Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 301 to 400 of 570
  1. #301
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    210
    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Correct. I don't want any post-processing. I may try shooting with another camera and in raw formats.

    fc
    fyi - for this advice at least -
    1) Turn ADL off.
    2) Set Contrast to Neutral or Low.

    This isn't post-processing, it's more...turning down and reducing the amount of in-camera processing that's being done. It's also something you would set these things on the camera and wouldn't require any work past that. (Not commenting on whether it's good or bad advice, just mentioning it's not time consuming "post-processing", and if you're looking for "natural" results turning ADL off would probably produce more consistent and natural results than leaving it on.)

  2. #302
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rzims's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,097
    Ok, so I just spent a couple hours and most of a pot of coffee reading this whole thread....awesome stuff!

    Thank you Francis for all the work that goes into this, I'm looking for a light setup as we speak for our weekly night ride and the timing couldn't be better...

  3. #303
    BBW
    BBW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: BBW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,183
    Quote Originally Posted by lou2uanme View Post
    Lupine website says the Betty 2600 is 460 grams (1.01lbs) and has a 7.5 amp hour Li-Ion battery. Cost $930

    Niterider website says Pro 3000 is 812 grams (1.79lbs) and has a 11.6 amp hour Li-Ion battery.
    Cost $700.

    The Niterider Pro 3000 battery has 4.1 amp hours more capacity than the Betty. That is a lot more battery capacity for 3/4 pound more in weight.

    I'm not sure if the website info is accurate or if the weights include mounts or not but that is what is posted.


    I'd prefer to get a higher capacity battery and brighter light and at $230 cheaper....... 3 reasons to get the NR Pro 3000 over the lighter weight Betty 2600
    I prefer a light that I can upgrade and not have to throw away in a couple of years
    BBW. MS, RD

  4. #304
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    144
    NR Pro 3000 is only $550 at PerformanceBikes.com. They are currently out of stock, but will get it in on the 1st of Nov. It makes it an amazing deal compared to Lupine.

  5. #305
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    2
    Really looking forward to the review of the Exposure sixpack, as this is the one I recently ordered (haven't received it yet). Around when can we expect this review?

  6. #306
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,491
    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    ....The "tape over the top half" trick only really works if you're blocking the direct line of sight to the emitter itself. So you probably need to block just a little more than the top half. Even better than just the tape would be a small mirror, or even smooth aluminum foil. This would have the effect of reflecting back a good portion of the light, and if the light is using a parabolic reflector, it would be re-directed out the bottom half, essentially what the Philips is doing, only with a much bigger reflector with a compound shape. But then again, considering the output lost doing this, you might be just as well off to cut the light's total power output (if possible) and re-aiming for slightly less throw. Just IMO.
    I created a small hood for my triple XPG and used a small bit of aluminum foil to line the underneath part. I've been using it this way ever since and I swear it puts some of the wasted light back down to where you need it.

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Yes, both these lights are the latest from Dinotte and received last week. We are still investigating as well. More shooting tonight Integrating Sphere on Friday.

    The 1200L is on par with other 1200 lumen lights. The XML-3 seems to be putting out about 1400 lumens.

    Treat these numbers as preliminary. Oct. 31 is the final deadline for all the photos and data.

    Here's a good page with historical data too:
    Bike Lights Shootout Light Meter Measurements | Mountain Bike Review

    fc


    Francois, Very good work on getting all those lights. I am a little disappointed that the Bikeray IV or III hasn't been included yet. I really would of liked to know how the output(s) compared to the MS MJ-872.

    I'm still shaking my head over the comparisons with the DiNotte 1300L+ and the XML 3. The photos that Randyharris did showed the 1300L+ ( up graded ) to throw further than the DiNotte XML3. Something not right here. One of you has to be wrong. If you had plans to buy a DiNotte this would certainly give you pause.

  7. #307
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    I just got back from the Integrating Sphere session. I have some good data but the big lights did not measure well. The sphere is small and the lights are mounted outside with an AC vent cooling the light. The hole in the sphere is 2 inches big and the light head had to fit in the space and a collar had to seal the hole. This worked very well for all self-contained lights.

    The Sphere was calibrated in the beginning and end of the session with a 379 lumen flashlight. We took lumen readings at startup, 1 minute, 2 and 3 minutes. Color temperature was recorded too.

    We have graphs of some lights lumen output througout their whole battery run time.

    photos:
    1) san jose to san luis obispo
    2) my hosts had good coffee
    3) this small integrating sphere would bounce the external light 10x around the sphere
    4) the light is measured by a sensor connected to a PC
    5) exposure toro during a measuring session
    6) an output graph of a good light on the left and another one on the right.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0049.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0051.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0066.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0070.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0079.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-dsc_0085.jpg  


  8. #308
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I created a small hood for my triple XPG and used a small bit of aluminum foil to line the underneath part. I've been using it this way ever since and I swear it puts some of the wasted light back down to where you need it.

    .
    Cat-man: Do you have a photo of your light + hood that you could post?

  9. #309
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I just got back from the Integrating Sphere session. I have some good data but the big lights did not measure well. The sphere is small and the lights are mounted outside with an AC vent cooling the light. The hole in the sphere is 2 inches big and the light head had to fit in the space and a collar had to seal the hole. This worked very well for all self-contained lights.

    The Sphere was calibrated in the beginning and end of the session with a 379 lumen flashlight. We took lumen readings at startup, 1 minute, 2 and 3 minutes. Color temperature was recorded too.

    We have graphs of some lights lumen output througout their whole battery run time.

    photos:
    1) san jose to san luis obispo
    2) my hosts had good coffee
    3) this small integrating sphere would bounce the external light 10x around the sphere
    4) the light is measured by a sensor connected to a PC
    5) exposure toro during a measuring session
    6) an output graph of a good light on the left and another one on the right.
    Very, very, cool. Thanks for taking the time to go to the sphere.

    Did you manage to get any of the new Lezyne lights to test? They look like they might be great commuter lights.

  10. #310
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    2,189
    Good work, Francois!

    I would really ask that you still do your MTBR testing too. That is relatively calibrated and it is the only means we would really have of comparing to previously tested lights. I'm also concerned about the big lights as you mentioned.

    J.

  11. #311
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MRMOLE's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,483
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I created a small hood for my triple XPG and used a small bit of aluminum foil to line the underneath part. I've been using it this way ever since and I swear it puts some of the wasted light back down to where you need it.





    Francois, Very good work on getting all those lights. I am a little disappointed that the Bikeray IV or III hasn't been included yet. I really would of liked to know how the output(s) compared to the MS MJ-872.

    I'm still shaking my head over the comparisons with the DiNotte 1300L+ and the XML 3. The photos that Randyharris did showed the 1300L+ ( up graded ) to throw further than the DiNotte XML3. Something not right here. One of you has to be wrong. If you had plans to buy a DiNotte this would certainly give you pause.
    I've considered a light hood before for different reasons (blinding other riders, pedistrians, drivers, etc.) and am interested in how much wased lite you reclaimed. Your opinion would be appreciated. Also is your fabricated reflector flat or formfitted to the lens shape?

  12. #312
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by joep7 View Post
    Really looking forward to the review of the Exposure sixpack, as this is the one I recently ordered (haven't received it yet). Around when can we expect this review?
    I too am waiting for this review, however I think I heard in one of the videos that this light takes forever to recharge. So for me, I output is just one deciding factor, durability, form factor, ease of use, all come into play.

    - Roger

  13. #313
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    7
    Francois,

    Thanks for doing all these test -- they have been very helpful and I know that it is a lot of work.

    I have a question, for the Exposure lights, like the Diablo and Toro, the 2012 numbers are lower than the 2011 numbers. For example, the Diablo is listed as 59 lux for 2012 while last year it was listed as 63.

    Could this be due to the new Intelligent Thermal Management system that Exposure added this year. It is supposed to reduce the light level if the light heats up. During testing, was there any airflow over the lights?

    Thanks.

  14. #314
    Old Fart at Play
    Reputation: Titus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    637
    Quote Originally Posted by a.k.a. View Post
    By the way, John, the D7000 currently has the highest dynamic-range sensor going in the 35mm format DSLR world -- coming in at 14 f-stops, according to DxOMark It is equipped with the same sensor as Nikon's top-of-the-line D9000. The only thing it ain't got is a full-frame 35mm sensor, like the D3 series.

    No need to hunt for a better camera, Francois. You have THE sweetest camera of the DSLR world.
    Nikon D9000? Did I miss something? Like a year? Is it 2012 already? Where am I?
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  15. #315
    Old Fart at Play
    Reputation: Titus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    637
    Francois,

    A note on Dinotte nomenclature:

    The dual quad XP-G light engine is designated as the 1200L Plus. The 1200L is an older model.
    The new XP-G model of the 400 (which I assume is the one you are testing) is designated as the 400L Plus. The 400L is an older model.
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  16. #316
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Maximus View Post
    Francois,

    A note on Dinotte nomenclature:

    The dual quad XP-G light engine is designated as the 1200L Plus. The 1200L is an older model.
    The new XP-G model of the 400 (which I assume is the one you are testing) is designated as the 400L Plus. The 400L is an older model.
    I'll fix my descriptions. I have the latest ones I'm sure.

    fc

  17. #317
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by gocycling View Post
    Francois,

    Thanks for doing all these test -- they have been very helpful and I know that it is a lot of work.

    I have a question, for the Exposure lights, like the Diablo and Toro, the 2012 numbers are lower than the 2011 numbers. For example, the Diablo is listed as 59 lux for 2012 while last year it was listed as 63.

    Could this be due to the new Intelligent Thermal Management system that Exposure added this year. It is supposed to reduce the light level if the light heats up. During testing, was there any airflow over the lights?

    Thanks.
    Wow, that makes sense. I'll to Exposure about this. Maybe it's too intelligent

    The lights in the Mtbr Lux Measurement are measured within 3 seconds of turning them on.

    At the lumens measurement in SLO, we had an air conditioning duct pointed at the light during the 3 minute test.

    fc

  18. #318
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,461
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Huston View Post
    I too am waiting for this review, however I think I heard in one of the videos that this light takes forever to recharge. So for me, I output is just one deciding factor, durability, form factor, ease of use, all come into play.

    - Roger
    It take's 24 hours to charge the six pack unless Exposure made a change for 2012.

  19. #319
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Wow, that makes sense. I'll to Exposure about this. Maybe it's too intelligent

    The lights in the Mtbr Lux Measurement are measured within 3 seconds of turning them on.

    At the lumens measurement in SLO, we had an air conditioning duct pointed at the light during the 3 minute test.

    fc
    Thanks Francois. Given that the 2011 Diablo is rated at 900 lumens and the 2012 is rated at 975 lumens, I'm sure that Exposure would be interested in what happened :-) (BTW, I have the 2011 Diablo and find, at you did, that it really is a great light).

    -w

  20. #320
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    2,189
    But, as you note, that looks the Exposure Diablo comes in at about where the Piko 3 does which is 750 lumens. I thought that Exposure bumped up the diablo by 30% from last year to this year - which would account for it being 900 some lumens. So, Francois - are your numbers wrong, get some lights mixed up with results or is the Diablo really only a 750 lumen light? I'm confused.

    J.

  21. #321
    RTM
    RTM is offline
    #1 Latex Salesman
    Reputation: RTM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,845
    Perhaps this shootout has become so important to the industry where a more precise lux measurement test is in order for 2013?
    Last edited by RTM; 10-17-2011 at 06:38 AM.

  22. #322
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pethelman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    302
    Quote Originally Posted by gocycling View Post
    Thanks Francois. Given that the 2011 Diablo is rated at 900 lumens and the 2012 is rated at 975 lumens, I'm sure that Exposure would be interested in what happened :-) (BTW, I have the 2011 Diablo and find, at you did, that it really is a great light).

    -w
    We have to keep in mind that 975/900 is only an 8% increase.
    Aside from the fact that you'd never notice the difference between 900 and 975 from identical optics, CREE also states that they "maintain a tolerance of +/-7% on flux and power measurements..." So, while odd, the discrepancy is certainly not out of the realm of possibility. Any number of other factors could have also contributed to the lower measurement this year. JFWIW

  23. #323
    Old-newbie
    Reputation: g3rG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    379
    Allo Fracois!

    I see some flashlight type lights are included this year. I would humbly recommend the Zebralight SC600 for the comparison. It is not a true bike light, but it can do a sustained 500lm for 2 hrs, with a 750 lm turbo mode for staring down mountain lions. The beam pattern is wonderful for a helmet light. I did most of my summer pre-dawn rides with this diminutive light zip-tied to the top of my helmet. After the ride, I snipped it off and dropped it in my pocket, for use at my job the rest of the day. As an all-around light it is an amazing value. Well, as long as you already have some 18650 cells and a charger around.

    gerG
    ...uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill uphill uphill uphill DOWNHILL! uphill ...

  24. #324
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,491
    Quote Originally Posted by MRMOLE View Post
    I've considered a light hood before for different reasons (blinding other riders, pedistrians, drivers, etc.) and am interested in how much wasted lite you reclaimed. Your opinion would be appreciated. Also is your fabricated reflector flat or form-fitted to the lens shape?
    Basically mine is made from cut - thin cardboard which I then covered with electrical tape to repeal moisture.. it is held on using electrical tape as well. The light is a K-Lite 3-XPG R5 which is sold on-line from Ozzie-land. The hood works very well and makes the mid-mode much more usable. Some of the light which normally would go up into the trees is reflected down to the ground. Next year I will try to make the upper black rim around optic reflective as well. The way I figure it every little bit helps.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-lighthood.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-lighthood1.jpg  


  25. #325
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    I have soooo much data that my Ipad is going to explode

    I'll start releasing some stuff on this thread today. I'd like you guys to help me analyze it and help me draw som conclusions and parameters.

    Make me some cool graphs too.

    fc

  26. #326
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Here's my teaser video

    I'm used the Lezyne facility cause I know them and trust them. The Cal Poly guys there are smart. Two of us mtbrs were present during the testing process and I learned a lot.

    They are entering the lights market and I saw and measured their pre-production lights. As a bonus to them, they get to see my data and I did a factory tour video on their other product lines.

    Last edited by fc; 10-17-2011 at 12:30 PM.

  27. #327
    sbd
    sbd is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    305
    That is a sweet testing setup.

  28. #328
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I have soooo much data that my Ipad is going to explode

    I'll start releasing some stuff on this thread today. I'd like you guys to help me analyze it and help me draw som conclusions and parameters.

    Make me some cool graphs too.

    fc
    Hello Francois,

    I am new to this forum, and it is the opinions that I am the most interested in once the raw data is presented. I liked your review of the Niterider Minewt 600, but I would personally like to hear more personal commentary.

    For example:
    1. Compare it to other lights in the class, or the class above. You reviewed the Piko, how does this compare? Is it a fair comparison as this light is less than half the cost of the Piko?

    2. Would you use this as a helmet or handlebar light and what other light would you pair it with? "It has a light fruity taste with just a hint of peach and as such would be paired best with Chicken or even desert."

    For me, your opinion matters most. You are the only one of us who can see all the lights next to each other so please go beyond the numbers and being so objective. Be a bit more subjective, please. So in conjunction with #2, while it may not be the best light for off-road, if paired with X and Y taillight, this light would be perfect for commuters looking for extra light, or for roadies looking for an evening work-out.

    - Roger

    P.S.
    Also, in the Minewt review thank you for saying that this was as bright as their old HID lights. I called Nightrider and they said their HID lights were in the 350 range, but I thought that their actual output was much more according to the pictures I was seeing posted in the reviews. Thanks for this comparison, he helped put everything in perspective.

  29. #329
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Huston View Post
    Hello Francois,

    I am new to this forum, and it is the opinions that I am the most interested in once the raw data is presented. I liked your review of the Niterider Minewt 600, but I would personally like to hear more personal commentary.
    ...
    Very good feedback. When I'm done with the individual reviews, I will do several videos comparing a bunch of lights at a time:

    - best commuter, best self-contained, best overall
    - best mounting, charging
    - heat dissipation, switch ergonomic
    - bang for the buck.

    Hopefully, I can come up with good summaries and comparisons in end.

    fc

  30. #330
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    45
    Francois,

    Thank you for taking my comments in consideration. However, during the review process, may I make another suggestion. That you hold similar lights up next to each other for comparison. For example, you did the Piko XL, it would be nice for you to hold that in one hand and the niterider 600 for a quick reference. Or maybe actually show one attached to a handle bar. I see it in your hand, without another reference or another light, it is hard to tell which is bigger or smaller to the next. They all just are - if you know what I mean.

    Thanks,

    Roger

  31. #331
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,461
    Francois, do you know where the Surfas True 1500 video went? Cant find it in the shootout?

  32. #332
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    Francois, do you know where the Surfas True 1500 video went? Cant find it in the shootout?
    It is here:
    MtbrVideos's Channel - YouTube

    I'll work on the review page for that today.

    fc

  33. #333
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,461
    Thanx man!!!

  34. #334
    Village Dirtbag
    Reputation: @dam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,286
    Francois: when you get to the MJ-872, would you see if you notice any unusual cooling problems? Many are having it go into overheat mode even when riding or in a windy area at 75% power. It's nice that it has this feature, but it doesn't have much cooling surface for such a powerful light and it looks like it dips into this mode often.

  35. #335
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by @dam View Post
    Francois: when you get to the MJ-872, would you see if you notice any unusual cooling problems? Many are having it go into overheat mode even when riding or in a windy area at 75% power. It's nice that it has this feature, but it doesn't have much cooling surface for such a powerful light and it looks like it dips into this mode often.
    Sure. I just got those and the other magicshines and I have good cooling test setup now with a temp gun.

    The only hard part is knowing if any of the lights stepped down in light output to cool themselves down.

    fc
    Last edited by fc; 10-17-2011 at 04:24 PM.

  36. #336
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Basically mine is made from cut - thin cardboard which I then covered with electrical tape to repeal moisture.
    Thanks for posting those photos Cat-man-do. A simple but elegant solution.

  37. #337
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    23
    Francois, I'm enjoying reading your reviews on the various new lights in the shoutout. I can't wait to see your commuter lights comparisons. I'm especially interested in the reverse offset lens type of lights, such as the Ixon IQ, Phillips Safe Ride, and the Cateye Econom Force.

  38. #338
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    The Beam patterns are up and available on this page:

    2012 Bike Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    fc

  39. #339
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    626
    Is Cygo Lite still sending some lights? Hopefully they can include the Turbo 740 and the Expilion 400 as those are two of the lights I"m considering .

  40. #340
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoHeadsBrewing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,879
    "Got everything you need?"

  41. #341
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    144
    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    The Beam patterns are up and available on this page:

    2012 Bike Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    fc
    Serfas True 1500 on the beam shots page shows up in flash lights and commuter lights pages and its caption says 500 lumens and $150 price

  42. #342
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    23
    Niterider Minewt 600 | Mountain Bike Review

    Html is reading as the Trinewt instead of the minewt.

    I just want to be sure that it somehow isnt an old picture or some picture from some other light.


    and


    Also the Light and Mption Urban 500 is missing from the trail light pictures.

    Totally, a bummer as thats my contender for my bike so far.
    Last edited by blueyin; 10-18-2011 at 10:15 AM.

  43. #343
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by djembe975 View Post
    Is Cygo Lite still sending some lights? Hopefully they can include the Turbo 740 and the Expilion 400 as those are two of the lights I"m considering .
    I should have the Expilion 350 and the TridenX 750 by today.

    fc

  44. #344
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by blueyin View Post
    Niterider Minewt 600 | Mountain Bike Review

    Html is reading as the Trinewt instead of the minewt.

    I just want to be sure that it somehow isnt an old picture or some picture from some other light.


    and


    Also the Light and Mption Urban 500 is missing from the trail light pictures.

    Totally, a bummer as thats my contender for my bike so far.
    Fixed. And yes, that's a Minewt.

    The Urban 500 will come. It should be just like the Niterider 600.

    It is a good trail light, but it does have a bright side light that can't be turned off. This could be bothersome when installed on the handlebars.

    fc

  45. #345
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    Fixed. Thank you!!!

  46. #346
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    The Beam patterns are up and available on this page:

    2012 Bike Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    fc
    Funny when you see tha MJ-872 next to the NR Mako 1. I belive its a mistake to put the 872 in a conmuter category.

    In the trail photo its place in the high end.

  47. #347
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MRMOLE's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    1,483
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    Basically mine is made from cut - thin cardboard which I then covered with electrical tape to repeal moisture.. it is held on using electrical tape as well. The light is a K-Lite 3-XPG R5 which is sold on-line from Ozzie-land. The hood works very well and makes the mid-mode much more usable. Some of the light which normally would go up into the trees is reflected down to the ground. Next year I will try to make the upper black rim around optic reflective as well. The way I figure it every little bit helps.
    Thanks for the reply. I'm going to experiment a little with this. If I find out anything interesting I'll start a new thread since I'm off topic here.

  48. #348
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by mochodurazo View Post
    Funny when you see tha MJ-872 next to the NR Mako 1. I belive its a mistake to put the 872 in a conmuter category.

    In the trail photo its place in the high end.
    Fixed!!!!

    fc

  49. #349
    Old Fart at Play
    Reputation: Titus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    637
    Francois, It would be nice if you could include some technical data from the manufacturers such as what LEDs are being used, what is the drive current at each setting, what is the watt/hr rating of the battery pack(s),is there thermal regulation etc. Also some discussion of the mounts and ease of aiming the light. Does it swivel precisely in the vertical plane? I know you get into this stuff to some degree in the videos but a little more would be welcome. Kudos for all your efforts in enlightening us. It's awesome.

    (Plus...still haven't corrected the Dinotte names in the thumbnails and beam shots, by the way.)
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  50. #350
    Old Fart at Play
    Reputation: Titus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    637
    Question, does a hot or very warm casing indicate poor or good thermal management? Francois has posited that a cool casing is an indication that heat from the LED's is being dissipated well. I seem to recall a contention voiced in these forums that a warm casing is indication of good thermal transfer. Which is it? Or is the answer not so black and white. Discuss.
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  51. #351
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Maximus View Post
    Question, does a hot or very warm casing indicate poor or good thermal management? Francois has posited that a cool casing is an indication that heat from the LED's is being dissipated well. I seem to recall a contention voiced in these forums that a warm casing is indication of good thermal transfer. Which is it? Or is the answer not so black and white. Discuss.
    I would say not that simple. What you want is consistent temperature throughout the whole unit, as if it was solid. The important parameter is the temperature inside the light, where the LED and the electronics live.

    A simple touch test of the outside casing doesn't really tell you how well the internals are thermally connected to the housing. A well designed and manufactured light may feel cool to the touch when under normal operating conditions (air moving over it), but the same unit badly assembled so that it had very poor thermal conductivity to the housing would also feel cool (actually cooler) but meanwhile the internals are burning up because the excess heat is not being drawn away.

    The only real way to tell its thermal stability is to measure the inside temperature over a period of time, but this is not usually possible from a practical basis.

    One thing that can be done fairly easily is to measure the housing temperature of a test sample against a known, good reference of the exact same light.

    Under the same operating conditions, the test sample should have the same housing temp as the reference if it's working properly. If the test sample has a lower housing temp then it's an indicator that it has poorer thermal conductivity than the reference and will probably fail earlier.

    Unfortunately this only identifies poorly made units of the same design but does not provide any information regarding how good the design itself is.

  52. #352
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    19
    Hi Francois

    I ask you again
    Why do you write Philips SafeRide is 400 Claimed Lumen?
    Manufacturer(PHILIPS) announces it as 270 Lumen in Germany.
    The USA version is announced as 400 Lumen?

    Vienna1

  53. #353
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    19
    Why is mtbr.com so slow?
    I remember it was not all 2 or 3 years ago.
    Always I must reload many times before I can see a page.
    And even when I can see a page, almost pictures are not shown.
    Almost pictures are shown as broken icons.
    Can regular members here read and post comfortably?

  54. #354
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Vienna1 View Post
    Why is mtbr.com so slow?
    I remember it was not all 2 or 3 years ago.
    Always I must reload many times before I can see a page.
    And even when I can see a page, almost pictures are not shown.
    Almost pictures are shown as broken icons.
    Can regular members here read and post comfortably?
    Where exactly are you accessing the site from? What kind of browser and computer? Is just the forums slow or the whole website?

    Can you check loads.in - test how fast a webpage loads in a real browser from over 50 locations worldwide website? Enter our URL and it will show you if there are any bottlenecks in the server.

    fc

  55. #355
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Vienna1 View Post
    Hi Francois

    I ask you again
    Why do you write Philips SafeRide is 400 Claimed Lumen?
    Manufacturer(PHILIPS) announces it as 270 Lumen in Germany.
    The USA version is announced as 400 Lumen?

    Vienna1
    400 lumen is my estimate of it and is a placeholder. I'll confirm with them what the declared lumen output is.

    fc

  56. #356
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Maximus View Post
    Question, does a hot or very warm casing indicate poor or good thermal management? Francois has posited that a cool casing is an indication that heat from the LED's is being dissipated well. I seem to recall a contention voiced in these forums that a warm casing is indication of good thermal transfer. Which is it? Or is the answer not so black and white. Discuss.
    We have to assume that the LED is transferring heat to the case in a modern production light.

    In my experience handling at least a hundred lights now, a tiny light head with many leds will get very hot compared to the same leds with a huge light head. It's all about surface area to dissipate the heat.

    A key issue is electronics heat protection mode. Good lights will step down the light output as the temperature increases. So one has to avoid this stepping down if comparing heat dissipation.

    Another interesting factor is dual-casing. Good lights have many heatsink fins encased in an outer shell that directs airflow. The outer case won't get as hot as the fins.

    That being said, I have a temp gun but I'm not sure what is a worthy data collection regarding heat.

    fc

  57. #357
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    The Urban 500 review is out.

    Light & Motion Urban 500, Urban 300 and Urban 180 – 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    Does anybody own this light yet?

    The only big downfall is this is not intended for mountain biking use and the 'yellow' side visibility lights cannot be turned off. They punched holes in the reflector to get that light out. I suppose there are workarounds.

    fc

  58. #358
    mtbr member
    Reputation: mattthemuppet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    2,342
    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    We have to assume that the LED is transferring heat to the case in a modern production light.
    not to be argumentative, but we can't assume that at all. Perhaps in the higher quality lights, but I've seen several Magicshines where the emitter doesn't have any thermal paste under it or the light board isn't thermally coupled to the housing. Even if the LED is thermally coupled that in turn doesn't mean that the thermal paths throughout the case are well coupled - there have been at least a couple of MJ-872 owners complaining of thermal issues, most likely due to its multipart case.

  59. #359
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pethelman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    302
    If I might expand a little on your already good insights into thermal management...

    "We have to assume that the LED is transferring heat to the case in a modern production light."

    Generally speaking, this is true. However, to do it really well and achieve a consistently optimal mechanical interface between two structures is not a process that is very conducive to mass production. Just take a look at the aftermarket PC-cooling technology. Often, significant improvements can be made with the judicious application of thermal epoxies and thermal compounds, sometimes expensive. Great care has to be taken during application to achieve the thinnest possible layer of material with no voids or air gaps, so it can be tedious and time consuming, which are two things that manufacturers really want to avoid to keep costs down. Making this kind of good thermal connection between the control electronics and the case can be even trickier.

    "In my experience handling at least a hundred lights now, a tiny light head with many leds will get very hot compared to the same leds with a huge light head. It's all about surface area to dissipate the heat."

    True, and I would expand on that a bit by saying it's a combination of mass and total cooling surface area. A physically large light could actually have much less usable cooling surface area than a smaller light with many cooling "fins." However, the larger mass takes longer to "soak through" or reach steady-state. With no air flow, the larger light can become just as hot as the smaller light (assuming similar surface area), given enough time. Once the body of the light has reached steady-state, then it becomes all about convective cooling and the effectiveness of the heat sink design.

    "A key issue is electronics heat protection mode. Good lights will step down the light output as the temperature increases. So one has to avoid this stepping down if comparing heat dissipation."

    Another very true statement. One of the interesting aspects of this idea is that most, if not all of the circuit designs out there rely on a temperature sensor that is physically on the control circuit board and not co-located directly at the LED. As such, for really effective LED temperature monitoring, you need the best possible thermal path between the LEDs and the temp sensor on the circuit board to prevent huge variations in the protection ability as a function of air flow. "Self-protection" has definitely come up on other forum topics, but with the high power LEDs, it's still a bit of a gray area as to how well this may actually be protecting the LEDs under various air-flow conditions. So yes, most lights will have this "feature," but not all lights do it equally well, and some don't do it very well at all by not protecting soon enough at safe temperatures.

    "Another interesting factor is dual-casing. Good lights have many heatsink fins encased in an outer shell that directs airflow. The outer case won't get as hot as the fins."

    I might have to take exception with this one...
    In my humble opinion, there is no good reason (from an engineering standpoint) to encase your primary heat-dissipating element. Maybe from a safety and aesthetics standpoint, yes, but from the standpoint of operational efficiency, no. The outer casing in this situation is really more of a heat "shield" and actually reflects some of the heat back into the light, causing it to get even hotter in low to no air-flow situations than it would normally. The degree to which the outer casing on this small of a scale can effectively "direct" the air flow any better than a well designed "finned" heat sink in a free flow of air is questionable to me. I guess if it works, maybe it'll prove to be an OK thing, I just wouldn't go so far as to say its a characteristic of "good" lights. Again, just my opinion.

    "That being said, I have a temp gun but I'm not sure what is a worthy data collection regarding heat."

    You're right. It's a tough parameter to quantify. In general, given that good heat management is all about preserving the maximum output of the LEDs over their lifetime, the most important measurement you can make is the temperature right at the LED. Given that this is virtually impossible without modifications to the light, the next best thing would be to observe that the housing does a good job of extracting heat with air flow. In my thinking, this would be represented by the difference between the maximum observed case temperature with no air flow (before protection kicks in) and the highest steady-state case temperature while running with good air flow. In general, you'd hope to see the no-air-flow max case temp before protection not exceed 120 to 130F. Not sure how you would quantify it on the "encased" lights. Of course you would then have to "weight" the results by the total watts dissipated, so all in all, its a nightmare.

    Thanks for all that you're doing to sort through the labyrinth of lights out there and make them more accessible to all of us.

  60. #360
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    752
    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    We have to assume that the LED is transferring heat to the case in a modern production light.
    I have to agree with the others that this is not really a valid assumption. Every light will have a thermal resistance value between the LED junction and the air around the case. It's the sum of all the individual resistances for the thermal boundaries between the LED die and the exterior of the case. For the lights that are well engineered, the engineering team will have a pretty good idea of this value. They will have calculated the value based on the design and taken actual measurement on prototype lights. There really isn't a good and bad, there's a quantitative value for each light and if they were all known I'm sure you'd find a nice even distribution from best to worst across all the different lights you're testing.

    I do agree from a practical perspective, you really don't have a good way to directly measure the total thermal resistance or collect the data from the light makers. But, there is a fairly easy way to get a pretty accurate approximation. And I was intrigued that you actually touched on this with your integrating sphere measurements. The total thermal resistance between the LED junction and the case will be directly proportional to the drop in brightness between the time the light is first turned on and after it's settled to a stable temperature. The main thing you'll need to keep constant is the airflow over the light. The temperature will need to be constant to a lesser extent, but +-5 degrees that would be typical inside a house isn't going to make that much difference if the airflow is consistent.

  61. #361
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    752
    It's probably also worth noting that the time it takes for the temperature to stabilize will be proportional to the mass of the light. Little lights with low mass will stabilize more quickly than bigger lights with lots of mass. If you really care about measuring the quality of the thermal path, you'll look at the difference between initial and stabilized light output independent of how long it takes for the light output to stabilize.

    Since most biker really care how much light is produced over the bulk of their ride, I would contend that the steady state light output is really what's important, as opposed to the initial brightness.

    You may already be doing this with your lux measurements, since I don't know the exact procedure you use.

  62. #362
    Village Dirtbag
    Reputation: @dam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,286
    I agree that it isn't a safe to assume there is good conduction between the LED and heat sink.

    I'd say your best bet would be to place the IR thermometer on the lens directly in front of a centrally located LED after the light has been run inside, in a controlled environment for, say, 15 minutes. Most of the heat, of course, isn't emitted from the front side of the LED, and the lens will interfere some, but that is the closest you'll get to where the heat is being generated. The temperature will be much lower than the temp on the backside, but the hotter the front side is, the hotter the back side must be. It'll provide a basis of comparison for lights running similar LED's at similar power levels.

    It might be interesting to repeat the test in front of a table fan set on low.

  63. #363
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    I can aim the laser temp gun at the led itself. Will that get the temp of the lens or the LED? I can compare it to temp of top front of the casing.

    Thanks Pethelman and the gang for the knowledge.

    fc

  64. #364
    Village Dirtbag
    Reputation: @dam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,286
    I think it'll get a bit of both, but mostly whatever is hotter. I can feel the heat of the sun through a window, but if the window is cold you might feel that cold if you're right next to it. Some glass can also block IR. You could probably get an idea by taking a lens off one of the lights, holding it in front of a known heat source, and seeing what the difference is.

    It probably doesn't matter much though since they'll ALL be through the lens. If similar glass is used you'd expect similar results. I know my HID light puts a lot of heat out through the glass even though the glass itself doesn't get that hot, so the glass on that light must be transmitting most of the radiation.

    One challenge to getting consistent results though will be the size of the area sampeled. The emissivity of the reflector will be much, MUCH lower than the suface of the LED itself, so could lead to unusually cool measurments if some of the reflector is sampeled.

  65. #365
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    626
    Hey Francis did you receive the lights form CygoLite yet?

  66. #366
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by djembe975 View Post
    Hey Francis did you receive the lights form CygoLite yet?
    UPS tracking says:
    Delivered On:
    Wednesday, 10/19/2011 at 11:57 A.M.
    Left At:
    Front Door

    It should be waiting for me after my epic night ride tonight.

    fc

  67. #367
    Village Dirtbag
    Reputation: @dam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,286
    You should do a glory trip with this set up on your bar, maybe a few more hanging below the bar, and a light attached to every vent in your helmet. You'd be blazin'.


  68. #368
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Vienna1 View Post
    Hi Francois

    I ask you again
    Why do you write Philips SafeRide is 400 Claimed Lumen?
    Manufacturer(PHILIPS) announces it as 270 Lumen in Germany.
    The USA version is announced as 400 Lumen?

    Vienna1
    I talked to them and they do not know what their lumens output is. It's marketed as 80 Lux in Germany

    Until they measure it or make a claim for the US light, I'm going to put:

    400 Lumens (mtbr estimate)

    It's certainly brighter than 270 lumens and it measures the same as several 400-500 lumen lights in my lux meter.

    fc

  69. #369
    Old Fart at Play
    Reputation: Titus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    637
    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I talked to them and they do not know what their lumens output is. It's marketed as 80 Lux in Germany

    Until they measure it or make a claim for the US light, I'm going to put:

    400 Lumens (mtbr estimate)

    It's certainly brighter than 270 lumens and it measures the same as several 400-500 lumen lights in my lux meter.

    fc
    Perhaps Vienna1 is confusing it with the dynamo driven version which presumably puts out less light?
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  70. #370
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    14
    I've read about somebody measuring this to be 291 lumens. Based on the current draw and the Luxeon Rebel LED specs, somebody else has estimated to be around 270 lumens. BTW, the philips webiste says "220 lumens on the beam", so that may be a honest figure taking into account optical losses? For a shaped beam like the Philips, lux (lumens per square meter) at a specified distance (e.g., 10m) makes more sense than lumens. It appears a *whole* lot brighter than the lumen spec suggests because it concentrating all the output on to the road. For example the Philips appears to illuminate the road better than the Sigma Power LED EVO 900 (claimed 900 lumens) and with superior throw as well!

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I talked to them and they do not know what their lumens output is. It's marketed as 80 Lux in Germany

    Until they measure it or make a claim for the US light, I'm going to put:

    400 Lumens (mtbr estimate)

    It's certainly brighter than 270 lumens and it measures the same as several 400-500 lumen lights in my lux meter.

    fc
    Last edited by NiteBiker; 10-19-2011 at 05:29 PM. Reason: comparison with sigma light

  71. #371
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    456
    Hey FC

    Did you publish the LUX readings yet. I didn't see it but maybe I missed something.

    And yes, you have to go out at least once w/ all the lights hooked up and at least 2 on the lid. With picts of course. It must just be laughable!!!!

    MB

  72. #372
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    23
    Ok, serious winter commuter question:

    Which lights are going to be better for freezing or below temperatures, flash-light style or light head and external battery type?

    I commute 365 days, usually when I need my light is during the cold months, which are great for killing batteries. I had a Magicshine in the past and would use the extension cable to keep the battery in my jacket (close to my body). I have used a large cateye flashlight style as well with NIMH batts and that seemed to work out all right. But I want to hear from the experts.

    Flash light or lighthead and external battery for riding in the cold winter?

    Discuss! {:

    Or if there is a resource I have missed please direct me to the resource and ignore this post.

  73. #373
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    190
    hey

    we have the opposite problem were batteries are killed by heat

    also this debate about whether lights hot to touch or not

    pretty simple i thought if light is that hot you cant touch while riding then its not doing that good a job of getting rid of heat

    so of course want a light that gets rid of it heat

    hot light it going to be heating up the internal meaning that light will have shorter life and run time since it cant get rid of the excess heat

    just from looking at some of the lights the real small ones being compact i think are going to have hard time of getting rid of heat unless they have good cooling design

  74. #374
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    129
    Bueyin:

    I'm not sure where you are located, but I'm in Chicagoland, so hopefully similar weather. I haven't had issues with cold affecting light performance, but I'm definitely no expert and I pretty much stop riding outside when snow is on the ground. I have done quite a few night rides in cold weather down into the 20's and 30's, almost always 90+ minutes up to 2+ hours. I have noticed no battery degradation on my setup: Baja Designs Strykr bar light with external battery pack mounted on the frame + C8 or XM-L flashlight with 18650 battery mounted in a lockblock to either the helmet or bar. I pack spare batteries for the flashlight and usually get two rides in on the BD before re-charging. Not one to wear a jacket but the cord on the BD is long enough to make it to a jacket pocket if needed. My flashlights go 2+ hours before starting to dim, the BD well over 4 hours with mix of high medium lighting, could probably stretch that to 4.5 or 5 hours.




    Quote Originally Posted by blueyin View Post
    Ok, serious winter commuter question:

    Which lights are going to be better for freezing or below temperatures, flash-light style or light head and external battery type?

    I commute 365 days, usually when I need my light is during the cold months, which are great for killing batteries. I had a Magicshine in the past and would use the extension cable to keep the battery in my jacket (close to my body). I have used a large cateye flashlight style as well with NIMH batts and that seemed to work out all right. But I want to hear from the experts.

    Flash light or lighthead and external battery for riding in the cold winter?

    Discuss! {:

    Or if there is a resource I have missed please direct me to the resource and ignore this post.

  75. #375
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    19
    Someone who you said is perhaps Mr.Olaf Schultz in Germany.
    He seems to have an integral sphere.
    So 291lm is not based on the current draw and the Luxeon Rebel LED specs.
    It is measured REAL lumen output from front of the light.
    His page and his measurement for Philips light.
    Fahrradseite auf www.enhydralutris.de
    LED-Bike Light Set BF48L20BBL

    And Philips claims that Philips SafeRideR LED batteriebetrieben is 270lm.
    Philips LED Fahrradbeleuchtung, Fahrradlicht ? Bike Light Batterie - Technische Daten

    But I also saw they described the same light as 220lm at somewhere, although I don't remember where it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by NiteBiker View Post
    I've read about somebody measuring this to be 291 lumens. Based on the current draw and the Luxeon Rebel LED specs, somebody else has estimated to be around 270 lumens. BTW, the philips webiste says "220 lumens on the beam", so that may be a honest figure taking into account optical losses? For a shaped beam like the Philips, lux (lumens per square meter) at a specified distance (e.g., 10m) makes more sense than lumens. It appears a *whole* lot brighter than the lumen spec suggests because it concentrating all the output on to the road. For example the Philips appears to illuminate the road better than the Sigma Power LED EVO 900 (claimed 900 lumens) and with superior throw as well!

  76. #376
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by mb323323 View Post
    Hey FC

    Did you publish the LUX readings yet. I didn't see it but maybe I missed something.

    And yes, you have to go out at least once w/ all the lights hooked up and at least 2 on the lid. With picts of course. It must just be laughable!!!!

    MB
    The lux readings are here in the summary page in 'hard to read' format.

    2012 Bike Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    fc

  77. #377
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Here's some new lights this week.

    The first light is the Niteflux Pmini12 and claims 1000 lumens. It has a wireless remote control switch that weighs less than 10 grams. It may be the finest helmet Light I've used to date.

    The second light is the Full Beam Fusion at 2000 lumens. The beam can only be described as 'full'. It is more powerful than the Exposure Six Pack.

    The third light represents the first light Cygolite has ever sent to any publication for review in the last 10 years. They do not trust 'independent' reviews. But our hard work has swayed them to reconsider.

    The last photo needs a caption

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2342.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2344.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2345.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2348.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2357.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2360.jpg  

    Last edited by fc; 10-20-2011 at 12:17 PM.

  78. #378
    Village Dirtbag
    Reputation: @dam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,286
    Can't wait to hear why the Pimini12 is so great.

    That fusion looks like it doesn't have much in the way of cooling!

  79. #379
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pethelman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    302
    Quote Originally Posted by @dam View Post
    Can't wait to hear why the Pimini12 is so great.
    Personally I think it's going to depend on what you're looking for in a headlamp.
    In terms of producing a good thrower, the 20mm triple spot optics coupled with the XP-G are sort of in that middle ground territory. Not great at distance throw and not that wide. Kind of a compromise of both. If you go to a wider angle lens, then all semblance of a distance spot is lost, so based on their web-site beam shots, it would appear that it is indeed the spot lens.

    Also, to get a true 1000 lumens out of the triple XP-G you'd need to drive all three LEDs with about 1.3 amps, which equates to 13.3 watts (give or take) dissipated just in the LEDs alone. My guess is that the 1000 lumens is a bit optimistic and that the control electronics are actually housed in the battery pack, so that they could "off-load" the additional heat dissipated by the controller as well as have some way to still control the light if the remote stopped working.

    How ever you slice it, it's still a lot of light (and WATTS) from a 35 gram housing. The bigger problem I see is the heat management issue. With that small of a package and relatively little mass and surface area, 12 watts is a ridiculous amount of heat to get rid of while simultaneously trying to protect the LEDs. If the "thermal protection circuit" is doing its job on this one, I have a feeling it will be quite busy cutting back, unless you're really moving or have manually cut it back to lower levels. Speaking of which, if they've off-loaded the control electronics, then there has to be some connection through the power wire to a temperature sensor in the light head. I'm starting to see why it's so expensive. Very innovative and not an easy thing to pull off.
    Last edited by pethelman; 10-20-2011 at 09:15 PM.

  80. #380
    Village Dirtbag
    Reputation: @dam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,286
    Jeez...maybe they should start building these things with cooling fans or heat pipes.

  81. #381
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    2,189
    The "fan" is you riding your bike.

    J.

  82. #382
    Meh
    Reputation: special k's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    285

    Nightlighting iBlaast IX?

    I'd love to see an iBlaast 9 included in the shootout. I've been curious as to how it would stack up against some of the other heavy hitters in this lineup. I understand they now have a US distributor as well.

    Any chance of that Francois?

    Thanks..

  83. #383
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    98
    You could probably get some idea of how the cooling performance is by testing the amount of time the casing takes to increase in temperature after the light is turned on. If the case never gets warm without any type of forced convection (air flow) then you can be fairly certain that the light is either not producing much heat, or it's trapping it inside.

    On the other hand, if the casing starts to get warm very quickly after the light is turned on, the internal rate of heat transfer is good.

    There is nothing good about a cool external casing unless the light isn't producing heat inside. If you feel heat outside, it's working. If you don't feel heat and there's nothing pulling heat away, it's just increasing the internal temperature.

    I think it's actually more safe to assume that the external rate of heat transfer between the casing and the air will be about as good as it looks like it will be, and the internal heat transfer rate is what's important to experiment with.

    -Eric

  84. #384
    Village Dirtbag
    Reputation: @dam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,286
    rccardude: You'd have to adjust that for the mass of the housing. A heavier housing will take longer to heat up.

    A cool casing could just indicate there is plenty of surface area carrying the heat away.

  85. #385
    mtbr member
    Reputation: GTR2ebike's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,872
    Magicshine MJ-872
    "A lot of people got burned" -Francois (you forgot to say no pun intended)

  86. #386
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    626
    Hey Francois, I think CygoLite should have sent you this one instead Cygolite Turbo 740 at JensonUSA.com

  87. #387
    Nox Trailbuilder
    Reputation: Retlaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    56
    Franciois,Thanks for doing this!

    Need correction on
    2012 Bike Lights Shootout – Trail Beam Pattern Photos | Mountain Bike Review | Page 3
    The Serfas True 1500 price is shown as $150. It should be $390.

    Great reviews, I'm seriously looking at the Niterider Minute 600 @$150 and Dinotte XML-3 @ $259 based on your reviews. Magicshine MJ-872 @ $185 is a killer deal too!
    Thanks again!!

  88. #388
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Retlaw View Post
    Franciois,Thanks for doing this!

    Need correction on
    2012 Bike Lights Shootout – Trail Beam Pattern Photos | Mountain Bike Review | Page 3
    The Serfas True 1500 price is shown as $150. It should be $390.

    Great reviews, I'm seriously looking at the Niterider Minute 600 @$150 and Dinotte XML-3 @ $259 based on your reviews. Magicshine MJ-872 @ $185 is a killer deal too!
    Thanks again!!
    Thank you! Fixed.

    fc

  89. #389
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    My first lumen-hour graph is released!! Useful?

    Cateye Nano Shot – 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    fc

  90. #390
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    My first lumen-hour graph is released!! Useful?

    Cateye Nano Shot – 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    fc
    Extremely useful for making an educated purchase. It's answers on of the questions I always have about lights; does it maintain a relatively constant brightness?

    Thanks a lot!

  91. #391
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,491
    I hate to be the naysayer in this review but I took a good look at these photo's:
    2012 Bike Lights Shootout – Trail Beam Pattern Photos | Mountain Bike Review | Page 3

    This group of photos just doesn't cut it. Sorry to have to say that but the choice of trail used in the photos here sucks. ( Looks as though the trees create a tunnel, on a curve to boot... ) There is no distance reference. Almost none of the lights in the 1000 to 1500 lumen range look to have an output worthy of note. The photo of the NR 750 is laughable. I'm sorry but I know lights with that much output will look much better in actual use than what these photos are showing. Even more surprising to me is that I seem to be the only one willing to say anything about it. If these were user photos you could let it go but this is a pro review. As such, something has to be said.

    (**edit : I see there is a written reference to the markers but you are only seeing a portion of the beam patterns which makes it look as though there is no throw. Nor can you easily tell where the point of projection is because of that fact. )

  92. #392
    RTM
    RTM is offline
    #1 Latex Salesman
    Reputation: RTM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1,845
    catman, you need to remember the review, in total, is meant to be a buyers guide. most people will use the photos as one of just many variables, narrow down their choices to a select few, then buy one light, be happy with their choice, and never look back. for that purpose, the intended purpose, Francios' reviews and photos are outstanding.

  93. #393
    fc
    fc is offline
    stoked Administrator
    Reputation: fc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1996
    Posts
    28,063
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I hate to be the naysayer in this review but I took a good look at these photo's:
    2012 Bike Lights Shootout – Trail Beam Pattern Photos | Mountain Bike Review | Page 3

    This group of photos just doesn't cut it. Sorry to have to say that but the choice of trail used in the photos here sucks....
    Holy moly, take it easy.

    That trail is very deep. Here's some context for it:

    - there is an orange 8.5x11 inch sheet at 100 feet
    - green marker at 200 feet
    - the trail is visible to around 300 feet.
    - there is a deep ditch on the left side
    - there is a canopy all throughout the trail. there is more nearby canopy/foliage on the left side.

    I think these photos are really good by themselves and they're great when used in conjunction with the backyard trail photos. The backyard photos show the shape of the beam and these demonstrate the spill and the throw of the light. You can really tell the difference between the Niterider 750, 1500 and 3000 for example. And the Niterider 3000, Baja Double Stryker and Lupine Betty are very distinct from each other as well.

    I'll put this description on that photo page to help the reader with background info.

    fc
    Last edited by fc; 10-23-2011 at 07:41 PM.

  94. #394
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do View Post
    I hate to be the naysayer in this review but I took a good look at these photo's:
    2012 Bike Lights Shootout – Trail Beam Pattern Photos | Mountain Bike Review | Page 3

    This group of photos just doesn't cut it. Sorry to have to say that but the choice of trail used in the photos here sucks. ( Looks as though the trees create a tunnel, on a curve to boot... ) There is no distance reference. Almost none of the lights in the 1000 to 1500 lumen range look to have an output worthy of note. The photo of the NR 750 is laughable. I'm sorry but I know lights with that much output will look much better in actual use than what these photos are showing. Even more surprising to me is that I seem to be the only one willing to say anything about it. If these were user photos you could let it go but this is a pro review. As such, something has to be said.

    (**edit : I see there is a written reference to the markers but you are only seeing a portion of the beam patterns which makes it look as though there is no throw. Nor can you easily tell where the point of projection is because of that fact. )
    I have to agree. I am planning on making a high end light purchase and was hoping for the beam reference shots to make my decision. Unfortunately, these don't help and the video reviews don't either due to the ambient light and just waving them around for a second with no controlled setting.
    I appreciate the work , but mainly the lumen measurement and weight are the only thing I'm getting between comparable models.

  95. #395
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pethelman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    302
    I have to say, from my own experience taking beam shots from multiple light heads, it's definitely not an easy task to get a very accurate (what your eyes really see) representation. Also, when comparing one light head to another, aiming is unbelievably important, and again, can be somewhat subjective to the naked eye, but then later you may find that there were subtle differences that you didn't see, but that were accentuated by the camera. It can appear that you've aimed two lights identically, but it's difficult to make a perfect and repeatable alignment, especially with different beam patterns.

    I think the trail shots definitely give some good comparative information, but I agree that it's difficult and probably imprudent to make any final purchasing decisions on these kinds of shots alone. Ultimately, you will have to make a determination with the actual light with YOUR eyes in your desired environment, which is why its good to look for lights that will let you have a no-risk trial period.

    It's easy to look at multiple beam shots and see differences, but whether those differences are really meaningful is the big question. The only thing that might add value to the beam shots would be to also take them from the perspective of the riders head location with a bit wider lens. Even the location of the light (bar or helmet), can make a big difference in this case.

    Beam shots are tough... thanks for making them available Francois!

  96. #396
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoHeadsBrewing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,879
    I think the beam shots are great and provide a useful basis for comparison. They show the differences in the beam patterns, and show which lights throw further down the trail. Coupled with the backyard shots, as Francois mentioned, they are a great resource.

    I don't see how you guys are saying they don't help. I'm not sure what you expected. If you want to test a high end light, go to a bike shop and take a demo out. All of the shops in my area offer that, especially for the high end lights like NR.

    There is absolutely nowhere else where so many lights have been tested, measured, and presented. Nice job and a big thank you to Francois and the MTBR team, keep up the good work! You all deserve a Pliny or three.
    "Got everything you need?"

  97. #397
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    The Urban 500 review is out.

    Light & Motion Urban 500, Urban 300 and Urban 180 – 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    Does anybody own this light yet?

    The only big downfall is this is not intended for mountain biking use and the 'yellow' side visibility lights cannot be turned off. They punched holes in the reflector to get that light out. I suppose there are workarounds.

    fc
    I own one and used it for a couple weeks then had problems. It was great when it worked and really bright. Then after about a week of use the light died within 15 minutes of a full charge on my commute. Upon further inspection I noticed a rattle inside when I shook it. I charged it and the battery indicator was flashing red (lowest) for 2 hours then all of a sudden went green skipping solid red and orange on the indicator light. Then when I turned it on the light on high would flicker. I took it back to the shop I bought it at and they sent it in over a week ago. I have not heard back as to the status and I am still without my light.

    I am reserving judgement until its resolved and will see how the light holds up over time. I really want this light to work since the mounting system makes it so easy to switch from bike to bike. The USB charging is nice since I can charge it while at work.



    UPDATE

    After waiting approximately 2 weeks to get my light back after it was sent in the light still flickers on high mode. Light and Motion sent the Urban 500 light back without fixing one of the problems. It is going to get sent back so they can try to fix it again. Not a happy customer.
    Last edited by tgoff; 10-30-2011 at 04:15 PM. Reason: UPDATE

  98. #398
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Cat-man-do's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    5,491
    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    catman, you need to remember the review, in total, is meant to be a buyers guide. most people will use the photos as one of just many variables, narrow down their choices to a select few, then buy one light, be happy with their choice, and never look back. for that purpose, the intended purpose, Francios' reviews and photos are outstanding.
    I understand your view. I am not dissing the review as a whole and I appreciate the time and effort that went into it.

    At the beginning of the review we were asked what we would like to see this year as the review was going to be expanded.There were requests for beam shot photos to taken on a trail. I'm not saying that the given trail photos are completely useless. I'm saying I didn't like the choice of trail. As far as the photos go I would of also preferred to see a couple more markers to show a more gradual progression of distance. Because the canopy is so low there is a lot light that is being reflected back to the camera. That undoubtedly is affecting the appearance of the photos. Cameras used for night photos tend not to be as forgiving as the human eye. Anyway, I feel the photos would of been better without the reflection off the low canopy. A trail a little more open would of been better.

    Francois, please don't take my criticism the wrong way. It is intended to be constructive and to provide improvement for future reviews. As for me I'm just a total night beam photo connoisseur. If I feel something could of been better I usually speak up, as such my standards are perhaps a bit higher then most. Thanks again for all the effort you put forth in doing the review. Over all it is very much appreciated.

  99. #399
    Trail Gnome
    Reputation: ray.vermette's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    457
    The forum is free, this review is free, and compiling all of this data must be a major undertaking.

    IMHO, the trail you selected for the beam shots is a good compromise given the range of terrain your readership rides in. High power lights with a long throw are going to have an obvious edge in the wide open, but in the woods, the advantage is not as obvious; our eyes adjust as reflected light goes up, and a light twice as bright as another may only be perceived to be marginally better when the trail is tight & overgrown.

    Thanks Francois for your hard work, it's much appreciated.

  100. #400
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    14
    Hey Francois,

    The Light & Motion Urban 500 looks really good. How would you characterize the beam? Is it more of a spot? How is the throw? I don't see the trail beamshot for this light. Did you forget to upload it?

    Thanks.

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Lights shootout 2011
    By fc in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 12-08-2010, 11:55 AM
  2. Lights shootout 2010 edition thread on Lights and Night Riding
    By odtexas in forum Lights DIY - Do It Yourself
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 11-20-2009, 05:17 AM
  3. Mtbr Lights Shootout Update
    By fc in forum Lights and Night Riding
    Replies: 65
    Last Post: 02-22-2009, 07:26 PM
  4. Lights shootout comments
    By fc in forum Lights DIY - Do It Yourself
    Replies: 277
    Last Post: 12-08-2008, 07:39 AM
  5. mtbr Shine-Off lights shootout is here.
    By fc in forum Lights DIY - Do It Yourself
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 01-26-2004, 09:02 PM

Members who have read this thread: 2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •