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  1. #1
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    Regarding LEDs and HIDs...

    Regarding LEDs and HIDs...

    People here say that LEDs have surpassed HIDs. Maybe the technology and potential has, but what production LED is going to give me more light than a L&M arc? For that matter is there any other HID I should be thinking about?

    I have up to $350 to use and so far the L&M arc at $325 seems to be my best bet. -Right now I have too many projects so DIY make-a-light isn't an option. What do you think???

    (*things have changed a lot since I bought my last light in 2001, a 20w jet halogen. lets just say it isn't as bright as it used to be )
    Last edited by Locoman; 07-18-2007 at 01:55 PM.
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  2. #2
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    I think some of the latest top line LED's are now equal too or maybe even better than most HID's.
    LED's like: Dinotte 500, Wilma 4 (upgraded) & 6, & Nightlightning Blast to name a few with the added advantage in most cases of extended battery life and also the LED's being generally lighter.

    However the costs of these LED's remain simular to HID's so take your pick LED or HID

    Don't forget that a replacement HID bulb is still close to $100 and they don't like being turned on & off and are more fragile than LED's and will eventualy ware out

    The L & M Arc at $325 is still good buying
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  3. #3
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    Most of the recent three or four emitter lights should be around the same ballpark as an average 10 watt HID, or a little brighter. Ambiguous I know, but there’s a fair bit of variation out there.

    LED’s are more robust, dimmable, and these days are more efficient. The downside is that a lot of manufacturers are slow in implementing the latest emitters, which is probably due to demand and financial based reasons. However many are still pricing their lights towards the upper end of the market just because they’re as bright as their expensive HID systems.

    While I do recommend and LED based system these days, the Light and Motion ARC is a great light for the money, and there are plenty of happy riders here on the boards using them without fault.

    Dave.

  4. #4
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    I'll echo what has been said here. Most of the current crop of emitter arrays, DiNotte 500L, Lupine Wilma, Night Lightning, etc. will be as bright (or brighter) than the Arc. The LED lights will be more durable (don't drop your HID), have a longer life, and generally have longer run times.

    The fact that you can dim the LED lights to very low levels will allow you to get outrageous run times. The Wilma, for example, can be dimmed to 1W allowing it to run for something like 30 hours.

    I've run the Arc for quite some time, and Light and Motion is a good company, but I like the LED based lights better.

  5. #5
    GeoMan
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    Quote Originally Posted by James@GearReview

    I've run the Arc for quite some time, and Light and Motion is a good company, but I like the LED based lights better.
    Agreed.
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  6. #6
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    While I agree with the rest that you can buy LEDs that are as bright or brighter and that the LED is much more robust. However, the fact of the matter is that they still aren't as cost effect as an HID with out some sort of DIY effort. I have no doubt that there will soon be a lot more of these on the market and one day soon we shall see some HID killers at a more reasonable price but we aren't there yet.

    On the other hand, I think two 200 lumen lights (one on the helmet and one on the bars) would be more than adequate for riding at full speed. With that, you're still looking at $500 or so for an official production model setup but could easily mod a couple of NR Minewts with some Seoul power for less than $300.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew
    On the other hand, I think two 200 lumen lights (one on the helmet and one on the bars) would be more than adequate for riding at full speed. With that, you're still looking at $500 or so for an official production model setup but could easily mod a couple of NR Minewts with some Seoul power for less than $300.
    2 Dinotte 200L AA's $169 each.

    -D

  8. #8
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    I agree that the commerical market for LED's are just catching up to the HID's but after comparing my homebrew 6 led to all my friends HID's I think they are here to stay and will be brighter and cheaper in time. Mine is about twice as bright as theirs with similar or better run times becuase i can dim it. I think the new bright LED's are so new that the commerical market is just finishing testing them to make sure they are feasable to sell as thier product and not run into problems they didn't see. But they are now starting to come on the market so i think alot more are going to follow real shortly. I already saw a 7 led light that is in the works and if its as bright or brighter than my 6 led light its going to kill the HID's. Don't know what the price will be for it but if its comparable to a HID light i don't see any reason why people wouldn't pick the LED.

  9. #9
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    Are you suggesting that I could buy a commercial LED light and switch out the LEDs for a light brighter than a HID??

    Or is there more to it than that..?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by James@GearReview
    I'll echo what has been said here. Most of the current crop of emitter arrays, DiNotte 500L, Lupine Wilma, Night Lightning, etc. will be as bright (or brighter) than the Arc. The LED lights will be more durable (don't drop your HID), have a longer life, and generally have longer run times.

    The fact that you can dim the LED lights to very low levels will allow you to get outrageous run times. The Wilma, for example, can be dimmed to 1W allowing it to run for something like 30 hours.

    I've run the Arc for quite some time, and Light and Motion is a good company, but I like the LED based lights better.
    I'm way behind on the learning curve so forgive me but looking at dinotte's website the 500L only give 450 lumens at 2.5 hours run time. But the Arc has 675 lumens at 3 hours.
    Should I be keying in on something other than lumens??

    I'm aware of Lupines prices so I'm not even going to look into that one. *sigh*

    And is it me or is Night Lighting's website terrible? They might make a fantastic product, but I really don't know what to make of them..
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locoman
    Are you suggesting that I could buy a commercial LED light and switch out the LEDs for a light brighter than a HID??

    Or is there more to it than that..?
    No, I was suggesting that for $338 (rather than the $500 mentioned in another post) you can have 2 commercial 200lumen lights.

    -D

  12. #12
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    you need to take lumens with a pinch of salt

    most of it is "sales lumens" which is different to real lumens out of the front

    there are a few LED systems around that will match/beat the 10w HIDs

    but if you have a little diy skills then you can change the leds in an older led system
    or make your own light

    basicly with the very latest leds your looking at a tested (not sales) output of about 210 lumens per emitter then id take 80% of that as coming out of the front of the system
    so call it about 180 per emitter then times that by the number of emitters

    so if you get an old cateye tripple shot and put 3 of the new seoul led in it your looking at about 540 lumens for the same runtime

    all this is really rough guessing and dosnt help as all the HID ratings will probably be lies too

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derath
    No, I was suggesting that for $338 (rather than the $500 mentioned in another post) you can have 2 commercial 200lumen lights.

    -D

    I wasn't sure about the 200L because it isn't directly listed on their website or maybe I missed it. I only saw the 200L listed in the upgrade section. But again, I would rather have the Li-Ion batteries although not necessarily the NR batteries since the switch and electronics are in the battery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Locoman
    Are you suggesting that I could buy a commercial LED light and switch out the LEDs for a light brighter than a HID??

    Or is there more to it than that..?
    My suggested option of replacing the K2 with SSC P4 in two Minewts would still not be as bright as the HID but it certainly would be enough light. It would be lighter, more compact, allow for redundancy with two separate lights and two separate batteries, similar burn times and definitely less fragile than HID. The downside would be that it would be overall less bright. Pick your poison.
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  14. #14
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    LED are getting better, but right now there is still no comparison to HID if you figure lumens/watt/price. The L&M still puts out more light for less money and burns longer on the same battery than any commercially available LED light system.

  15. #15
    GeoMan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derath
    2 Dinotte 200L AA's $169 each.

    -D
    Actually, $149.99 each or $299.98 for two...

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  16. #16
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    I think your best bet right now would be to wait about 6 to 12 months. I think the best setup would be a 3 LED light on the bar, which will be just as bright as an HID, and a single or double on your helmet. Unless you are doing nighttime downhill runs, that will be plenty of light.

    Also, that 570 lumen output is BS if you ask me. I have the datasheet from the Welch Allyn HID bulb (used in all of the 10w HID lights) and the rated output is 450 lumens. It can obviously be slightly overdriven, but not as much as a Halogen. But of course this will also shorten the lifespan. Basically, using 3 of the Souel or Cree LEDs will give you about the same amount of light as an HID.

    Mark

  17. #17
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    Here's how I look at it right now:

    The Lupine Edison is the brightest HID followed by the L&M ARC. The ARC starts at around $35 while the Edison is close to $1K.

    I have not run into any HID that compares favorably to these two. The ARC is a steal at that price.

    I have also seen a pic or two the 7-LED Lupine that is going to come out soon. That WILL be the brightest LED around and will be brighter than the ARC (though I can't outrun the ARC) BUT it will be more expensive than the Edison. So we are looking at over $1K for it. Also, with 7 LEDs, it makes for a big lamp unit

    So till a 2-3 LED 800-1000 Lumen light comes out WITH a good beam pattern and no hot spot (if in doubt, compare the ARC beam pattern to some of the other HIDs) at a price point close to $400-$500 ($350 would be great), the value simply isn't there for many riders, myself included.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GEOMAN

    Well yes, from you. But I bought mine direct so I could take advantage of the free upgrade for my older 5W

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Here's how I look at it right now:

    The Lupine Edison is the brightest HID followed by the L&M ARC. The ARC starts at around $35 while the Edison is close to $1K.

    I have not run into any HID that compares favorably to these two. The ARC is a steal at that price.

    I have also seen a pic or two the 7-LED Lupine that is going to come out soon. That WILL be the brightest LED around and will be brighter than the ARC (though I can't outrun the ARC) BUT it will be more expensive than the Edison. So we are looking at over $1K for it. Also, with 7 LEDs, it makes for a big lamp unit

    So till a 2-3 LED 800-1000 Lumen light comes out WITH a good beam pattern and no hot spot (if in doubt, compare the ARC beam pattern to some of the other HIDs) at a price point close to $400-$500 ($350 would be great), the value simply isn't there for many riders, myself included.
    What's up Flyer? I couldn't agree more.

    I was about to jump on the ARC deal but had to hold off for a couple of weeks, so I've been using my time to research all I can on the subject of lights... and I totally agree with your take.

    ..Although LEDs might be a cost effective if you take the DIY approach, but I don't have the time.

    Long story short, I'll be making that call on Friday
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  20. #20
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    There already is a 800 some lumen LED out now. It uses 4 LED's but not 2-3, and has an excellent beam pattern, NO hot spot. I realize it's not $350, but there's reason's why they cost the way they do.

  21. #21
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    Solarc lamps (made by Welsh Allyn) that are used by L&M and others will produce (from the Solarc site
    Solarc™ lamps have an output of about 45~60 lumens for every watt of input power.

    The average would be 52.5 lumens/watt or 525 lumens at 10 watts. L&M advertises 675 lumens @ 13.5W, which is 50 Lumens / W. I think the claim is quite reasonable

    I'm not sure which Cree LED you refer to, but the best I have seen are 80-100lm each (averge 90lm?). Three of those would give you an average of 270lm. That's not too close to the 675 that you get from L&M. It looks like LEDs are half way there.

  22. #22
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    I'm riding with 2 ARC lamps and couldn't be happier THe NiMH batteries are very light. Buy the NiMH version. You can upgrade later when Lithium drops in price. The charger and connectors on the NiMH are the same for the Li batteries

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts
    Solarc lamps (made by Welsh Allyn) that are used by L&M and others will produce (from the Solarc site
    Solarc™ lamps have an output of about 45~60 lumens for every watt of input power.

    The average would be 52.5 lumens/watt or 525 lumens at 10 watts. L&M advertises 675 lumens @ 13.5W, which is 50 Lumens / W. I think the claim is quite reasonable

    I'm not sure which Cree LED you refer to, but the best I have seen are 80-100lm each (averge 90lm?). Three of those would give you an average of 270lm. That's not too close to the 675 that you get from L&M. It looks like LEDs are half way there.
    I am not going to argue about the claimed lumen output from the L&M unit, but a couple of other thoughts: That 13.5 watt power is the input, not taking into account loses in the ballast, which will be 5% to 10%.

    I think you are mis-understanding the lumen output of the current LEDs. The newest Cree XR-E Q5 bin have an output of 107 to 114 lumens at 350mA. This seems to be a common current for manufacturers to rate their LEDs against each other. According to Cree's output chart, when these LEDs are driven at 1 amp, their output is 220% of the output at 350mA. That makes between 235 and 250 lumens per LED or between 705 and 750 for 3. Also, each LED will use about 3.7 volts, which for 3 will be 11.1 volts. So a light with 3 of these will be brighter than the L&M HID, and also last longer. Not to mention that it can be dimmed very easily, and actually gets more efficient when dimmed, so your battery will last even longer. I won't even go into the longer life expectancy, lower replacement cost, or the more robust nature of LEDs over HIDs.

    These are of course all theoretical numbers, (but so are the L&M numbers), and no production light uses these LEDs yet! But I have some Q5s in my hands and am working on just such a light. When it is done I will do a good comparison with my current HID light (also homemade) that has been going strong for about 5 years.

    Mark

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    Importing them from Europe is one reason. The Euro has been very strong and I'd rather not buy Euro imports and pay the currency valuation premium against the dollar. If you (not any poster but just in general) trade currency, you will know exactly what I mean. Even the Indian Rupee has appreciated 20% against the dollar lately so imports from India are becoming more expensive as margins are being squeezed. It was the other way around this past decade or two.

    I'll wait till the 800 lumen and higher LEDs are in that price range and I bet they will drop in price as the technology advances- at least the American ones.

    I bought the ARC because it was the best one out there barring the Edison but I can't outrun either one anyway and at $400, the ARC rules the $900 Edison. The Edison is slightly brighter but not $500 brighter and like I said, I can't outrun either one even on fast downhills runs. That $500 went towards a fork.

    I appreciate the Lupine quality but it's seriously handicapped coming in from Europe. It will have to really play a superb game to be worth over $1K- and there is a small demographic willing to pay that to begin with- for ANY light.

    L&M is also working on their next gen LED light beyond the Thelma. It will be taking aim at the 800-1200 lumen range at an affordable price. I'm definitely not saying that LED isn't a great option but get them to HID brightness at an affordable price and the buyers will flock. I am not taking a 300 lumen LED out on these trails and I cannot let myself pay $1K or who knows how much more for the new Lupine LED. I can buy 3-4 HIDs for that much. The price can be justified in many ways but I also know that if the Euro falls, the Lupines will cost less for distributors. Whether they pass the savings on to consumers is another story. I'll wait till LEDs are cheap enough AND bright enough at the same time. $350 and 800 lumens with 3 LEDs is my magic #. Sorry for having such stringent standards

    Hey Locoman, it's going well. My buddy's Halogen died the other night (the other had a commuter LED bright enough to light the handlebar) and I had to guide two of them all the way down 1,000 ft. My neck was killing me. The ARC lit the way for all three of us- two in front and me trying to keep the light pointed far enough ahead on the twisty and steep downhill- painful but we all survived.

  25. #25
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    I'm not anti-LED, but, like Flyer, ....until a commercially available led bike light becomes available, in a comparable or smaller package as HID, with as much light output, at an equivalent price, there's no reason for me to switch.

    Everyone talks about how much more robust LED is, but I've never broken an HID lamp. I expect the useful life will be around 4-5 years, by which time I'd want a new system anyway. The only advantage LED holds for me right now is the dimming capability. Other than that, I get more light at a much lower price....with a superb light pattern than any currently available LED system.

    edit: Could you list the reliability specs for the bin 5 LED at 1A. I'm curious what the life is. I can't find anything about bin 5 on the Cree site. Thanks
    Last edited by Blue Shorts; 07-25-2007 at 03:51 PM.

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    im all for LEDS but saying that ive never seen or used HID

    (just have home made triple cree)

    the only thing i cant understand is why commercial LED systems are so expensive
    there is nothing hugely different about them - infact 3 emitters cost lest than a HID bulb

    so all you have extra is a driver circuit which in most cases is about Ģ10 / $20 extra

    a case is a case - cnc alloy - same for HID or LED

    HID need reflector and lens
    LED need the same or optics
    batteries - same for both

    really LED should be same price

    also people should get over the lumens figures

    remember you eye sees lumens totally different than you can show on paper
    and also remember the manufacturer sees lumens totally different than science does

    so a realistic 600 lumens from a triple setup with the same weight and runtime as a HID at the same cost - totally doable - right NOW

    Alex

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    i know this has already been said

    but 90-100 lumens figure for leds is at 350ma

    so yes thats just under 300 lumens for 3leds

    but not if you drive them at 1000ma (which is safe)
    then you get over 200lumens per led or over 600 lumens for 3 leds

    also remember Incan / Arc type technology has been around for years
    it cant really get improved - everything has been tried

    led is reletivly young technology (white leds) and already it is level with the best

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts
    I'm not anti-LED, but, like Flyer, ....until a commercially available led bike light becomes available, in a comparable or smaller package as HID, with as much light output, at an equivalent price, there's no reason for me to switch.

    Everyone talks about how much more robust LED is, but I've never broken an HID lamp. I expect the useful life will be around 4-5 years, by which time I'd want a new system anyway. The only advantage LED holds for me right now is the dimming capability. Other than that, I get more light at a much lower price....with a superb light pattern than any currently available LED system.

    edit: Could you list the reliability specs for the bin 5 LED at 1A. I'm curious what the life is. I can't find anything about bin 5 on the Cree site. Thanks
    While my above post was directed at you, I did not mean to single you out as anti -LED. You are absolutely correct that right no there is no commercially available system that can compare on a lumen/dollar ratio with the HID systems. That is why I told the original poster to wait 6 to 12 months. I guess the closest would be the new Niterider Trinewt, which I believe still uses the Luxeon K2 LEDs. It claims about 500 lumens, and sells for about $350. LEDs are improving at a dramatic rate right now, so it is understandable that manufacturers are a little slow to release new products that are almost obsolete when they hit the market.

    I also agree with aljsk8 that the LED lights should be no more expensive than the HIDs.
    Three of the best new LEDs with optics are still cheaper than an HID bulb, and the drive electronics will be cheaper as well compared to the HIDs regulated high voltage ballast. But I guess because they are very new to the market, manufacturers are marking them up to get a quicker return for the design dollars.

    My prediction is this: within one year you will see at least a few LED lights that use the newer Soeul and Cree LEDs that will be even on a lumen/dollar ratio with the best HIDs. Within 2 years you will be able to buy off the shelf systems that cost less than an HID and give you more light and longer run times.

    PS: Concerning the LEDs lifespan at 1 Amp, I have also not seen any specific data. The spec sheet claims 70% lumen maintanence at 50,000 hours, but does specify at what drive current. But for comparison, the HID bulb claims 70% lumen maintanence at only1000 hours!

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    I hope that reasonably priced LED units are available soon.

    I'm somewhat skeptical about the price on them dropping very quickly. The top light manufacturers will not want to lose their core HID businesses by pricing themselves out... so either LED's will be high priced, or HID will see a significant drop.

    Prices on top notch systems will probalby remain high for a very long time simply due to low volume. There are only so many people that need such bright bicycle lights.

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    The brighter the LEDs get, the smaller the housing will get due to not needing as many LEDs to provide a really good amount of light. I'm also waiting for commercially available LEDs to get brighter and cheaper and no, I don't particularly want seven or eight LEDs on my head unit.

    So I'll dink around with a DIY when I have time (just to have a redundant system for long rides and to see how much fun it is) but the HID is perfectly suitable for me and I can handle the 700-800 hour bulb life without any complaints.

    In a year or two, I see LEDs becoming brighter and more reasonably priced. And no, $1K plus is not reasonable unless the thing works underwater, runs 30 hours at full brightness, 300 at the dim setting, works as a Defibrillator, and sends out SOS signals to the Coast Guard while playing MP3s and projecting movies as a Hologram.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeny
    Concerning the LED’s lifespan at 1 Amp, I have also not seen any specific data. The spec sheet claims 70% lumen maintenance at 50,000 hours, but does specify at what drive current.
    This is very general, but most manufacturers produce lumen maintenance numbers based on die junction temperature, rather than drive current.


    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Shorts
    Could you list the reliability specs for the Q5 LED at 1A. I'm curious what the life is. I can't find anything about Q5 on the Cree site.
    Check out the datasheets on the Cree Website here, the “XLamp Reliability” and “XLampThermal Management” documents should provide you with the information you require.



    The LED vs. HID debate has been run and won in terms of lumen / watt, but the dollar / lumen discussion is an interesting one. Personally I think there are a number of very important reasons for the higher prices. Firstly, light manufacturers are doing everything they can to market their new LED based lights as being brighter, lighter, easier to control and longer running then HID. I think in any industry it is pretty standard practise to price a superior product substantially higher then its predecessor.

    Design also plays an important part. You have minimal elements in a HID based light with a simple Housing / Blub / Ballast arrangement. Keep the ballast reasonably cool and add some simple control circuity, maybe a fuel gauge and possibly some battery protection if you’re lucky. Come up with some fancy lingo to market the light (or confuse the customer) and you’re done. (I know this is a crude description, bear with me)

    With LED based lights there are a number of huge design issues to deal with when designing a light. Thermal management, lumen maintenance, physical mounting of the emitters and optical control are all in depth and time consuming issues that need to be seriously addressed to create a light that’s going to last any length of time, and in some manufacturers cases, be upgradeable when future technology comes along. Then all the trimmings are added, the light prettied up, and you come up with some fancy lingo to market the light (or confuse the customer) and you’re done.

    Finally, the tooling required to produce the MCPCB’s or place the emitters in and construct these lights is extremely expensive, especially for such small companies producing small production runs of a product such as a bike light. Larger companies who produce extraordinary volumes of products can easily afford a redesign and retooling for the latest and greatest emitters. Small companies like bike light manufacturers just simply can’t afford it, and need to design and market a product that will last at least a season or two.

    I have noticed a lot of people commenting that the price of LED’s will come down, and the light output and efficiency will improve with time. It is certainly true that we will still see some huge gains in LED technology, and sooner then you may think. However I don’t believe LED price has much to do with the price of bike lights. In reasonable volume even the latest and greatest current emitters are phenomenally cheap.

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    I've got the same basic questions as LocoMan. Right now I'm looking at the L&M Arc at $350, the NiteRider TriNewt at $399, or the CygoLight TridenX at $350 all from Performance where I have some points to spend. Do either of these LED lights match up to the Arc? The Arc is tried and tested so I can't see spending much more than that for the amount of night riding I do. Can you get any LED under $400 that's going to be as bright as the Arc without DIY?

  33. #33
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    You can get the ARC for a bit less than $350. No, none of those will be as bright and will have nowhere near the beam pattern. The lens is the key for the spillover effect. Of the LEDs I know of and light patterns I have seen, only the Lupine Wilma ($600 plus) will be as bright but still doesn't have the spillover of almost 180 degrees. The advantage of LEDs is the Solid State design, ensuring durability. I take that back- the Dinotte 500L or 600L may also have a good beam pattern with no hot, bright, center. Check that one out as well. It will be around $450 or so though.

    So at $350 or less, nothing comes close to the ARC, in my opinion. The Jet Lites 20 or 25 watt Halogen is a fantastic light as well. Brightness is one measure off a light's effectiveness but for me, beam pattern and spillover illumintion is as important.

    Value and beam pattern- ARC rules them all and starts at $300ish. L&M is working on a bright LED as well for next year. I am looking forward to that because their beam pattern is simply the best.

    LED- Lupine Wilma and Dinotte 600L are probably the best known on mtbr. They are durable and the Lupine is very expensive but LEDs are the future. In a couple of years, they will be brighter and cheaper- and lighter.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
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    TriNewt Beamshots

    Beamshots have now been posted by James, over at LacticAcidThreshold.

    Check 'em out, if you're curious. It looks promising to me. He's got a direct comparison between the 600L and the TriNewt.

    http://acidinmylegs.blogspot.com/200...eam-shots.html

  35. #35
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    The TriNewt has a beam pattern I like. I have not liked the quality and construction of NiteRider products in general but this beam pattern from their LED light is very good. I will give them credit for that. The spot is also not as intense and reflective as the 600L. That is also an advantage and similar to a car headlight with an even spray of light with a slightly brighter center.

    Good job with the lens, NiteRider!

  36. #36
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    LEDs have taken a huge step up just this year. The new Cree and Luxeon emitters are amazing. DiNotte says that any lighting system made before this year is obsolete: they're wrong for HID, but right for LEDs.

    I have a little 2xAA tactical flashlight based on the latest and highest output Luxeon. It pumps out 170 lumens and costs about $60. I haven't had a chance to test it on singletrack, but tests on my road bike are very encouraging.

  37. #37
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    Your flashlight wil be fine for a roadbike; not a real trail. However, you can put one on each shoulder and another on your helmet for adequate lighting

  38. #38
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    I look forward to seeing beam shots of the Dinotte 600L in the wider beam. They are supposed to get one shortly and do another comparison on that site with the Trinewt and the wide beam 600L. That will be interesting to see. I would think the Dinotte with a wider beam would be more enticing than the Trinewt.

  39. #39
    Don't be a sheep
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusHQ
    I look forward to seeing beam shots of the Dinotte 600L in the wider beam. They are supposed to get one shortly and do another comparison on that site with the Trinewt and the wide beam 600L. That will be interesting to see. I would think the Dinotte with a wider beam would be more enticing than the Trinewt.

    Doesn't it look like the Dinotte was pointed into the ground? It seems to me if it was aimed further out it would have even farther reach without the harsh spot and much better fill.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  40. #40
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    Yes that's right, the Dinotte looks like it would kill the Niterider as far as the distance it can throw the beam if it wasn't pointed right into the ground. The Dinotte Looks like it would make a nice beam for a helmet mount. Not bad beam width, but a lot of distance. Looks somewhat similar to my 830 lumen Wilma 6 beam pattern actually, but not quite. The beam seems a bit more narrow and probably less throw. The niterider seems like it lacks distance, but some people are really looking for this type of wide beam and not so much worried about distance it projects. I'm not saying the Niterider has no distance, it does, just not anything to write home about. Still, I would trade my Niterider Hid for a Trinewt without pause.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    Doesn't it look like the Dinotte was pointed into the ground? It seems to me if it was aimed further out it would have even farther reach without the harsh spot and much better fill.
    I try and adjust the lights the same as I would if I were riding with them -- trying to maximize far field throw and near field fill.

  42. #42
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    I hardly ever buy a new computer. When it seems worthwhile to upgrade, I buy as few parts as possible and integrate them. It seems to work, and saves a lot of money.

    I'm going to do the same thing with bike lighting: build a variation on Achesalot's design, and then, as technology improves, replace only the parts that make a significant difference. Since obnoxiousness is conserved, keeping it in top form should be a doddle.

    That's what I'd suggest, too, to anyone shifting from foot to foot trying to decide what to do: build one, don't buy one. Store-bought ones are expensive and generally have to be replaced with other expensive store-bought ones since they're not made by hand and the obnoxiousness cost of converting them is higher than if you just built an equivalent device from parts to begin with.

    That's my take on it, anyway.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katzenjammer
    I hardly ever buy a new computer. When it seems worthwhile to upgrade, I buy as few parts as possible and integrate them. It seems to work, and saves a lot of money.

    I'm going to do the same thing with bike lighting: build a variation on Achesalot's design, and then, as technology improves, replace only the parts that make a significant difference. Since obnoxiousness is conserved, keeping it in top form should be a doddle.

    That's what I'd suggest, too, to anyone shifting from foot to foot trying to decide what to do: build one, don't buy one. Store-bought ones are expensive and generally have to be replaced with other expensive store-bought ones since they're not made by hand and the obnoxiousness cost of converting them is higher than if you just built an equivalent device from parts to begin with.

    That's my take on it, anyway.
    Home builts are great but if your racing and you need reliability your better of going with a proven design. It's the main reason I purchased a complete product. It might rain at the 24hr race I'm doing this weekend and there isn't one homebuilt LED I've seen on this sight that I'd trust in a rainstorm. Also, I think you need to look up obnoxiousness, It doesn't mean what I think you think it means?
    "Do not touch the trim"

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet
    Home builts are great but if your racing and you need reliability your better of going with a proven design. It's the main reason I purchased a complete product. It might rain at the 24hr race I'm doing this weekend and there isn't one homebuilt LED I've seen on this sight that I'd trust in a rainstorm.
    I suppose my main point was that what we build, we understand, and what we understand we can use appropriately. I'm sure that you, too, can recall --or could find described here, for that matter-- many instances of commercial products not performing as advertised.

    Also, I think you need to look up obnoxiousness, It doesn't mean what I think you think it means?
    You might be right that I don't know what "obnoxiousness" means, and I congratulate you if your use of hand-tools is flawless, such that anything you undertake proceeds smoothly and without error to a successful end. But my projects (and from whatever I've seen, most other people's) are always fraught with nicks and cuts, burnt and/or mashed fingers, small parts falling into inaccessible places, tools slipping, and so forth -- a sort of cacopractic reminder that entropic forces haven't gone out of business. All those little errors, and their inevitability, seem like a good example of "obnoxiousness" to me, since I have a cultural bias toward humorous hyperbole. What word would you choose?

    (I'm sure you meant "site", not "sight" in your third sentence )

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer
    Your flashlight wil be fine for a roadbike; not a real trail. However, you can put one on each shoulder and another on your helmet for adequate lighting
    According to the specs, it's more light than a Sol or even a MiNewt X2 -- which aren't full trail lighting for night rides, but will certainly get you home with no problems when you stay out too late -- and nearly as much as a Dinotte 200L. I hope to test this next time I meet people with lighting systems.

    Beam pattern is a moderately tight spot with a dim but totally even wide-angle spill.

  46. #46
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    I think I'm going to try and pick up a TriNewt or the Dinotte 600L. I've been checking all the links and reviews and it looks like LED lights are almost at HID levels in lumens/price ratio plus they have the advantage on run time, flexible modes, and durability. One thing that bothers me a little are all the warnings I've seen about the fragility of HID bulbs and I'm probably looking at a light to last for 5 years. Coming from a Cygolite Night Rover I don't think I'll be disappointed no matter what I get.

  47. #47
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    As a hardcore nightrider, Iīve decided to go for the Wilma 6 (thanks Geoman ;-) ). LED is here and now, and at 830 dimmable lumens / 4 hr burntime at max, itīs unbeatable (perhaps by the new Betty but thatīs another topic). Sure, itīs not cheap, but itīs very, very well built. And itīs upgradable. Eventually itīll reach 1000 lumen demanding only a simple change of the LEDs. All things considered, that pays for itself, and the satisfaction is unquestionable.

    I already own (and love) the L&M ARC Li-ion, and I can attest: itīs an amazing lightset. Itīs powerful, solid, reliable and lightweight, compact. And yes, the beam pattern is excellent. Top light. I considered selling it when I get the Wilma but I`ve decided to keep it and use on occasion - the ARC on the hbar and the Wilma on the helmet, or both on the hbar.

    I do a lot of long (up to 5 hours) explores in dark trails, many times by myself, so reliability and lumens count most to me. I trust the ARC a lot, but HIDs arenīt nearly as realiable and confidence-inspiring as LEDs, at least in my opinion.

    As for pricing, when it comes to high-end and luxury stuff itīs beyond justification or objective reasoning. Lupines belong to this realm, a niche where purchase decisions arenīt guided by mere necessity or function, and simple math or plain economics doesnīt apply. Iīve had problems with lower quality HIDs before, so I guess you get what you pay for. Iīm now paying to get the best.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex SP
    As a hardcore nightrider, Iīve decided to go for the Wilma 6 (thanks Geoman ;-) ). LED is here and now, and at 830 dimmable lumens / 4 hr burntime at max, itīs unbeatable (perhaps by the new Betty but thatīs another topic). Sure, itīs not cheap, but itīs very, very well built. And itīs upgradable. Eventually itīll reach 1000 lumen demanding only a simple change of the LEDs. All things considered, that pays for itself, and the satisfaction is unquestionable.

    I already own (and love) the L&M ARC Li-ion, and I can attest: itīs an amazing lightset. Itīs powerful, solid, reliable and lightweight, compact. And yes, the beam pattern is excellent. Top light. I considered selling it when I get the Wilma but I`ve decided to keep it and use on occasion - the ARC on the hbar and the Wilma on the helmet, or both on the hbar.

    I do a lot of long (up to 5 hours) explores in dark trails, many times by myself, so reliability and lumens count most to me. I trust the ARC a lot, but HIDs arenīt nearly as realiable and confidence-inspiring as LEDs, at least in my opinion.

    As for pricing, when it comes to high-end and luxury stuff itīs beyond justification or objective reasoning. Lupines belong to this realm, a niche where purchase decisions arenīt guided by mere necessity or function, and simple math or plain economics doesnīt apply. Iīve had problems with lower quality HIDs before, so I guess you get what you pay for. Iīm now paying to get the best.
    We have had zero buyer's remorse on the Lupines and only hear rave reviews from customers. They are of the highest quality, fit, and finish. Yes, they are expensive but once you factor in that there's absolutely nothing else to buy (car charger, case, etc.), they are only moderately more expensive than the cheaper varieties.

    Thank you, Alex!
    GeoMan
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