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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by a.k.a. View Post
    Very cool! Francois, I do wonder if the makers intended for the lamp light to be thrown at the high forward angle at which it's shown in your yard shot. Seems to me that's plenty of glare in an oncoming eye. For purposes of demoing the lamp's brightness, it's appropriate, yet wouldn't the throw angle be pointed more sharply down, in practice, to prevent glare ... say, removing the shadow just in front of the rider?
    From my own experience with the Cyo, I would agree that in real use one should point it down further, with the top of the beam aimed at about waist level on another person.

    For test photos here I think it work well though. :-)

    lol, I suppose now I'll end up taking back what I wrote earlier...one of the disadvantages of that kind of beam is the need to aim it lower if it's on the bars. I originally mounted my Cyo on the bars but found that either the hot part of the beam hit people in the eyes, or I had to aim it to low, so I remounted it on the brakes and it's better. I guess my point is that a lot of the shaped lights benefit from being lower than on the bars...though on the other hand who knows, maybe they somehow designed the beam different/better because they knew it would be on the bars (while the Cyo is actually meant to be mounted on the fork).

    Quote Originally Posted by a.k.a. View Post
    If you want the Philips lamp sooner, the UPCs are these:

    Silver: 8727900534917
    Black: 8727900534948, 8727900534931

    Cheapest prices are showing up on Amazon[dot]de and Google[dot]de[slash]prdhp

    Retail, it's currently running about 90 EURO without shipping (about $125).
    Yeah, that's a lot less than they were selling it for on ebay, lol...

  2. #102
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    Great to see the Philips SafeRide in the Shootout. It should be mentioned that this light is also offered in a dynamo powered configuration, for unlimited runtime. Interesting article here:
    Bicycle lighting, in particular LED headlamps (headlights) with cutoff, and (hub) dynamos
    "... displays the social skills of a barrel cactus." - TNC

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    hey, thanks for the response.

    I don't know, I think the one place AA batteries do make sense is in a commuter light if it has a charger built into the light (just plug the light in and it charges the AA batteries). Completely replacing the battery with AA rechargeables costs $10 the last time I checked. Or going on an extra long trip? Bring another $10 set of batteries with you. Have you seen the replacement costs of lith-ion batteries? Dinotte is known for having relatively cheap battery replacement costs, and their smaller 2 cell battery costs $50 to replace. When I was in college, I definitely would have been willing to deal with a larger light in exchange for saving $40.
    I wasn't aware of the fact that the light unit actually charges the batteries - it is probably the first light using AA batteries that can do this trick (even Dinotte can't). I used an AA Dinotte (and other AA powered lights) before and charging was one of the main nuisances.

    The other thing is the bulkiness, but I could live with that....

    Too bad that I already bought a L&M Urban for commuting purposes. Which doesn't have this beam pattern, but is bright as hell, has a built-in LiIon battery and costs ~100 bucks.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by spec306 View Post
    I'm thinking about pulling the trigger on some new lights soon. Are you going to review the 2012 stuff from Baja Designs? I think either their Dual or the 2012 Stryker on the bars plus the new Piko 3 would make an awesome, and blinding, combo. Waiting for your review before making the final decision.

    So......which light is #3 already??? The suspense is killing everyone.
    Hey Spec306,

    MTBR will have the new 2012 Baja Designs Double Stryk, Strykr II, and Strykr SL. I shipped them out Monday so in theory they should have already arrived at the plush and well appointed Francois Lair...let the testing begin!!

    Shannon

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    I wasn't aware of the fact that the light unit actually charges the batteries - it is probably the first light using AA batteries that can do this trick (even Dinotte can't). I used an AA Dinotte (and other AA powered lights) before and charging was one of the main nuisances.
    Yeah, I'm glad somebody clarified that because I was looking at the specs and scratching my head.
    "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go."
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaDesignsShannon View Post
    Hey Spec306,

    MTBR will have the new 2012 Baja Designs Double Stryk, Strykr II, and Strykr SL. I shipped them out Monday so in theory they should have already arrived at the plush and well appointed Francois Lair...let the testing begin!!

    Shannon
    Very nice Shannon I was waiting to see the Strykr's get involved in this Haha. I am curious to see how the 2012 BD line up compares.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    I wasn't aware of the fact that the light unit actually charges the batteries - it is probably the first light using AA batteries that can do this trick (even Dinotte can't). I used an AA Dinotte (and other AA powered lights) before and charging was one of the main nuisances.
    haha, yeah, I know of *ton* of lights and it's only the 2nd I know of that can do that. :-) The other one is the Ixon IQ - probably not coincidentally, also the only other shaped beam light that isn't a dynamo light that I've ever heard of. :-)

    I also have a Dinotte AA 200L, and agree with you completely - taking out the batteries to charge them is a constant annoyance. :-)

  8. #108
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Maximus View Post
    Great to see the Philips SafeRide in the Shootout. It should be mentioned that this light is also offered in a dynamo powered configuration, for unlimited runtime. Interesting article here:
    Bicycle lighting, in particular LED headlamps (headlights) with cutoff, and (hub) dynamos
    Yes, I have the Dynamo version and the ebike version. They are a little smaller so less light. the ebike version looks like it will take any voltage from 6-36v to connect to an ebike battery. I'll test them later.

  9. #109
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by BajaDesignsShannon View Post
    Hey Spec306,

    MTBR will have the new 2012 Baja Designs Double Stryk, Strykr II, and Strykr SL. I shipped them out Monday so in theory they should have already arrived at the plush and well appointed Francois Lair...let the testing begin!!

    Shannon
    Yes, I have them all now. Dinotte and L&M is all here too.

    fc

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    haha, yeah, I know of *ton* of lights and it's only the 2nd I know of that can do that. :-) The other one is the Ixon IQ - probably not coincidentally, also the only other shaped beam light that isn't a dynamo light that I've ever heard of. :-)
    Check this out then:
    Supernova Lighting Systems - AIRSTREAM Specifications

    Horribly expensive, but has all the features you could think of.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Yes, I have them all now. Dinotte and L&M is all here too.

    fc
    Thanks FC and Shannon. Love the reviews...........can hardly wait for the results! Christmas may be coming early this year.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    Check this out then:
    Supernova Lighting Systems - AIRSTREAM Specifications

    Horribly expensive, but has all the features you could think of.
    cool. i've never heard of them but I'll contact them.

    fc

  13. #113
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    so, Francios, someone asked earlier and I'm also wondering, what happens to the lights you test? I have to assume you send them back, but does the manufacturer sell these 'gently used' demo models?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by radirpok View Post
    Check this out then:
    Supernova Lighting Systems - AIRSTREAM Specifications

    Horribly expensive, but has all the features you could think of.
    Hmm, thanks for mentioning that I had forgotten about that one. Thing is I haven't heard very good things about the beam pattern on that one, their dynamo version that's "assymetrical" which I believe this is based off on doesn't seem to have a lot of throw, heard better things about the Cyo (and the Phillips).

    Though the internet is finicky so who knows, would love to see actual shots. :-)

  15. #115
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by RTM View Post
    so, Francios, someone asked earlier and I'm also wondering, what happens to the lights you test? I have to assume you send them back, but does the manufacturer sell these 'gently used' demo models?
    It's a combination. We return some and keep some. We have night ride crew here in the office and we get to use/test them long term in more variable conditions. Now only if we had legal night riding here in the SF peninsula area...

    fc

  16. #116
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    Philips LED Bike Light annoyances

    Yes, that is correct you don't need to take out the batteries to charge them. However, the light switches off when you are charging it.

    And yes, the battery level indicator leds are distracting bright; so is the ring of light at the top of the reflector - both problems are easily solved by applying 3 layers of white electrical tape over them.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    Oh wow, cool!

    I am...trying to be helpful so if it comes across at to nitpicky let me know. But I'm confused by a paragraph the end of the article -

    Also, the operation of four batteries (AA, LR6) is possible.Thanks to the battery level / charging indicator and the cyclist has his light reserves in view. Via USB port, the battery can easily power on and charge any computer.

    Was it...run through google translate? "the operation of four batteries is possible" doesn't make much sense. I think the second sentence means the cyclist can see a charge indicator but "light reserves" is very weird working. The last sentence says you can power and charge a computer from the light which must be backwards, lol.

    There were 2 things with this light I was curious about -
    1. I assume this is true from the pics, but the light charges AA's inside the light, you just hook it up, no need to remove the batteries, right?
    2. Some reviews have said that the status lights on the light itself are to bright and you can get light in your face from the light which is annoying. What do you think?

    Maybe...maybe now that mtbr has reviewed it, someone will actually start selling it in the US...right now it's ebay or pay to have it shipped from Europe...

    P.S. Love the pics.
    Last edited by NiteBiker; 09-29-2011 at 05:31 PM. Reason: missing title

  17. #117
    fc
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    Most of the shooting, measuring is going to happen in the next three days. Wish me luck.

    I have a TON of lights.

    A bunch more are coming but they're still on a ship or getting soldered somewhere:
    Jet Lites, Cateye, Gemini, Hope, Lezyne

    Cygolite is just not in. I'll buy all the lights myself at REI.


    I rode last night at with the Piko X on the bar and the Piko 3 on the helmet. Each light is 750 lumen. It was a new level of awesome. The lights disappeared in the riding experience and the two big beam patterns sang a duet like Sonny and Cher.

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-francois.jpg  

    Last edited by fc; 09-30-2011 at 10:53 AM.

  18. #118
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    I had contemplated a dual Piko set up. I too think that would be a great setup.

    J.

  19. #119
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    Nice

  20. #120
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    I have been using Philips LED bikelight for commuting 7 month ago.
    It is truely nice light because it has a cutoff-line to prevent oncoming traffic from blinding.
    But if it is aimed to a bit higher from horizon, it is useful for MTB riding.
    Of course, with helmet light is better, I know.
    So I has an objection for Francis's opinion in the review.
    >If there is a canopy, low hanging obstacles on the trail, those objects will be not visible with this light.

    I do not have latest high end MTB light(they are a bit old) currently,
    but I compared it with them.
    All pictures were taken as EV2. You can check it the exif information in data.
    That level is the same as this forum light illumination pictures.

    I put them in other sight because of MTBR server's very slow response.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/1030147...547/Bikelights

  21. #121
    fc
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    setup last night
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_1912.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_1913.jpg  


  22. #122
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vienna1 View Post
    I have been using Philips LED bikelight for commuting 7 month ago.
    It is truely nice light because it has a cutoff-line to prevent oncoming traffic from blinding.
    But if it is aimed to a bit higher from horizon, it is useful for MTB riding.
    Of course, with helmet light is better, I know.
    So I has an objection for Francis's opinion in the review.
    >If there is a canopy, low hanging obstacles on the trail, those objects will be not visible with this light.

    I do not have latest high end MTB light(they are a bit old) currently,
    but I compared it with them.
    All pictures were taken as EV2. You can check it the exif information in data.
    That level is the same as this forum light illumination pictures.

    I put them in other sight because of MTBR server's very slow response.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/1030147...547/Bikelights
    Good insight and great photos.

    The problem with the Philips not shown in your photos or mine is you put a low hanging branch in front of the camera at about eye level, 10 or 20 feet in front, it won't be visible. The Philips has no upward light spill like all other lights.

    This is easily solved of course by a complementary helmet light.

    I got a better Philips photo last night per the suggestion of folks in the board. I aimed it a little lower to improve the spill of the lights on the grass.


    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_1828.jpg  


  23. #123
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    Wow you have your work cut out for you Haha Good luck and i am excited to see how all the new offerings
    do this year as it seems to be the year of lumen war's with all the new technology.

  24. #124
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    that phillips light has a really nice beam pattern for commuters.

    This is probably another area of development for light manufacturers - a lot more attention to beam shaping.

    J.

  25. #125
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    Would love to see some testing of dyno driven lights included!

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF View Post
    Would love to see some testing of dyno driven lights included!
    That would be dyno-mite

    Do I have to keep pedaling though while taking a photo?

    What are the most important dyno lights out there?

    fc

  27. #127
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    If it's of use to you, Francois, I can tell you this much:

    Peter White's site and the Dutch site mentioned above [can't link to it, but the domain is swhs[dot]xs4all[dot]nl] is where you will find the skinny on all things dynamo. Both sites are great, and Peter White's is just beautiful. Both are well worth a read.

    peterwhitecycles[dot]com

    Some of the most important dynamo hubs are at Starbike[dot]com.

    Note that Shimano has, or is coming out with, a Deore XT DH-T785 centerlock dynamo hub. Beyond that, the Schmidt SON and the Supernovas 8 [660g] and S [400g] are among the most reputable hubs.

    Exposure lights is rumored to be working on a bright dynamo light. We've talked about the Philips, and check White's site for the rest.

  28. #128
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    Please note:
    You can't use normal AA batteries (alkaline or lithiums) with the Philips Safe Ride LED Battery Light.

    The light can only work with NiMH rechargeable batteries because of the LED driver.
    The voltage across the LEDs are 6.1 - 6.49V which means that the driver is a boost converter, and that the battery voltage must be less than LED voltage.

  29. #129
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    I can't wait

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Most of the shooting, measuring is going to happen in the next three days. Wish me luck.

    I have a TON of lights.

    A bunch more are coming but they're still on a ship or getting soldered somewhere:
    Jet Lites, Cateye, Gemini, Hope, Lezyne

    Cygolite is just not in. I'll buy all the lights myself at REI.


    I rode last night at with the Piko X on the bar and the Piko 3 on the helmet. Each light is 750 lumen. It was a new level of awesome. The lights disappeared in the riding experience and the two big beam patterns sang a duet like Sonny and Cher.

    fc
    My favorite is the light shoot out. Hey Francois what bike are you ridding?

  30. #130
    fc
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    Quote Originally Posted by coach2win View Post
    My favorite is the light shoot out. Hey Francois what bike are you ridding?
    I'm riding a Look FS bike in that photo. It was a prototype and it never got released in the US market. So it's a one of a kind!

    I built this new Highball bike though and I think I will be riding it all winter.

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_9738.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_1917.jpg  


  31. #131
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    Pehaps prevent misscharging

    Lithium batteries(same size as AA) cannot be used because they have much higher voltage than Ni-MH batteries.
    Using them will damage the electoronics circuit.
    But the reason normal(Alkaline) AA battery should not be used is other.

    User Manual describes,

    >In the event of non-rechargeable batteries being used, there is a risk of
    >explosion should be attempt be made to recharge batteries.

    So if you NEVER make a mistake of attempt charging them,
    Alkaline batteries can be used, I think.
    But you must open the battery lid by rotaing screws whenever you change batteries.
    It will be a bit labor.

  32. #132
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    Smile Real World Tests - Get out of the backyard.

    Hello,

    This is my first post in this forum. I have been night riding since the mid 90's. Back then I had a full water bottle dual beam NiteRider rig that I used in the Santa Monica Mountains north of Sunset, and it was bright enough to bring home two riders in front of me who lights had long since failed.

    Today, I am looking at moving back to the bay area after living in Tahoe for the past three years and looking to replace my older NiteRider HID lights. I don't ride at night up here, too scary, you never know what can come out of the bushes at you. In the Berkeley hills , it was scary enough dodging dear, up here its the bears

    Anyways, I have a lot of experience riding at night, both on road and off, and I demand a lot from my lights. For me, I feel safer at night riding my bike as I am actively involved in my visibility vs. the daytime where it is a more passive affair. For the most part, I use my lights for commuting and working out (road) which means riding 20 miles an hour in traffic, up to 50+ down S. Park or Claremont. I have been looking at reviews of lights and I know it is late, but here is what I like to see, and what I favor in a light.

    1. Handle Bar Lights: For me, watching you show the light in your backyard means very little to me. It is out of context, I don't ride my bike in the backyard so watching you shine a light there doesn't really let me know how it performs on the street. Lights & Motion does it well. An underpass with distance and angle lines on the street. What I am looking for in a handlebar light that can keep the road in front of me lit up, regardless of the noise around me. On-coming traffic, traffic from behind, amber or white street lights, a little rain or fog, you can't get a sense of that from your back-yard. The problem is that every light looks better in total darkness. What I need to know is will the on-coming traffic headlights overpower my light and mask that pothole on the road or not? If I am coming down Claremont at 45+ will the light see the sewer covers in the middle of the road? This light needs a good throw, but it also needs a good flood, especially right in front of you. What good is it to pick-up an object 75 feet out in front of you, if it drops out of the spot into 20 feet in front of you? Makes it difficult to thread the needle, on road or off.

    2. Headlight. This light has saved my life a couple of times. One time, I was crossing in intersection and a driver from the on-coming traffic lane decided to do a snap left to beat the traffic. Had it not been for my headlight flooding his windshield forcing him to hit the breaks hard, he would have taken me out. I am sure many of you have had something like this happen to you. While I like handlebar light have a good flood to it, I like the Headlight to be a good spot, one that doesn't get washed out by the headlight, and as long as I keep it focused on the road, it won't blind on-coming traffic. For example, the Vis-360 ranked well as a commuter light, but it is difficult to tell how much stopping power it has. I would like to see lights for helmets waived back and forth around a handlebar light so I get a feel for what it adds to the light. My problem is if you get a light that doesn't match the handlebar light well, then when looking to the side you have to wait for your eyes to adjust lower light level. What you want is that where ever you put your spot, your eyes are already adjusted.

    3. Tail Light. Francois, you mentioned during your review of the Vis-180 that you wondered why it didn't just flash, it it went in and out. The reason is that a flashing light is harder for a driver to judge distance, especially in less than optimal conditions. I liked the 10-led NiteRider tail light, for more than a decade, nothing came close. I used it in always on mode and a battery one in flasher mode. What I want to see in a tail light is how far can you see it clearly? Put a car 100 feet away with the tail lights on, then put the tail light 10 feet to the right, how does it relate? I know you said you can't film it in flash mode, but you could put a whole bar of lights next to a car tail light (not braking) at different distances. Right away, we would be able to see the performance of the whole line in one shot. How about a shot during the day? I like riding with a flasher all the time. Remember, I live up at Tahoe and I have to compete with the lake for people's attention.

    Lastly, what I would like to see is for you to match systems in different price ranges. If you had $200, what helmet, handlebar and tail light would you choose, What if you had $300, $700, you get the idea.

    I am sorry if got carried away in my first post. I hope some of what I said was useful.

    - Roger

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    That would be dyno-mite

    Do I have to keep pedaling though while taking a photo?

    What are the most important dyno lights out there?

    fc
    No pedaling for photos, the dyno is in the front wheel!

    I think the most popular are the Schmidt Edelux, the Supernova E3 in symmetric, asymmetric, and triple configurations (I use the triple), and maybe the B&M Lumotec IQ Fly.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimInSF View Post
    No pedaling for photos, the dyno is in the front wheel!

    I think the most popular are the Schmidt Edelux, the Supernova E3 in symmetric, asymmetric, and triple configurations (I use the triple), and maybe the B&M Lumotec IQ Fly.
    Rollers?
    See here for some examples of dyno beams:
    headlight beams from Peter White Cycles

  35. #135
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    I am going to redo this video, but you guys can take a peek at my ramblings.

    edits:
    - keep it under 5 minutes
    - stop saying 'umm' all the time
    - get a temperature gun to get a real reading.
    - point all lights at the wall
    - wear better shorts

    fc


  36. #136
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    Francois, one of our lbs is selling the Surfas True1500. How would you rate their lumen claims? Second, i was wondering if you have anything fron High Beam? They are showing a new light called the Night Nemesis X-12 claiming up to 4500 lumens.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I am going to redo this video, but you guys can take a peek at my ramblings.

    edits:
    - keep it under 5 minutes
    - stop saying 'umm' all the time
    - get a temperature gun to get a real reading.
    - point all lights at the wall
    - wear better shorts

    fc

    u can get a cheap small temp gun at any local r/c shop , would be very helpful if you could somehow note how much lumen output drops with temp increase

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by suvowner View Post
    u can get a cheap small temp gun at any local r/c shop , would be very helpful if you could somehow note how much lumen output drops with temp increase
    Yessir!! I am RC guy so I used to have an awesome temp gun.

    fc
    Last edited by fc; 10-03-2011 at 04:34 PM.

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    Francois, one of our lbs is selling the Surfas True1500. How would you rate their lumen claims? Second, i was wondering if you have anything fron High Beam? They are showing a new light called the Night Nemesis X-12 claiming up to 4500 lumens.
    Serfas Lumen claims are legit. That is at least 1500 lumens. That measured 133 lux on my meter and it ran for 2 hours 8 minutes on high.

    I'll check on Nemesis X-12.

    fc

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    Are you also testing lights from CygoLite like the MityCross 480 and the cordless Expilion lights?

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    Quote Originally Posted by djembe975 View Post
    Are you also testing lights from CygoLite like the MityCross 480 and the cordless Expilion lights?
    Yes. What are the significant lights from Cygolite? They don't want to send lights so I'll just buy them.

    fc

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    Quote Originally Posted by indebt View Post
    ...new light called the Night Nemesis X-12 claiming up to 4500 lumens.
    Only 4500 lumens? We need at least 9000! And a battery pack the size of the one in a Tesla roadster.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-tesla-roadster-battery-pack.jpg  

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    LOL!!!! i know, even tooo much for me if you can believe that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Yes. What are the significant lights from Cygolite? They don't want to send lights so I'll just buy them.

    fc
    I'm particularly interested in the MityCross 480 and the Expilion 400 cordless series mainly due to size and price.

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    I second the Expillion 400. It would make a very good "back up" light and be good for commuting as well.
    Francois, have you contacted Nightlightning in NZ? I rate my twin IBlaast IX highly and would love to see it matched up against the others in the extreme lumen catergory.

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    It would be interesting to see the Cygolite Turbo 740. Claimed 740 lumen at $170 MSRP.

    The new Lezyne lights look good for the price as well.

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    Hey Francois,

    Your doing great work! Too bad about the cygolites, I probably wont buy one cause they decided not to send you one. Sucks because of the 400-600 lumen lights, the expilion was the cheapest.

    Any update on when you will either be releasing some reviews or when the shootout is going live?

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Serfas Lumen claims are legit. That is at least 1500 lumens. That measured 133 lux on my meter and it ran for 2 hours 8 minutes on high.

    I'll check on Nemesis X-12.

    fc
    Sounds like a contender for it's lumen output range.
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyin View Post
    Hey Francois,

    Your doing great work! Too bad about the cygolites, I probably wont buy one cause they decided not to send you one. Sucks because of the 400-600 lumen lights, the expilion was the cheapest.

    Any update on when you will either be releasing some reviews or when the shootout is going live?
    I personally wouldn't suggest you drop them out of consideration just because they don't send lights in to this mtbr light shootout. There could be very valid reasons why they don't wish to participate, and at least in my opinion it in no way reflects poorly on them.
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

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    Cygolite, legit reasons not to partcipate, lay them on me! Im all ears and eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyharris View Post
    I personally wouldn't suggest you drop them out of consideration just because they don't send lights in to this mtbr light shootout. There could be very valid reasons why they don't wish to participate, and at least in my opinion it in no way reflects poorly on them.
    Randyharris:

    You know, I would really enjoy hearing any valid reasons for them not to participate. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything. I honestly cant think why every other major player in the bike light business sent their lights in except cygolite, other than they have something to hide/dont think their lights will be able to compete.

    IMHO, if you fail to send your lights in and dont want to bother giving us a reason. Then we are going to think the worst.

    But hey man, if you got some legit reasons you think they wouldnt participate. Lay them on me.

    I'm all ears and eyes.

    Heck as I noted before, Cygolite has the cheapest light in the range that I am looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyin View Post
    Randyharris:

    You know, I would really enjoy hearing any valid reasons for them not to participate. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything. I honestly cant think why every other major player in the bike light business sent their lights in except cygolite, other than they have something to hide/dont think their lights will be able to compete.

    IMHO, if you fail to send your lights in and dont want to bother giving us a reason. Then we are going to think the worst.

    But hey man, if you got some legit reasons you think they wouldnt participate. Lay them on me.

    I'm all ears and eyes.

    Heck as I noted before, Cygolite has the cheapest light in the range that I am looking for.
    If you feel that their not participating should exclude them from your light search, then by all means follow your gut instinct. While I might be disappointed that a light I was considering wasn't thrown into the mix, I wouldn't let it affect my purchase decision.

    Obviously I have no idea why they are not sending lights, and to be honest I only have ever hear their name, I know zero about their lights, the quality, or anything about them.

    It is possible that they're not participating because the testing is not in their opinion performed properly, a light specialist with the specific knowledge may do different things for example than the crude lumen lux testing that has been in prior tests. These MTBR tests also take no weighting on rated products, the Magicshine lights for example don't have UL and UN ratings but I don't believe it's even ever mentioned. I'm sure there are many possible reasons, heck one could even be that they don't think they're product will fair will in a head to head - it's certainly one potential explanation.
    ONE SHOX, ONE GEAR, LOTS of FUN! www.TrailFu.com My Rides

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueyin View Post
    Randyharris:

    You know, I would really enjoy hearing any valid reasons for them not to participate. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything. I honestly cant think why every other major player in the bike light business sent their lights in except cygolite, other than they have something to hide/dont think their lights will be able to compete.

    IMHO, if you fail to send your lights in and dont want to bother giving us a reason. Then we are going to think the worst.

    But hey man, if you got some legit reasons you think they wouldnt participate. Lay them on me.

    I'm all ears and eyes.

    Heck as I noted before, Cygolite has the cheapest light in the range that I am looking for.
    Yeah, I can't think of any "very valid" reasons either. It's somewhere on a continuum from "they're to cheap/lazy to do it, though their actual lights might be fine" to "they're trying to hide something". Somewhere in the range. I know someone who owned a Cygolite told me that at least on one specific light he thought their beamshots on their site were way off and the light wasn't nearly as wide as Cygolite's shot showed it to be. (It was one of the all in one commuter lights, their shot showed it lighting up 2 street lanes, someone who owned it said it was a stretch to just light up one).

    EDIT: I wrote my response before the above the response, so if it seem weird that I would write this in that order that's why.

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    Yeah, I can't think of any "very valid" reasons either. It's somewhere on a continuum from "they're to cheap/lazy to do it, though their actual lights might be fine" to "they're trying to hide something". Somewhere in the range. I know someone who owned a Cygolite told me that at least on one specific light he thought their beamshots on their site were way off and the light wasn't nearly as wide as Cygolite's shot showed it to be. (It was one of the all in one commuter lights, their shot showed it lighting up 2 street lanes, someone who owned it said it was a stretch to just light up one).

    EDIT: I wrote my response before the above the response, so if it seem weird that I would write this in that order that's why.
    Just to put some closure to this (and not violate their privacy too much...) They will not send lights to any publication now and for the last 10 years because they treated unfairly 10 years ago by a magazine.

    I've been getting the runaround from them for the last 4 years so it's good to finally have an answer. And then I have to field inquiries from 50 readers why I don't include them.

    Anyway, I'll just buy them.

    fc

  54. #154
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    When will the Light Shootout be posted?

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by djembe975 View Post
    When will the Light Shootout be posted?
    I will start posting this week and individual reviews on lights will come out daily.

    Just got DesignShine last night. Very nice.

    fc

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    francois, this is just a curious question - with the high powered lights overcoming the dynamic range of cameras (aka either the brightest part of the beam blows out or the dark areas are darker than than are in person) I would just curious if you had considered buying a dslr for their great dynamic range. I think the Nikon d5100 (and it's more expensive d7000 sibling) have the best dynamic range one can fine in a dslr right now. Unfortunately the d5100 requires tricks to set everything manually for video (no problem for pics, but video takes some workarounds).

    Just curious if you had considered it. There's probably some drawbacks, not to mention cost to it so definitely not saying anyone has to, appreciate the wide range of lights you're reviewing and taking beam shots of this year. :-)

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    francois, this is just a curious question - with the high powered lights overcoming the dynamic range of cameras (aka either the brightest part of the beam blows out or the dark areas are darker than than are in person) I would just curious if you had considered buying a dslr for their great dynamic range. I think the Nikon d5100 (and it's more expensive d7000 sibling) have the best dynamic range one can fine in a dslr right now. Unfortunately the d5100 requires tricks to set everything manually for video (no problem for pics, but video takes some workarounds).

    Just curious if you had considered it. There's probably some drawbacks, not to mention cost to it so definitely not saying anyone has to, appreciate the wide range of lights you're reviewing and taking beam shots of this year. :-)

    I have a Nikon D5000 and I'm replacing it with a D7000. Tell me more. I'm using the old Canon G9 for consistency.

    I should try using them.

    I'll PM you with the latest beam photos.

    fc

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    I know more about compacts than I do dslr's, but when you take a pic and find that either the white is blown out, or the light brightness appears normal in the middle but on the edges it turns black in the picture before it turns black in real life that's called "dynamic range" - the range of light the camera can measure at once from the brightest part to the darkest part. The usual example of dynamic range is when you take a picture of someone in the shade with the sky behind them and either they end up really dark and you can see the sky, or the sky ends up totally white and "blown out" even though in reality it was blue with white puffy clouds, not it's a solid white piece. Maybe you already know this.

    But dslr's with their larger sensors have better dynamic range than compact cameras, even the g9. As time goes on they improve the ability of both cameras to capture a wider dynamic range, but from the same generation of tech a dslr should always be capable of capturing more of it. The sensor used in the d5100 and d7000 is developed by Sony and supposedly is the best affordable dslr sensor you can get right now for capturing the maximum dynamic range. Next year Canon will probably come out with a sensor that beats it, lol, but right now it's the best - note that I am mainly more of an expert on compacts, dslr's aren't my usual area of expertise so that is the information I know but I'm not a total expert.

    In theory this would provide a more accurate view of how far to the sides these lights light up. I know when I've tried to take pics before the camera often doesn't show the areas off to the sides like they appear in real life, and in theory this would help with that.

    Here's an example from the Peter White site -
    headlight beams from Peter White Cycles



    In this shot it appears that the light gives off *no* light to the sides and it's completely black. In reality (I know because I own the light) it does give off a little light to the sides.

    It's certainly also totally valid to take all the pics with the same camera from previous years for consistency, and one would have to test it out to see if it *really* makes a difference, in theory though it should create more accurate pictures. Theoretically.

    fyi, the d7000 lets you manually set everything in video, so if you're trying to take video of the light (though that might be a big ungainly to mount on the bike while riding) using consistent video settings that might be an option.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I will start posting this week and individual reviews on lights will come out daily.

    Just got DesignShine last night. Very nice.

    fc
    Francois,

    Thats great ... I was commuting home today ... and for the first time this season I saw the sunset on my commute. By next week most likely I'll be riding at dusk. Note I live in the midwest and thus most people who are on a 9-5 (six for myself) will probably be needing them pretty soon.

    Thanks again for all your hard work.

    Also thanks for at least getting a reason, though not a very good one IMHO, about Cygolite.

  60. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    ...
    fyi, the d7000 lets you manually set everything in video, so if you're trying to take video of the light (though that might be a big ungainly to mount on the bike while riding) using consistent video settings that might be an option.

    Thank you!! I'm definitely getting the D7000 then. We take a lot of video with the D5000 and it won't even focus correctly. If I have the D7000 with fixed video settings, I can ride with it and maybe capture these bike lights in action accurately.

    fc

    in other news: Full-beam is in. Big lights! Also, Blackburn

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    Glad I could help. :-) Note that I do not own the d7000, but that info comes from as reliable a source as possible -
    Nikon D7000 Review: 18. Live View/Movie Mode: Digital Photography Review

    "AF is available during movie recording and shutter speed, aperture and ISO can all be set manually if you so wish (aperture has to be set before the start of recording)."

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    ...though do note that none of the dslr's are particularly great at autofocussing while anything is moving.

    Cameras...they' frickin' complicated aren't they? lol

  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    ...though do note that none of the dslr's are particularly great at autofocussing while anything is moving.

    Cameras...they' frickin' complicated aren't they? lol
    Indeed they are....

    And regarding beamshots, although somewhat objective in nature, I've found that locating the camera as close as possible to where the user's eyes would be normally in relation to the light tends to give a more realistic depiction. Comparative shots off from the side or further behind can also be useful, but maybe not as good at depicting what the rider sees.
    JMHO

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    Francois,

    Just a heads-up - I posted a note to the Digital Photography Review forum asking for appropriate camera settings if using the D5000 and D7000 to test these high-intensity lamps. Hopefully you'll see some very expert responses.

    Thread is at:
    forums[dot]dpreview[dot]com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1055&message=39516703

    How are things going in soliciting tail light samples?

    Cheers!

    a.k.a.

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by a.k.a. View Post
    Francois,

    Just a heads-up - I posted a note to the Digital Photography Review forum asking for appropriate camera settings if using the D5000 and D7000 to test these high-intensity lamps. Hopefully you'll see some very expert responses.

    Thread is at:
    forums[dot]dpreview[dot]com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1055&message=39516703

    How are things going in soliciting tail light samples?

    Cheers!

    a.k.a.
    I only have a few. I have the monster light though.

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_1929-1.jpg  

    2012 Mtbr Lights Shootout.-img_1932.jpg  


  66. #166
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    Cateye is in with Sumo 2, Sumo 3, NanoShot, and Econom Force.

    Tiny Sun Lights and DesignShine are in too.

    Cygolite is now in!!!! Just a couple of lights though. They said this is the first time this decade they're sending a light for review so it's a good win for all.

    fc

  67. #167
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    Which CygoLites are being sent for review?

  68. #168
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    LUX. I want to see these light's lux to lumen rating and the beam pattern...

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    Francois,

    Good for Cygo!

    If you're so inclined, could you shoot NITEFlux an email about sending you some from their lineup -- esp. the Red Zone 4 tail light?

    a.k.a.

  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by djembe975 View Post
    Which CygoLites are being sent for review?
    TridenX 750 OSP (MSRP $349.95 )
    MityCross 480 OSP (MSRP $249.95)

    Meh, I'm negotiating with them right now. The MityCross lights will not fare well against the competition I fear.

    fc

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by a.k.a. View Post
    Francois,

    Good for Cygo!

    If you're so inclined, could you shoot NITEFlux an email about sending you some from their lineup -- esp. the Red Zone 4 tail light?

    a.k.a.
    Yes, Nifeflux!! How could I forget.

    Also, I have full clearance to use the $40k integrating sphere (to measure actual lumens) at Lezyne factory in San Luis Obispo. I'll go there next week.

    fc

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    Can't begin to emagine the hours your putting into all of this Francios, so just a big thank you for all that hard work, and your feedback on the Surfas True1500.

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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    ...
    The MityCross lights will not fare well against the competition I fear.

    fc
    You'd be surprised. I've been riding with a MityCross 400 on my helmet for about 9 months and love it. Pairs well with up to about 1500 lumens on the bar. One has to remember what the MityCross is - not an uber bright light but one that does many things well in a small package with 3.5 hours run time on high. With that said, it does do better on the lid than on the bars.

  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    TridenX 750 OSP (MSRP $349.95 )
    MityCross 480 OSP (MSRP $249.95)

    Meh, I'm negotiating with them right now. The MityCross lights will not fare well against the competition I fear.

    fc
    Try to get them to send you at least their new Turbo 740 light as that might stack up better against the competition especially for the price. Turbo 740

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheHill View Post
    You'd be surprised. I've been riding with a MityCross 400 on my helmet for about 9 months and love it. Pairs well with up to about 1500 lumens on the bar. One has to remember what the MityCross is - not an uber bright light but one that does many things well in a small package with 3.5 hours run time on high. With that said, it does do better on the lid than on the bars.
    Good feedback.

    These new lights though... so bright, so cheap and so light.

    For runtime, you can run a lot of these new lights at half power and they would still be mighty bright.

    fc

  76. #176
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    I have a TridenX 750xtra and a Cygolite Turbo 740
    If I can get my wife to set up her cannon I will post some beam shots between the two
    I can tell right now that the turbo is more of a spot light
    It is dark and late in Wisconsin

    Going for a ride SJ
    I am slow therefore I am

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlowerJoe View Post
    I have a TridenX 750xtra and a Cygolite Turbo 740
    If I can get my wife to set up her cannon I will post some beam shots between the two
    I can tell right now that the turbo is more of a spot light
    It is dark and late in Wisconsin

    Going for a ride SJ
    Is the Turbo as bright as depicted on the CygoLite website? And does it have a nice halo around the spit.

  78. #178
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    the turbo is as bright as the TridenX
    It has more of a hotspot in the center
    I would say it looks really close to the web
    It also fits the TridenX helmet mount so I might give it a try there
    has a built in red tail light
    hope this makes some sense I need to get some sleep

    Sj
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  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Yes, Nifeflux!! How could I forget.

    fc
    Hi Francis,

    just got a message from a mystery fan to check out this thread and contribute some samples.
    So many offerings these days. Will go for the ones that are significantly different I think.

    PMini12: 1000 lm, 35g for head unit, wireless remote control.
    Red Zone 4: 200 lm tail light, 180 deg beam pattern, integrated battery.

    Let me know if there are any other requests. Sent email but not 100% sure I got your current contact details. Check inbox or send me PM to make arrangements.

    Cheers,
    David

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    I'd second the Niteflux Redzone 4 suggestion Franscois. The company chief, David is very friendly and helpful.
    Savvas

  81. #181
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    Can the tail light be turned off? On the bar that seems like it would be a distraction.

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    Wooo Hoooo! I wonder if they read the thread? I hope that our discussion of their lights had just a little bit to do with them sending you the lights. I sure tried to do my part!

    Now if they would only send the expilion 400 or the turbojet 740!
    Yay for the power of the internet!

  83. #183
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    1st post here!!! WoooOOOOooot!!!!

    Thanks for doing this, I am in the market for a new light. Believe it or not I have a niterider I bought in the early 90s and it still works.

  84. #184
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    the tail light is easy on the eyes
    looks cool and is easy to operate with gloves
    I am slow therefore I am

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    Francois, thanks for doing this shootout. I was going to buy a MS, but after 4-5 videos of your backyard, i just going to hold my wallet.

    I had a bad experience with NITERIDER and JENSON. I bought a minewt x2 300 couple a years ago, and after 1 year of NR( probably 20-25 rides) it dies. Was a bad experience for $240.

    All my regards from Mexico.

    Carlos Durazo

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    Francois, where will you be placing the reviews? In this thread or someplace else? Thx

    Curtis

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    Quote Originally Posted by cue003 View Post
    Francois, where will you be placing the reviews? In this thread or someplace else?
    Link near the top of the page under the banner ad
    Lights Shootout | Mountain Bike Review

  88. #188
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    ^^^^^^ thx a bunch for the link.

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    Thanks Francois for taking the time to do these tests. I, like others in this forum, am in the market for a set of lights for night riding. My local LBS's carry a very limited variety of lights. It is great to find one location where brands are compared, so we as a consumer can make better informed choices.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Hi I'm new here but have a question on the battery spec stated by Exposure six pack MK2

    the light is only 4.5 x 2.25 inches 6x XP-G-LEDs, battery included within this package of 15600Mah.
    I find this very hard to believe. I think it is 2500mAh as it only has a burn time of 3 hrs on full.
    Here's my calcs;
    it uses 6 x Cree Xp-G R6 leds = 139 lm per 350mA
    1925lm / 6 = 321lm led ok losses so as their claim 325lm led
    325 / 139 = 2.34 there fore 2.34 x 350 = 819mAh for all leds in series.
    819 x max burn time = 2457 so there fore a battery of 2500mAh
    Otherwise 15600 would give a burn time on full 19 hours.

    Any one explain why they state 15600, been in touch with them but no response!

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    sorry its 6 x XP-G R6 lEDs

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    Quote Originally Posted by GDES View Post
    sorry its 6 x XP-G R6 lEDs
    ... answer and rant...

    Somebody probably just goofed:
    If they are running six cells in series and incorrectly multiplied each cell's capacity by 6 then you could have
    6x2600maH = 15600mAH total

    However, this is WRONG. Six 2600mAH cells in series is still only 2600mAH, just at a much higher voltage.

    It's not out of the question to be running in that configuration, since for a 6 cell series pack you have:
    Nominal voltage = 3.7 x 6 = 22.2V
    Full charge = 4.2 x 6 = 25.2V
    Discharged voltage = 3.0-ish x 6 = 18V

    @1.5Amp, Max forward voltage of 6 XPG in series = approx. 3.5 x 6 = 21V
    @1.0Amp, Max forward voltage of 6 XPG in series = approx. 3.3 x 6 = 19.8V

    So, from this it would make sense that they could be using a buck regulator and then perhaps letting it drop out of regulation as it reaches the end of the charge.

    You can see that at a drive level of 1 amp you're easily pulling 20WATTS and at 1.5amp drive, you're at 31.5 WATTS.

    Add 10% for controller efficiencies and you're looking at (for the XP-G R5 bin):
    23 watts, 1amp drive, 2085 (theoretical) lumens (no loss), 2.5 hour run time
    35 watts, 1.5 amp drive, 2752 (theoretical) lumens (no loss), 1 hr 38min run time

    You can see from this why the lumen war beyond about 1200 to 1500 lumens starts to get ridiculous.

    First of all, it is completely likely that you would NEVER NOTICE an increase from 2085 to 2752 lumens from the same light source; however, you just paid for that 32% increase in lumens with 13 WATTS and a 1hr shorter run time. In fact, starting with a 1200 lumen light, you need to more than DOUBLE the output to even have a noticeable and/or meaningful impact on the perceived brightness. At night, you can even argue that too much light intensity begins to adversely affect your peripheral awareness due to your pupils closing down.

    In my opinion, going much beyond 1200 to 1500 lumens from a single light source begins to be ineffective. You're MUCH better off with two 1200+ lumen sources that can be aimed to cover greater area or more specific coverage (i.e. spot vs. flood) while staying in the efficiency "sweet spot."

    The super powerful 2000+ lumen race from a single light head is cool and all, but it has definitely gone into the realm of diminishing returns in the name of 1-up-ing the competition. Again, just in my opinion.

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    I agree it sounds like they have and a nice response thanks.

    I tried a Stella 120 against a 975lm light recently and gob smacked at the very little difference in light output.

    The reflector has a lot going for it, the Stella uses a custom alloy reflector with one of the narrowest beams out there, good for road use but a broader beam is required for off road riding. The alloy reflector is considerably more efficient than a polymer one!

    Anyone know where I can get a decent remote switch ?
    Cheers

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    Anxiously Awaiting Shootout

    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    I will start posting this week and individual reviews on lights will come out daily.

    fc
    Sorry if you have already posted but is there a url set for this year's shootout? I am desperately in need of new lights (riding at 5:00 am here in BC) and was going to put in an order next weekend but will gladly wait until you have posted.

    grant

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    Quote Originally Posted by pethelman View Post
    ... answer and rant...

    You can see from this why the lumen war beyond about 1200 to 1500 lumens starts to get ridiculous.

    First of all, it is completely likely that you would NEVER NOTICE an increase from 2085 to 2752 lumens from the same light source; however, you just paid for that 32% increase in lumens with 13 WATTS and a 1hr shorter run time. In fact, starting with a 1200 lumen light, you need to more than DOUBLE the output to even have a noticeable and/or meaningful impact on the perceived brightness. At night, you can even argue that too much light intensity begins to adversely affect your peripheral awareness due to your pupils closing down.
    Most of this is true. Whenever I design a new light, if it is going to have double the lumen output of a predecessor model, then I aim to give it about double the beam area. There is just no sense in increasing spot brightness. These are bicycle lights, not spotlights. And I'm really not sure there is any point going above 2000 lm. We have some very hardcore test riders at NiteFlux, with elite fitness and skill levels. Our 2000 lm model sees them physically exhausted at the end of a ride. That is, they are not able to go any harder. The lights are not the limiting factor. So, I think that there is really not much point going above 2000 lm.

    As a parallel note. There was a call above for intensity readings at a distance. I would not recommend this for a bicycle lighting context. While it is common for high end hand torches to quote the distance to 1 lux, this is a very different application. Most of our bike light models have a throw of around 80m - 100m using this method. I would not be true to say that lights that shine further than this are better for cycling. The only way to get the light further is to have it more focused (= less peripheral vision) or more total output, using more battery power. Past 2000 lm with a nice spead, there is not much point really.

    Bike lights will never replicate daylight no matter how much output they have. Full sunlight is tens of thousands of lumens per sq meter and there is so much light bouncing around that it looks nothing like the single source that a bike light will only ever be. Simply adding a second light does not make it like sunshine either.

    Certainly there is already LED technology already to allow 5,000 lumens or more in a portable light. While we may even make a 10,000 lm model in the near future, you can be sure it wont come out as a bike light. All you riders out there take note and treat anything over 2000 lm with some healthy cynicism (not to mention a lack of thermal, and other efficiency factor de-rating in the claimed numbers for many of the offerings out there).

    Cheers,
    David

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    Exposure six pack MK2

    Problem with this light is if they goofed why is it being advertised everywhere as having 15600mAh, if you buy one & it turns out they are wrong & it us a 2600 battery then they will have to compensate buyers or provide a 15600 battery under EU trading standards law.

    Could send the company under so don't understand why they are not correcting this error or even replying.
    If I bought this light I would be well p***** ***.

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    It's great to have such balanced and obviously informed comment on this forum from bike light manufacturers - thanks Stephen and David.

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    Yes, thanks for a great post, David.

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    Hey Francois,

    Thanks for the great work. I appreciate the fact that you reviewing road bicycling (what you call "commuter") lights even though this is a MTB site.

    Any plans to test the Sigma Sport PowerLED EVO 900? 900 lumens may seem low in 2012, but this one has great optics - very even long throw beam. It works very well on my helmet with the Philips SafeRide light on the bar for trails/MTBing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GDES View Post
    Problem with this light is if they goofed why is it being advertised everywhere as having 15600mAh, if you buy one & it turns out they are wrong & it us a 2600 battery then they will have to compensate buyers or provide a 15600 battery under EU trading standards law.

    Could send the company under so don't understand why they are not correcting this error or even replying.
    If I bought this light I would be well p***** ***.
    It would seem that they have a very "eager" PR department and with their "spec" sheet being widely distributed to a lot of vendors, it might be difficult to make a correction.

    It does bring up a very good point though. With the competition being as tight as it is, and without some well defined "standards" in specifying bike light performance, you have to be a bit skeptical these days of most quoted specifications, unless there is supporting test data or explanation of how they arrived at the numbers.

    All the more why some objective testing such as this is valuable to the cycling community in general.

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