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  1. #1
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    New question here. which MCE optics will win

    Which optic is going to be the killer that every one will want

    and which optic maker is going to nail the issues so a 5 degree spot is just that
    not a 12 degree 4 leaf clover .

    and a 10 degree medium is not a 20 degree flood

  2. #2
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    I'm betting on the Ledil EVA and LM1...
    @pinkrobeyyc
    #pinkrobeyyc

  3. #3
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    Ah, that's the $6.40 question. Based upon no evidence whatsoever, I'm guessing the current crop of 26mm optics won't cut the mustard, due to the spacing of MC-E's 4 dice. So I'm keen to see how Ledil's EVA performs.
    Brisbane, AU

  4. #4
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    I have a ledil LM1 and will eventually post beam shots when I finish the light. I went with the soothe spot. Its a very nice clean beam but not all that spotty. I am a little worried its not going to be that great on my helmet. Guess I have to finish the light to find out. One thing about the LM1 that's really disappointing is that the lens is new for the MC-E but the holder is for the XP-E and snaps on to the XP-E, it dosnt snap onto my MC-E and just sits there and will have to be glued. I am still holding out hope for the boomerang reflector and kind of wishing I had gone that route. Of course with out really nice glass all the extra efficiency is killed by the window that covers the front.

  5. #5
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    Yeah, I'm holding a huge hope for the Boomerang reflectors, but 10 degrees is the tightest they come in, so I'm not sure how well that will work out. Then again, not too much more spread out than my 6 degree spot... and with a lot more punch and power I would hope.

  6. #6
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    Just finished up trying a couple of ledil mc-e optics. I ordered the CMC-D and the CMC-M. My dual Q5 light head uses the XR-E equivalent CMC-D but on the MC-E the spread is noticeably wider. Almost like the XR-E Ledil -M optic. I think I need the smooth spot to compliment the -D optic. The beam is wider than I prefer. However, I was very impressed with the uniformity. Nice smooth wall of light.

    I setup a dual MC-E (K BIN) and ran it off a 16 volt battery and a 3023-1000 Buck. On each chip the leds were in series but each chip in parallel to one another so I was only driving around .45amps into each led. I estimate a little over 800 Lumens. Quite a bit more light than the dual Q5 setup. Interesting, I can feel more heat on my hand when I place it in the beam path than on the dual Q5 light.

    Dual MC-E > 2(14v x .45A) = 12.6 watts
    Dual Q5 > 2(3.5v x .9A) = 6.3 watts

    Gonna be a challenge to dissipate all that heat..

    I'll try to get a pic soon. I haven't put the thing in one of my cases but I was impressed enough to order more leds (m bin). This time on a series configured star.


    Bob

  7. #7
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    Don't have optics yet, but was playing with my MC-E. I mounted it to a series-wired star and temporarily fixed it to a 5lb cast weight (super sized heat sink) with some thermal paste. The only other bare emitter I have is a Cree P4 (I think), so I set it up the same way (its nice to have a dual channel power supply).

    Running at 500mA, the MC-E is BLINDING!! I still have spots floating in my eyes! It made the P4 look old and dim.

    Can't wait to get some optics to try. This thing ROCKS!

  8. #8
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    That's good to know
    Brisbane, AU

  9. #9
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    Also, (and I mentioned this somewhere else) the Vf is closer to 12.5V when all four dice are wired in series...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnlwthrn
    Also, (and I mentioned this somewhere else) the Vf is closer to 12.5V when all four dice are wired in series...
    Mr Trout mentioned this from his optic testing rig also. Very useful information for people like me who only have 14.8v packs!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocean breathes salty
    Mr Trout mentioned this from his optic testing rig also. Very useful information for people like me who only have 14.8v packs!
    Yes the Vf is lower on the newer LEDs. Im measuring around 3.3v at 1A on new R2s.

    Anyone notice the promising MCE optics are getting about as big as the MR11???

  12. #12
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    I really don't have a problem with that. Right now I've got a triple Q5 setup that is MR11 sized. It actually would be kind of nice to have the single MC-E fit in the same housing, as I wouldn't have to design a new one. Downside is the bulk for a single emitter... But with Trout's idea of the housing that wraps around the bar, we could make the whole housing smaller dia, and flare the end to fit the optic.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Yes the Vf is lower on the newer LEDs. Im measuring around 3.3v at 1A on new R2s.

    Anyone notice the promising MCE optics are getting about as big as the MR11???
    Yes the lower VF`s is good news .

    The wow factor is not there with the mce with the messing about I have done .
    and the small is beautifull has not happened yet also .

    I went out for a ride yesterday in the dark with the triple K bin stem light / the single M bin mini trout light and a quad R2 helmet light .

    I was disapointed with the beams from the MCE`s
    but happy with the quantity of light .

    but the quad cutter optic which I believe to be a ledil cute was the better beam .


    The jury is still out

    one think that stood out was the single M bin MCE could make a difference in the beam from the 3 Kbin MCE and they were all on the same optic

  14. #14
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    Ledil LM1 optic

    Finishing up the last details on my MC-E helmet light right now. Running at 400ma, I think I need to turn it down a bit, getting very hot. Of course this is just still air testing. Tons of light out of this thing and what a nice color. I also report a low VF.
    The ledil LM1 optic
    Where to start.......
    The holder I recieved is clearly meant for the XR-E.
    It fits perfectly around the XR-E and actually snaps into place. WIth my MC-E it just sort of sits there and provides no real help in centering the optic. Maybe thats my problem, maybe the optic is just not centered. Also the opening in the bottom of the optic is not large enough to fir totally over the MC-E dome.
    The beam is not nice at all.
    Not very tight, looks to be way more than the +-10 advertised.
    It has a donut in the center and I cant eat it. Pure rubbish. The donut is noticable and the spill is a flower pattern. Quite dissapointing. I better keep looking for a better optic or place some orders for reflectors. As a helmet light this is not going to cut it I am affraid.
    I will be trying the secondary optic made by cree for the XR-E next. Hopefully it wont suck.

  15. #15
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    That is disapointing news is that another optic to cross of the wish list .

    will we get any pics of the build and beam anytime .

  16. #16
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    Well after a lot of swearing at it I pried the optic holder up and re-glued it and the donut hole seems to have gone away but all the other complaints still stand. I hope other MC-E optic holders are better and actually center the thing, an optic holder that dosnt self center is about as useful as a non alcaholic beer...
    I turned down the drive current to 300ma since this thing is dinotte sized and got real hot in still air testing. Going out tonite for a little ride tonite and will report back on how it does. Photos coming eventually, but this is one for the ugly thread for sure.

    Jay

  17. #17
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    I also building an MCE helmet light and I have to say the optic issue is killing everyone.
    I'm putting my build on hold for a while until either the Boomerang reflectors or some other good optic hits the market. I tried some reflectors I have and they're all terrible, with the dreaded donut. I'm not an optic expert so I'm scratching a hole in my head.
    I did get an email from Cutter and they are processing my Carclo 20mm optic order finally, maybe that will solve this issue...
    I just don't know if the optics will be tight enough, I ordered the frosted narrow(18') and medium(24') as well as an oval beam, I'll keep you guys posted.

    Eric S

  18. #18
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    I'm building yet another Dinotte-style MC-E helmet-light. Was poised to 'pull the trigger' and order a couple of different Carclo 26.5mm optics to try out, but after reading Bikerjay's tail of woe I'm hesitating now. Ah, what the heck, somebody has to be an early adopter I guess.
    Brisbane, AU

  19. #19
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    The Carclo 26.5 tight was not bad in my testing

    but the best one so far imho is a modded ledil xre Rocket SS
    Which is going in to a mates light at the moment .





    sadly I forgot to take a photo of before mod and after and it is now glued in the light .

  20. #20
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    What sort of modding did you do, it has an odd looking base, did you just open up the base a little so it fits over the mc-e. Or did you have to sand down the base or cut it totally off. I would think the base would get in the way of all the wires necessary for a series wired mc-e.
    Also is the thing really 26mm in diameter. Maybe I will have to make a better housing eventually with a 26mm Inner diameter unless it could be some how made to fit my 22.2mm inner diameter housing. That ledil rocket SS lens sure does look nice.

  21. #21
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    Bikerjay

    should have taken pics but didnt really expect it to be any good

    first off I dremeled the wings off so it would clear the solder pads and spaggetti of the series wired star .

    that is when I took the first beam shot .

    then while I was inspecting it under a magnifier I saw that about 1 mm of mce dome was visibly from the side . so then sanded the base flat so the dome was totally inside the optic .
    the end result is total removal of the base to leave a standard shaped optic
    which sits over the dome of the mce nicely but then needs to be fixed in the housing
    mine will have a clear disk glued in front to hold it all together .

    beamshot in the next couple of days of the finished light

    Yes it is 26 mm

  22. #22
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    Just tried the Polymer Optic 185 and it is a nice smooth beam with no clover. It is a wide pattern although I am very happy with it overall and will probably go this direction. Not happy with the Fraen narrow optic or reflector as they both have rings, although the reflector seems to have more throw. It is kind of hard to tell though with that much light right in front of you how the throw really is for me at least.

  23. #23
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    P S A For All Those Waiting For Optics

    For all you out there waiting for orders for optics or optics and leds then the agony may be over soon

    I just had a reply from Mark at Cutters Who sends his apologies for the waiting to all of you out there .

    Hi Chris

    Verbatim, my last email from Ledil on Monday the 3rd



    ''LM1 and BOOM are ready.

    Also LC1 with tape, LXP with tape and CXP with tape.

    I have samples of EVA and if they are OK (will measure on Tuesday), we can start molding them as well.

    In addition we have TINA-XP ready

    TWIDDLE-XRE will be ready in 2 weeks.

    The same for CMC.''

    I had expected this to all be done a month ago, so my apologies but outside our control

    Cheers

    Mark


  24. #24
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    Thanks for the update. I'm waiting on two Ledil Boom reflectors and two MC-E from cutter. Will post results as soon as I get them in my hands and get thinks up and running.

  25. #25
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    I am really starting to wonder if the LM1 i received is actually an LC1. They look to be nearly identical. Maybe there is hope for the LM1 after all.

    Cant wait too see the boomerang, it should fit in my housing and if they look nice Ill have to get a hold of one.

    The CMC is what we are all waiting for I think. It would be great to see a aches alot tripple with 3 MCE running at 300ma. Could easily be a 1000lumen monster. Should be way brighter and more efficient than 3 R2 at 1A. Maybe even better than 4 R2 at 700ma.

  26. #26
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    what about an MR16 triple @ 600ma

    As I have 3 mce and no proper optics I was messing about today
    and found this in the parts bin so why not give it a try .

    most likley be a flood monster as it is a wide optic.




    now I have to wait for the darkness to find out .

  27. #27
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    kahtod cree medium...

    troutie, I was playing w/ that exact optic on an mc-e. I think it's a 25 deg optic. It produces a nice wide beam w/ no artifacts I could see. I prefer a more narrow beam, so I tried the kahtod triple narrow (8 deg I think)...but the beam wasn't so good. I only had 1 mc-e at the time...so maybe w/ 3 on it would be better.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    For all you out there waiting for orders for optics or optics and leds then the agony may be over soon

    I just had a reply from Mark at Cutters Who sends his apologies for the waiting to all of you out there .

    Hi Chris

    Verbatim, my last email from Ledil on Monday the 3rd



    ''LM1 and BOOM are ready.

    ...

    I have samples of EVA and if they are OK (will measure on Tuesday), we can start molding them as well.

    That's great news. Perhaps I can build my light over the x-mas break [between trips to the pub, of course].
    @pinkrobeyyc
    #pinkrobeyyc

  29. #29
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    I'm confused:

    "The same for CMC"



    Then what has Cutter been shipping? I ordered CMC Ledil optics and recieved them last week. Thought they look too similiar to the XR-E optics... And I wasn't too thrilled with their performance.

    First I get the wrong LED bins and now what I suspected about the optics is probably true. My trust in Cutter to ship what he says is beginning to diminish.

    I think I'll go build some R2 lights and wait till the MC-E dust settles.




    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    For all you out there waiting for orders for optics or optics and leds then the agony may be over soon

    I just had a reply from Mark at Cutters Who sends his apologies for the waiting to all of you out there .

    Hi Chris

    Verbatim, my last email from Ledil on Monday the 3rd



    ''LM1 and BOOM are ready.

    Also LC1 with tape, LXP with tape and CXP with tape.

    I have samples of EVA and if they are OK (will measure on Tuesday), we can start molding them as well.

    In addition we have TINA-XP ready

    TWIDDLE-XRE will be ready in 2 weeks.

    The same for CMC.''

    I had expected this to all be done a month ago, so my apologies but outside our control

    Cheers

    Mark


  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjay
    I am really starting to wonder if the LM1 i received is actually an LC1. They look to be nearly identical. Maybe there is hope for the LM1 after all.

    Cant wait too see the boomerang, it should fit in my housing and if they look nice Ill have to get a hold of one.

    The CMC is what we are all waiting for I think. It would be great to see a aches alot tripple with 3 MCE running at 300ma. Could easily be a 1000lumen monster. Should be way brighter and more efficient than 3 R2 at 1A. Maybe even better than 4 R2 at 700ma.

    bikerjay
    the LC1 will definatly not even go over the dome on a MCE

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by il2mb
    I'm confused:

    "The same for CMC"



    Then what has Cutter been shipping? I ordered CMC Ledil optics and recieved them last week. Thought they look too similiar to the XR-E optics... And I wasn't too thrilled with their performance.

    First I get the wrong LED bins and now what I suspected about the optics is probably true. My trust in Cutter to ship what he says is beginning to diminish.

    I think I'll go build some R2 lights and wait till the MC-E dust settles.

    You probable have some pre production ones
    but if you have RS or SS then post some beam shots if you can as I have beamshots
    from the xre versions with an mce to compare with.

  32. #32
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    I've only got some Carclo 26,5mm lenses, and I think they look good.

    Tried them vs an old 3 x Cree (not sure which bin, but not the newest ones..) with Ledil CRS lenses (1 x 9 deg and 2 x 15 deg I think):

    3 x XR-E @1000mA


    Cree MC-E @ 1000mA w/18 deg Carclo 26,5mm lens:


    Really looking forward to trying the Boom reflectors. Hoping they will give a Tesla-ish beam pattern!

    Needless to say - @1A the alu-pipe mounted to the MC-E got VERY hot.

  33. #33
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    About my LM1 I received a while ago.
    The holder is for the XR-E I think, since it just sits on top of my mce and does not center the thing or snap onto the outside of the emitter. When I put the holder on to a XR-E it snaps to the out side of it and centers it self quite well. However the data sheets show photos and list measurements that look identical so maybe they are the same. Also If i take just the optic and place it over my MC-E the thing does not fit over the dome. On the the other hand the photos on the Ledil website show that the optic for the LM1 is faceted not frosted where is the LC1 is frosted. Based on this and the dimensions on the data sheet being the same I think I did get the LM1 and its just a pre-production or pre release and the will soon be released in greater numbers. It would be nice if the optic holder centered it self. I am starting to think Ledil is just selling warmed over XR-E optics and a few happen to work well.

  34. #34
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    Darkness came and with it the rain but in true light builders spirit I did not let a little rain get in the way of a beamshot .

    this is the triple MR16 wide optic with 3 MCE @ 600ma

    HI / LO




    And for a comparison now it is built in to a light and also because I like it
    The modded ledil rocket ss



    Quite impressive and a huge ammount of light from the triple but there is a down side
    the heat build upin the block of ali was quite fast so would present a challenge for a light housing MR16 sized .


    I would like to try the narrower options for this optic as a Betty beater

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by il2mb
    I'm confused:

    "The same for CMC"



    Then what has Cutter been shipping? I ordered CMC Ledil optics and recieved them last week. Thought they look too similiar to the XR-E optics... And I wasn't too thrilled with their performance.

    First I get the wrong LED bins and now what I suspected about the optics is probably true. My trust in Cutter to ship what he says is beginning to diminish.

    I think I'll go build some R2 lights and wait till the MC-E dust settles.
    I recall I had some pre production samples but had not tested them myself, if they are not good, shoot them back to us and I will replace with the production models when available. We are provided with lots of optics in pre production form and typically get rev2 in production, so my apologies
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeLight
    I recall I had some pre production samples but had not tested them myself, if they are not good, shoot them back to us and I will replace with the production models when available. We are provided with lots of optics in pre production form and typically get rev2 in production, so my apologies
    Since you seemingly have time to post online in forums. How bout someone over there replying to my emails about where my order is?

    1. I dunno how it works in Aus, but you're not supposed to charge someone until you ship over here. I don't mind it a big deal if I know my stuff is going to arrive sometime soon, but I have no idea what is going on with my order with you guys. You have not responded to any of my emails, I can't track my order on your site and there has been a total lack of communication on your part.

    I'm extremely disappointed ordering from you, and so far I see no reason you've earned the recommendations of so many people online. As the cheap Chinese sites DX and Kai have both responded to my questions in a timely manner, and both have managed to ship complete orders to me already (with free shipping to boot!)

    So who do we have to contact over there to get a response?
    www.mtbiker.ca

    My Rides:
    FSR XC -R7 Platinum - SRAM X7 (26.5lbs)
    Cervelo SLC - SRAM Rival - Reynolds DV46T (16.25 lbs)

  37. #37
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    WOW Troutie!
    What battery are you running for that monster and what driver and settings?
    Do you think those beamshots represent what you were actually seeing or are they overexposed?

    Eric S

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebreez
    WOW Troutie!
    What battery are you running for that monster and what driver and settings?
    Do you think those beamshots represent what you were actually seeing or are they overexposed?

    Eric S

    I am not sure on the overexposed but when I did some beamshots a while ago
    it was suggested to use the MTBR standard settings for a camera

    which are F4 @ 6 seconds iso 100 -white balance -daylight

    so to keep it a level playing field these are the settings I use for all beamshots .

    The monster is 3 MCE K bin wired 6series 2 parallel
    maxflex @ 1200ma
    14.8 v li ion

    set up on that block of ali as a test bed

  39. #39
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    Mark?

    Quote Originally Posted by WeLight
    I recall I had some pre production samples but had not tested them myself, if they are not good, shoot them back to us and I will replace with the production models when available. We are provided with lots of optics in pre production form and typically get rev2 in production, so my apologies

    Not worth the shipping charge to send them back. I just hope the new order I placed on 10/28 gets processed correctly. I also can't seem to get a reply to my emails. The order is 5955.

    Couple of M bin, WH tint MC-E leds mounted on a series pre-configured star and CMC optics. I'd really like this order to arrive with the right stuff.


    Bob

  40. #40
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    Hi Troutie,

    Wow, how did the triple MCE go? That looks a monster...

    I initially did not think the MCE's were much to write home about (I have a triple R2, Troutie housing which does very nicely, thankyou), but after doing some calcs on the M bins, they look very tasty. A triple MCE in a MR16 housing would run very well in theory, particularly at up to 13W. The 50mm housing should provide better cooling than my triple R2 (?) and might run ok up to 13W with a reasonable winter's breeze.

    Numbers from the cree data sheets, interpolated by eye from the graphs (come pretty close as cree claim 9.8W for 790lm and 0.7A). Run time based on a 71Whr battery I'm looking at. Mmmm. nice....

    Cheers
    Peter

    PS: I'm looking at building a new light set for my 46 mile round trip commute(!)

    Code:
    Vf	mA	W	W (x4)	% lm	lm	lm/W	x3 (W)	lm	Run time
    3.20	0.35	1.12	4.48	1.00	456.00	101.79	13.44	1368.00	5.28
    3.10	0.20	0.62	2.48	0.60	273.60	110.32	7.44	820.80	9.54
    3.30	0.50	1.65	6.60	1.35	615.60	93.27	19.80	1846.80	3.59
    3.50	0.70	2.45	9.80	1.73	788.88	80.50	29.40	2366.64	2.41
    (A 20W set fire to the tarmac temp boost button might also be called for!)

  41. #41
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    Scrap that - just found your other thread...looks awesome...I will follow with interest.

    Peter

    http://forums.mtbr.com/lights-diy-do-yourself/cree-mc-e-light-but-need-little-help-427669.html#post4615750

  42. #42
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    I'm not sure if this has already been posted, but Ledil has updated their data sheets for the EVA and LM-1. No detailed diagrams, but they do have beam patterns for the EVA.
    http://www.ledil.com/datasheets/DataSheet_Eva.pdf
    http://www.ledil.com/datasheets/DataSheet_LM1.pdf
    @pinkrobeyyc
    #pinkrobeyyc

  43. #43
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    Thanks for that Pinkrobe last time I looked there were no beam pics

    so they do exist then I hope they have made the trip to cutters then round to me in the UK .

    I wonder how far they will have traveled when I get mine .

    Lets hope they live up to expectations .

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_JS
    Hi Troutie,

    Wow, how did the triple MCE go? That looks a monster...

    I initially did not think the MCE's were much to write home about (I have a triple R2, Troutie housing which does very nicely, thankyou), but after doing some calcs on the M bins, they look very tasty. A triple MCE in a MR16 housing would run very well in theory, particularly at up to 13W. The 50mm housing should provide better cooling than my triple R2 (?) and might run ok up to 13W with a reasonable winter's breeze.

    Numbers from the cree data sheets, interpolated by eye from the graphs (come pretty close as cree claim 9.8W for 790lm and 0.7A). Run time based on a 71Whr battery I'm looking at. Mmmm. nice....

    Cheers
    Peter

    PS: I'm looking at building a new light set for my 46 mile round trip commute!)

    Hi Peter
    You must have one of the first Troutie housings .


    That is a fair old commute . have you looked into a dynohub setup , seems to be the way to go for commuting
    the triple MCE may be a tad bright for the tarmac.

    Cheers Trout

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Hi Peter
    You must have one of the first Troutie housings .


    That is a fair old commute . have you looked into a dynohub setup , seems to be the way to go for commuting
    the triple MCE may be a tad bright for the tarmac.

    Cheers Trout
    Hi Troutie,

    Yep, commute takes me between 1hr26 to 1hr 28 each way, its amazing how when you think you're cycling much harder so little difference is made to the cycle time. I'm using my full suss MTB (!!!) with 110psi road slicks, which make an enormous difference, although tis pretty bumpy/slippery on a rough gravel section I use. I'm eyeing up a proper road bike which will allow me to run my MTB for what its designed for this winter.

    High Lumens for the road are a definite must IMO, particulary on dark country lanes, with puddles and on coming cars when you doing >= 20mph. I looked at the dynohub, it's a good idea, but I reckon I'd still rather carry a LION battery and run 10W-15W worth of LEDs. Maybe a cutter R2 quad would be fine, but I also like the idea of oval optics and MCE's too....so I'm watching your current progress with great interest!

    Here's a link to my current trout light build (which is still running well), so it may well be a early ver of yours.

    Yet another Cutter R2 Triple triple DIY light...

    Cheers
    Peter

  46. #46
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    In true Troutie impatience style I could not wait for the narrow triple optic to come from Cutters .
    so I thought why not see if I can lathe the difusing bobbles off the front of the medium optic
    it was a bit delicate to nip in the chuck but I managed and was quite suprised on how good it came out .
    after a few very light passes they were gone

    .

    then into the light and off to the bit of test trail I have been using .

    first up the shot from the un modded optic
    followed by the modded

    I do think there should be a revised camera setting for the new multi chip leds
    any camera experts on here to advise please .








    It does seem to have tightened the beam up a tad and if I had aimed it up the trail a bit more the hotspot would have lit up the trees in the far distance .

    next pics are stepping down the levels on the maxflex in multimode

    Now looking at the shots
    look at the first pic which is unmodded @ full power.

    and look at pics 3 and 4 which are 1 and 2 steps down in power on the Maxflex
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 11-14-2008 at 12:11 PM.

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    Hi Troutie,

    Very nice!
    Is that a stock MR11 XRE optic? What's "full power" - 700mA?

    Cheers
    Peter

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_JS
    Hi Troutie,

    Very nice!
    Is that a stock MR11 XRE optic? What's "full power" - 700mA?

    Cheers
    Peter

    Hi Peter it is a stock Kahtod MR16 triple optic for the XRE .

    sadly no full power is 600ma , untill the HipFlex comes out

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb

    I do think there should be a revised camera setting for the new multi chip leds
    A bit of trial and error would be your best bet Troutie. I would probably start by changing one stop in aperture, ie going from f4 to f5.6 as it will effectively halve the amount of light hitting the sensor. That should:
    a) prevent blowing the highlights in the beam hotspot.
    b) Give a slightly wider depth of field which will make focus points less critical when trying to focus in the dark.

  50. #50
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    Cheers salty
    what about the time , 6 seconds my camera s next setting is 4.5 secs
    what effect would that have .

    The goal is to have the shot look like what you see when riding

    it would seem that the camera setting can make a poor light look good

    do Lupine use a different setting than the MTBR ones

  51. #51
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    Time is the other possibility, going from 6 to 4/4.5 seconds would yield a noticeable reduction in overall "brightness".

    I found that i had NFI where i was focussing with my weak little lights and was relying on depth of field to ensure that something was in focus.

    I did see reference to a different set of exposures in a thread here just the other day but I have no idea where it was.

  52. #52
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    So which gives the most truthfull result

    smaller aperture or less time .

    what settings did you use for the Salty sock pics
    still makes me laugh socks on sticks in the middle of the night

  53. #53
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    Troutie, I think Salty's right about a bit of trial-and-error being needed, since you're the one pushing the envelope here

    For example, I'd first try stopping down from f4 -> f5.6, which exactly halves the amount of light reaching the sensor. My gut-feeling is that'll probably give a nicely exposed beamshot.

    But failing that, try reducing the shutter-speed from 6sec -> 4.5sec instead. But bear in mind that 4.5s in not one of the 'standard' slow shutter-speeds available on most cameras ie. 1, 2 & 4seconds... Anyway, 4.5sec @f4 will reduce the light reaching the sensor by 33% (which is stiil probably a bit overexposed). Pls let us know what you discover.
    Brisbane, AU

  54. #54
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    I thought your idea of using the MTBR settings was a good one and mirrored that for the socks on sticks. (as closely as possible, Max aperture i could get on the crap lens was 4.5).

    If you were to drop the exposure by half, increase the aperture by a stop, or drop the ISO by half... the results would be all but indistinguishable - less light hitting the sensor and a "darker" looking pic.

    In all honesty, the only way you will be able to replicate what you are seeing is to take a couple with varied exposures and see what best replicates what you are seeing.

    I first said i would play with aperture first but it is more difficult to visualize what a change in aperture means to your overall exposure, so start by taking multiple pics at 3,4,5 secs and review them and see what you like.

  55. #55
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    There is one small upside with faster shutter-speeds; a shorter shutter-speed will help minimize the risk of blur due to camera-shake. Of course, you'll still need a tripod, but the beamshots will tend to be sharper at the faster shutter-speed. Plus in some recent beamshots I saw plenty of blur due to the vegetation swaying wildly in the strong breeze, so that effect would be minimized as well.

    One last tip, for tripod pics you ideally want a remote shutter-release, otherwise pressing the shutter will cause the whole camera+tripod to shake (only a bit, but that's enough). But here's a good trick in case you don't have a fancy remote shutter-release:
    * Just set the camera's inbuilt self-timer (I like 2-seconds delay). In this way, pressing the shutter doesn't shake the camera 'cos the shutter doesn't fire until 2 seconds later
    Last edited by hootsmon; 11-17-2008 at 03:46 PM. Reason: spello
    Brisbane, AU

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    Since your using a P&S start with playing with either the exposure time, or the aperture until you get something that looks correct in exposure.

    The more light you have, either the shorter your exposure should be, or the smaller your aperture should be (Bigger numbers since its a fraction).
    www.mtbiker.ca

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    As well as aperture and exposure time, Salty did mention ISO (gain or amplification of the electrical signal from your camera's sensor). This is important - you need to choose a setting for this. Some camera's will use an auto ISO setting, and this will make comparisons very hard....The more gain (higher ISO value) the brighter the picture will be until it gets noisy (speckles). Expensive cameras like full frame SLRs will be able to go up ISO 12000 or more with out the speckle effects (thus allowing faster shutter speed and therefore less motion blur), but typical compacts will struggle with more than ISO 800. Thus I suggest IS0 100, 200 or 400, but you will need to try it on your camera.

    Cheers,
    Peter

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    Just got a nice little envelope of the Ledil Boom reflectors in the mail
    Haven't fired them up yet, but it seems like they need a little trimming when I'm gonna mount them on my "spaghetti" MC-E from Cutter...

    Report and pics to follow as soon as I've lit them up.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by langen
    Just got a nice little envelope of the Ledil Boom reflectors in the mail
    Haven't fired them up yet, but it seems like they need a little trimming when I'm gonna mount them on my "spaghetti" MC-E from Cutter...

    Report and pics to follow as soon as I've lit them up.
    Come on man quickly

    Are these from Cutters .

  60. #60
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    11 minutes Troutie. Possibly being a little impatient ...

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by glowinthedark
    11 minutes Troutie. Possibly being a little impatient ...
    sorry that is me excitable and highly strung
    I just got excited that someone had the long awaited boom reflector sorry I wont do it again .

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    Take your time. It's OK, we know you'll pull through.

    As long as the pics are good ;-)

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    Good to hear the Boom reflectors are shipping! I'll be keeping an eye on the mailbox!

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by langen
    Just got a nice little envelope of the Ledil Boom reflectors in the mail
    Haven't fired them up yet, but it seems like they need a little trimming when I'm gonna mount them on my "spaghetti" MC-E from Cutter...

    Report and pics to follow as soon as I've lit them up.
    Wonder if BR uses them in their new dual MCE light (available now), its reflector based:

    http://www.brlights.com/

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Come on man quickly

    Are these from Cutters .
    Hehe. Not from Cutter - ordered directly from Ledil. I'll try to post up som pics when I get home from work this evening.

    Patience is a virtue

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by langen
    Hehe. Not from Cutter - ordered directly from Ledil. I'll try to post up som pics when I get home from work this evening.

    Patience is a virtue
    After some very preliminary backyard testing with the narrow Boom reflector, I think I can say WOW. Without having seen a Tesla in real life, I think I can say that this is THE Tesla-killer.
    Very nice hotspot with LOTS of spill. A whole different beam-pattern than any lens I've tried. I guess that's the thing with reflectors - you can get both hotspot AND spill. With one if these on the helmet and one on the bars I'll be more than happy.

    Only thing is I didn't take any beamshots. This is why:


    (Shown with Carclo 26,5mm lens)

    Since I only have 2 arms, I can't manage to hold the camera, battery and test-rig at the same time. But pics will come! A guy I know has promised to come by with his 2009 Wilma, and I think I should be able to get hold of a L&M ARC to compare with also.

    I had to file off a little of the base to make room for all 8 solder-points(I removed the double-sided tape that sat underneath prior to taking the pic):

    I think that this filing is needed even if you have a 4s star and only 2 solder points.


    Test-setup:



    To sum it up:
    I think Ledil has laid a golden egg here



    As a side-note - this is the MC-E I recieved from DX:


    = sh!tty quality control (and soldering for that matter)!!

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    I know, I know....

  68. #68
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    Oh Baby! That is one nice looking reflector. I can't wait to see the beam shots!

    bummer about the emmitter though...

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by langen
    Hehe. Not from Cutter - ordered directly from Ledil. I'll try to post up som pics when I get home from work this evening.

    Patience is a virtue
    How did you order direct from Ledil?
    I thought we all had to go through the typical BS of shipping half way around the world-only to ship it back.
    Seriously though, Ledil will process orders direct or is there a minimum order?

    Eric S

  70. #70
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    [QUOTE/]Mark @ cutter:
    Ours have been shipped from Ledil 2 days ago and should be here by Monday
    Cheers
    Mark[/QUOTE]

    Just got this from mark at cutter regarding the Boom reflectors

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocean breathes salty
    Just got this from mark at cutter regarding the Boom reflectors
    Feck me what the hell have Ledil been playing at these things should have
    been on the shelves for when the MCE hit the shelves .

    they will have had samples for R&D way before then .

    so it will be december when I get mine

    I hope they live up to expectations .
    and all this time has been spent getting perfection.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by joebreez
    How did you order direct from Ledil?
    I thought we all had to go through the typical BS of shipping half way around the world-only to ship it back.
    Seriously though, Ledil will process orders direct or is there a minimum order?

    Eric S
    I just used sales[at]ledil[dot]com found here
    http://www.ledil.fi/index.php?page=contact

    I ordered 6(!) pcs for testing purposes. They were 0,89 Euro + 22% VAT a piece.Shipping from Finland to Norway was 15 Euros + 22% VAT. Quite steep shipping for 6 pcs in other words..
    My impression is that they would handle small orders, but if there suddenly comes in 100's of orders from DIY'ers things might change.
    But I guess if you US guys arrange a group buy, it'll be a whole different story.

    Beam-pattern:
    compared to a 3 x XR-E with 2 x 15 degree and 1 x 9 degree Ledil square lens @1A (my regular bar-light), the MC-E/Boom @1A blew the old light out of the water. Hotspot was a little brighter, but the spill was in another ballpark.

    This is a no-brainer.

  73. #73
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    we have been very patient waiting

    where are the beamshots

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by langen
    As a side-note - this is the MC-E I recieved from DX:


    = sh!tty quality control (and soldering for that matter)!!
    I've got one from DX soldered exactly like this. It's allready on its way back to Hong Kong...

    BTW, Langen, which FWHM angle is the reflector you tested?

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by ortelius
    BTW, Langen, which FWHM angle is the reflector you tested?
    It's the BOOM-MC-S
    Product code: 10569

    ..and what you asked for: 10 degrees. But that does NOT include the spill!

    As you can see on page 2 here
    http://www.ledil.com/datasheets/DataSheet_Boom_mc.pdf
    the spill light is approx 35-40 degrees!
    Last edited by langen; 11-20-2008 at 08:09 AM.

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    How does one order directly from Ledil?

  77. #77
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    US guys Digikey has the Ledil line listed as shipping on Dec 4th. I put in a small order of both the boomerang and LM1 just to see when I get mine.

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    I'm thinking about putting in my order to Digikey for narrow and medium, any reason to even consider the wide?

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by kgardnez
    How does one order directly from Ledil?
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by langen
    I just used sales[at]ledil[dot]com found here
    http://www.ledil.fi/index.php?page=contact

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    Polymer optics ?

    It seems that if the 6deg becomes a 10deg with the MC-E maybe the concentrator they make will be usable with the MC-E. The concentrator is a polymer optic for fiber optic light insertion with with the XR-E. Its a super narrow beam, like 3 or 4 deg. I may eventually try this out. This could be a nice narrow spot option for the MC-E.

    Still no sign of the EVA? wow ledil is slow.
    I guess the 5 up 35.5mm XP-E and the 10mm round single XP-E smooth spot wont be available until next year at this rate, and by then there will certainly be a new led available....

    Any one in the US have an extra boomerang SS reflector they want to sell me?
    Shipping from cutter or digikey is a lot since I really just need 1 boomerang to replace the lame LM1.

  81. #81
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    LM1 from cutter not the right part #

    Just checked out the Ledil stock at digikey. The LM1 from digikey lists 4 parts. The data sheet shows photos of 4 optics but until now we couldn't get the frosted one shown in the data sheet. Digikey says the LM1 comes in 4 flavors, real spot, Diffuser, medium and rectangle. The diffuser is the 20deg part I got from cutter that is so disappointing. Digikey and the Ledil data sheet dont list a beam angle for the real spot. Guess I will have to get one and play around with it.

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    Shipping from cutter or digikey is a lot since I really just need 1 boomerang to replace the lame LM1.

    why is the LM1 lame?

  83. #83
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    wow all these people with MCEs and no good optics

    it would seem and this is from another party that Ledil did a production run of optics but they were not good so this is where the delay has come from redoing or even redisigning the optics .
    so this may be a good thing rather than them putting out a design that was bad.
    unfortunatly buying an optic when all we have seen is a white wall shot and some mumbo jumbo that only a few will understand is not ideal .

    maybe we should have been more aware about the problems these multi emitter devices have from the P7 .

    as you know I have tried a few options and have been a tad underwhelmed but have on order like some on here the ledil options I am not antisipating any great nirvana just hoping for something better than I have tried .

    I wonder what Polymer optics have come up with and are they on the shelves yet .

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    Here we go!

    Then I've had myself a little walk outdoors.

    Note to self: It's hard to take decent pictures without a tripod/etc. Especially picture nr 2 is a tiny bit blutty.

    Lights used:
    - 1 x Cree MC-E + Ledil Boom reflector, 10 degrees @1A
    - 3 x Cree XR-E (not the latest bin) + 2 x 15 degrees og 1 x 9 degrees Ledil square lenses@1A This is the light I've happily used as a bar-light for the last 2 seasons.

    In the backyard:
    3 x XR-E:



    MC-E:

    (Blurry - I know..)


    In a park nearby (pictures taken a little from the side)
    3 x XR-E - 2 pics where I held the light a bit different:






    MC-E:



    Especially the last picture shows how defined the beam is. IMO this is a good thing. I'm not sure whether the pics show the good combo of hotspot and huge spill, but it's there. Trust me.

    It must be taken into account that the MC-E light has 33% more light than the XR-E.

    All pics taken with F = 2,8, ISO = 200 @ 1 second.
    Since I used an Ixus with not-so-good wide angle, it was actually a bit hard to really show how wide the MC-E beam is.

    Conclusion: I'm sold!

    Next step: Build a housing for this sucka

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    uk group buy from ledil direct?

    Is any one in the uk going to buy some Boom reflectors direct from ledil as i would be interested in buying 2 10 degrees ones?

    and has any one heard when cutters are going to get them?

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    I can't say I see a hotspot, but hopefully there really is one! My 3x R2 bin with 1 wide (15), one smooth spot (7) and one real spot (6), is just spotty enough. Actually a pretty good balance between spill and spot, though more punch wouldn't hurt. I'm afraid the MCE may still not be good as a helmet light. Probably a great bar light though!

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    Digikey should have the -RS version of the LM1 soon and despite the far less than good results from my LM1-D part I still want to try it. And the boomerang as well. Some time next week or maybe tomorrow i will finally get around to posting pics of my little MC-E helmet light and maybe some crappy beam shots too..
    There has to be some way other than a 40mm reflector to get a nice spot out of this thing...

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjay
    Digikey should have the -RS version of the LM1 soon and despite the far less than good results from my LM1-D part I still want to try it. And the boomerang as well. Some time next week or maybe tomorrow i will finally get around to posting pics of my little MC-E helmet light and maybe some crappy beam shots too..
    There has to be some way other than a 40mm reflector to get a nice spot out of this thing...
    I can't wait to see the pics!
    I agree... there has got to be a way! ..and my design counts on it, so it has to happen!

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    langen, use trees. Press the camera against a tree for a long exposure shot. The point of focus for both lights should be the same for a fair comparison. Just from the blurry shots alone, the Boomerang looks to be a fantastic option. I am a big fan of the square Ledils but this looks like an excellent replacement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbee1
    langen, use trees. Press the camera against a tree for a long exposure shot. The point of focus for both lights should be the same for a fair comparison. Just from the blurry shots alone, the Boomerang looks to be a fantastic option. I am a big fan of the square Ledils but this looks like an excellent replacement.

    Or sit it on top of a park bench or a fence or something sturdy. Set the automatic timer so that the camera is nice and still when the exposure happens. That way you don't wobble the camera when you press the button. Saves having to track down a tripod

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbee1
    langen, use trees. Press the camera against a tree for a long exposure shot. The point of focus for both lights should be the same for a fair comparison. Just from the blurry shots alone, the Boomerang looks to be a fantastic option. I am a big fan of the square Ledils but this looks like an excellent replacement.

    Or sit it on top of a park bench or a fence or something sturdy. Set the automatic timer so that the camera is nice and still when the exposure happens. That way you don't wobble the camera when you press the button. Saves having to track down a tripod

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by langen
    As a side-note - this is the MC-E I recieved from DX:
    = sh!tty quality control (and soldering for that matter)!!
    Is the DX MC-E supposed to be soldered so that you can wire them any way you want? As in each wire on the emitter is connected directly to the solder pads. I see that in the picture the solder on the 3 wires are touching.

    Are the MC-E's from cutter that are wired 2P2S just done with the spaghetti of red wires like I saw in the pic in this thread? Isn't there a way to do that within the pcb the emitter is attached to? The red wires seem like a mess...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjzraz
    Is the DX MC-E supposed to be soldered so that you can wire them any way you want? As in each wire on the emitter is connected directly to the solder pads. I see that in the picture the solder on the 3 wires are touching.
    No, it's not. All 4 legs are supposed to be connected together, not just 3...

    Quote Originally Posted by mjzraz
    Are the MC-E's from cutter that are wired 2P2S just done with the spaghetti of red wires like I saw in the pic in this thread? Isn't there a way to do that within the pcb the emitter is attached to? The red wires seem like a mess...
    When I ordered I specifically asked for a 4S setup, but I didn't think that the configuration would be done with wires. It shouldn't be THAT difficult to get hold of a 4S star-board??

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumbee1
    langen, use trees. Press the camera against a tree for a long exposure shot. The point of focus for both lights should be the same for a fair comparison. Just from the blurry shots alone, the Boomerang looks to be a fantastic option. I am a big fan of the square Ledils but this looks like an excellent replacement.
    I know.. The pics does not do the Boom justice. Maybe I'll get time tomorrow night to take some better pics.

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    UFO landing in the backyard!

    The lights are the same as before. They are about 3m from the bushes. Pics are F = 2,8 and 0,8 seconds.

    3 x XR-E:


    MC-E w/narrow Boom:


    Hopefully now you can see both the hotspot and the crazy spill.

    Convinced? I am

  96. #96
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    Thanks for that Langen
    That is looking encouraging on the beam with the centre being nicely defined .
    and Cutters say they will be shipping back orders this week

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by langen
    UFO landing in the backyard! ....
    Excellent work there Langen! A very impressive beam indeeed.
    Brisbane, AU

  98. #98
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    I have copied these from the datasheets as a comparison with Langens pics
    BOOM


    EVA

  99. #99
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    The hotspot is clearly more visible in the new pics. Nice work

    Looks like it is the leader for MCE optics at the present.

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    Can you tell more about the setups? What mA is each running?

    Great shots, I'm very shocked how wide the MCE beam is even with the narrow optic.

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