know you want something until you know it exists (ask Steve Jobs about that one). So it is a mystery to me why Dinotte doesn't offer up everything they make that is either profitable, or could keep or attract new customers on their website, or on MTBR.
    I am personally frustrated, cause I feel like they could be shooting themselves in the foot by not letting us all know what we can BUY from them, and make it easy.

    I love Dinotte, and really want them to succeed. However, I just can't realistically see them around five years from now, or many of the other light-only companies out there. Magicshine and the other cheap variants are just too good for too cheap. I see people switching over to them all the time locally, and have even promoted the cheap lights before. Cause lets face it, not everyone who enjoys cycling is as well off as a lot of people in these forums.

    There have been several instances when I have riding buddies who want to enjoy their passion during the dark months, but simply can not afford >$300 for a light to do so. So then a realistic option for them is an $85 light that is actually quite good. Again I've even promoted it to some of my riding group. Cause to be honest, my desire to see them get to enjoy riding at night, and for me to get to enjoy riding with them, far outweighs my desire to see them spend their money on a different company. Because they wouldn't, and then they would miss so many great riding opportunities (life is short), and the quality companies wouldn't get their money anyways if they couldn't afford to spend it.
    However, with those more inclined to spend money cause they can, I surely point them towards the higher quality brands who are actually committed to us.

    Like I say, I'm just as frustrated with Dinotte as you guys, because I wan't to buy what they make, but it's kind of hard when I don't even know what they are offering. I'm also frustrated because I really want them to succeed, and feel they could do more to see that they do stay afloat.

    However, I can guarantee there is no one out there who wants them to succeed more than Rob and everyone else at Dinotte. So I can only hope that they are doing the things they are for a reason, and that there is a method to their madness.

    Let's just hope that the Magicshine/Cheap Chinese light madness doesn't kill off all these great light manufacturers.

  18. #43
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    I think the US light companies have responded to the MS lights. They used to ask $400-500 for 120 lumens. Many quality companies have responded with lights using latest technology, they tell you what LED is in the light, they provide a warranty, the prices are competitive. Look at the 2011 lights shootout. When I wanted to purchase lights for the first time in summer 2009, I checked out the lights shootout and there was no way I was going to shell out that much money for a light.

    My ride, though, is a commute where the loss of lighting will not cause me injury; I can easily apply brakes and walk. Riding downhill nearly out of control, in the way dark, on trail that can hurt you if you suddenly couldn't see is a different matter.

    I would have been all over a Dinotte XML-3, except that I really want a torch rather than wires and a battery pack and the lack of rain has yet to destroy my $25 torches.

  19. #44
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    A lot of that price decrease is just cost of the technology decreasing. The other part is that there is a wide variance in battery packs because of battery cell quality, cost and pack construction. We've seen the results of that too.

    But, yes, competition has brought the cost down just not the whole story.

    J.

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