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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    It would seem that they have a very "eager" PR department and with their "spec" sheet being widely distributed to a lot of vendors, it might be difficult to make a correction.

    It does bring up a very good point though. With the competition being as tight as it is, and without some well defined "standards" in specifying bike light performance, you have to be a bit skeptical these days of most quoted specifications, unless there is supporting test data or explanation of how they arrived at the numbers.

    All the more why some objective testing such as this is valuable to the cycling community in general.
    Problem is it's working in their favor as people I know are believing it!

  2. #202
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    just making sure I am not missing anything... the link for the shootout at the top of the page only seems to have the Philips light on it so far. Is that what other are seeing or am in the in the wrong location?

    Thanks.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    just making sure I am not missing anything... the link for the shootout at the top of the page only seems to have the Philips light on it so far. Is that what other are seeing or am in the in the wrong location?

    Thanks.
    We're all waiting for more results, which, given the large number of participants, may take a while, but I think we may see some reviews coming out incrementally, such as the Philips, before it's all said and done.

  4. #204
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    Francois. Please try and get hold of a Nightlightning IBLAAST IX, it would be good to see your review of it. I am aware that it has a more powerful and better beam than Lupine and Exposures best offerings according to Mountain Bike Auatralia's light test. From personal experience it's a brilliant light, and completely overpowers my friends Exposure 6 pack, the difference is huge.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete N View Post
    Francois. Please try and get hold of a Nightlightning IBLAAST IX, it would be good to see your review of it. I am aware that it has a more powerful and better beam than Lupine and Exposures best offerings according to Mountain Bike Auatralia's light test. From personal experience it's a brilliant light, and completely overpowers my friends Exposure 6 pack, the difference is huge.
    No doubt it's bright, but here we have yet another example of "specs gone wild."

    From Nightlighting's web site they quote:
    2800 Lumens @ 2100ma drive
    3600 Lumens @ 3000ma drive
    9x Cree XP-G LEDs

    But they neglected to add the line... "until the XP-Gs go up in smoke."

    The maximum drive for the XP-G is 1500mA (page 1 of the spec).
    http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/xlampxp-g.pdf

    Just for sake of argument, let's say you drive all nine LEDs at the max rated 1.5 amps.
    This gives us a theoretical lumen output of:
    463*9 = 4167 lumens
    De-rated by about 18% for heating and lens losses gives us:
    3417 lumens
    So at least they're in the ball park for the max lumen count.

    But here's the kicker.. at those levels you're burning OVER 50 WATTS, and drawing more than 3 amps continuously out of the battery pack. This is generally more than the safe limit for the typical 18650-based packs.

    Rather than trying to blast the LEDs at their maximum drive for an overly bright output, I would prefer to take the approach of running more LEDs with LESS drive, to get them down into the more efficient band of operation and extend the run times. Oh well. Given the look of the mount, they probably built this mostly with of off-road vehicles in mind.

  6. #206
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    more testing...

    I'll publish something tomorrow.

    On Friday, I'll go to Lezyne and use their integrating sphere.

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-321612_10150344360603213_611473212_8129088_467750343_n.jpg  


  7. #207
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    I think you can fit one more on there Francois. LOL!!!

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    Rather than trying to blast the LEDs at their maximum drive for an overly bright output, I would prefer to take the approach of running more LEDs with LESS drive, to get them down into the more efficient band of operation and extend the run times.
    This is, apparently, the approach Dinotte took with the dual quad 1200L+. They certainly could have wrung out mucho mas lumens from 8 xpg's.
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    more testing...

    I'll publish something tomorrow.

    On Friday, I'll go to Lezyne and use their integrating sphere.

    fc
    Gee - that Exposure's a fat little bundle of whoop-de-doo init!
    But where's the DesignShine? I'm sure you could fit that in there somewhere!

    Savvas.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by savvas View Post
    Gee - that Exposure's a fat little bundle of whoop-de-doo init!
    But where's the DesignShine? I'm sure you could fit that in there somewhere!

    Savvas.
    Looks like this was the "self-contained" test bed with no external batteries allowed. I'm sure riding with that many beams off the front is something to behold.

  11. #211
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    it was ok.

    fc
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  12. #212
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    You can always run very powerful lights in mid or lower power mode and extend easily the run times by many hours. The XPG or XML (xml slightly more efficient) LEDs are very efficient in lower power mode.

  13. #213
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    IBLAAST IX clarification

    [QUOTE=pethelman;8522875]No doubt it's bright, but here we have yet another example of "specs gone wild."

    From Nightlighting's web site they quote:
    2800 Lumens @ 2100ma drive
    3600 Lumens @ 3000ma drive
    9x Cree XP-G LEDs

    But they neglected to add the line... "until the XP-Gs go up in smoke." end quote''

    PETHELMAN

    Their website is a little misleading. The XPG's are actually driven in sets of three, each triple is driven at either 700ma, giving the quoted figure of @2100 or at 1000ma giving the quoted figure of 3000ma, so they are actually being run well within their 1500ma max.
    The figures they are quoting lumen wise are not taking into account the expected losses,
    however, and their 400lm per led at 1000ma, a little optimistic, at 1200ma yes. The mount, although basic works perfectly well. This light is brilliant, so much so all my riding friends are now looking at buying them and the one with the six pack is
    looking for a buyer. The group includes all the usual favourites from Lupine and Hope. I have no alliance to them, I live on the other side of the world. Just stating what a great
    light they make, compared to the other much more expensive lights I and MTB Australia
    have compared it to, nothing more or less. I would just like to get Francois's thoughts.

    The other thing you can do with these lights is change the driver settings in an admin mode built within the light set up, really easy by just pressing the button. This allows you
    to actually run them at 1200ma per triple so increasing the output further but at the
    expense of some run time. They also have loads of heatsink and lower output if things
    were to get too hot, and then power up again when cooled enough.
    I don't usually go for boutique, just because of the perception that it is better and have stayed away when it comes to bikes. I just really rate this product.

    From a 4.4ah battery pack I get 1hr 55mins at 1000ah drive. I have had my original Iblaast for over two years and it's been faultless, the IX for a year and again faultless.
    You could mark the brackets down for aesthetics that's for sure but they're easy to use and solid.
    Last edited by Pete N; 10-10-2011 at 05:15 AM.

  14. #214
    fc
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    These are the lights I have and at the bottom are the ones that are due to arrive soon.

    Light Flashlight Price Lumen
    Baja Designs Double Stryker $450.00 1800
    Baja Designs Stryker II $300.00 950
    Baja Designs Stryker SL $340.00 950
    DesignShine DS-1300 $280.00 1300
    Dinotte 400L $209.00 400
    Dinotte XML-1 $169.00 400
    Dinotte XML-3 $259.00 1200
    Dinottel 1200L $350.00 1200
    Exposure Diablo Yes $300.00 975
    Exposure Joystick Yes $220.00 325
    Exposure MaxxD Yes $500.00 1285
    Exposure Six Pack Yes $600.00 1925
    Exposure Toro Yes $400.00 975
    Jet Lites A-51 $200.00 700
    Light and Motion Seca 1400 $700.00 1400
    Light and Motion Urban 500 $160.00 500
    Light and Motion vis360 $170.00 110
    Lupine Betty $930.00 2050/2300/2600
    Lupine Betty TL Yes 2050/2300/2600
    Lupine Piko 3 $330.00 750
    Lupine Piko TL Max Yes $400.00 750
    Lupine Piko TL Mini Yes 550
    Lupine Wilma 7 $695.00 1200/1300/1500
    Lupine Wilma TL Yes $549.00 1200/1300/1500
    Magicshine MJ-872 $185.00 1600
    Niterider Mako 1 $40.00 100
    Niterider Mako 2 $50.00 130
    Niterider Minewt 600 Cordless Yes $150.00 600
    Niterider Pro 1500 $350.00 1500
    Niterider Pro 3000 $700.00 3000
    Niterider Pro 750 $250.00 750
    Philips SafeRide Yes $200.00 400
    Princeton Tec Push Yes $50.00 100
    Serfas True 1500 $390.00 1500
    Serfas True 500 Yes $150.00 500
    Tiny Sun Lights Sport2700x 2700


    Pending:
    Jet Lites Dual A-51 $300.00 1400
    Blackburn
    Cateye Sumo 2 $450.00 1000
    Cateye Sumo 3 1600
    Cateye Nanoshot Yes $100.00 250
    Cateye Econom 540 RC Yes $65.00
    Niteflux Redzone 4
    Niteflux Pmini12 Yes 1000
    Niteflux Pmax24 2000
    Magicshine
    Cygolite TridenX 750 OSP $350.00 750
    Cygolite MityCross 480 OSP $250.00 480
    Fullbeam Fusion Yes 400 gbp 2100
    Fullbeam Night-Nemesis 550 gbp 2500
    Hope R4 1000
    Bikeray
    Nova Sport

  15. #215
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    Not to be nosy, but what does the "yes" mean.... possibly that you have a review in the wings waiting?

  16. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete N View Post
    The XPG's are actually driven in sets of three, each triple is driven at either 700ma, giving the quoted figure of @2100 or at 1000ma giving the quoted figure of 3000ma, so they are actually being run well within their 1500ma max.
    Hey Pete, thanks for clearing that up. The 700mA drive works quite well for these triples, so I'm glad to see that's how it's configured. No need to go any higher. I build a twin (double-triple) version and it's plenty bright. But you're right, they got a little "happy" with their lumen estimates.

    @700mA the theoretical output from 9 XP-Gs would be:
    139*1.85*9 = 2314
    OR
    roughly 1900 out the front. But who's counting anyway... lumen counts are becoming increasingly irrelevant. It's much more now about form/fit/function, which includes beam characteristics, mounting options, battery life, ease of use, and maybe to a smaller degree, aesthetics on the bike. JMO.

  17. #217
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyin View Post
    Not to be nosy, but what does the "yes" mean.... possibly that you have a review in the wings waiting?
    "Yes" means it's a flashlight style bike light.

    fc

  18. #218
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    A few reviews have started to come out in the UK mags and the lupine's are getting scored very low mainly cause they are so expensive.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #219
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    Can't wait to see the reviews on the Serfas True 500/1500... My LBS stocks them and from just playing with them they seemed awesome. Lights felt very balanced and love the fact that it is a cylinder style batter that can be removed and replaced quickly and easily.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by spankone View Post
    A few reviews have started to come out in the UK mags and the lupine's are getting scored very low mainly cause they are so expensive.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Do you have any links to these reviews you can share?

  21. #221
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    http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...light-11-45287

    http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/catego...light-11-45296

    Sorry if this is against the rules.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    These are the lights I have and at the bottom are the ones that are due to arrive soon.

    Light Flashlight Price Lumen
    Baja Designs Double Stryker $450.00 1800
    Baja Designs Stryker II $300.00 950
    Baja Designs Stryker SL $340.00 950
    DesignShine DS-1300 $280.00 1300
    Dinotte 400L $209.00 400
    Dinotte XML-1 $169.00 400
    Dinotte XML-3 $259.00 1200
    Dinottel 1200L $350.00 1200
    Exposure Diablo Yes $300.00 975
    Exposure Joystick Yes $220.00 325
    Exposure MaxxD Yes $500.00 1285
    Exposure Six Pack Yes $600.00 1925
    Exposure Toro Yes $400.00 975
    Jet Lites A-51 $200.00 700
    Light and Motion Seca 1400 $700.00 1400
    Light and Motion Urban 500 $160.00 500
    Light and Motion vis360 $170.00 110
    Lupine Betty $930.00 2050/2300/2600
    Lupine Betty TL Yes 2050/2300/2600
    Lupine Piko 3 $330.00 750
    Lupine Piko TL Max Yes $400.00 750
    Lupine Piko TL Mini Yes 550
    Lupine Wilma 7 $695.00 1200/1300/1500
    Lupine Wilma TL Yes $549.00 1200/1300/1500
    Magicshine MJ-872 $185.00 1600
    Niterider Mako 1 $40.00 100
    Niterider Mako 2 $50.00 130
    Niterider Minewt 600 Cordless Yes $150.00 600
    Niterider Pro 1500 $350.00 1500
    Niterider Pro 3000 $700.00 3000
    Niterider Pro 750 $250.00 750
    Philips SafeRide Yes $200.00 400
    Princeton Tec Push Yes $50.00 100
    Serfas True 1500 $390.00 1500
    Serfas True 500 Yes $150.00 500
    Tiny Sun Lights Sport2700x 2700


    Pending:
    Jet Lites Dual A-51 $300.00 1400
    Blackburn
    Cateye Sumo 2 $450.00 1000
    Cateye Sumo 3 1600
    Cateye Nanoshot Yes $100.00 250
    Cateye Econom 540 RC Yes $65.00
    Niteflux Redzone 4
    Niteflux Pmini12 Yes 1000
    Niteflux Pmax24 2000
    Magicshine
    Cygolite TridenX 750 OSP $350.00 750
    Cygolite MityCross 480 OSP $250.00 480
    Fullbeam Fusion Yes 400 gbp 2100
    Fullbeam Night-Nemesis 550 gbp 2500
    Hope R4 1000
    Bikeray
    Nova Sport



    Francois, what about GEMINI TITAN & XERA?

    i was waitng for a review of those.

    Regards

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by mochodurazo View Post
    Francois, what about GEMINI TITAN & XERA?

    i was waitng for a review of those.

    Regards
    Yes, Gemini is coming. I think them and Bikeray experienced some delivery delays so I don't have them yet.

    fc

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Yes, Gemini is coming. I think them and Bikeray experienced some delivery delays so I don't have them yet.

    fc
    No love for your big advertiser nitelights with their 1200lm XML destroyer?

  25. #225
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    This year's Niteflux lights look stunningly good. They have the smallest helmet light (compared to which the Lupine Piko is just a brick on your head), a bright light with a really nice beam pattern (based on the beamshots), REMOTE CONTROL - something which Lupine seem to have abandoned (shame on them), and an almost perfect taillight.
    I am excited to read about these lights in the review.

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    Hey Pete, thanks for clearing that up. The 700mA drive works quite well for these triples, so I'm glad to see that's how it's configured. No need to go any higher. I build a twin (double-triple) version and it's plenty bright. But you're right, they got a little "happy" with their lumen estimates.

    @700mA the theoretical output from 9 XP-Gs would be:
    139*1.85*9 = 2314
    OR
    roughly 1900 out the front. But who's counting anyway... lumen counts are becoming increasingly irrelevant. It's much more now about form/fit/function, which includes beam characteristics, mounting options, battery life, ease of use, and maybe to a smaller degree, aesthetics on the bike. JMO.
    I too rate this light very highly & am disappointed that Nightlightning have never featured in any of the past mtbr light shootouts. I've mentioned the twin IBlaast IX's I run on my handlebars in several posts before, but never seem to get much response to the posts.
    It's a shame that more people who are in the market for a high end product don't seriously check these lights out.
    Don't be put off by the photos of "agricultural" helmet mounts etc on their webpage. They have others that are much better if you ask them. All I had to do was tell Eric (the owner of the company) what I wanted & he came through with the goods!
    I got two light-heads with a custom combination of optics, custom mounts, one 6.6 Ah batt, another 15.6 Ah batt, different drivers (German made Recoms I think) driving each of the six 20mm triples at a max of 1.2 amps, all for way less than the price of one Betty.
    And one of these is easily brighter than the XPG version of the Betty (maybe the XML Betty will beat it?). I know this because I've seen them side by side whilst riding with my mates - we stopped & did a comparision, and one IBlaast IX on max was noticably brighter than one Betty.
    Eric is an electrical engineer by trade. The bike light side of their company is small compared to their comercial lighting section. He is a very keen mountain biker though.
    Forgive me for going on about them so much. I also live in another country from them, & am not associated to them in any way. But like Pete N am a customer who rates their stuff very highly.

    Cheers, Digger.

    p.s. Penthelman, you seem to be very educated on all things electronic. What would be your best estimate of the total OTF lumens my lights would have? Just for my own curiosity - thanks.

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldAusDigger View Post
    What would be your best estimate of the total OTF lumens my lights would have?
    That would be OMG, WTF total lumens.
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  28. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldAusDigger View Post
    p.s. Penthelman, you seem to be very educated on all things electronic. What would be your best estimate of the total OTF lumens my lights would have? Just for my own curiosity - thanks.
    Assuming they're using the "R5" group for the XP-G (which is likely) then the min rated luminous flux from a single die driven at 350mA is 139 lumens (+/- 7% tolerance).

    As you drive them harder, there's a 2nd order curve that characterized the "multiplication" factor:
    @700mA multiply the output by 1.85
    @1000mA multiply by 2.5
    @1200mA multiply by 2.8

    Now, you do have to take into account that as you crank up the watts, you're moving further out on the heat loss curve, which fortunately for the XPGs is not too steep. Let's assume maybe a 60C (140F) junction temp which cuts the output by 8%. Next, realize that the triple SPOT optics for the XP-G are only 87.3% efficient. So the final calculation for your light's max output at 1.2amp drive would be:
    139*9*2.8*0.92*0.873= 2813 (give or take).

    If the assumptions on the heating are too low, then you could easily lose another 5 to 8% due to heat. Now, replace one of those XP-G triples with an XP-E and it'd really be the Cat's meow.

  29. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    This year's Niteflux lights look stunningly good. They have the smallest helmet light (compared to which the Lupine Piko is just a brick on your head), a bright light with a really nice beam pattern (based on the beamshots), REMOTE CONTROL - something which Lupine seem to have abandoned (shame on them), and an almost perfect taillight.
    I am excited to read about these lights in the review.
    I have the Tiny Niteflux now. They are stunning. The wireless remote control switch is just too cool.

    fc

  30. #230
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    Ok, the publishing has started in earnest. There's three big articles coming out today:
    Lupine Piko TL Max | Mountain Bike Review

    And expect at least one light day.

    On Friday, I'll spend the day a day with the Integrating Sphere at Lezyne in San Luis Obispo. Their lights are not available yet but they are allowing me use of theyr $30k machine and engineer.

    We will measure peak output of all the lights. We will also come up with 5 minute light output graphs of all the lights.

    They are interested in measuring light output of each light throughout its whole runtime but that would just take too much time. I'll leave a few lights with them to do that and we'll see if that information is useful.

    fc
    Last edited by fc; 10-11-2011 at 03:47 PM.

  31. #231
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    Looking to hear more on this niteflux and how it and man other lights stack up against the lupine family. I'm prepared to buy many lights and most likely much of my decisions will be based on the reviews that will be coming out from Francois.

  32. #232
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    Oh, please comment in the articles themselves using the Facebook comments engine. I will respond to questions there.

    I need you smart peoples starting discussions around each light review article in the article itself.

    thanks,
    francis
    Last edited by fc; 10-11-2011 at 05:38 PM.

  33. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    Assuming they're using the "R5" group for the XP-G (which is likely) then the min rated luminous flux from a single die driven at 350mA is 139 lumens (+/- 7% tolerance).

    As you drive them harder, there's a 2nd order curve that characterized the "multiplication" factor:
    @700mA multiply the output by 1.85
    @1000mA multiply by 2.5
    @1200mA multiply by 2.8

    Now, you do have to take into account that as you crank up the watts, you're moving further out on the heat loss curve, which fortunately for the XPGs is not too steep. Let's assume maybe a 60C (140F) junction temp which cuts the output by 8%. Next, realize that the triple SPOT optics for the XP-G are only 87.3% efficient. So the final calculation for your light's max output at 1.2amp drive would be:
    139*9*2.8*0.92*0.873= 2813 (give or take).

    If the assumptions on the heating are too low, then you could easily lose another 5 to 8% due to heat. Now, replace one of those XP-G triples with an XP-E and it'd really be the Cat's meow.
    Thanks Pethelman.
    So for two of them the total OTF lumens should be up around 5600. One of my light-heads has all three of the 20mm triples with the spot optics (can't remember what deg angle they are) and the other has one with 40 deg & two with 25 deg. So I'm assuming that there would be slightly more net loss with the wider optics.
    Either way I'm happy with the end result. I've also got a thumb activated remote controller as well, & very rarely run at full power.
    I also run one of mattewm's Gili 6's as my helmet light.

    FS; Double, Triple (or single) XP-G Host 2200 Lumen

    So I think I wont need to upgrade for a little while yet

    That is until the dreaded lumen lusting illness gets me again

  34. #234
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    Really enjoying everything so far, francois!! Keep'em coming! Being new to night riding, I'm glued waiting for the next review to come out so I can make a decision and be ready for DST.

  35. #235
    fc
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    I have a better location for trail shots!!

    Check here daily for updates on shootout:
    Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review


    1) philips saferide
    2) exposure joystick
    3) exposure diablo
    4) exposure sixpack
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2055.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2052.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2053.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2054.jpg  


  36. #236
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    I don't have a Facebook account.

    I already wanted to ask about heat dissipation, because I have a gut feeling that the lights running cooler are not necessarily better in this regard. They could be running cooler (on the outside) because they are insulated more, so that they are frying the leds inside.

    Of course this is not always the case, eg. if you underpower the leds they might be cooler to start with, so there is genuinely less heat. But a warm light case is definitely a sign that the whole case is acting as a heat dissipator IMHO. Which is good.

    Might be worth asking the people in the DIY forum.

  37. #237
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    You convinced me to get the Exposure Diablo and its been great. My friend is planning on getting the new Diablo Mk3 but whats weird is the 2012 exposure claims to increase output vs 2011 but measures lower on the Ambient Lux number (63 vs 59).

  38. #238
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    francois,

    Thanks for the trail shots. It will be useful if you have markers laid out at say 25m, 50m, 75m and 100m on the trail to estimate the light's throw.

    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I have a better location for trail shots!!

    Check here daily for updates on shootout:


    1) philips saferide
    2) exposure joystick
    3) exposure diablo
    4) exposure sixpack

  39. #239
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    So far, it looks like the cost / lumen battle is going to NiteRider.

  40. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Huston View Post
    So far, it looks like the cost / lumen battle is going to NiteRider.
    ... and so is the grams/lumen rating. That thing is a tank.

    J.

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I have a better location for trail shots!!

    http://forums.mtbr.com/attachments/l...t-img_2054.jpg
    I like how it really shows the width and spread of the light for mountain bike riding. That ditch on the right that looks like a cliff really brings the point home, lol.

    I don't like how it doesn't seem to show any more throw distance than the backyard shots.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    ... and so is the grams/lumen rating. That thing is a tank.

    J.
    Sometimes it is good to have a tank on your side, especially in a lot of traffic and bad weather.

  43. #243
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    The beam shots shows how effectively the Philips reflector is able to focus all of its 270 lumens onto the surface. It puts out much more light on the surface than the Exposure Joystick at 325 lumens and even the Exposure Diablo at 975 lumens! The Philips beam is not only brighter, but also wider.

    The Exposure Sixpack with a whopping 1925 lumens appears brighter on the surface, but the Philips is not embarrassed by it when you consider surface illumination alone.

    Clearly the Diablo lights are meant for MTBing and the Philips is for the road so I don't mean to compare apples to oranges here. What I am trying to point out here is the effectiveness of an asymmetrical beam reflector like the one in the Philips for road use.

    Color Temperature: many of the LED lights have a cooler white light as compared to the Philips, which is supposed to be "Crystal White" - this is warmer than cool white, but not as warm as "Neutral White". Warmer whites show better contrast; cooler whites wash out detail.

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I have a better location for trail shots!!

    Check here daily for updates on shootout:



    1) philips saferide
    2) exposure joystick
    3) exposure diablo
    4) exposure sixpack

  44. #244
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    hey Francios, wanted to offer a few observations on the videos you've posted thus far.

    as with previous years I really appreciate the unscripted style. makes your reviews much more interesting and honest than most I've seen

    the Lupine review seemed a bit short. I can't speak for all, but I enjoy your thoughts on the packaging, the case, mounting options, chargers, build quality, etc. no reason to rush on my account!

    just my thoughts so far. as always, I appreciate the effort.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by leesnuts View Post
    You convinced me to get the Exposure Diablo and its been great. My friend is planning on getting the new Diablo Mk3 but whats weird is the 2012 exposure claims to increase output vs 2011 but measures lower on the Ambient Lux number (63 vs 59).
    Good point. I am rechecking those early numbers. I don't understand either. When I go test at the Integrating Sphere on Friday I'll have better data.

    fc

  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    I like how it really shows the width and spread of the light for mountain bike riding. That ditch on the right that looks like a cliff really brings the point home, lol.

    I don't like how it doesn't seem to show any more throw distance than the backyard shots.
    Yep, I am hauling all 40 lights tonight to this location.

    The ditch is epic!!!

    I'll try to do distance markers. I think my gps can give me distance.

    fc

  47. #247
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    GPS is only accurate to +/- 13' or so. Just get a 100' rope and put a mark on it every 25'.

    J.

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiteBiker View Post
    The beam shots shows how effectively the Philips reflector is able to focus all of its 270 lumens onto the surface. It puts out much more light on the surface than the Exposure Joystick at 325 lumens and even the Exposure Diablo at 975 lumens! The Philips beam is not only brighter, but also wider.

    The Exposure Sixpack with a whopping 1925 lumens appears brighter on the surface, but the Philips is not embarrassed by it when you consider surface illumination alone.

    Clearly the Diablo lights are meant for MTBing and the Philips is for the road so I don't mean to compare apples to oranges here. What I am trying to point out here is the effectiveness of an asymmetrical beam reflector like the one in the Philips for road use.

    Color Temperature: many of the LED lights have a cooler white light as compared to the Philips, which is supposed to be "Crystal White" - this is warmer than cool white, but not as warm as "Neutral White". Warmer whites show better contrast; cooler whites wash out detail.

    Good observations! The color should be accurate on these as I've learned that 'Daylight White Balance' is the key for this camera. 'Auto' white balance is awful as it changes the color.

    These photos actually reveal a lot more than the naked eye as the eyes adjust the color and adjust to the brightness of the light. I'm learning more by looking at them.

    fc

    p.s. Cateye just arrived at my door. The Nanoshot (on the right) is a work of art!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-297073_10150347945153213_611473212_8146378_134396506_n.jpg  


  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiteBiker View Post
    Clearly the Diablo lights are meant for MTBing and the Philips is for the road ...
    Just as an aside...
    The "low" beam concept is fantastic for night time and I think Philips just opened the door for a whole lot more innovation in this area. However, during the day, I want as much "high beam" light getting out and "up" and getting in as many eyes as possible. I can almost guarantee you that the next step in the evolution will be to include a switchable forward firing LED in the middle of the reflector for an effective "high" beam function... dang it.

  50. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    GPS is only accurate to +/- 13' or so. Just get a 100' rope and put a mark on it every 25'.

    J.
    Or stop by Home Depot!

    Empire 300 ft. Open Reel Fiberglass Tape Measure - $29.96
    300 ft. Open Reel Fiberglass Tape Measure-6830 at The Home Depot



    Or...

    Rolatape 12 in. Aluminum Measuring Wheel - $59.96
    12 in. Aluminum Measuring Wheel-RT312 at The Home Depot



    Though honestly, one could probably just buy a $10 25ft tape measure and put down a cone every 25 feet, to. 300 feet is about the length of an american football field...I don't think even the Niterider 3,000 would go further than that, lol...right?

  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    Or stop by Home Depot!
    Yes, brilliant!!

    It seems like I'm getting a few lights well over 3000 lumens. Don't ask me why

    fc

  52. #252
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    Can someone explain to me the relationship between candlepower and lumens? Is there a translation formula?

    fc

  53. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Can someone explain to me the relationship between candlepower and lumens? Is there a translation formula?

    fc
    according to Wolfram, "cp (candlepowers) and lm (lumens) are not compatible" linky

    probably similar to how watts and kWh are not compatible.
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by randyharris View Post
    according to Wolfram, "cp (candlepowers) and lm (lumens) are not compatible" linky

    probably similar to how watts and kWh are not compatible.
    from the site: Lumens, Footcandles, Candlepower, Measuring Light Output

    Candlepower is a rating of light output at the source, using English measurements.
    Foot-candles are a measurement of light at an illuminated object.
    Lumens are a metric equivalent to foot-candles in that they are measured at an object you want to illuminate.
    Divide the number of lumens you have produced, or are capable of producing, by 12.57 and you get the candlepower equivalent of that light source.
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

  55. #255
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    The main page is up.
    2012 Bike Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    It will be updated daily!!

  56. #256
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    Francios, is that the old Dinotte 1200L before the driver upgrade? Just asking as your measurements of just 88 lux is far short of the 105 the XML3 measured. Randyharris was pretty thorough in his review and claimed that the new version was brighter than the XML3 and his photo's showed that as well? I'm a bit surprised on that outcome.

  57. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    Francios, is that the old Dinotte 1200L before the driver upgrade? Just asking as your measurements of just 88 lux is far short of the 105 the XML3 measured. Randyharris was pretty thorough in his review and claimed that the new version was brighter than the XML3 and his photo's showed that as well? I'm a bit surprised on that outcome.
    Yes, both these lights are the latest from Dinotte and received last week. We are still investigating as well. More shooting tonight Integrating Sphere on Friday.

    The 1200L is on par with other 1200 lumen lights. The XML-3 seems to be putting out about 1400 lumens.

    Treat these numbers as preliminary. Oct. 31 is the final deadline for all the photos and data.

    Here's a good page with historical data too:
    Bike Lights Shootout Light Meter Measurements | Mountain Bike Review

    fc

  58. #258
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    Thats a lot of light from a quality company for just $250. Cheers!!!

  59. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    The main page is up.
    2012 Bike Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

    It will be updated daily!!
    sadly, this is a big day for me. I'm such a nerd.

  60. #260
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    So far, it looks like the cost / lumen battle is going to NiteRider.
    ... and so is the grams/lumen rating. That thing is a tank.
    The NiteRider mount is relatively secure but is slightly confusing at first as to how it releases.

    Result: In adjusting the direction of the beam mid-commute, I dropped my payload all over the asphalt.

    Damage? Nope. The NiteRider takes a licking and keeps on ticking.. It IS a tank, no doubt about it.

  61. #261
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    It's FAR heavier than those it competes with. For example, the Lupine Betty at about 2600 lumens weighs just about half of what the Niterider does - 812g vs 450g. That's a big difference, nearly a pound.

    J.

  62. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Yes, both these lights are the latest from Dinotte and received last week. We are still investigating as well. More shooting tonight Integrating Sphere on Friday.

    The 1200L is on par with other 1200 lumen lights. The XML-3 seems to be putting out about 1400 lumens.

    Treat these numbers as preliminary. Oct. 31 is the final deadline for all the photos and data.

    Here's a good page with historical data too:
    Bike Lights Shootout Light Meter Measurements | Mountain Bike Review

    fc
    Francois - you might want to check the numbers on the Dinotte 1200L (unless it's the old 1200L) and the Dinotte XML-3. Dinotte says the 1200L is brighter than the XML-3 and should be similar to 1500 lumen lights. Instead, your numbers say the opposite.

    J.

  63. #263
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    John, We've crossed wires. I'm talking about the NiteRider MiNewt 600 Cordless. It's 188 grams.

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    Francois - you might want to check the numbers on the Dinotte 1200L (unless it's the old 1200L) and the Dinotte XML-3. Dinotte says the 1200L is brighter than the XML-3 and should be similar to 1500 lumen lights. Instead, your numbers say the opposite.

    J.
    Yes, I've talked to Rob at Dinotte about this. I'm finding that the XML-3 is brighter. The 1200L is wider for sure but the XML-3 is brighter and has farther throw.

    It is possible that the Dinotte 1200L is not getting measured properly by my lux meter setup since the beam is so wide and spilling on to my walls. I'll know for sure after Friday after a true lab session.

    I am finding that any light using the Cree XML are devastatingly bright. The light manufacturers don't even fully know how bright their XML lights are so they are interested in my results.

    These are my two photos from tonight. There is an orange card at 100 feet and a green card at 200 feet on the left of the trail.

    photo 1: Dinotte 1200L
    photo 2: Dinotte XML-3
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2116.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2117.jpg  


  65. #265
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    IMHO NR Pro 3000 wins over the Lupine Betty 2600

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    It's FAR heavier than those it competes with. For example, the Lupine Betty at about 2600 lumens weighs just about half of what the Niterider does - 812g vs 450g. That's a big difference, nearly a pound.

    J.
    Lupine website says the Betty 2600 is 460 grams (1.01lbs) and has a 7.5 amp hour Li-Ion battery. Cost $930

    Niterider website says Pro 3000 is 812 grams (1.79lbs) and has a 11.6 amp hour Li-Ion battery.
    Cost $700.

    The Niterider Pro 3000 battery has 4.1 amp hours more capacity than the Betty. That is a lot more battery capacity for 3/4 pound more in weight.

    I'm not sure if the website info is accurate or if the weights include mounts or not but that is what is posted.


    I'd prefer to get a higher capacity battery and brighter light and at $230 cheaper....... 3 reasons to get the NR Pro 3000 over the lighter weight Betty 2600

  66. #266
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    The Betty puts out 2600 lm for 2 hours @ 370g (Smart Core Battery)
    the Niderider puts out 3000 lm for 1,5 hours @ 812 g.

    Right, barely a difference here.

  67. #267
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    Sorry for my ignorance, I just stumbled across this thread for the first time. Will this information and results turn into a spreadsheet or database so we can pinpoint the best light for specific requirements/categories? I looked at the 2012 Bike Lights Shootout page and this test is fantastic and appears to be very thorough!

  68. #268
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    Francois - I saw main page.
    I am looking forward to see other reviews which are pending currently.
    By the way, why is Philips SafeRide's claimed lumen so high 400 lumen?
    I bought it from Germany and it is announced as 270 lumen by Manufacturer(PHILIPS).
    On the web forum in Germany, someone measured it's real Lumen by an integral sphere and it was measured as 291 lumen, I remember.

    The USA version is announced as 400 lumen?

  69. #269
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    What happened to the CygoLite lights? Did they back out last minute? It would be nice if they included their Expillion 400 cordless style along with the Turbo 740 as they seem like solid choices for the price.

  70. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by djembe975 View Post
    What happened to the CygoLite lights? Did they back out last minute? It would be nice if they included their Expillion 400 cordless style along with the Turbo 740 as they seem like solid choices for the price.
    Yeah! The >$200 field has fierce competition going for it. I'm hoping Fc will include real runtimes not just whats on the package.

    Fc already said that the Surfas 500 isnt quite as bright as the Niterider Minewt 600 or the Light and motion Urban 500.

    I think were going to have to wait for the beam patterns on the under $200 lights.

    I'm really curious how the Dinotte XML-1 will hold up against the flashlight lights. As I thought I read somewhere that some of Dinotte lights are upgradeable later in their lifespan. (or am I miss-remembering that?)

    Too bad about the expillion 400. Oh well!
    Last edited by blueyin; 10-13-2011 at 12:36 PM.

  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I have a better location for trail shots!!

    Check here daily for updates on shootout:
    Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review


    1) philips saferide
    I was looking at this, and I realized - it seems like this should be pointed up a bit more. I have a Cyo (similar because it also uses a shaped beam) and the ideal place to point it is for the top of the beam to hit at about an average persons waist level, but the beam appears to be pointed further down. The reason I noticed is it seemed like the light should light up further down the trail.

    Just my thoughts.

  72. #272
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    Paul, there was a debate over exactly this earlier in the thread, with photos from Francois' back yard. It appears that if you tilt the Philips beam further up, it leaves a darkened gap nearer to the source (just ahead of the bike). That means you'd lose track of obstacles in the trail/road surface. Seen here, when tilted down instead, it also does a weak job of defining the trench at the left side of the image.

    It appears users will have a challenge adjusting the beam to hit the sweet spot. On the other hand, with a static image you're not factoring in the usual handlebar wobble. I'm sure you'd get at least intermittent glimpses of obstacles -- immediately ahead, or off on the periphery like the trench.

    But are you going to see the low-hanging tree limbs overhead? That's the most important question, and why I'm wary of shaped beams. I've been glad for the spread of my own light without a shaped beam (a MiNewt 600) as it's shown me a few low-hanging bushes I might have ridden into.

  73. #273
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    There was a debate earlier in the thread, I just think that in my experience the light head ended up to far down, I think it's meant to be pointed up somewhat further, even if that does leave a larger dark gap in front of the bike. I mean these are just my thoughts, but recently I've been tuning the position of my Lumotec Cyo another shaped beam light and that has been the best light position - for commuting. I just think if it was pointed a little bit more up it will light up further down the trail in this pic.

    I certainly don't expect Francois to go back and reshoot it or anything though.

    As Francois said in his review, I don't think that a shaped beam light by itself would be good for mountain biking. It could be good in combination with a headlamp that would illuminate stuff like low hanging branches though (as Francois mentioned).

  74. #274
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    Look at this: h t t p : / /photozou.jp/photo/show/214524/83193309 (please remove the spaces in the URL - I am not allowed to post URLs because I don't have sufficient cred on this website). It gives a more complete view of the beam. The dark spot is not really all that dark. The beam starts out bright, gets a little dark and then the main part gets really bright. Like any asymmetrical light it is sensitive to adjustment. I find that is best to adjust on a relatively flat road while riding the bike (the rider's weight does affect the overall angle!). I start off by pointing it a bit down and then tilting it up slowly until I achieve maximum throw.

    Wouldn't it be great if were self leveling like BMW lights, heheh. Just kidding, that would add too much complexity, weight and cost

    Quote Originally Posted by a.k.a. View Post
    Paul, there was a debate over exactly this earlier in the thread, with photos from Francois' back yard. It appears that if you tilt the Philips beam further up, it leaves a darkened gap nearer to the source (just ahead of the bike). That means you'd lose track of obstacles in the trail/road surface. Seen here, when tilted down instead, it also does a weak job of defining the trench at the left side of the image.

    It appears users will have a challenge adjusting the beam to hit the sweet spot. On the other hand, with a static image you're not factoring in the usual handlebar wobble. I'm sure you'd get at least intermittent glimpses of obstacles -- immediately ahead, or off on the periphery like the trench.

    But are you going to see the low-hanging tree limbs overhead? That's the most important question, and why I'm wary of shaped beams. I've been glad for the spread of my own light without a shaped beam (a MiNewt 600) as it's shown me a few low-hanging bushes I might have ridden into.

  75. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiteBiker View Post
    Look at this: h t t p : / /photozou.jp/photo/show/214524/83193309 (please remove the spaces in the URL - I am not allowed to post URLs because I don't have sufficient cred on this website). It gives a more complete view of the beam. The dark spot is not really all that dark. The beam starts out bright, gets a little dark and then the main part gets really bright. Like any asymmetrical light it is sensitive to adjustment. I find that is best to adjust on a relatively flat road while riding the bike (the rider's weight does affect the overall angle!). I start off by pointing it a bit down and then tilting it up slowly until I achieve maximum throw.

    Wouldn't it be great if were self leveling like BMW lights, heheh. Just kidding, that would add too much complexity, weight and cost
    Yeah - that's what I was trying to say. :-) Put the top of the cutoff right around a persons waist level.

  76. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    There was a debate earlier in the thread, I just think that in my experience the light head ended up to far down, I think it's meant to be pointed up somewhat further, even if that does leave a larger dark gap in front of the bike. I mean these are just my thoughts, but recently I've been tuning the position of my Lumotec Cyo another shaped beam light and that has been the best light position - for commuting. I just think if it was pointed a little bit more up it will light up further down the trail in this pic.

    I certainly don't expect Francois to go back and reshoot it or anything though.

    As Francois said in his review, I don't think that a shaped beam light by itself would be good for mountain biking. It could be good in combination with a headlamp that would illuminate stuff like low hanging branches though (as Francois mentioned).
    Correct. On the commuter, lower-powered lights, I'm aiming them lower on the trail photos. The reason is their throw is not that far and the light just gets lost.

    I'm aiming them at the orange sheet 100 feet on the left of the trail. There is another green sheet on the 200 foot mark.

    I just got this light called the Cateye Econom Force. It is very similar to the Saferide as it has a very controlled beam pattern. It is square!!

    Here's the latest photos:
    Cateye Econom Force
    Philips Saferide

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2110.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2133.jpg  


  77. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by djembe975 View Post
    What happened to the CygoLite lights? Did they back out last minute? It would be nice if they included their Expillion 400 cordless style along with the Turbo 740 as they seem like solid choices for the price.
    They are pending. They are sending the Expilion 350 and a TridenX 750..

    There a bunch more lights coming too. I just got Hope and Tiny Sun Lights.

    fc

  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by g8trtim View Post
    Sorry for my ignorance, I just stumbled across this thread for the first time. Will this information and results turn into a spreadsheet or database so we can pinpoint the best light for specific requirements/categories? I looked at the 2012 Bike Lights Shootout page and this test is fantastic and appears to be very thorough!
    Yes, I will release the spreadsheet to this group. You guys always make nice graphs and calculations for me.

    Also, proofread my stuff for errors. It's much appreciated.

    fc

  79. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    They are pending. They are sending the Expilion 350 and a TridenX 750..

    There a bunch more lights coming too. I just got Hope and Tiny Sun Lights.

    fc
    Try to get them to send you at least the 400 instead and the Turbo 740.

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    Finally! The new light shoutout. Was waiting a couple weeks for this. Thanks.


    Oh and one thing: Philips is actually an old Dutch electronics company (from 1891). They started as a light company later on made all kinds of electronics Came up with some innovations, for instance the Compact Disc.

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    I dont get why everyone is worried about the cutoff for commuting lights. I ran 2 niterider minewt 600 on highs on street commutes. I got a small strip of 3M black tape($2 industrial version from home depot not the cheap 0.99 ones) and placed it over the top part of the light to cut off the spill and not blind drivers. Because the tape can handle high temps there was no melting. The tape did not block the spot light just the small amount of spill that blinds on coming traffic.

  82. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by anekin007 View Post
    I dont get why everyone is worried about the cutoff for commuting lights. I ran 2 niterider minewt 600 on highs on street commutes. I got a small strip of 3M black tape($2 industrial version from home depot not the cheap 0.99 ones) and placed it over the top part of the light to cut off the spill and not blind drivers. Because the tape can handle high temps there was no melting. The tape did not block the spot light just the small amount of spill that blinds on coming traffic.
    I'm with you... sort of. With judicious power management and aiming of a non-shaped beam, you can easily ride in traffic at night with plenty of light on the road to see your way without blinding on-coming traffic. If I happen to "stick out" a bit more than the typical car headlight, I'm totally OK with that. Anything that draws attention without being dangerous is a good thing in my opinion.

    The "tape over the top half" trick only really works if you're blocking the direct line of sight to the emitter itself. So you probably need to block just a little more than the top half. Even better than just the tape would be a small mirror, or even smooth aluminum foil. This would have the effect of reflecting back a good portion of the light, and if the light is using a parabolic reflector, it would be re-directed out the bottom half, essentially what the Philips is doing, only with a much bigger reflector with a compound shape. But then again, considering the output lost doing this, you might be just as well off to cut the light's total power output (if possible) and re-aiming for slightly less throw. Just IMO.

  83. #283
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    NiteBiker, that's a very useful photo of the Philips' spread. Apparently the dim foreground isn't a concern, as you've suggested. Bodes well for overhead illumination, but I'm still wary, from a safety standpoint. Nothing against Philips. Anyone conscientious and patient enough to put out a dynamo light gets big props.

    I think I just have a dark screen.

    Wonder how to get the photos to reveal more of the beam's dynamic range, as in the photo NiteBiker found.

  84. #284
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    The videos show up here first:

    MtbrVideos's Channel - YouTube

  85. #285
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    Francois,

    For future reference, apparently there's a setting in the Nikon D7000 called Active D-Lighting (ADL). This underexposes when the highlights will be blown out, and it's on by default.

    If you're looking for a way to show the details of a light beam that may be too underexposed (like the periphery of the Philips SafeRide beam), you'd want to do the following:

    1) Turn ADL off.
    2) Set Contrast to Neutral or Low.
    3) Shoot the first / brightest lamp with manual exposure, overexposing it to some extent.
    4) Use the same settings for the rest of the lamps. They'll expose less and less terrain the lower the lux you're reading for them, but it might be a little bit easier to see what's being illuminated around the dimly lit edges.

    If I get any other advice, I'll re-edit this particular reply of this thread, so it's not scattered.

    I have no interest in seeing you re-shoot, just some insights for next year. Hope this is helpful.

  86. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by a.k.a. View Post
    Francois,

    For future reference, apparently there's a setting in the Nikon D7000 called Active D-Lighting (ADL). This underexposes when the highlights will be blown out, and it's on by default.

    If you're looking for a way to show the details of a light beam that may be too underexposed (like the periphery of the Philips SafeRide beam), you'd want to do the following:

    1) Turn ADL off.
    2) Set Contrast to Neutral or Low.
    3) Shoot the first / brightest lamp with manual exposure, overexposing it to some extent.
    4) Use the same settings for the rest of the lamps. They'll expose less and less terrain the lower the lux you're reading for them, but it might be a little bit easier to see what's being illuminated around the dimly lit edges.

    If I get any other advice, I'll re-edit this particular reply of this thread, so it's not scattered.

    I have no interest in seeing you re-shoot, just some insights for next year. Hope this is helpful.
    I believe he uses a fixed set of exposure settings so that there is some basis for comparison between pictures.

    Besides that, digital photography will not accurately portray the differences from high to low light levels and therefore the true character of the beam. A digital camera can see about 5-6 f/stops of light (light doublings) and your eye sees 20-21 f/stops of light - many times more resolution from light to dark.

    J.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    I believe he uses a fixed set of exposure settings so that there is some basis for comparison between pictures.

    Besides that, digital photography will not accurately portray the differences from high to low light levels and therefore the true character of the beam. A digital camera can see about 5-6 f/stops of light (light doublings) and your eye sees 20-21 f/stops of light - many times more resolution from light to dark.

    J.
    Correct. I don't want any post-processing. I may try shooting with another camera and in raw formats.

    fc

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    Raw probably won't make much difference. Best thing would be one of the very newest DSLRs with the highest sensitivity ISO. It's just that the human eye is so much more sensitive and we are talking about seriously bright lights here.

    J.

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    By the way, John, the D7000 currently has the highest dynamic-range sensor going in the 35mm format DSLR world -- coming in at 14 f-stops, according to DxOMark It is equipped with the same sensor as Nikon's top-of-the-line D9000. The only thing it ain't got is a full-frame 35mm sensor, like the D3 series.

    No need to hunt for a better camera, Francois. You have THE sweetest camera of the DSLR world.

  90. #290
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    Right. But it still doesn't have the dynamic range to properly show a beam. You get an idea of shape of the hot spot but the light fall off from hot to edge of the beam won't be representative of the actual beam. The hot spot is pretty easy to see and to determine how well it works, but the fall off from the center (spill) is a huge deal for night riding and that's what you miss with digital photography.

    AND those measurements of the performance of the camera are typically not even close to what you can get in real use. So, it comes back down to a tiny fraction of what the human eye can see very quickly and we're right back to the point that the beam shots beyond about 600 lumens are really not all that accurate and are misleading.

    j.

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    Are there any sources for the Phillips lights with US plugs? I like this for the part of my commute that has heavy bike traffic.

  92. #292
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    deleted...carry on!

  93. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by lou2uanme View Post
    Lupine website says the Betty 2600 is 460 grams (1.01lbs) and has a 7.5 amp hour Li-Ion battery. Cost $930

    Niterider website says Pro 3000 is 812 grams (1.79lbs) and has a 11.6 amp hour Li-Ion battery.
    Cost $700.

    The Niterider Pro 3000 battery has 4.1 amp hours more capacity than the Betty. That is a lot more battery capacity for 3/4 pound more in weight.

    I'm not sure if the website info is accurate or if the weights include mounts or not but that is what is posted.


    I'd prefer to get a higher capacity battery and brighter light and at $230 cheaper....... 3 reasons to get the NR Pro 3000 over the lighter weight Betty 2600
    Until you look at the build quality of a Lupine. (And I have been with Niterider for 15 years when they were starting out with NiCad batteries.) Get what you like and need, but imho there is NO comparison in overall quality between NR and Lupine, the latter beats them in every manner.


    Mikey

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    Hey FC

    The Serfas true 500 looks like a nice product but I was wondering what you thought of the helmet mount as that's what I would use it for. I like the idea that I can replace the battery on the trail and 18650 are cheap so I could carry several.

    Thx

    MB

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    Maximus,

    What, didn't you re-read all 6 pages of this thread in toto? : )

    See this reply. It has the links and pricing for the Philips. Let us know if you get one.
    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.

  96. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeyonthemadone View Post
    Until you look at the build quality of a Lupine. (And I have been with Niterider for 15 years when they were starting out with NiCad batteries.) Get what you like and need, but imho there is NO comparison in overall quality between NR and Lupine, the latter beats them in every manner.


    Mikey

    Lupine has these new hardcase batteries with a fuel guage. They are impressive. This one is 11.2 amp and powers the Betty at high for 3 hours 20 min.

    Here's the Niterider 3000 system weight for comparison.

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2228.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2229.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2230.jpg  


  97. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by mb323323 View Post
    Hey FC

    The Serfas true 500 looks like a nice product but I was wondering what you thought of the helmet mount as that's what I would use it for. I like the idea that I can replace the battery on the trail and 18650 are cheap so I could carry several.

    Thx

    MB
    The helmet mount looks good. Good plastics and the light can be aimed up and down without moving mount.

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_2232.jpg  


  98. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Also, proofread my stuff for errors. It's much appreciated.

    fc
    On this page http://reviews.mtbr.com/2012-bike-lights-shootout the Dinotte 400L should be $209.

  99. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
    Besides that, digital photography will not accurately portray the differences from high to low light levels and therefore the true character of the beam. A digital camera can see about 5-6 f/stops of light (light doublings) and your eye sees 20-21 f/stops of light - many times more resolution from light to dark.

    J.
    That's called "dynamic range", and all digital cameras are not the same when it comes to it. A modern dslr is better than a modern compact, but they do make improvements in the amount of dynamic range a camera can see. Currently Nikon d5100 / d7000 / Sony a55 are the best for dynamic range in the "dslr you can remotely afford" category (ie under $2500), but I believe they are more like 8 stops per dpreview -
    Nikon D5100 Review: 14. Dynamic Range: Digital Photography Review

    Though the pics from above appear to all be taken with a Canon g9 compact, right Francois?

  100. #300
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    wow is a lupine piko realy only 30 dolars more than the exposure diablo. here in the uk the piko is twice the price

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