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Thread: 800L or Wilma

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    800L or Wilma

    I have a 600L and a 400L on my helmet. I'm thinking about going to either the 800L on the bars and the 600L on the helmet or just changing out the 600L on the bars or an 800L.

    Looks like the 800L is about the same light output in beam shots and measurements as the Wilma.

    What should I do? Need to decide shortly, we will start riding in about 3 weeks when the snow melts and the salt gets washed off the road.

    J.

  2. #2
    BBW
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    I have had DiNotte and they are excellent. You have many chargers and batteries from therm so I would stay with them.
    Now, the Wilma (especially with the 18 degree lens kick arse) its in another category.
    I run 2 Lupines after running DiNottes... Like the color of Lupine better than the blueish DiNotte

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    Here's the catch, according to the review here, the 800L comes in the light meter at 55 lux, the Wilma at 56 so that difference is marginal. The 800L is claimed at 800 lumens and the Wilma at 960. They both are supposed to have a 18 degree beam spread.

    The beamshots I've seen make them look almost identical. That said, beam shots are not real world so I'm looking for real world comment on them.

    Which Dinotte's did you have?

    J.

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    Most of the new 4 Led systems are quoted as 960 lumen, for example Hope, Exposure & Lupine all say 960.

    Each single Led that they use will give about 240 lumen, so 4 would be 960.

    Exept in the real world you lose 10% of the light in the optic and each of those lights have 4 optics.

    Dinotte are just being honest and all quad LED lights should give around 800 lumen, give or take a bit depening on optic quality or beam pattern.

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    got it. so there would be little to no difference between wilma and 800L. so, if I already have dinotte stuff, there is really no advantage whatsoever to going to the wilma.

    my thought is that my 400L on the helmet and the 800L on the bars should be great for pretty much anything I see on the trail and also for on the road with my road bike.

    Then my son wants to start riding with me at night. so if I set him up with my 600L and a tail light, when the two of us are riding, there ought to be more than enough light for both of us.

    J.

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    As long as you are happy with the blueish tint from the Dinotte, then just think of the money that you have saved and stay with them. At least they are honest.

    I have just built a quad Led system and I could tell everyone that it's 960 lumen but it isn't it's 800 ish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yetibetty
    As long as you are happy with the blueish tint from the Dinotte, then just think of the money that you have saved and stay with them. At least they are honest.

    I have just built a quad Led system and I could tell everyone that it's 960 lumen but it isn't it's 800 ish.
    Who's not being honest...?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    Here's the catch, according to the review here, the 800L comes in the light meter at 55 lux, the Wilma at 56 so that difference is marginal. The 800L is claimed at 800 lumens and the Wilma at 960. They both are supposed to have a 18 degree beam spread.

    The beamshots I've seen make them look almost identical. That said, beam shots are not real world so I'm looking for real world comment on them.

    Which Dinotte's did you have?

    J.
    I had the 200L and 600L in spot and wide version. The blueish color is not my favorite, it doesn't have the contrast of warmer tints. The Wilma comes with 15 degree lens FYI, I got the 18 degree as an extra. The color of the Wilma beam is the best and also the heat dissipation is better on the Wilma than Dinotte but... its more $$$

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    No good Lupine

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd@gretnabikes
    Who's not being honest...?
    Lupine's are liars. Both Betty and Wilma inflated by 60% the amount of light given. Betty has 982 lumens, Wilma 566 lumens. Measured in the professional lab.

    Please look also to the runtime.
    "Wilma 5" 3hours @ 17W = 3h*17W= 51 Wh, but the real capacity of the batterypack is over 30% less (5Ah*7,2V=36Wh minus the losses, for example on the connectors).
    This means over 30% less light than the state. The same is true with Betty.

    Go for Dinotte's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by czarny_kruk
    Lupine's are liars. Both Betty and Wilma inflated by 60% the amount of light given. Betty has 982 lumens, Wilma 566 lumens. Measured in the professional lab.

    Please look also to the runtime.
    "Wilma 5" 3hours @ 17W = 3h*17W= 51 Wh, but the real capacity of the batterypack is over 30% less (5Ah*7,2V=36Wh minus the losses, for example on the connectors).
    This means over 30% less light than the state. The same is true with Betty.

    Go for Dinotte's.
    Wow, those are some pretty bold statements...

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    I would not have said it quite that way, t but I think he is referring to Lupine and others using the number as the power into the led under ideal circumstances, before the optics as the light produced when in reality, the user really cares about the actual light that exits the optics (which would be less).

    I would agree with the notion that the light out of the optics is what is important, anything before that is pretty much to generate marketing hype and a less useful spec.

    J.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by czarny_kruk
    Lupine's are liars. Both Betty and Wilma inflated by 60% the amount of light given. Betty has 982 lumens, Wilma 566 lumens. Measured in the professional lab.

    Please look also to the runtime.
    "Wilma 5" 3hours @ 17W = 3h*17W= 51 Wh, but the real capacity of the batterypack is over 30% less (5Ah*7,2V=36Wh minus the losses, for example on the connectors).
    This means over 30% less light than the state. The same is true with Betty.

    Go for Dinotte's.
    Another one of those "hate something even if it's the best"
    Measure whatever you want and use the numbers that you want, Lupine is on of the best light out there for many reasons that I'm not even going to start writing because I don't care. I'm happy with the both of them I have

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    Agreed that Lupine is one of the best. No doubt. I think the question in specification is what the issue is.

    I'm very tempted to buy one of the Wilmas.

    J.

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    I think it's official. You can't mention Lupine on mtbr without getting hated on...

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    Go with the Dinotte; they don't whine when you point out simple facts about their lights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd@gretnabikes
    I think it's official. You can't mention Lupine on mtbr without getting hated on...
    Yeap, this has become a DIY place. People don't talk about good lights anymore... the world is coming to an end
    I will keep the Lupine route though, works for me

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd@gretnabikes
    I think it's official. You can't mention Lupine on mtbr without getting hated on...
    No not at all, I was having a play with one the other day in a bike shop and you do get quality conectors, well made housing and above all for me a nice tint... etc...

    Just pointing out that a quad, single die LED system will give OUT around 800/850 lumen and that is why the Dinnote is called the 800L.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBW
    Yeap, this has become a DIY place. People don't talk about good lights anymore... the world is coming to an end
    I will keep the Lupine route though, works for me
    Yes it is funny how much this forum has changed this last year. DIY is great if you enjoy the work and have the time and skills. But for me I don't think I would enjoy the work and don't have any free time so DIY for me is not an option. After all time is money and it takes time to build your own light and if you were to pay yourself for the hours you put in then a DIY project would get expensive. But those who enjoy DIY probably don't consider building a light work like I would. BTW I am still loving my Lupines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    I have a 600L and a 400L on my helmet. I'm thinking about going to either the 800L on the bars and the 600L on the helmet or just changing out the 600L on the bars or an 800L.

    Looks like the 800L is about the same light output in beam shots and measurements as the Wilma.

    What should I do? Need to decide shortly, we will start riding in about 3 weeks when the snow melts and the salt gets washed off the road.

    J.
    Let's see: you already have a decent set of lights. Are you not happy with them? Why the rush?
    If you look around these forums you'll see what all the DIYers out there are currently raving about:
    1. 4x/8x/12x/etc XPE configurations (because of the XPE's small size)
    2. Dual/Tri/Quad/etc MCE/P7 configs with boom and other "exotic" reflectors(!)
    So you can expect companies like Lupine and Dinotte to follow suit: they'll all have lights like these in the next 3-5 years. I believe there's gonna be another revolution soon; the first one happened when LEDs first became bright enough for serious bike trashing (~200 lumens per die), that's what you can buy today generally in the 200-400$ range. These lights are typically between 400-800 lumens (real output or whatever), and are bright enough for pretty much any kind of use (including fast DH).
    I think the next era is going to be characterized by the following types:
    1. Lights with similar brightness and power consumption, but half the size (or even less) ideal for helmet mounting
    2. Lights with 1/2/3/4... MCE/P7 chips for unprecedented brightness
    3. Lights with maybe a single P7 but using special reflectors to fine-tune the beam shape (early birds of this line are the Lupine Tesla and the L&M Seca)
    4. Lights with whatever emitter but with custom reflectors and power sources: eg. dyno-powered lights.
    And I don't even know what's in the labs of the LED factories - LEDs with better lumen/watt ratio? Even smaller size? Or both?

    Anyway, the point is, if you currently have "first generation" lights today, I see no reason for buying some more just to get more light. I don't think the investment would be worth it. Why not wait until the second generation starts to appear, then you can decide whether you'll buy the first gen at a reduced price, or pay for novelty. Things usually get interesting in the autumn, when most companies release their new lights...

    Just my 0.02$ though.

  20. #20
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    wow - why so much hate towards Lupine? I haven't been on the light forum in a while but decided to stop by since I've also been thinking about getting a Wilma.

    I dunno - I have two Lupine's which I use 3-4 times a week for night rides and absolutely love them. a friend of mine just got a wilma and it's a super sweet light. if I got a Wilma I could finally retire my Edison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by czarny_kruk
    Lupine's are liars........Go for Dinotte's.

    Lupine's what are liars? Go for Dinotte's what?

    Are you using the possessive form for a particular reason?

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    This late in the season, I'd wait until Fall when the new lights come out. As the man said, you have already some pretty good light, and daylight saving starts this weekend.

    On another point, if you are happy w/ Dinotte, just for simplicity's sake, stick w/ Dinotte. Same charger,same batteries for all - simplify your life. Never used a Lupine. I'm sure that they are fine lights, but so are Dinottes.

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    That may be the ticket. I was just looking at sunset times so that may make sense. That said, you can get some incredible deals right now. I'm pretty close to having all the light I want - I think that 800 lumens with my 400L will probably do it.

    J.

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    For the record...waiting to buy lights in the fall is the worst idea I've ever heard. As soon as the days start to shorten, EVERYONE decides it's time to buy new lights. Best time to buy lights is in the middle of the winter. No one is riding due to bad weather. Good deals can be had because the manufactures are already planning their next upgrades and are trying to get rid of their over-stock.
    Now back to the original subject:

    JohnJ80 wrote:
    I have a 600L and a 400L on my helmet. I'm thinking about going to either the 800L on the bars and the 600L on the helmet or just changing out the 600L on the bars or an 800L.

    Looks like the 800L is about the same light output in beam shots and measurements as the Wilma.

    What should I do? Need to decide shortly, we will start riding in about 3 weeks when the snow melts and the salt gets washed off the road.
    From your comment it looks as though you are looking to upgrade to a brighter helmet light. The 600L as you know makes a mighty fine bar light. Before buying something else I would suggest putting the 400L on the bars ( one wide, one narrow optic ) and try using the 600L on the helmet to see if you like it. I too own a 600L but I never did like how it worked on the helmet. My opinion was that the beam caused too much glare for helmet use. Not to mention that there is still not enough throw from the 600L to make it a noteworthy helmet light. Nevertheless, your opinion might differ. TRY before BUY I say.
    If your opinion turns out to be similar to mine then I suggest keeping the 600L on the bars and then search out a decent helmet light. Since the Dinotte 800L is designed to be a bar lamp I think it best to look outside the Dinotte line if looking for a brighter helmet lamp.
    Of all the light systems I've seen out there I think the Lupine Tesla is probably one of the best suited for helmet use. This is also the opinion of James on GearReview.com . It is very bright with lots of throw. From the beam photos I've seen I'm very impressed with the Tesla. This is not to say that the Betty wouldn't work as well. The Tesla is a more compact package and is also not as over-priced ( IMO ) as the other Lupines. Lastly, I'd also recommend the lamp that I bought for my helmet to compliment my 600L bar mounted. It is the Lumen8R ( quad Cree R-2 ) from HIDtech. This is nice compact Aussie made light system that is tailor-made for helmet use. Output is in the 800-900lm range ( actual output ) ( IMO ). It also throws a good 200+ft. It is also very well priced for such a bright light. For more info on the Lumen8R you can check out the review I did a while back . This is the link > Review: HIDTechnologies-Lumen8r-LED Quad Lighting System Note: prices on the HIDTech site are in AUD. You will need to convert to compare prices. ( *edit* OMG....the current AUD to USD currency conversion makes buying the LM8R a steal! Just keep in mind if you decide on the LM8R you have shipping fees and more than likely a conversion fee from your credit card company. Still, it beats anything else out there that I know of price wise. )
    Last edited by Cat-man-do; 03-06-2009 at 02:40 PM.

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    Errrmmmm get the PhotonMax Extreme is it, 1350lumens for $369 I think I saw it as, 2 x MC-E's and a R2 to boost the range, only downside is I think the switch is on the battery so bike mounted only

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    This is interesting to me. Anyone have any pics that show the size of the battery or what it looks like on the bike? How about beam shots or photos?

    J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    This is interesting to me. Anyone have any pics that show the size of the battery or what it looks like on the bike? How about beam shots or photos?

    J.
    Someone just commented about this on another thread. I think the answer was about the size of a Red Bull can for the battery itself. Including the neoprene outer covering it is the size of a coke can. Too bad the makers of the Photon Max didn't have the forethought to offer a remote wired switch. It would have doubled their sales. Not to mention that I might have bought one if they did. The price certainly is right and it is one freakingly bright light.

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    Do you mean a remote switch like the Lupine Betty uses? A switch that you would have to attach to the bars separately from the light?

    J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    Do you mean a remote switch like the Lupine Betty uses? A switch that you would have to attach to the bars separately from the light?

    J.
    Yes...I suppose that is a good example. The Kentro is another. I can't see how anyone could be happy with a light that has the switch on the battery, regardless of how bright it is. With four light levels, changing modes on the fly with the switch on the battery would have to be difficult to say the least. Functionality is just as important to me as quality/quantity of light. A nice remote switch with led feedback ( for mode setting ) would go a long way to improve the systems that have the electronics on the battery. ( even if it cost a little more )

  30. #30
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    I agree that the switch on the battery is a bad idea. The only way I differ with you is that I don't want to see another wire that I have to attach somewhere. I want the switch to be on the light. Best way I have seen is the two switch method that Dinotte uses - one switch is the force to high beam, the other is the one that cycles through levels. Second best is to have the single switch on the light that cycles through the modes.

    J.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    Do you mean a remote switch like the Lupine Betty uses? A switch that you would have to attach to the bars separately from the light?

    J.
    Thread describing the Extreme with pics:
    Photon Max Extreme (1,350 lumens) from NiteFlux
    Maverick Durance Ano-DUC32/C KING/XTR
    Mav ML8 Ano-DUC32/X0
    Mav ML8-DUC32/I9/XTR
    09 Spec. Demo-Totem-Ti DHX
    Norco Team DH

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80
    got it. so there would be little to no difference between wilma and 800L. so, if I already have dinotte stuff, there is really no advantage whatsoever to going to the wilma.

    my thought is that my 400L on the helmet and the 800L on the bars should be great for pretty much anything I see on the trail and also for on the road with my road bike.

    Then my son wants to start riding with me at night. so if I set him up with my 600L and a tail light, when the two of us are riding, there ought to be more than enough light for both of us.

    J.
    I have the 800 bar/400 helmet, did a great ride tonight with it and is just the right amount of light for completely comfortable visibility...............it is the ideal balance of price/weight/run time/light spill and brightness..............I can't imagine anyone not being able to ride anything they want with this setup..........i had the 600l which is bright, but the little boost of the 800l is really nice........


    the lupines are nice, and yes they do report their brightness for ideal conditions/temperature........................which is why 960 lumens is 56 lux and 800 lumens is 55 lux.............there is absolutely no way anyone can see the difference b/n 55 and 56 lux..............they are both great lights and great brands, I am sure any rider could be completely happy with either system......if you are already vested in dinotte stuff, seems crazy to go lupine since dinotte stuff is so interchangeable.........


    I def find myself turning my 800l in a little to get the beam right in the middle of my line, with lupine you don't have this option.............very fast to get replacement parts/accesories from dinotte as they are in usa, lupine is imported, maybe they keep a good stock maybe not, but if they don't have somethnig you need, has to come a long way to get to you.......

    dinottes weight and lumen/dollar is nearly impossible to beat............

    and lastly, dinotte has the most bad ass taillight on the planet, I hate to even ponder how many times that taillight(200l or 400l red) has saved my life, without me even knowing it, the fact that they even conceived and brought to market such a revolutionary taillight has earned trememdous customer loyalty from me...............I quite literally could owe them my life and don't even know it..............

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    Quote Originally Posted by czarny_kruk
    Lupine's are liars.
    Some german "independent" guys had a lot of lights measured in professional lab by professionals.
    So, seen in an objective way, it seems to be true that the values of the specs are quite different from the output in the lab

    See here: http://www.mtb-news.de/forum/showthread.php?p=4320770 (page 7) Test was done around Dec. 2007. It uses a Ulbricht sphere, which seems to be the best way for a comparison, as lumen will be compared. And not lux, as in the MTBR charts.

    According to this:

    Lupine Betty: 903 lumen
    Lupine Edison: 522 lumen
    Lupine Wilma: 477/580 lumen

    However, I point out the Dinottes has not been measured in that test. I assume that very likely their true output will not match the specs by far as well.

    I own and ride a Lupine Tesla, BTW.

    regards
    Last edited by CHnuschti; 03-17-2009 at 12:02 PM.

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