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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Correct. I don't want any post-processing. I may try shooting with another camera and in raw formats.

    fc
    fyi - for this advice at least -
    1) Turn ADL off.
    2) Set Contrast to Neutral or Low.

    This isn't post-processing, it's more...turning down and reducing the amount of in-camera processing that's being done. It's also something you would set these things on the camera and wouldn't require any work past that. (Not commenting on whether it's good or bad advice, just mentioning it's not time consuming "post-processing", and if you're looking for "natural" results turning ADL off would probably produce more consistent and natural results than leaving it on.)

  2. #302
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    Ok, so I just spent a couple hours and most of a pot of coffee reading this whole thread....awesome stuff!

    Thank you Francis for all the work that goes into this, I'm looking for a light setup as we speak for our weekly night ride and the timing couldn't be better...

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by lou2uanme View Post
    Lupine website says the Betty 2600 is 460 grams (1.01lbs) and has a 7.5 amp hour Li-Ion battery. Cost $930

    Niterider website says Pro 3000 is 812 grams (1.79lbs) and has a 11.6 amp hour Li-Ion battery.
    Cost $700.

    The Niterider Pro 3000 battery has 4.1 amp hours more capacity than the Betty. That is a lot more battery capacity for 3/4 pound more in weight.

    I'm not sure if the website info is accurate or if the weights include mounts or not but that is what is posted.


    I'd prefer to get a higher capacity battery and brighter light and at $230 cheaper....... 3 reasons to get the NR Pro 3000 over the lighter weight Betty 2600
    I prefer a light that I can upgrade and not have to throw away in a couple of years
    BBW. MS, RD

  4. #304
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    NR Pro 3000 is only $550 at PerformanceBikes.com. They are currently out of stock, but will get it in on the 1st of Nov. It makes it an amazing deal compared to Lupine.

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    Really looking forward to the review of the Exposure sixpack, as this is the one I recently ordered (haven't received it yet). Around when can we expect this review?

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    ....The "tape over the top half" trick only really works if you're blocking the direct line of sight to the emitter itself. So you probably need to block just a little more than the top half. Even better than just the tape would be a small mirror, or even smooth aluminum foil. This would have the effect of reflecting back a good portion of the light, and if the light is using a parabolic reflector, it would be re-directed out the bottom half, essentially what the Philips is doing, only with a much bigger reflector with a compound shape. But then again, considering the output lost doing this, you might be just as well off to cut the light's total power output (if possible) and re-aiming for slightly less throw. Just IMO.
    I created a small hood for my triple XPG and used a small bit of aluminum foil to line the underneath part. I've been using it this way ever since and I swear it puts some of the wasted light back down to where you need it.

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Yes, both these lights are the latest from Dinotte and received last week. We are still investigating as well. More shooting tonight Integrating Sphere on Friday.

    The 1200L is on par with other 1200 lumen lights. The XML-3 seems to be putting out about 1400 lumens.

    Treat these numbers as preliminary. Oct. 31 is the final deadline for all the photos and data.

    Here's a good page with historical data too:
    Bike Lights Shootout Light Meter Measurements | Mountain Bike Review

    fc


    Francois, Very good work on getting all those lights. I am a little disappointed that the Bikeray IV or III hasn't been included yet. I really would of liked to know how the output(s) compared to the MS MJ-872.

    I'm still shaking my head over the comparisons with the DiNotte 1300L+ and the XML 3. The photos that Randyharris did showed the 1300L+ ( up graded ) to throw further than the DiNotte XML3. Something not right here. One of you has to be wrong. If you had plans to buy a DiNotte this would certainly give you pause.

  7. #307
    fc
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    I just got back from the Integrating Sphere session. I have some good data but the big lights did not measure well. The sphere is small and the lights are mounted outside with an AC vent cooling the light. The hole in the sphere is 2 inches big and the light head had to fit in the space and a collar had to seal the hole. This worked very well for all self-contained lights.

    The Sphere was calibrated in the beginning and end of the session with a 379 lumen flashlight. We took lumen readings at startup, 1 minute, 2 and 3 minutes. Color temperature was recorded too.

    We have graphs of some lights lumen output througout their whole battery run time.

    photos:
    1) san jose to san luis obispo
    2) my hosts had good coffee
    3) this small integrating sphere would bounce the external light 10x around the sphere
    4) the light is measured by a sensor connected to a PC
    5) exposure toro during a measuring session
    6) an output graph of a good light on the left and another one on the right.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0049.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0051.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0066.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0070.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0079.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0085.jpg  


  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I created a small hood for my triple XPG and used a small bit of aluminum foil to line the underneath part. I've been using it this way ever since and I swear it puts some of the wasted light back down to where you need it.

    .
    Cat-man: Do you have a photo of your light + hood that you could post?

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I just got back from the Integrating Sphere session. I have some good data but the big lights did not measure well. The sphere is small and the lights are mounted outside with an AC vent cooling the light. The hole in the sphere is 2 inches big and the light head had to fit in the space and a collar had to seal the hole. This worked very well for all self-contained lights.

    The Sphere was calibrated in the beginning and end of the session with a 379 lumen flashlight. We took lumen readings at startup, 1 minute, 2 and 3 minutes. Color temperature was recorded too.

    We have graphs of some lights lumen output througout their whole battery run time.

    photos:
    1) san jose to san luis obispo
    2) my hosts had good coffee
    3) this small integrating sphere would bounce the external light 10x around the sphere
    4) the light is measured by a sensor connected to a PC
    5) exposure toro during a measuring session
    6) an output graph of a good light on the left and another one on the right.
    Very, very, cool. Thanks for taking the time to go to the sphere.

    Did you manage to get any of the new Lezyne lights to test? They look like they might be great commuter lights.

  10. #310
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    Good work, Francois!

    I would really ask that you still do your MTBR testing too. That is relatively calibrated and it is the only means we would really have of comparing to previously tested lights. I'm also concerned about the big lights as you mentioned.

    J.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I created a small hood for my triple XPG and used a small bit of aluminum foil to line the underneath part. I've been using it this way ever since and I swear it puts some of the wasted light back down to where you need it.





    Francois, Very good work on getting all those lights. I am a little disappointed that the Bikeray IV or III hasn't been included yet. I really would of liked to know how the output(s) compared to the MS MJ-872.

    I'm still shaking my head over the comparisons with the DiNotte 1300L+ and the XML 3. The photos that Randyharris did showed the 1300L+ ( up graded ) to throw further than the DiNotte XML3. Something not right here. One of you has to be wrong. If you had plans to buy a DiNotte this would certainly give you pause.
    I've considered a light hood before for different reasons (blinding other riders, pedistrians, drivers, etc.) and am interested in how much wased lite you reclaimed. Your opinion would be appreciated. Also is your fabricated reflector flat or formfitted to the lens shape?

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by joep7 View Post
    Really looking forward to the review of the Exposure sixpack, as this is the one I recently ordered (haven't received it yet). Around when can we expect this review?
    I too am waiting for this review, however I think I heard in one of the videos that this light takes forever to recharge. So for me, I output is just one deciding factor, durability, form factor, ease of use, all come into play.

    - Roger

  13. #313
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    Francois,

    Thanks for doing all these test -- they have been very helpful and I know that it is a lot of work.

    I have a question, for the Exposure lights, like the Diablo and Toro, the 2012 numbers are lower than the 2011 numbers. For example, the Diablo is listed as 59 lux for 2012 while last year it was listed as 63.

    Could this be due to the new Intelligent Thermal Management system that Exposure added this year. It is supposed to reduce the light level if the light heats up. During testing, was there any airflow over the lights?

    Thanks.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by a.k.a. View Post
    By the way, John, the D7000 currently has the highest dynamic-range sensor going in the 35mm format DSLR world -- coming in at 14 f-stops, according to DxOMark It is equipped with the same sensor as Nikon's top-of-the-line D9000. The only thing it ain't got is a full-frame 35mm sensor, like the D3 series.

    No need to hunt for a better camera, Francois. You have THE sweetest camera of the DSLR world.
    Nikon D9000? Did I miss something? Like a year? Is it 2012 already? Where am I?
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  15. #315
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    Francois,

    A note on Dinotte nomenclature:

    The dual quad XP-G light engine is designated as the 1200L Plus. The 1200L is an older model.
    The new XP-G model of the 400 (which I assume is the one you are testing) is designated as the 400L Plus. The 400L is an older model.
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  16. #316
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Maximus View Post
    Francois,

    A note on Dinotte nomenclature:

    The dual quad XP-G light engine is designated as the 1200L Plus. The 1200L is an older model.
    The new XP-G model of the 400 (which I assume is the one you are testing) is designated as the 400L Plus. The 400L is an older model.
    I'll fix my descriptions. I have the latest ones I'm sure.

    fc

  17. #317
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by gocycling View Post
    Francois,

    Thanks for doing all these test -- they have been very helpful and I know that it is a lot of work.

    I have a question, for the Exposure lights, like the Diablo and Toro, the 2012 numbers are lower than the 2011 numbers. For example, the Diablo is listed as 59 lux for 2012 while last year it was listed as 63.

    Could this be due to the new Intelligent Thermal Management system that Exposure added this year. It is supposed to reduce the light level if the light heats up. During testing, was there any airflow over the lights?

    Thanks.
    Wow, that makes sense. I'll to Exposure about this. Maybe it's too intelligent

    The lights in the Mtbr Lux Measurement are measured within 3 seconds of turning them on.

    At the lumens measurement in SLO, we had an air conditioning duct pointed at the light during the 3 minute test.

    fc

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Huston View Post
    I too am waiting for this review, however I think I heard in one of the videos that this light takes forever to recharge. So for me, I output is just one deciding factor, durability, form factor, ease of use, all come into play.

    - Roger
    It take's 24 hours to charge the six pack unless Exposure made a change for 2012.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Wow, that makes sense. I'll to Exposure about this. Maybe it's too intelligent

    The lights in the Mtbr Lux Measurement are measured within 3 seconds of turning them on.

    At the lumens measurement in SLO, we had an air conditioning duct pointed at the light during the 3 minute test.

    fc
    Thanks Francois. Given that the 2011 Diablo is rated at 900 lumens and the 2012 is rated at 975 lumens, I'm sure that Exposure would be interested in what happened :-) (BTW, I have the 2011 Diablo and find, at you did, that it really is a great light).

    -w

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    But, as you note, that looks the Exposure Diablo comes in at about where the Piko 3 does which is 750 lumens. I thought that Exposure bumped up the diablo by 30% from last year to this year - which would account for it being 900 some lumens. So, Francois - are your numbers wrong, get some lights mixed up with results or is the Diablo really only a 750 lumen light? I'm confused.

    J.

  21. #321
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    Perhaps this shootout has become so important to the industry where a more precise lux measurement test is in order for 2013?
    Last edited by RTM; 10-17-2011 at 07:38 AM.

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by gocycling View Post
    Thanks Francois. Given that the 2011 Diablo is rated at 900 lumens and the 2012 is rated at 975 lumens, I'm sure that Exposure would be interested in what happened :-) (BTW, I have the 2011 Diablo and find, at you did, that it really is a great light).

    -w
    We have to keep in mind that 975/900 is only an 8% increase.
    Aside from the fact that you'd never notice the difference between 900 and 975 from identical optics, CREE also states that they "maintain a tolerance of +/-7% on flux and power measurements..." So, while odd, the discrepancy is certainly not out of the realm of possibility. Any number of other factors could have also contributed to the lower measurement this year. JFWIW

  23. #323
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    Allo Fracois!

    I see some flashlight type lights are included this year. I would humbly recommend the Zebralight SC600 for the comparison. It is not a true bike light, but it can do a sustained 500lm for 2 hrs, with a 750 lm turbo mode for staring down mountain lions. The beam pattern is wonderful for a helmet light. I did most of my summer pre-dawn rides with this diminutive light zip-tied to the top of my helmet. After the ride, I snipped it off and dropped it in my pocket, for use at my job the rest of the day. As an all-around light it is an amazing value. Well, as long as you already have some 18650 cells and a charger around.

    gerG
    ...uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill ...

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    I've considered a light hood before for different reasons (blinding other riders, pedistrians, drivers, etc.) and am interested in how much wasted lite you reclaimed. Your opinion would be appreciated. Also is your fabricated reflector flat or form-fitted to the lens shape?
    Basically mine is made from cut - thin cardboard which I then covered with electrical tape to repeal moisture.. it is held on using electrical tape as well. The light is a K-Lite 3-XPG R5 which is sold on-line from Ozzie-land. The hood works very well and makes the mid-mode much more usable. Some of the light which normally would go up into the trees is reflected down to the ground. Next year I will try to make the upper black rim around optic reflective as well. The way I figure it every little bit helps.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-lighthood.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-lighthood1.jpg  


  25. #325
    fc
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    I have soooo much data that my Ipad is going to explode

    I'll start releasing some stuff on this thread today. I'd like you guys to help me analyze it and help me draw som conclusions and parameters.

    Make me some cool graphs too.

    fc

  26. #326
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    Here's my teaser video

    I'm used the Lezyne facility cause I know them and trust them. The Cal Poly guys there are smart. Two of us mtbrs were present during the testing process and I learned a lot.

    They are entering the lights market and I saw and measured their pre-production lights. As a bonus to them, they get to see my data and I did a factory tour video on their other product lines.

    Last edited by fc; 10-17-2011 at 01:30 PM.

  27. #327
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    That is a sweet testing setup.

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I have soooo much data that my Ipad is going to explode

    I'll start releasing some stuff on this thread today. I'd like you guys to help me analyze it and help me draw som conclusions and parameters.

    Make me some cool graphs too.

    fc
    Hello Francois,

    I am new to this forum, and it is the opinions that I am the most interested in once the raw data is presented. I liked your review of the Niterider Minewt 600, but I would personally like to hear more personal commentary.

    For example:
    1. Compare it to other lights in the class, or the class above. You reviewed the Piko, how does this compare? Is it a fair comparison as this light is less than half the cost of the Piko?

    2. Would you use this as a helmet or handlebar light and what other light would you pair it with? "It has a light fruity taste with just a hint of peach and as such would be paired best with Chicken or even desert."

    For me, your opinion matters most. You are the only one of us who can see all the lights next to each other so please go beyond the numbers and being so objective. Be a bit more subjective, please. So in conjunction with #2, while it may not be the best light for off-road, if paired with X and Y taillight, this light would be perfect for commuters looking for extra light, or for roadies looking for an evening work-out.

    - Roger

    P.S.
    Also, in the Minewt review thank you for saying that this was as bright as their old HID lights. I called Nightrider and they said their HID lights were in the 350 range, but I thought that their actual output was much more according to the pictures I was seeing posted in the reviews. Thanks for this comparison, he helped put everything in perspective.

  29. #329
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Huston View Post
    Hello Francois,

    I am new to this forum, and it is the opinions that I am the most interested in once the raw data is presented. I liked your review of the Niterider Minewt 600, but I would personally like to hear more personal commentary.
    ...
    Very good feedback. When I'm done with the individual reviews, I will do several videos comparing a bunch of lights at a time:

    - best commuter, best self-contained, best overall
    - best mounting, charging
    - heat dissipation, switch ergonomic
    - bang for the buck.

    Hopefully, I can come up with good summaries and comparisons in end.

    fc

  30. #330
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    Francois,

    Thank you for taking my comments in consideration. However, during the review process, may I make another suggestion. That you hold similar lights up next to each other for comparison. For example, you did the Piko XL, it would be nice for you to hold that in one hand and the niterider 600 for a quick reference. Or maybe actually show one attached to a handle bar. I see it in your hand, without another reference or another light, it is hard to tell which is bigger or smaller to the next. They all just are - if you know what I mean.

    Thanks,

    Roger

  31. #331
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    Francois, do you know where the Surfas True 1500 video went? Cant find it in the shootout?

  32. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    Francois, do you know where the Surfas True 1500 video went? Cant find it in the shootout?
    It is here:
    MtbrVideos's Channel - YouTube

    I'll work on the review page for that today.

    fc

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    Thanx man!!!

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    Francois: when you get to the MJ-872, would you see if you notice any unusual cooling problems? Many are having it go into overheat mode even when riding or in a windy area at 75% power. It's nice that it has this feature, but it doesn't have much cooling surface for such a powerful light and it looks like it dips into this mode often.

  35. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by @dam View Post
    Francois: when you get to the MJ-872, would you see if you notice any unusual cooling problems? Many are having it go into overheat mode even when riding or in a windy area at 75% power. It's nice that it has this feature, but it doesn't have much cooling surface for such a powerful light and it looks like it dips into this mode often.
    Sure. I just got those and the other magicshines and I have good cooling test setup now with a temp gun.

    The only hard part is knowing if any of the lights stepped down in light output to cool themselves down.

    fc
    Last edited by fc; 10-17-2011 at 05:24 PM.

  36. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Basically mine is made from cut - thin cardboard which I then covered with electrical tape to repeal moisture.
    Thanks for posting those photos Cat-man-do. A simple but elegant solution.

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    Francois, I'm enjoying reading your reviews on the various new lights in the shoutout. I can't wait to see your commuter lights comparisons. I'm especially interested in the reverse offset lens type of lights, such as the Ixon IQ, Phillips Safe Ride, and the Cateye Econom Force.

  38. #338
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    The Beam patterns are up and available on this page:

    2012 Bike Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    fc

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    Is Cygo Lite still sending some lights? Hopefully they can include the Turbo 740 and the Expilion 400 as those are two of the lights I"m considering .

  40. #340
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    "Got everything you need?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    The Beam patterns are up and available on this page:

    2012 Bike Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    fc
    Serfas True 1500 on the beam shots page shows up in flash lights and commuter lights pages and its caption says 500 lumens and $150 price

  42. #342
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    Niterider Minewt 600 | Mountain Bike Review

    Html is reading as the Trinewt instead of the minewt.

    I just want to be sure that it somehow isnt an old picture or some picture from some other light.


    and


    Also the Light and Mption Urban 500 is missing from the trail light pictures.

    Totally, a bummer as thats my contender for my bike so far.
    Last edited by blueyin; 10-18-2011 at 11:15 AM.

  43. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by djembe975 View Post
    Is Cygo Lite still sending some lights? Hopefully they can include the Turbo 740 and the Expilion 400 as those are two of the lights I"m considering .
    I should have the Expilion 350 and the TridenX 750 by today.

    fc

  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyin View Post
    Niterider Minewt 600 | Mountain Bike Review

    Html is reading as the Trinewt instead of the minewt.

    I just want to be sure that it somehow isnt an old picture or some picture from some other light.


    and


    Also the Light and Mption Urban 500 is missing from the trail light pictures.

    Totally, a bummer as thats my contender for my bike so far.
    Fixed. And yes, that's a Minewt.

    The Urban 500 will come. It should be just like the Niterider 600.

    It is a good trail light, but it does have a bright side light that can't be turned off. This could be bothersome when installed on the handlebars.

    fc

  45. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    Fixed. Thank you!!!

  46. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    The Beam patterns are up and available on this page:

    2012 Bike Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    fc
    Funny when you see tha MJ-872 next to the NR Mako 1. I belive its a mistake to put the 872 in a conmuter category.

    In the trail photo its place in the high end.

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Basically mine is made from cut - thin cardboard which I then covered with electrical tape to repeal moisture.. it is held on using electrical tape as well. The light is a K-Lite 3-XPG R5 which is sold on-line from Ozzie-land. The hood works very well and makes the mid-mode much more usable. Some of the light which normally would go up into the trees is reflected down to the ground. Next year I will try to make the upper black rim around optic reflective as well. The way I figure it every little bit helps.
    Thanks for the reply. I'm going to experiment a little with this. If I find out anything interesting I'll start a new thread since I'm off topic here.

  48. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by mochodurazo View Post
    Funny when you see tha MJ-872 next to the NR Mako 1. I belive its a mistake to put the 872 in a conmuter category.

    In the trail photo its place in the high end.
    Fixed!!!!

    fc

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    Francois, It would be nice if you could include some technical data from the manufacturers such as what LEDs are being used, what is the drive current at each setting, what is the watt/hr rating of the battery pack(s),is there thermal regulation etc. Also some discussion of the mounts and ease of aiming the light. Does it swivel precisely in the vertical plane? I know you get into this stuff to some degree in the videos but a little more would be welcome. Kudos for all your efforts in enlightening us. It's awesome.

    (Plus...still haven't corrected the Dinotte names in the thumbnails and beam shots, by the way.)
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

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    Question, does a hot or very warm casing indicate poor or good thermal management? Francois has posited that a cool casing is an indication that heat from the LED's is being dissipated well. I seem to recall a contention voiced in these forums that a warm casing is indication of good thermal transfer. Which is it? Or is the answer not so black and white. Discuss.
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

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