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  1. #1
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    So thats where all the S2 leds went too

    Spotted this http://www.youtube.com/user/nutnfancy#p/u/0/fspqYcuKJEE on cpf

    and as well as some fantastic lights it does explain why no one could get S2 XPGs .

  2. #2
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    ...Scun.thorpe, UK

  3. #3
    meep meep !!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEY HEY ITS HENDO
    Handlebar or helmet?


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Road_Runner
    Handlebar or helmet?

    I'd go for one of each. If your going to carry 32 cells, you might as well carry 64. Needless to say I think the trail will be adequately lit

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEY HEY ITS HENDO
    I'd like to order the XM-18 for plane spotting.

    After listening to the trout Youtube link I have to admit, I'm a bit peeved. How could Cree sell all of their S2's to ONE manufacturer? That stinks. What if they do that with the higher bin XM-L's! That really, really sucks big time. It seems 4sevens is trying to corner the market on high bin LED's. Just for that reason, I don't think I would buy from them. David Chow, you suck.

  6. #6
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    I thought the goal of Cree was to have all of the street lights, road signs & home lighting in the world move to LED. That's not going to happen if they sell ALL of the good stuff to one torch company. Cree haven't done themselves any favours if the general public can only buy the not so good left-overs.

    But on the other hand if I had made 20,000 of a certain product and someone offered to buy the lot I wouldn't tell them to go away.

    Just shows the power of money.

    As Hendo pointed out, it looks like 4sevens are set on grabbing the lot of everything new that comes from Cree.

    It must be hard for companies like Cutter who must get aked continuously when the latest bin will be in stock.
    Last edited by yetibetty; 02-06-2011 at 08:18 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetibetty
    I thought the goal of Cree was to have all of the street lights, road signs & home lighting in the world move to LED. That's not going to happen if they sell ALL of the good stuff to one torch company. Cree haven't done themselves any favours if the general public can only buy the not so good left-overs.

    But on the other hand if I had made 20,000 of a certain product and someone offered to buy the lot I wouldn't tell them to go away.

    Just shows the power of money.

    As Hendo pointed out, it looks like 4sevens are set on grabbing the lot of everything new that comes from Cree.

    It must be hard for companies like Cutter who must get asked continuously when the latest bin will be in stock.
    No, not money...greed. Not sure I should of placed all the blame on 4Sevens because it was Cree who made the ultimate decision to show favoritism to one buyer. This practice will not fair well with most Americans who believe in fairness in the market place. Not sure how long 4Sevens has held the monopoly on the S2 but hopefully in the future ( Cree ) will reconsider this practice once the public catches wind of it. All of this has the stink of collusion. Be it illegal or not, it shows poor business ethics on the part of both parties. In a nutshell: Favoritism Stinks.

    Yes, if this keeps up Cutter and every other buyer will have their problems.

    How long do you think this youtube video interview will stay up?
    I bet it disappears in a couple days.
    Last edited by Cat-man-do; 02-07-2011 at 12:03 AM.

  8. #8
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    Why would you guys question the ethics of CREE's business model? I really, really doubt anybody on this forum criticizing them for selling out all of their S2 binned LEDS knows the whole story. While I admit I don't know either, from a business standpoint, it's totally understandable.
    ask yourself this...

    is CREE done with the XP-G? was S2 (or S3) the highest bin they will make? not likely, so perhaps they had a load of S2 to get rid of and found the first buyer.

    In case you missed the news on CREE within the past week or two, they were heavily criticized by the media because they had so much inventory stockpiled. Money tied up in old product isn't great. Sounds to me like they did a good thing by moving product.

    Perhaps competition is good? Maybe companies like Cutter should step up their game if they want to play in the big dance? Maybe you should boycott CREE and use inferior leds from other manufacturers.

    These are my thoughts and my opinions. Take them as you wish. I'm just trying to throw out some different sides of the story before people are so quick to the trigger.

  9. #9
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    funnily enough AMD had this same issue when it brought out its first dual core CPUs - it couldn't supply enough for both big customers and the retail channel, so went with the big customers. Main reason is that big orders are a better business model than dribs and drabs to the retail channel - more consistent income, easier to match production capacity to demand and so on.

    Didn't stop the peeps in the retail channel *****ing and whining about being betrayed etc etc, but at the end of the day no one remembers about it and it really didn't make any difference in the long run. Fairness doesn't have any place in the business world - all that matters is getting as much product out there with the highest margin possible and the biggest market share so that the company can generate the highest possible return on investment and keep the owners/ shareholders happy. Pretending anything else is, I'm afraid to say, naive.

    EDIT, heh, didn't realise a female dog was considered swearing

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    No, not money...greed. Not sure I should of placed all the blame on 4Sevens because it was Cree who made the ultimate decision to show favoritism to one buyer. This practice will not fair well with most Americans who believe in fairness in the market place.
    America is capitalism and by that definition greed is essential and fairness is no existent. Personally, I would like easy access to s2/3 bin xpg led. At the same time, as a business owner, if a buyer offered to purchase all the product I produced I would certainly sell to them. You'd be a fool not to especially in a economy where cash is king and equity will only get you so far.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BKruahnndon
    Why would you guys question the ethics of CREE's business model? I really, really doubt anybody on this forum criticizing them for selling out all of their S2 binned LEDS knows the whole story. While I admit I don't know either, from a business standpoint, it's totally understandable.
    ask yourself this...

    is CREE done with the XP-G? was S2 (or S3) the highest bin they will make? not likely, so perhaps they had a load of S2 to get rid of and found the first buyer.....


    .....These are my thoughts and my opinions. Take them as you wish. I'm just trying to throw out some different sides of the story before people are so quick to the trigger.
    Did you listen to the video? Did you hear David Chow say that he bought out All of the S2 bins and that NO ONE else has them or can get them? No, I don't know the whole story but what I'm hearing from D.C. has a stench to it. All opinions are welcome and add to the discussion. My comments are based on what the man said.

    Upper bin LED's are hard to manufacture. There are only so many to go around. With so many people and companies waiting for these bins it is sad to hear a story like this. Heck, I'm not whining about 4Sevens buying them, I'm hissing because they bought them ALL! No way a torch maker is going to sell that many of one torch. They did this just so no one else could buy or use the S2 bin. Hopefully you are right and more S2's will be produced by Cree. Hopefully these won't be hoarded as well. In the mean time I will not buy from 4Sevens. I truly hope they are left holding the bag on a boat-load of excess S2's.

    I disagree with what the others are saying about free enterprise and capitalism. In our country we have laws to protect against those who have too much greed. That is why we have anti-trust laws and laws against monopolies. Capitalism thrives on competition and competition relies on fair business practices. I don't know if Cree or 4Sevens are breaking any laws but I call their ethics into question.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    They did this just so no one else could buy or use the S2 bin
    then they run the very real risk that they'll have unused inventory, which cuts their bottom line. If that is the case then I'm sure they're doing it with their eyes open and being the only provider of that LED bin might gain them enough in sales or MRSP to offset the extra cost of having unused LEDs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    In our country we have laws to protect against those who have too much greed.
    and you should listen to how much you all whine and moan when an American company is hit with an anti-trust lawsuit by the EU. It really is rather strange to hear someone from a country that was literally founded on unfettered capitalism, with such relatively relaxed anti-trust laws, complain about such common business practices. It's not unethical, it's common business sense on both sides - Cree wants to sell it's LEDs and doing so in big batches means it spends less time and money selling to the minnows (us) while 4sevens wants either enough LEDs for an entire product line or a competitive advantage.

    Sure we lose out, I guess, but no one on either side of that transaction really gives a monkeys about us.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattthemuppet
    ....and you should listen to how much you all whine and moan when an American company is hit with an anti-trust lawsuit by the EU. It really is rather strange to hear someone from a country that was literally founded on unfettered capitalism, with such relatively relaxed anti-trust laws, complain about such common business practices. It's not unethical, it's common business sense on both sides .....

    ....Sure we lose out, I guess, but no one on either side of that transaction really gives a monkeys about us.
    Huh?...who is "you all". I don't know any "you all". Is this comment about the Microsoft thing? By "you all" do you mean the Microsoft lawyers? Who the hell cares about them? Power to the EU!

    About your last statement:
    Sure we lose out, I guess, but no one on either side of that transaction really gives a monkeys about us.
    EXACTLY THE POINT! And they won't care about us monkeys until us monkeys decide that the monkey deal they worked out for themselves is nothing but monkey business. Knowing that we can best spend our monkey money somewhere else where they won't make us feel like ...well, a bunch of monkeys.

    ...for some reason I have a sudden craving for a banana. Care to join me?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    Huh?...who is "you all".
    all of the US media, almost all your democratically elected politicians, countless blogs, foreign envoys. Clearly, I haven't canvassed every single US citizen, but you get the point. Obviously, the US is not only characterised by its rampant unfettered capitalism but also by a heavily unionised public work force and a large uneducated poor population, so me making sweeping statements about US attitudes to competition is probably some way off the mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-man-do
    About your last statement:

    EXACTLY THE POINT! And they won't care about us monkeys until us monkeys decide that the monkey deal they worked out for themselves is nothing but monkey business. Knowing that we can best spend our monkey money somewhere else where they won't make us feel like ...well, a bunch of monkeys.

    ...for some reason I have a sudden craving for a banana. Care to join me?
    Well, for one thing, us monkeys not spending $20 buying 2 Cree LEDs really isn't going to make Cree sit up and pay attention. Perhaps 10,000 of us might make a difference, but I really doubt all several hundred of the mtbr DIY light community, plus all of CPF and then some is going to not buy the best and latest LEDs they can get, just because they can't get a specific bin. This really is a storm in a teacup, give it a few months and I'd wager virtually nobody will remember this or even care about it.

    ps. I don't like bananas

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattthemuppet
    all of the US media, almost all your democratically elected politicians, countless blogs, foreign envoys. Clearly, I haven't canvassed every single US citizen, but you get the point. Obviously, the US is not only characterised by its rampant unfettered capitalism but also by a heavily unionised public work force and a large uneducated poor population, so me making sweeping statements about US attitudes to competition is probably some way off the mark.

    Well, for one thing, us monkeys not spending $20 buying 2 Cree LEDs really isn't going to make Cree sit up and pay attention. Perhaps 10,000 of us might make a difference, but I really doubt all several hundred of the mtbr DIY light community, plus all of CPF and then some is going to not buy the best and latest LEDs they can get, just because they can't get a specific bin. This really is a storm in a teacup, give it a few months and I'd wager virtually nobody will remember this or even care about it.

    ps. I don't like bananas
    The unhighlighted part I won't comment about. It is your opinion and I won't try to change it however dark I think it may be.

    Now about the other part, unfortunately I find I have to agree with what you are saying. I will say though that I have no intention of boycotting Cree. Since 4Sevens was the mastermind of the deal I'll cut Cree some slack. Besides, I don't think I would be able to upgrade without Cree. 4Sevens I can live without. Yes this is just ripples in the teacup. I don't kid myself that it is anything more than that. Perhaps you are right and nobody will remember or even take notice. Who's to say?....However....I will point out that not too long ago a couple people had some problems with the MagicShine battery. They started to complain and low and behold....What a freaking ball of wax that became! Almost everyone that knows anything about bike lighting caught wind of that tempest, even the Chinese. The high end torch market is a relatively small market but does have ample competition. Need I say they also cater to a small market of buyers willing to fork out the hundred$ needed to buy one of these torches. If sales of 4Sevens products were to drop ( however unlikely that may be ) it would surprise me.

    ...And for what it's worth, I don't like bananas that much either. However if I decide to eat one I will make sure it has Chiquita written on the label and not 4Sevens...

  16. #16
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    My take is with the speed in which technology advances, the XPG led is already outdated now the XML has arrived. Once specific optics arrive why would you go back.

    I would assume 4sevens had large batches of XPG reflectors and lens's made (since the larger the batch the cheaper the cost) so they need a bright die to power them, the S2 being the brightest choice. The fact that Cree sold them all to one company is Cree's prerogative but we also do not know how many more batches of the S2 they are going to make.

    Did cree do the right thing, no, 4sevens bought what they were able so was it their fault, not really, but with all commercial decisions we will never know what transpired behind closed doors.
    Last edited by brad72; 02-08-2011 at 04:34 PM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad72
    we also do not know how many more batches of the S2 they are going to make.
    I don't think that they make a batch of S2's. They make the dies and then they add the phosphors. Then they results are tested and divided into the brightness and color bins. In general with time they can make more and more of the higher efficiency bins as the production techniques are tweaked. I imagine that they make some S2's today. It just might not be all that many make that highest cut.

    I have a feeling that 4Sevens is paying dearly for those S2 bin LED's.

    Then again perhaps it's all just total marketing BS. It wouldn't be the first time.

  18. #18
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    I still can't get over the fact you guys all watched that 30min video. I was done with the pointless marketing spin when we watched a flashing torch drop from a building during daylight but then don't zoom down to see if its still working. The point of that was...?

    Now Dolphin, or was it Maglight, did a good job a few years back when they ran a semi trailer over their torch and each wheel progressively turned the light from on to off and back again. I got the point of that one

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