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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by a.k.a. View Post
    Very cool! Francois, I do wonder if the makers intended for the lamp light to be thrown at the high forward angle at which it's shown in your yard shot. Seems to me that's plenty of glare in an oncoming eye. For purposes of demoing the lamp's brightness, it's appropriate, yet wouldn't the throw angle be pointed more sharply down, in practice, to prevent glare ... say, removing the shadow just in front of the rider?
    From my own experience with the Cyo, I would agree that in real use one should point it down further, with the top of the beam aimed at about waist level on another person.

    For test photos here I think it work well though. :-)

    lol, I suppose now I'll end up taking back what I wrote earlier...one of the disadvantages of that kind of beam is the need to aim it lower if it's on the bars. I originally mounted my Cyo on the bars but found that either the hot part of the beam hit people in the eyes, or I had to aim it to low, so I remounted it on the brakes and it's better. I guess my point is that a lot of the shaped lights benefit from being lower than on the bars...though on the other hand who knows, maybe they somehow designed the beam different/better because they knew it would be on the bars (while the Cyo is actually meant to be mounted on the fork).

    Quote Originally Posted by a.k.a. View Post
    If you want the Philips lamp sooner, the UPCs are these:

    Silver: 8727900534917
    Black: 8727900534948, 8727900534931

    Cheapest prices are showing up on Amazon[dot]de and Google[dot]de[slash]prdhp

    Retail, it's currently running about 90 EURO without shipping (about $125).
    Yeah, that's a lot less than they were selling it for on ebay, lol...

  2. #102
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    Great to see the Philips SafeRide in the Shootout. It should be mentioned that this light is also offered in a dynamo powered configuration, for unlimited runtime. Interesting article here:
    Bicycle lighting, in particular LED headlamps (headlights) with cutoff, and (hub) dynamos
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    hey, thanks for the response.

    I don't know, I think the one place AA batteries do make sense is in a commuter light if it has a charger built into the light (just plug the light in and it charges the AA batteries). Completely replacing the battery with AA rechargeables costs $10 the last time I checked. Or going on an extra long trip? Bring another $10 set of batteries with you. Have you seen the replacement costs of lith-ion batteries? Dinotte is known for having relatively cheap battery replacement costs, and their smaller 2 cell battery costs $50 to replace. When I was in college, I definitely would have been willing to deal with a larger light in exchange for saving $40.
    I wasn't aware of the fact that the light unit actually charges the batteries - it is probably the first light using AA batteries that can do this trick (even Dinotte can't). I used an AA Dinotte (and other AA powered lights) before and charging was one of the main nuisances.

    The other thing is the bulkiness, but I could live with that....

    Too bad that I already bought a L&M Urban for commuting purposes. Which doesn't have this beam pattern, but is bright as hell, has a built-in LiIon battery and costs ~100 bucks.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by spec306 View Post
    I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on some new lights soon. Are you going to review the 2012 stuff from Baja Designs? I think either their Dual or the 2012 Stryker on the bars plus the new Piko 3 would make an awesome, and blinding, combo. Waiting for your review before making the final decision.

    So......which light is #3 already??? The suspense is killing everyone.
    Hey Spec306,

    MTBR will have the new 2012 Baja Designs Double Stryk, Strykr II, and Strykr SL. I shipped them out Monday so in theory they should have already arrived at the plush and well appointed Francois Lair...let the testing begin!!

    Shannon

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    I wasn't aware of the fact that the light unit actually charges the batteries - it is probably the first light using AA batteries that can do this trick (even Dinotte can't). I used an AA Dinotte (and other AA powered lights) before and charging was one of the main nuisances.
    Yeah, I'm glad somebody clarified that because I was looking at the specs and scratching my head.
    "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go."
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaDesignsShannon View Post
    Hey Spec306,

    MTBR will have the new 2012 Baja Designs Double Stryk, Strykr II, and Strykr SL. I shipped them out Monday so in theory they should have already arrived at the plush and well appointed Francois Lair...let the testing begin!!

    Shannon
    Very nice Shannon I was waiting to see the Strykr's get involved in this Haha. I am curious to see how the 2012 BD line up compares.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    I wasn't aware of the fact that the light unit actually charges the batteries - it is probably the first light using AA batteries that can do this trick (even Dinotte can't). I used an AA Dinotte (and other AA powered lights) before and charging was one of the main nuisances.
    haha, yeah, I know of *ton* of lights and it's only the 2nd I know of that can do that. :-) The other one is the Ixon IQ - probably not coincidentally, also the only other shaped beam light that isn't a dynamo light that I've ever heard of. :-)

    I also have a Dinotte AA 200L, and agree with you completely - taking out the batteries to charge them is a constant annoyance. :-)

  8. #108
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Maximus View Post
    Great to see the Philips SafeRide in the Shootout. It should be mentioned that this light is also offered in a dynamo powered configuration, for unlimited runtime. Interesting article here:
    Bicycle lighting, in particular LED headlamps (headlights) with cutoff, and (hub) dynamos
    Yes, I have the Dynamo version and the ebike version. They are a little smaller so less light. the ebike version looks like it will take any voltage from 6-36v to connect to an ebike battery. I'll test them later.

  9. #109
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaDesignsShannon View Post
    Hey Spec306,

    MTBR will have the new 2012 Baja Designs Double Stryk, Strykr II, and Strykr SL. I shipped them out Monday so in theory they should have already arrived at the plush and well appointed Francois Lair...let the testing begin!!

    Shannon
    Yes, I have them all now. Dinotte and L&M is all here too.

    fc

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    haha, yeah, I know of *ton* of lights and it's only the 2nd I know of that can do that. :-) The other one is the Ixon IQ - probably not coincidentally, also the only other shaped beam light that isn't a dynamo light that I've ever heard of. :-)
    Check this out then:
    Supernova Lighting Systems - AIRSTREAM Specifications

    Horribly expensive, but has all the features you could think of.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Yes, I have them all now. Dinotte and L&M is all here too.

    fc
    Thanks FC and Shannon. Love the reviews...........can hardly wait for the results! Christmas may be coming early this year.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    Check this out then:
    Supernova Lighting Systems - AIRSTREAM Specifications

    Horribly expensive, but has all the features you could think of.
    cool. i've never heard of them but I'll contact them.

    fc

  13. #113
    RTM
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    so, Francios, someone asked earlier and I'm also wondering, what happens to the lights you test? I have to assume you send them back, but does the manufacturer sell these 'gently used' demo models?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    Check this out then:
    Supernova Lighting Systems - AIRSTREAM Specifications

    Horribly expensive, but has all the features you could think of.
    Hmm, thanks for mentioning that I had forgotten about that one. Thing is I haven't heard very good things about the beam pattern on that one, their dynamo version that's "assymetrical" which I believe this is based off on doesn't seem to have a lot of throw, heard better things about the Cyo (and the Phillips).

    Though the internet is finicky so who knows, would love to see actual shots. :-)

  15. #115
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    so, Francios, someone asked earlier and I'm also wondering, what happens to the lights you test? I have to assume you send them back, but does the manufacturer sell these 'gently used' demo models?
    It's a combination. We return some and keep some. We have night ride crew here in the office and we get to use/test them long term in more variable conditions. Now only if we had legal night riding here in the SF peninsula area...

    fc

  16. #116
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    Philips LED Bike Light annoyances

    Yes, that is correct you don't need to take out the batteries to charge them. However, the light switches off when you are charging it.

    And yes, the battery level indicator leds are distracting bright; so is the ring of light at the top of the reflector - both problems are easily solved by applying 3 layers of white electrical tape over them.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    Oh wow, cool!

    I am...trying to be helpful so if it comes across at to nitpicky let me know. But I'm confused by a paragraph the end of the article -

    Also, the operation of four batteries (AA, LR6) is possible.Thanks to the battery level / charging indicator and the cyclist has his light reserves in view. Via USB port, the battery can easily power on and charge any computer.

    Was it...run through google translate? "the operation of four batteries is possible" doesn't make much sense. I think the second sentence means the cyclist can see a charge indicator but "light reserves" is very weird working. The last sentence says you can power and charge a computer from the light which must be backwards, lol.

    There were 2 things with this light I was curious about -
    1. I assume this is true from the pics, but the light charges AA's inside the light, you just hook it up, no need to remove the batteries, right?
    2. Some reviews have said that the status lights on the light itself are to bright and you can get light in your face from the light which is annoying. What do you think?

    Maybe...maybe now that mtbr has reviewed it, someone will actually start selling it in the US...right now it's ebay or pay to have it shipped from Europe...

    P.S. Love the pics.
    Last edited by NiteBiker; 09-29-2011 at 05:31 PM. Reason: missing title

  17. #117
    fc
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    Most of the shooting, measuring is going to happen in the next three days. Wish me luck.

    I have a TON of lights.

    A bunch more are coming but they're still on a ship or getting soldered somewhere:
    Jet Lites, Cateye, Gemini, Hope, Lezyne

    Cygolite is just not in. I'll buy all the lights myself at REI.


    I rode last night at with the Piko X on the bar and the Piko 3 on the helmet. Each light is 750 lumen. It was a new level of awesome. The lights disappeared in the riding experience and the two big beam patterns sang a duet like Sonny and Cher.

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-francois.jpg  

    Last edited by fc; 09-30-2011 at 10:53 AM.

  18. #118
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    I had contemplated a dual Piko set up. I too think that would be a great setup.

    J.

  19. #119
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    Nice

  20. #120
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    I have been using Philips LED bikelight for commuting 7 month ago.
    It is truely nice light because it has a cutoff-line to prevent oncoming traffic from blinding.
    But if it is aimed to a bit higher from horizon, it is useful for MTB riding.
    Of course, with helmet light is better, I know.
    So I has an objection for Francis's opinion in the review.
    >If there is a canopy, low hanging obstacles on the trail, those objects will be not visible with this light.

    I do not have latest high end MTB light(they are a bit old) currently,
    but I compared it with them.
    All pictures were taken as EV2. You can check it the exif information in data.
    That level is the same as this forum light illumination pictures.

    I put them in other sight because of MTBR server's very slow response.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/1030147...547/Bikelights

  21. #121
    fc
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    setup last night
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_1912.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_1913.jpg  


  22. #122
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vienna1 View Post
    I have been using Philips LED bikelight for commuting 7 month ago.
    It is truely nice light because it has a cutoff-line to prevent oncoming traffic from blinding.
    But if it is aimed to a bit higher from horizon, it is useful for MTB riding.
    Of course, with helmet light is better, I know.
    So I has an objection for Francis's opinion in the review.
    >If there is a canopy, low hanging obstacles on the trail, those objects will be not visible with this light.

    I do not have latest high end MTB light(they are a bit old) currently,
    but I compared it with them.
    All pictures were taken as EV2. You can check it the exif information in data.
    That level is the same as this forum light illumination pictures.

    I put them in other sight because of MTBR server's very slow response.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/1030147...547/Bikelights
    Good insight and great photos.

    The problem with the Philips not shown in your photos or mine is you put a low hanging branch in front of the camera at about eye level, 10 or 20 feet in front, it won't be visible. The Philips has no upward light spill like all other lights.

    This is easily solved of course by a complementary helmet light.

    I got a better Philips photo last night per the suggestion of folks in the board. I aimed it a little lower to improve the spill of the lights on the grass.


    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_1828.jpg  


  23. #123
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    Wow you have your work cut out for you Haha Good luck and i am excited to see how all the new offerings
    do this year as it seems to be the year of lumen war's with all the new technology.

  24. #124
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    that phillips light has a really nice beam pattern for commuters.

    This is probably another area of development for light manufacturers - a lot more attention to beam shaping.

    J.

  25. #125
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    Would love to see some testing of dyno driven lights included!

  26. #126
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF View Post
    Would love to see some testing of dyno driven lights included!
    That would be dyno-mite

    Do I have to keep pedaling though while taking a photo?

    What are the most important dyno lights out there?

    fc

  27. #127
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    If it's of use to you, Francois, I can tell you this much:

    Peter White's site and the Dutch site mentioned above [can't link to it, but the domain is swhs[dot]xs4all[dot]nl] is where you will find the skinny on all things dynamo. Both sites are great, and Peter White's is just beautiful. Both are well worth a read.

    peterwhitecycles[dot]com

    Some of the most important dynamo hubs are at Starbike[dot]com.

    Note that Shimano has, or is coming out with, a Deore XT DH-T785 centerlock dynamo hub. Beyond that, the Schmidt SON and the Supernovas 8 [660g] and S [400g] are among the most reputable hubs.

    Exposure lights is rumored to be working on a bright dynamo light. We've talked about the Philips, and check White's site for the rest.

  28. #128
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    Please note:
    You can't use normal AA batteries (alkaline or lithiums) with the Philips Safe Ride LED Battery Light.

    The light can only work with NiMH rechargeable batteries because of the LED driver.
    The voltage across the LEDs are 6.1 - 6.49V which means that the driver is a boost converter, and that the battery voltage must be less than LED voltage.

  29. #129
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    I can't wait

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Most of the shooting, measuring is going to happen in the next three days. Wish me luck.

    I have a TON of lights.

    A bunch more are coming but they're still on a ship or getting soldered somewhere:
    Jet Lites, Cateye, Gemini, Hope, Lezyne

    Cygolite is just not in. I'll buy all the lights myself at REI.


    I rode last night at with the Piko X on the bar and the Piko 3 on the helmet. Each light is 750 lumen. It was a new level of awesome. The lights disappeared in the riding experience and the two big beam patterns sang a duet like Sonny and Cher.

    fc
    My favorite is the light shoot out. Hey Francois what bike are you ridding?

  30. #130
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by coach2win View Post
    My favorite is the light shoot out. Hey Francois what bike are you ridding?
    I'm riding a Look FS bike in that photo. It was a prototype and it never got released in the US market. So it's a one of a kind!

    I built this new Highball bike though and I think I will be riding it all winter.

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_9738.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_1917.jpg  


  31. #131
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    Pehaps prevent misscharging

    Lithium batteries(same size as AA) cannot be used because they have much higher voltage than Ni-MH batteries.
    Using them will damage the electoronics circuit.
    But the reason normal(Alkaline) AA battery should not be used is other.

    User Manual describes,

    >In the event of non-rechargeable batteries being used, there is a risk of
    >explosion should be attempt be made to recharge batteries.

    So if you NEVER make a mistake of attempt charging them,
    Alkaline batteries can be used, I think.
    But you must open the battery lid by rotaing screws whenever you change batteries.
    It will be a bit labor.

  32. #132
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    Smile Real World Tests - Get out of the backyard.

    Hello,

    This is my first post in this forum. I have been night riding since the mid 90's. Back then I had a full water bottle dual beam NiteRider rig that I used in the Santa Monica Mountains north of Sunset, and it was bright enough to bring home two riders in front of me who lights had long since failed.

    Today, I am looking at moving back to the bay area after living in Tahoe for the past three years and looking to replace my older NiteRider HID lights. I don't ride at night up here, too scary, you never know what can come out of the bushes at you. In the Berkeley hills , it was scary enough dodging dear, up here its the bears

    Anyways, I have a lot of experience riding at night, both on road and off, and I demand a lot from my lights. For me, I feel safer at night riding my bike as I am actively involved in my visibility vs. the daytime where it is a more passive affair. For the most part, I use my lights for commuting and working out (road) which means riding 20 miles an hour in traffic, up to 50+ down S. Park or Claremont. I have been looking at reviews of lights and I know it is late, but here is what I like to see, and what I favor in a light.

    1. Handle Bar Lights: For me, watching you show the light in your backyard means very little to me. It is out of context, I don't ride my bike in the backyard so watching you shine a light there doesn't really let me know how it performs on the street. Lights & Motion does it well. An underpass with distance and angle lines on the street. What I am looking for in a handlebar light that can keep the road in front of me lit up, regardless of the noise around me. On-coming traffic, traffic from behind, amber or white street lights, a little rain or fog, you can't get a sense of that from your back-yard. The problem is that every light looks better in total darkness. What I need to know is will the on-coming traffic headlights overpower my light and mask that pothole on the road or not? If I am coming down Claremont at 45+ will the light see the sewer covers in the middle of the road? This light needs a good throw, but it also needs a good flood, especially right in front of you. What good is it to pick-up an object 75 feet out in front of you, if it drops out of the spot into 20 feet in front of you? Makes it difficult to thread the needle, on road or off.

    2. Headlight. This light has saved my life a couple of times. One time, I was crossing in intersection and a driver from the on-coming traffic lane decided to do a snap left to beat the traffic. Had it not been for my headlight flooding his windshield forcing him to hit the breaks hard, he would have taken me out. I am sure many of you have had something like this happen to you. While I like handlebar light have a good flood to it, I like the Headlight to be a good spot, one that doesn't get washed out by the headlight, and as long as I keep it focused on the road, it won't blind on-coming traffic. For example, the Vis-360 ranked well as a commuter light, but it is difficult to tell how much stopping power it has. I would like to see lights for helmets waived back and forth around a handlebar light so I get a feel for what it adds to the light. My problem is if you get a light that doesn't match the handlebar light well, then when looking to the side you have to wait for your eyes to adjust lower light level. What you want is that where ever you put your spot, your eyes are already adjusted.

    3. Tail Light. Francois, you mentioned during your review of the Vis-180 that you wondered why it didn't just flash, it it went in and out. The reason is that a flashing light is harder for a driver to judge distance, especially in less than optimal conditions. I liked the 10-led NiteRider tail light, for more than a decade, nothing came close. I used it in always on mode and a battery one in flasher mode. What I want to see in a tail light is how far can you see it clearly? Put a car 100 feet away with the tail lights on, then put the tail light 10 feet to the right, how does it relate? I know you said you can't film it in flash mode, but you could put a whole bar of lights next to a car tail light (not braking) at different distances. Right away, we would be able to see the performance of the whole line in one shot. How about a shot during the day? I like riding with a flasher all the time. Remember, I live up at Tahoe and I have to compete with the lake for people's attention.

    Lastly, what I would like to see is for you to match systems in different price ranges. If you had $200, what helmet, handlebar and tail light would you choose, What if you had $300, $700, you get the idea.

    I am sorry if got carried away in my first post. I hope some of what I said was useful.

    - Roger

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    That would be dyno-mite

    Do I have to keep pedaling though while taking a photo?

    What are the most important dyno lights out there?

    fc
    No pedaling for photos, the dyno is in the front wheel!

    I think the most popular are the Schmidt Edelux, the Supernova E3 in symmetric, asymmetric, and triple configurations (I use the triple), and maybe the B&M Lumotec IQ Fly.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF View Post
    No pedaling for photos, the dyno is in the front wheel!

    I think the most popular are the Schmidt Edelux, the Supernova E3 in symmetric, asymmetric, and triple configurations (I use the triple), and maybe the B&M Lumotec IQ Fly.
    Rollers?
    See here for some examples of dyno beams:
    headlight beams from Peter White Cycles

  35. #135
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    I am going to redo this video, but you guys can take a peek at my ramblings.

    edits:
    - keep it under 5 minutes
    - stop saying 'umm' all the time
    - get a temperature gun to get a real reading.
    - point all lights at the wall
    - wear better shorts

    fc


  36. #136
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    Francois, one of our lbs is selling the Surfas True1500. How would you rate their lumen claims? Second, i was wondering if you have anything fron High Beam? They are showing a new light called the Night Nemesis X-12 claiming up to 4500 lumens.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I am going to redo this video, but you guys can take a peek at my ramblings.

    edits:
    - keep it under 5 minutes
    - stop saying 'umm' all the time
    - get a temperature gun to get a real reading.
    - point all lights at the wall
    - wear better shorts

    fc

    u can get a cheap small temp gun at any local r/c shop , would be very helpful if you could somehow note how much lumen output drops with temp increase

  38. #138
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvowner View Post
    u can get a cheap small temp gun at any local r/c shop , would be very helpful if you could somehow note how much lumen output drops with temp increase
    Yessir!! I am RC guy so I used to have an awesome temp gun.

    fc
    Last edited by fc; 10-03-2011 at 04:34 PM.

  39. #139
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    Francois, one of our lbs is selling the Surfas True1500. How would you rate their lumen claims? Second, i was wondering if you have anything fron High Beam? They are showing a new light called the Night Nemesis X-12 claiming up to 4500 lumens.
    Serfas Lumen claims are legit. That is at least 1500 lumens. That measured 133 lux on my meter and it ran for 2 hours 8 minutes on high.

    I'll check on Nemesis X-12.

    fc

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    Are you also testing lights from CygoLite like the MityCross 480 and the cordless Expilion lights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by djembe975 View Post
    Are you also testing lights from CygoLite like the MityCross 480 and the cordless Expilion lights?
    Yes. What are the significant lights from Cygolite? They don't want to send lights so I'll just buy them.

    fc

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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    ...new light called the Night Nemesis X-12 claiming up to 4500 lumens.
    Only 4500 lumens? We need at least 9000! And a battery pack the size of the one in a Tesla roadster.
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    LOL!!!! i know, even tooo much for me if you can believe that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Yes. What are the significant lights from Cygolite? They don't want to send lights so I'll just buy them.

    fc
    I'm particularly interested in the MityCross 480 and the Expilion 400 cordless series mainly due to size and price.

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    I second the Expillion 400. It would make a very good "back up" light and be good for commuting as well.
    Francois, have you contacted Nightlightning in NZ? I rate my twin IBlaast IX highly and would love to see it matched up against the others in the extreme lumen catergory.

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    It would be interesting to see the Cygolite Turbo 740. Claimed 740 lumen at $170 MSRP.

    The new Lezyne lights look good for the price as well.

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    Hey Francois,

    Your doing great work! Too bad about the cygolites, I probably wont buy one cause they decided not to send you one. Sucks because of the 400-600 lumen lights, the expilion was the cheapest.

    Any update on when you will either be releasing some reviews or when the shootout is going live?

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Serfas Lumen claims are legit. That is at least 1500 lumens. That measured 133 lux on my meter and it ran for 2 hours 8 minutes on high.

    I'll check on Nemesis X-12.

    fc
    Sounds like a contender for it's lumen output range.
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyin View Post
    Hey Francois,

    Your doing great work! Too bad about the cygolites, I probably wont buy one cause they decided not to send you one. Sucks because of the 400-600 lumen lights, the expilion was the cheapest.

    Any update on when you will either be releasing some reviews or when the shootout is going live?
    I personally wouldn't suggest you drop them out of consideration just because they don't send lights in to this mtbr light shootout. There could be very valid reasons why they don't wish to participate, and at least in my opinion it in no way reflects poorly on them.
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

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    Cygolite, legit reasons not to partcipate, lay them on me! Im all ears and eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyharris View Post
    I personally wouldn't suggest you drop them out of consideration just because they don't send lights in to this mtbr light shootout. There could be very valid reasons why they don't wish to participate, and at least in my opinion it in no way reflects poorly on them.
    Randyharris:

    You know, I would really enjoy hearing any valid reasons for them not to participate. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything. I honestly cant think why every other major player in the bike light business sent their lights in except cygolite, other than they have something to hide/dont think their lights will be able to compete.

    IMHO, if you fail to send your lights in and dont want to bother giving us a reason. Then we are going to think the worst.

    But hey man, if you got some legit reasons you think they wouldnt participate. Lay them on me.

    I'm all ears and eyes.

    Heck as I noted before, Cygolite has the cheapest light in the range that I am looking for.

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