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2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.

142K views 569 replies 137 participants last post by  indebt 
#1 ·
I'm working on it now. I have a ton of lights and I'm getting a bunch more!!!

It will be broken up in a Commuter and High End category.

What do you guys want to see?

Here's some sneak peak photos.

- ok light
- very flat beam pattern light
- bright light :)

fc
 

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#86 ·
Great suggestions on the tail lights. Just to set up expectation, this is a second priority/delivery to all the headlight testing. So don't expect too much too soon.

Photographing tail lights is usually a lost cause. The light cannot be pointed at the camera and it can't be flashing. But videotaping at angles or when following can be promising. Doing it in daytime is a great suggestion too. I just need to find a video camera that doesn't adjust to the light output.

The $40k Integrating Sphere session might actually happen. Fyi, this device measures actual lumen output. Integrating sphere - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So it is a good way to decipher Actual lumen output vs. Claimed lumen output.

The lux testing I do in my room is actually a rudimentary Integrating Sphere. I measure the total bounced light from a light head. It'll be good to validate my numbers as well to see if there's value and consistency to it.

fc
 
#87 ·
You might be able to compare your room to the sphere and see how good the tracking is. If it's good, then just keep on doing what you do. that way all your reviews from the past are going to be comparable to the newest ones.

Photos or videos of the taillights straight on will not be representative of anything. The camera will saturate on the brightest parts and will bloom on the rest until it gets into the camera's dynamic range. I think the idea of showing what it looks like against a white wall in both profile and perpendicular would probably do it along with your (subjective) description of what you are seeing. The bloom against the side and perpendicular is going to give an excellent idea of the relative output and beam but yet be doable with your current video gear.

J.
 
#90 ·
Can't wait to see the 2012 lights shootout Francois. I wouldn't mind seeing cygolite join the shootout. When I first started night riding in the early 90's I bought a cygolite 30 watt halogen light and it was a good light and I still have it although I haven't used it in years. I charged the battery and the darned thing still lit up to my amazement. Didn't stay lit for too long though as that is one old battery pack. Still the cygolite still worked after near 20 years later.
 
#91 ·
I was able to check out the unfinished link. Great shots! I got the niterider minewt 600 and it looks good on your picture but with the human eye it doesn't look that bright. Also are the lights picture taken from a fresh fully charged light? I notice some of the lights I tested after about 10 minutes of use the light tends to dim and settle to a constant light output.
 
#92 ·
Personally I'm more excited about the 2nd light than the 3rd one. I mean the 2nd light wouldn't make a good mountain biking light (and this is mtbr.com to be fair) but it would make a great commuting light. Because of the smaller dynamic range of these cameras, the other thing is that usually it's not really completely dark off to the sides, the pic looks that way but I bet there's a little light.

And it looks like...it looks like a shaped beam you could aim to not hit people in the face. It looks...a *lot* like the Lumotec Cyo dynamo light. I would...well, *really*, *really* like to know what light the 2nd light is as I need a commuting light for my non-dynamo bike.... :D

The light in the 3rd pic looks bright, but -

1. I bet it is super bright - but cameras tend to overexaggerate this vs what you see. The problem isn't with the camera or the settings, but that your eyes adjust to how much light you're seeing and hey, maybe they finally made a light bright enough to see at night like it's day. I know if I ran both my Seca 900 and Seca 1400 at the same time it was pretty bright. But I've bought lights based on the pics and the differences aren't as dramatic as pics with constant settings make them out to be. I bet if you're standing there in person the 1st light is brighter (if you turn it on and let your eyes adjust) and the 3rd light is very bright but just not as dramatically brighter than the pic would suggest.

2. I notice the very bright, nearly washed out spot right in front of the camera on the ground...my Seca 1400 has that same thing, and I'm not a fan. I feel like my eyes adjust to that spot so I don't get as much out of the light as I'd like. This light looks like it also has a center beam so I don't believe it's the Seca...probably the Night Rider 3,000?
 
#93 ·
And it looks like...it looks like a shaped beam you could aim to not hit people in the face. It looks...a *lot* like the Lumotec Cyo dynamo light. I would...well, *really*, *really* like to know what light the 2nd light is as I need a commuting light for my non-dynamo bike.... :D

The light in the 3rd pic looks bright, but -

probably the Night Rider 3,000?
1. It's a Philips commuter light, beam shape is fine but it runs on AA batteries.. come on.
2. Yes
 
#97 ·
Oh wow, cool!

I am...trying to be helpful so if it comes across at to nitpicky let me know. But I'm confused by a paragraph the end of the article -

Also, the operation of four batteries (AA, LR6) is possible.Thanks to the battery level / charging indicator and the cyclist has his light reserves in view. Via USB port, the battery can easily power on and charge any computer.

Was it...run through google translate? "the operation of four batteries is possible" doesn't make much sense. I think the second sentence means the cyclist can see a charge indicator but "light reserves" is very weird working. The last sentence says you can power and charge a computer from the light which must be backwards, lol.

There were 2 things with this light I was curious about -
1. I assume this is true from the pics, but the light charges AA's inside the light, you just hook it up, no need to remove the batteries, right?
2. Some reviews have said that the status lights on the light itself are to bright and you can get light in your face from the light which is annoying. What do you think?

Maybe...maybe now that mtbr has reviewed it, someone will actually start selling it in the US...right now it's ebay or pay to have it shipped from Europe...

P.S. Love the pics. :D
 
#98 ·
Correct! That second page is from the German corporate site run through Google Translate. I'll fix it.

The battery is charged inside the light through a supplied USB charger.

The blue indicator lights are pretty dim and are not obtrusive at all. I'll confirm later.

The light will start selling at Amazon in about a week. QBP will have it mid October so most bike shops will be able to get it.

fc
 
#99 ·
Very cool! Francois, I do wonder if the makers intended for the lamp light to be thrown at the high forward angle at which it's shown in your yard shot. Seems to me that's plenty of glare in an oncoming eye. For purposes of demoing the lamp's brightness, it's appropriate, yet wouldn't the throw angle be pointed more sharply down, in practice, to prevent glare ... say, removing the shadow just in front of the rider?

If you want the Philips lamp sooner, the UPCs are these:

Silver: 8727900534917
Black: 8727900534948, 8727900534931

Cheapest prices are showing up on Amazon[dot]de and Google[dot]de[slash]prdhp

Retail, it's currently running about 90 EURO without shipping (about $125).
 
#101 ·
Very cool! Francois, I do wonder if the makers intended for the lamp light to be thrown at the high forward angle at which it's shown in your yard shot. Seems to me that's plenty of glare in an oncoming eye. For purposes of demoing the lamp's brightness, it's appropriate, yet wouldn't the throw angle be pointed more sharply down, in practice, to prevent glare ... say, removing the shadow just in front of the rider?
From my own experience with the Cyo, I would agree that in real use one should point it down further, with the top of the beam aimed at about waist level on another person.

For test photos here I think it work well though. :)

lol, I suppose now I'll end up taking back what I wrote earlier...one of the disadvantages of that kind of beam is the need to aim it lower if it's on the bars. I originally mounted my Cyo on the bars but found that either the hot part of the beam hit people in the eyes, or I had to aim it to low, so I remounted it on the brakes and it's better. I guess my point is that a lot of the shaped lights benefit from being lower than on the bars...though on the other hand who knows, maybe they somehow designed the beam different/better because they knew it would be on the bars (while the Cyo is actually meant to be mounted on the fork).

If you want the Philips lamp sooner, the UPCs are these:

Silver: 8727900534917
Black: 8727900534948, 8727900534931

Cheapest prices are showing up on Amazon[dot]de and Google[dot]de[slash]prdhp

Retail, it's currently running about 90 EURO without shipping (about $125).
Yeah, that's a lot less than they were selling it for on ebay, lol...
 
#108 ·
Yes, I have the Dynamo version and the ebike version. They are a little smaller so less light. the ebike version looks like it will take any voltage from 6-36v to connect to an ebike battery. I'll test them later.
 
#115 ·
It's a combination. We return some and keep some. We have night ride crew here in the office and we get to use/test them long term in more variable conditions. Now only if we had legal night riding here in the SF peninsula area... :skep:

fc
 
#117 · (Edited)
Most of the shooting, measuring is going to happen in the next three days. Wish me luck.

I have a TON of lights.

A bunch more are coming but they're still on a ship or getting soldered somewhere:
Jet Lites, Cateye, Gemini, Hope, Lezyne

Cygolite is just not in. I'll buy all the lights myself at REI.


I rode last night at with the Piko X on the bar and the Piko 3 on the helmet. Each light is 750 lumen. It was a new level of awesome. The lights disappeared in the riding experience and the two big beam patterns sang a duet like Sonny and Cher.

fc
 

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#129 ·
I can't wait

Most of the shooting, measuring is going to happen in the next three days. Wish me luck.

I have a TON of lights.

A bunch more are coming but they're still on a ship or getting soldered somewhere:
Jet Lites, Cateye, Gemini, Hope, Lezyne

Cygolite is just not in. I'll buy all the lights myself at REI.

I rode last night at with the Piko X on the bar and the Piko 3 on the helmet. Each light is 750 lumen. It was a new level of awesome. The lights disappeared in the riding experience and the two big beam patterns sang a duet like Sonny and Cher.

fc
My favorite is the light shoot out. Hey Francois what bike are you ridding?
 
#120 ·
I have been using Philips LED bikelight for commuting 7 month ago.
It is truely nice light because it has a cutoff-line to prevent oncoming traffic from blinding.
But if it is aimed to a bit higher from horizon, it is useful for MTB riding.
Of course, with helmet light is better, I know.
So I has an objection for Francis's opinion in the review.
>If there is a canopy, low hanging obstacles on the trail, those objects will be not visible with this light.

I do not have latest high end MTB light(they are a bit old) currently,
but I compared it with them.
All pictures were taken as EV2. You can check it the exif information in data.
That level is the same as this forum light illumination pictures.

I put them in other sight because of MTBR server's very slow response.
https://picasaweb.google.com/103014740887009889547/Bikelights
 
#122 ·
Good insight and great photos.

The problem with the Philips not shown in your photos or mine is you put a low hanging branch in front of the camera at about eye level, 10 or 20 feet in front, it won't be visible. The Philips has no upward light spill like all other lights.

This is easily solved of course by a complementary helmet light.

I got a better Philips photo last night per the suggestion of folks in the board. I aimed it a little lower to improve the spill of the lights on the grass.

fc
 

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#127 ·
If it's of use to you, Francois, I can tell you this much:

Peter White's site and the Dutch site mentioned above [can't link to it, but the domain is swhs[dot]xs4all[dot]nl] is where you will find the skinny on all things dynamo. Both sites are great, and Peter White's is just beautiful. Both are well worth a read.

peterwhitecycles[dot]com

Some of the most important dynamo hubs are at Starbike[dot]com.

Note that Shimano has, or is coming out with, a Deore XT DH-T785 centerlock dynamo hub. Beyond that, the Schmidt SON and the Supernovas 8 [660g] and S [400g] are among the most reputable hubs.

Exposure lights is rumored to be working on a bright dynamo light. We've talked about the Philips, and check White's site for the rest.
 
#128 ·
Please note:
You can't use normal AA batteries (alkaline or lithiums) with the Philips Safe Ride LED Battery Light.

The light can only work with NiMH rechargeable batteries because of the LED driver.
The voltage across the LEDs are 6.1 - 6.49V which means that the driver is a boost converter, and that the battery voltage must be less than LED voltage.
 
#131 ·
Pehaps prevent misscharging

Lithium batteries(same size as AA) cannot be used because they have much higher voltage than Ni-MH batteries.
Using them will damage the electoronics circuit.
But the reason normal(Alkaline) AA battery should not be used is other.

User Manual describes,

>In the event of non-rechargeable batteries being used, there is a risk of
>explosion should be attempt be made to recharge batteries.

So if you NEVER make a mistake of attempt charging them,
Alkaline batteries can be used, I think.
But you must open the battery lid by rotaing screws whenever you change batteries.
It will be a bit labor.
 
#132 ·
Real World Tests - Get out of the backyard.

Hello,

This is my first post in this forum. I have been night riding since the mid 90's. Back then I had a full water bottle dual beam NiteRider rig that I used in the Santa Monica Mountains north of Sunset, and it was bright enough to bring home two riders in front of me who lights had long since failed.

Today, I am looking at moving back to the bay area after living in Tahoe for the past three years and looking to replace my older NiteRider HID lights. I don't ride at night up here, too scary, you never know what can come out of the bushes at you. In the Berkeley hills , it was scary enough dodging dear, up here its the bears :)

Anyways, I have a lot of experience riding at night, both on road and off, and I demand a lot from my lights. For me, I feel safer at night riding my bike as I am actively involved in my visibility vs. the daytime where it is a more passive affair. For the most part, I use my lights for commuting and working out (road) which means riding 20 miles an hour in traffic, up to 50+ down S. Park or Claremont. I have been looking at reviews of lights and I know it is late, but here is what I like to see, and what I favor in a light.

1. Handle Bar Lights: For me, watching you show the light in your backyard means very little to me. It is out of context, I don't ride my bike in the backyard so watching you shine a light there doesn't really let me know how it performs on the street. Lights & Motion does it well. An underpass with distance and angle lines on the street. What I am looking for in a handlebar light that can keep the road in front of me lit up, regardless of the noise around me. On-coming traffic, traffic from behind, amber or white street lights, a little rain or fog, you can't get a sense of that from your back-yard. The problem is that every light looks better in total darkness. What I need to know is will the on-coming traffic headlights overpower my light and mask that pothole on the road or not? If I am coming down Claremont at 45+ will the light see the sewer covers in the middle of the road? This light needs a good throw, but it also needs a good flood, especially right in front of you. What good is it to pick-up an object 75 feet out in front of you, if it drops out of the spot into 20 feet in front of you? Makes it difficult to thread the needle, on road or off.

2. Headlight. This light has saved my life a couple of times. One time, I was crossing in intersection and a driver from the on-coming traffic lane decided to do a snap left to beat the traffic. Had it not been for my headlight flooding his windshield forcing him to hit the breaks hard, he would have taken me out. I am sure many of you have had something like this happen to you. While I like handlebar light have a good flood to it, I like the Headlight to be a good spot, one that doesn't get washed out by the headlight, and as long as I keep it focused on the road, it won't blind on-coming traffic. For example, the Vis-360 ranked well as a commuter light, but it is difficult to tell how much stopping power it has. I would like to see lights for helmets waived back and forth around a handlebar light so I get a feel for what it adds to the light. My problem is if you get a light that doesn't match the handlebar light well, then when looking to the side you have to wait for your eyes to adjust lower light level. What you want is that where ever you put your spot, your eyes are already adjusted.

3. Tail Light. Francois, you mentioned during your review of the Vis-180 that you wondered why it didn't just flash, it it went in and out. The reason is that a flashing light is harder for a driver to judge distance, especially in less than optimal conditions. I liked the 10-led NiteRider tail light, for more than a decade, nothing came close. I used it in always on mode and a battery one in flasher mode. What I want to see in a tail light is how far can you see it clearly? Put a car 100 feet away with the tail lights on, then put the tail light 10 feet to the right, how does it relate? I know you said you can't film it in flash mode, but you could put a whole bar of lights next to a car tail light (not braking) at different distances. Right away, we would be able to see the performance of the whole line in one shot. How about a shot during the day? I like riding with a flasher all the time. Remember, I live up at Tahoe and I have to compete with the lake for people's attention.

Lastly, what I would like to see is for you to match systems in different price ranges. If you had $200, what helmet, handlebar and tail light would you choose, What if you had $300, $700, you get the idea.

I am sorry if got carried away in my first post. I hope some of what I said was useful.

- Roger
 
#135 ·
I am going to redo this video, but you guys can take a peek at my ramblings.

edits:
- keep it under 5 minutes
- stop saying 'umm' all the time
- get a temperature gun to get a real reading.
- point all lights at the wall
- wear better shorts :)

fc

 
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