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  1. #1
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    Upset Four4th lights Miss selling

    has any one seen these before? http://www.four4th.co.uk/index.html

    The light looks very good but I think their calculations are way off, they claim 1200 lm from 4 XP-E R2's and a 3.5 hour burn time with a 14.8 2.6Ah battery pack.

    I calculated it from the cree datasheets and worked out they'd have to run the XP-E R2'2 @ about 1100ma to get 1200lm and with that battery pack they'd only get 2.5 hours on max.

    I think i've worked out why they got their output wrong they've added 170% to 114.
    Last edited by allport; 01-12-2010 at 05:28 AM.

  2. #2
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    It's not miss selling, it is 'marketing'.
    These is a key difference (giver or reciever)

    If they collimate the light to be a tigheter spot the lumen will go up (I may have got lumens/candella mixed up again, I am sure someone will correct me)

    I would be 1/10 of these companies quotes correct figure.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaveGiant
    It's not miss selling, it is 'marketing'.
    These is a key difference (giver or reciever)

    If they collimate the light to be a tigheter spot the lumen will go up (I may have got lumens/candella mixed up again, I am sure someone will correct me)

    I would be 1/10 of these companies quotes correct figure.
    No They are quoting the manuractures claimed out put for the XP-E and they have miss calculated the lumen level @ 700ma
    And they can be prosecuted under the trades description act. If there going to quote claimed figures like the rest of us the least they can do is get them right.
    Last edited by allport; 01-12-2010 at 06:59 AM.

  4. #4
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    Good looking light.
    Wonder if the builders haunt our forum. Lots of good ideas there all in one product.
    It sounds like they build their own drivers as well. Good stuff.

  5. #5
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    Not bad prices...
    even the charger is only a score.. 20
    http://www.four4th.co.uk/four4th_battery_chargers.shtml

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by odtexas
    Good looking light.
    Wonder if the builders haunt our forum.
    Hmmm, yes it does look a bit "not round not square"

  7. #7
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    I'm with the OP, those figures will never be reached by this light. They claim 1200 Lumens out of 4 XR-E's - even the always "optimistic" Lupine only claims 1100 Lumens for their latest XP-G Wilma. At the same time Lupine rates the Wilma at 17 watts and their light head weighs 112g. Say the Four4th Light "only" exaggerates as much as Lupine does, than they would probably have to burn around 20 watts with the XR-Es to get to 1200 lumens - in a 63g light head. No way such as small head is going to dissipate so much heat.
    And as the OP said, the runtimes don't add up either.

    It's a shame that they have to spoil such a nice light with those bs marketing figures.

  8. #8
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    I agree that it's a shame they had to spoil it as it just makes you wonder what you can believe.
    They have some great batteries that I like the look of but can I trust a company that tells porkies.

    Why not simply tell the truth about a product, if it is good enough it will speak for it's self.

  9. #9
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    YB
    "not round not square"
    No, it is certainly more of a not square not round, than not round not square.
    Fine design though. I really do like the multi-position helmet mount.
    A DIY helmet mount is about the only thing that really hasn't been dialed in here on the board.

  10. #10
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    Aside from the optimistic output number, it's not a bad looking light.

    I suppose it's not entirely out of the question that it could be overdriven to that output, but I'd want a lot more fins (round-bottomed, if I had my way )

    What's with the "commuter" lens? Are they focusing all 4 leds through a single aspheric lens? What sort of beam will that produce?

    JZ
    It's not about speed, it's about lack of control.

  11. #11
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    Nothing on multi drive levels

    Nothing mentioned on multiple drive leves or driver at all. I wonder if it's like the Ay-Ups and is just a resistor.... you may get 1200Lumen for 30 seconds then drop to 700-800 and end up with the runtime quoted runtime if you keep measuring down to 100 Lumen.

    The comuter lens is described as being 180 * 25 so clearly gives some side visability it is interesting.

  12. #12
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    OK proper driver in it.

    OK I found a picture of the driver no spec though but it looks smart enough.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifor
    OK I found a picture of the driver no spec though but it looks smart enough.
    Yeah, driver looks interesting. I would like to know the specs, and could order a few.

  14. #14
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    Me likey.. ....Nice looking build for a quad XR-E. One of the best looking ( and functional ) helmet mount designs I've seen in long time. Like everyone else I question the claimed 1200lm output, even if they are over-driving the emitters. I went ahead and sent them an e-mail invite to see if they will answer questions on forum.

  15. #15
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    Is it just me or there actually isn't any mentioning of changing light output levels on their web site? Is the only purpose of that large switch really just to power the light on/off?

  16. #16
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    Yes it does look a nice little light sits a bit high on the helmet though and why would you need a swiveling mount on the helmet when your neck does the same job .

    Yes it does appear to only have the one output which for the size of it and if they are overdriveing the leds could be an issue for heat .

    Is my maths here correct it will be drawing around 1 amp so it would be impossible to get 3.5 hours from a 2.6 amp hour battery
    .

  17. #17
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    I've worked out how they have arrived at 1200 lm and 3.5 hour burn time. They've looked at the cree datasheet and taken the 114 lm @ 350ma the 100% figure and added 170% to get 300 lm @ 700ma, what they should have done is add 70% to 114 to get 193lm @ 700ma. this would give them 775 lm theoretically and the 3.5 hour burn time they are quoting.

  18. #18
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    As we all know you really want a 5 cell battery (18.5v nominal) in order to stay in regulation with a buck driver and a quad XR-E R2 run on max.

    With a 4 cell battery(14.8v nominal) it will start to get dimmer after around an hour, maybe an hour and a half on full with 2.6mah.

    I ride with a quad XR-E R2, infact it's my favorite light and get three to three and a half hours on full (1A) with a 5 cell battery and maybe 800/900 lumens.

    I do like the Four4th light a lot but the numbers don't add up, maybe the driver they use can work wonders with a 4 cell battery.

    Swiveling helmet mount? Up & down, yes but unless you can see via your ears then why left and right?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by yetibetty
    As we all know you really want a 5 cell battery (18.5v nominal) in order to stay in regulation with a buck driver and a quad XR-E R2 run on max.
    What driver is that? I am asking because latest XR-E R2 that I have, have about 3.3Vf. Calculating 4S*18650 = 14.8, leds 3.3*4 = 13.2, Vin - Vout = 1.6V, pretty much enough for, say, bflex, isn't? Well, it really depends on the battery quality, of course.

  20. #20
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    Left and right is a very much needed option for commuting. I always turn my helmet light a bit to the right to avoid blinding those in oncoming cars.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itess
    What driver is that? I am asking because latest XR-E R2 that I have, have about 3.3Vf. Calculating 4S*18650 = 14.8, leds 3.3*4 = 13.2, Vin - Vout = 1.6V, pretty much enough for, say, bflex, isn't? Well, it really depends on the battery quality, of course.
    Good point, my XR-E R2's are high vf 3.7v

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaVolt
    Left and right is a very much needed option for commuting. I always turn my helmet light a bit to the right to avoid blinding those in oncoming cars.

    I know it is horses for course here but that would do my head in .
    as you then need your head turned slightly when ever there are no cars to get the light pointing down the road . I find it is a reflex action to look away when a car approaches or a quick look at him if he does not dip .

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    I know it is horses for course here but that would do my head in .
    as you then need your head turned slightly when ever there are no cars to get the light pointing down the road . I find it is a reflex action to look away when a car approaches or a quick look at him if he does not dip .
    Have you tried attaching a piece of string/cord to the light so that one end hangs down over your right shoulder and the other over your left shoulder.
    You can then pull on one side to move the light in the desired direction, this is on the assumption that you cycle in a neck brace

  24. #24
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    I have one those these Lights, its the Spot beam with an under stem battery which doesnt seem to be on the website yet. The battery lead is neaty coiled around the battery at a length so that it can be used with my helmet bracket and battery can attach to racksack or back pocket. Its not heavy and sits nicely under the handlebar stem. i didnt notice it when riding single tracks you cant feel add any weight. When i first tested the duration of battery life i was out riding for 2 3/4 hours and the lamp was still going strong. I dont know how much charge it had in it as it was for the first time. But what i can say is that during the afternoon it light up the dark forrest trails light no other lamp ive seen and at night its excellent.
    My light was a Christmas gift i recieved and i came across this thread searching details for the lamp as the only thing i didnt recieve with the pack was instructions to functions charging time and length of time when on etc. i found by mistake that it has a flashing option both normal beam and high beam. I have to say it really is very well made or should i say Engineered.

  25. #25
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  26. #26
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    I believe they used on aircraft.

  27. #27
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    They look military spec to me.

  28. #28
    MHC
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    They're Brad Harrison connectors http://www.bradharrisonsales.com/

  29. #29
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    Awsome light, got the big bottle battery and did 40 miles offroad mostly last week, after 5 hours it was still going strong, much brighter than my mates chinese stuff even though he was on third battery! way out lasted me (had to get picked up cos legs died). Fantastic build quality

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