2014 Mtbr Lights Shootout

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  • 11-06-2013
    RojoRacing53
    Waiting for gloworm reviews :)
  • 11-06-2013
    indebt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I will recheck it. I think it's related to heat. These light heads are so small compared to the 4500 lumen claims that they're too bright for the heatsinking available. We take readings at the the 30 second mark and our fan was tiny.

    fc

    With the ever increasing outputs in these tiny lamp heads, do you think it may be worth re-visiting the time frame the measurements are taken to achieve that products max output? Maybe the ten or fifteen second mark just to help rule out that some power houses are stepping down due to heat before the measurements are taken. The Olympia is also one that had been discussed as been majorly over stated, and that there should have been some decent improvement over last years model.

    I understand by doing this it could alleviate motivation for these company's to improve their heat sinking;)
  • 11-06-2013
    RojoRacing53
    When are we going to get water cooled headlamps? Air cooling is so last century.
  • 11-06-2013
    jkirkpatri
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RojoRacing53 View Post
    Waiting for gloworm reviews :)

    Same here!
  • 11-06-2013
    francois
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    With the ever increasing outputs in these tiny lamp heads, do you think it may be worth re-visiting the time frame the measurements are taken to achieve that products max output? Maybe the ten or fifteen second mark just to help rule out that some power houses are stepping down due to heat before the measurements are taken. The Olympia is also one that had been discussed as been majorly over stated, and that there should have been some decent improvement over last years model.

    I understand by doing this it could alleviate motivation for these company's to improve their heat sinking;)

    We're using the 30 second mark since that is the FL1 standard of measurement for lumen output for flashlights. FL1 is becoming widely adopted now by light manufacturers. Here are some excerpts:
    http://www.streamlight.com/Documents/ansi/ansi-pres.pdf

    Bot on the review of each light, we have a 3 minute graph showing the lumen output, so one can see the output at any point within the first 3 minutes.
  • 11-06-2013
    francois
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jkirkpatri View Post
    Same here!

    They sent me three lights a few weeks ago. This week, they sent me three new lights of the same models since they made some 'significant' improvements.

    fc
  • 11-06-2013
    francois
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fourtrax View Post
    Some graphs:

    Thank you!!!!!
  • 11-06-2013
    varider
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    For XC riding this year... I would say 1200-1400 lumens. That could be one 1200 lumen light on the bar or 700 on bar and 700 on the helmet.

    Lumens get cheaper each year so I tend to ratchet up a little every year.

    Generally:

    - the faster you go, the more lumens you need so you don't outrun your light.

    - the more people you ride with, the more lumens you need. That's because someone will have a super bright light and your eyes will adjust to their bright light.

    What do others think?

    fc

    That sounds good to me. I think it's becoming more about beam shape than just pure lumens, because we have reached a point where all the lights put out enough light. If you have a light that puts 2000 lumens into a hotspot size of basketball it doesn't do you any good. You need some light between the tire and the hotspot, and some side-spill to see where you going. There is a lot of personal preference that comes into this as well. Some love the super-spot lights, where I prefer a floodier even beam. Some of the manufacturers are catching on to this, and providing different optics choices.
  • 11-06-2013
    indebt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    We're using the 30 second mark since that is the FL1 standard of measurement for lumen output for flashlights. FL1 is becoming widely adopted now by light manufacturers. Here are some excerpts:
    http://www.streamlight.com/Documents/ansi/ansi-pres.pdf

    Bot on the review of each light, we have a 3 minute graph showing the lumen output, so one can see the output at any point within the first 3 minutes.

    Does that three minute graph start when the light is first turned on,,,, or at the thirty second mark?
  • 11-06-2013
    ziscwg
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by varider View Post
    That sounds good to me. I think it's becoming more about beam shape than just pure lumens, because we have reached a point where all the lights put out enough light. If you have a light that puts 2000 lumens into a hotspot size of basketball it doesn't do you any good. You need some light between the tire and the hotspot, and some side-spill to see where you going. There is a lot of personal preference that comes into this as well. Some love the super-spot lights, where I prefer a floodier even beam. Some of the manufacturers are catching on to this, and providing different optics choices.

    I just got the Lezyne Deca drive (800 lm) and it has plenty of light output on roads and fire roads.

    I totally agree that the beam pattern is more of a factor now. Running that light at higher light output would just be a waste of battery power.

    One thing I noticed on my Deca light is the cover lens appears to be replaceable. This has me thinking, "Can the cover lens be swapped to change the beam pattern to your liking?"
  • 11-06-2013
    pabcor
    Good job!
  • 11-06-2013
    Fourtrax
    3 Attachment(s)
    Updated the graphs with more info and larger.

    Attachment 844824Attachment 844825Attachment 844826
  • 11-06-2013
    Gharddog03
    Sweet. Thanks fourtrax!
  • 11-06-2013
    steelhmr
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Phase 1 is here:

    2014 Mtbr Bike Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    It is not perfect so please look it over and let me know about comments and feedback. I wanted to get it out as soon as the time changed.

    I'm testing a dozen more lights this week to add to the shootout for Phase 2. And I'll shoot a few videos to select my top picks.


    Here's the excel spreadsheet doc. Please make me some graphs that show the data better.

    claimed vs actual lumen

    lumen per dollar

    lumen per gram

    etc.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0i...it?usp=sharing

    How about some comparisons with lux instead of lumens? $/lux, lux/gram, etc. I copied this from another thread:

    Remember when "lux" was supposed to be more important than "lumens"? Compare the lux & lumens of the Gemini Olympia vs the Seca Race:

    Lumens: 1477 vs 2022 (Seca Race has 36.9% more lumens)
    Lux: 153 vs 170 (Seca Race has 11.1% more lux)
    $/Lux: 1.96 vs 2.94 (Seca Race costs 50% more $ per lux)
  • 11-06-2013
    francois
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by steelhmr View Post
    How about some comparisons with lux instead of lumens? $/lux, lux/gram, etc. I copied this from another thread:

    Remember when "lux" was supposed to be more important than "lumens"? Compare the lux & lumens of the Gemini Olympia vs the Seca Race:

    Lumens: 1477 vs 2022 (Seca Race has 36.9% more lumens)
    Lux: 153 vs 170 (Seca Race has 11.1% more lux)
    $/Lux: 1.96 vs 2.94 (Seca Race costs 50% more $ per lux)

    Lux is really not that relevant. It measures light output at a specific spot in the beam pattern.

    We do something called Mtbr Lux which is the ambient lux reading of a light meter when the light is pointed at the ceiling in a controlled room. This number is really easy for us to get but it is only relevant to us for the basis of comparison. We used this a lot when we didn't have access to a $20,000 machine that measures lumens, an integrating sphere.

    An integrating sphere measures lumens, which is the total output of a bike light. It measures by capturing all the light from a light and bouncing it on a sphere and collecting the light output. So lumens is the end all, be all for measuring light output.

    fc
  • 11-06-2013
    francois
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Fourtrax View Post
    Updated the graphs with more info and larger.

    Can I get a hell ya.

    fc
  • 11-06-2013
    francois
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    Does that three minute graph start when the light is first turned on,,,, or at the thirty second mark?

    It starts when the light is turned on, or second or two before the light is turned on.

    fc
  • 11-06-2013
    androgen
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Lux is really not that relevant. It measures light output at a specific spot in the beam pattern.

    We do something called Mtbr Lux which is the ambient lux reading of a light meter when the light is pointed at the ceiling in a controlled room. This number is really easy for us to get but it is only relevant to us for the basis of comparison. We used this a lot when we didn't have access to a $20,000 machine that measures lumens, an integrating sphere.

    An integrating sphere measures lumens, which is the total output of a bike light. It measures by capturing all the light from a light and bouncing it on a sphere and collecting the light output. So lumens is the end all, be all for measuring light output.

    fc

    Lumens ( when independently measured using an Integrating sphere ) are certainly a more useful metric than Lux.

    however Lux i think can also be useful for measuring the "throw" of a light.

    going by Lux alone is a good way to mislead the customer, but using Lux in addition to Lumens i think would be interesting and informative.

    while it can be argued that the Tunnel beam pattern shots already convey the information about "throw" of the light, they do not do so in a way that can be easily entered into an excel spreadsheet.
  • 11-06-2013
    geoff_tewierik
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    They sent me three lights a few weeks ago. This week, they sent me three new lights of the same models since they made some 'significant' improvements.

    I have the X1v1 for helmet and the X2v2 for the bar.

    Would love to see you include the 3 lights from a few weeks ago plus the 3 new lights to see the differences and whether it's worth upgrading.
  • 11-06-2013
    Gharddog03
    Francois, can you share your thoughts on the Duo and Olympia? Gemini seems to be a hot topic.:madmax:
  • 11-06-2013
    Gharddog03
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    The Seca is awesome but it just a tired design.

    X2. Awesome beam pattern though but it needs a revamp!
  • 11-06-2013
    indebt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by francois View Post
    It starts when the light is turned on, or second or two before the light is turned on.

    fc

    Thanx, good to know as it rules out my concern about the thirty second mark as graph will show a cool lamp head's output in the beginning. Cheers!!!
  • 11-06-2013
    francois
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by androgen View Post
    Lumens ( when independently measured using an Integrating sphere ) are certainly a more useful metric than Lux.

    however Lux i think can also be useful for measuring the "throw" of a light.

    going by Lux alone is a good way to mislead the customer, but using Lux in addition to Lumens i think would be interesting and informative.

    while it can be argued that the Tunnel beam pattern shots already convey the information about "throw" of the light, they do not do so in a way that can be easily entered into an excel spreadsheet.

    Good points. I think it's too much detail and not enough background and it's hard to be consistent. A light with a very focused beam pattern will be rewarded with a high lux number. But then, that's really not what we want for biking.

    In this FL1 document,
    http://www.streamlight.com/Documents/ansi/ansi-pres.pdf
    The standard measure for light throw is determined by the distance where one can get a reading of .25 lux at the center. Unfortunately, that lux number is too low for these modern lights and I'll have to go hundreds and hundreds of yards to get to that low a reading for the big lights.

    So, I'd say the photographs will be a better indicator of throw.
  • 11-06-2013
    John Serkaian
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ziscwg View Post
    I just got the Lezyne Deca drive (800 lm) and it has plenty of light output on roads and fire roads.

    I totally agree that the beam pattern is more of a factor now. Running that light at higher light output would just be a waste of battery power.

    One thing I noticed on my Deca light is the cover lens appears to be replaceable. This has me thinking, "Can the cover lens be swapped to change the beam pattern to your liking?"

    Have you compared the Mega Drive with the Deca Drive? Is the extra throw of the Mega Drive useful for road use or is the Deca Drive enough? Thanks.
  • 11-07-2013
    Fourtrax
    1 Attachment(s)
    Attached is the Excel file that I used to make the graphs.

    I added a couple columns to convert the run time and charge time to minutes in case anyone wanted to use them in a calculation. There were a couple I couldn't decipher from the original data (highlighted in yellow). I added a couple macros so you can re-sort the graphs.

    I can update as new lights are added.

    Attachment 845034