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  1. #1
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    cree MC E light but need a little help

    As you might have seen from some of my posts I have been making the bar mounts on my lights in the hope that they will use the bars for a bit of heat removal.

    so I thought I would take it a bit further with a housing for the cree mc e led when it becomes available

    here is the idea for my light .



    this will also keep it out of the way when turning the bike over to fix a flat.

    So with this design where do I put the driver to keep it as small as possible
    I am not sure which optic to use either the 20mm or 26.6 mm
    if I used the 20 mm then I could put 2 mc e`s side by side in the aluminium I have

    but I figured the larger 26.6mm optic may be the best for the leds and would make a smaller light.

    any ideas please

  2. #2
    Happy in Happy Valley
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    I'd be a bit worried about getting good thermal contact with the bars. IMO you'd want to clean off whatever paint was on the bar, and use some thermal paste. Your bar mount has to make strong clamping pressure with the bar.

    Even assuming a good thermal connection to the bar, you're not really adding alot of mass. I think it may saturate rather more quickly then you might like.

    What kind of wattage do you want to push through the LEDs?

    Where are you planning on putting the battery? My first thought is a water-bottle setup, where you cold keep the driver in the bottle with the battery.

  3. #3
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    ref contact with the bars they are anodised so no need to remove any paint
    the light will hopefully be machined to be a good fit and a little tip here is to use a little
    zinc baby botty cream as zinc is a great heat conducter and the other ingredient is caster oil so will not hurt the bars.

    also there will be 1.8 square inches of contact with the bars.

    the cree mc e leds will be powered at 700 ma

    I already put my battery in small camera bag under the stem it is a 15 v li ion

    I have been doodling again and here is my next idea on this theme.


  4. #4
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    Looks good troutie, but since you asked for feedback Ill try and shoot it down...
    Its gonna get hot. It might expand enough that it gets loose on the bars.
    I would make it hang or sit on top of the bars, and COG right over or under the bars so it doesn't want to flop down. Over the bars means you don't have to deal with cable shadows either...not so bad on a triple of quad but with such a small source a cable in the way would be really bad.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Looks good troutie, but since you asked for feedback Ill try and shoot it down...
    Its gonna get hot. It might expand enough that it gets loose on the bars.
    I would make it hang or sit on top of the bars, and COG right over or under the bars so it doesn't want to flop down. Over the bars means you don't have to deal with cable shadows either...not so bad on a triple of quad but with such a small source a cable in the way would be really bad.

    Cheers znomit , that is why I posted for constructive feedback

    good point about the expansion ok I make the rear of the clamp oversize and line it with inertube .

    I like the vertical idea too and it might give me more space for the driver but the heat then has to travel down to soak to the bars .

    cant hang down cos the cables will deff be in the way but I like that too keeps the light out of the way from over the bar dismounts too .
    will have to check where the cables are

  6. #6
    dweeby
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    I have always liked the idea of using the bike as a heatsink and I think it should work fine, copper grease is a good heat conductor but I never knew about zink cream. The only problem I can find is you can't aim the light left to right.
    Becouse heat rises having the light under the bars will allow the heat to rise into the bars, but then as said before you may have cable probs. EDIT the post above wasn't there when I started typing.

  7. #7
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    Cheers dweeby
    never even thought about the heat rising into the bars
    I will have a close look at the cables and see if it can go under and experiment with my exsisting light to see any shadows .

    also copper grease I have a massive tub of that just never thought about using it
    for heat transfer

  8. #8
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    What are the masses with carbon bars going to do?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    good point about the expansion ok I make the rear of the clamp oversize and line it with inertube .
    If you do that it wont transfer the heat.
    Im really liking my under stem setups. Totally out of the way. I used some welding rod to spread the cables. I think all stems are different though so a machined clamp is no good.... maybe a double clamp to the bars or a single offset one? Someone made a double clamp to the bars either side of the stem and it looked fantastic, think it was that curvy triple???

  10. #10
    dweeby
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    I had an idea some time ago after too many beers. It was to make a stem face plate with Leds in and put the driver insde of the hollow stem. It never happend but I still look at my wobbly drawing for a laugh now and then.
    But you never know, one day........

    Just a thought on expansion, if the bar clamp and bar are both made from the same meterial won't they both expand as they get warm and then still fit tight. Maybe not, not sure on that.

  11. #11
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    Okay :-

    Heat only rises in air/water not in solids, because it makes the air expand and therefore lighter than the normal sized air around it in Metal heat will radiate equally, feel your copper central heating pipes same heat top and bottom, yes the heat of the bars will convect up towards the unit but as your moving it'll have zero effect.

    NO way is this thing going to get hot enough for it to become loose on the bars, 80c is the internal max temperature, so doubt you'll get to 40c external temperature while riding outta and even then the bars will heat up and expand to fill the gap anyway.

    Wouldn't use Copper Grease, yes the copper part is good but the grease part isn't better off with CPU thermal paste.

    What you really need is copper water filled bars though

    Water filled bars, would really increase the transfer rate, then a pump and a motorbike radiator mounted under your stem

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    I had an idea some time ago after too many beers. It was to make a stem face plate with Leds in and put the driver insde of the hollow stem. It never happend but I still look at my wobbly drawing for a laugh now and then.
    But you never know, one day........

    Just a thought on expansion, if the bar clamp and bar are both made from the same meterial won't they both expand as they get warm and then still fit tight. Maybe not, not sure on that.
    Thats a cool idea Dweeby.

    Regarding expansion, the light housing is going to be significantly hotter than the bars and hence get bigger.... probably a lot hotter.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turveyd
    Okay :-

    Heat only rises in air/water not in solids, because it makes the air expand and therefore lighter than the normal sized air around it in Metal heat will radiate equally, feel your copper central heating pipes same heat top and bottom, yes the heat of the bars will convect up towards the unit but as your moving it'll have zero effect.

    NO way is this thing going to get hot enough for it to become loose on the bars, 80c is the internal max temperature, so doubt you'll get to 40c external temperature while riding outta and even then the bars will heat up and expand to fill the gap anyway.

    Wouldn't use Copper Grease, yes the copper part is good but the grease part isn't better off with CPU thermal paste.

    What you really need is copper water filled bars though

    Water filled bars, would really increase the transfer rate, then a pump and a motorbike radiator mounted under your stem
    I Believe Turveyd is correct in regards to heat transfer in solids and I agree that thermal paste would be the best option. Copper cote/grease gets everywhere, regardless of how hard you try not to spread it.

    Just thinking out loud here...How would you go making your housing a rectangular shape with rounded corners and 3mm x 2.5mm cooling fins equally spaced around the entire housing?...mmm, I do like dweebys stem mounted light idea, though!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    If you do that it wont transfer the heat.
    no I would leave the front of the clamp bare and a good fit to the bars

    dweebys idea is good can you get into the stem with the bars in the way
    now that would take some making
    can we see your wobbly drawing dweeby please

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    no I would leave the front of the clamp bare and a good fit to the bars

    dweebys idea is good can you get into the stem with the bars in the way
    now that would take some making
    can we see your wobbly drawing dweeby please

    You could spring load the mounting bolts too to keep things tight... hmmm.

    Yeah, that stem mount would kick arse. Are the bolts a standard spacing?

    ps, I was snooping cutter.com.au and they have prices up on MC-E leds.
    Last edited by znomit; 06-29-2008 at 10:50 PM.

  16. #16
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    well Hope do make a stem faceplate with mount for their lights and battery
    I bet the bolt holes are not standard though

    MC-E prices http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=45
    but not until august/september

    Oh well that gives me plenty of time to get the housing sorted

  17. #17
    dweeby
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    It's a funny old world, but I mentioned the stem light to fellow mtbr members about a year ago and most thought I was mad so I listened to advice for once and never bothered. Only to find people now like the Idea and most annoying is that exposure lights have gone and done it(well a commuter version). I don't want to take the subject off of troutie-mtbs light just agreeing with using an alloy bike as a heatsink.

  18. #18
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    Dont worry about my thread it is threads like this that spark ideas for folk.

    Your stem faceplate idea just lends itself to the new MC-E led and 20 mm optics
    with there small footprint I think the optic and led mcpcb will be max 15 mm deep and the driver in the stem ok you lose the thermal protection but I am sure you could put 2 MC-Es on a face plate and there would be plenty to take the heat away

    one main issue would be getting the vertical angle right for your own stem.
    I do have an idea how to make it adjustable though.

    Come on dweeby you can do it , you know you want the challenge

  19. #19
    dweeby
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    There are a few problems and the biggest one has always been the aim of the thing. but it can be done. The idea at first was to have it permanently fitted as no real point removing it when the only added weight is two leds and a driver. But not too long ago someone posted (maybe znomit)a dynamo light with the elecronics inside the fork steerer and that got me thinking again. A DC socket in the top cap and you could just plug the battery into it and go. I don't know about this one as a challenge, I end up not sleeping untill it's done, it pisses the wife off and turns my house into a load of wire and metal dust.

    What is your idea for adjustability, mine is simply to have slots instead of holes.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    There are a few problems and the biggest one has always been the aim of the thing. but it can be done.
    ... not too long ago someone posted (maybe znomit)a dynamo light with the elecronics inside the fork steerer and that got me thinking again.

    What is your idea for adjustability, mine is simply to have slots instead of holes.
    Theres is a bit of adjustability in the face plate anyway. If its a floody beam the adjustment isn't critical so you could guess and design most of the angle in.
    If you dont need to transfer heat to the bars you can make a simple pivoting plate for perfect aim.

    Yes, there is a lot of spare room in the steerer tube. The board I bought from pilom.com for my dyno is custom designed to fit, clever. A bflex should squeeze in a switch seals the top. You should be able to run wires past the star nut. Battery and LED wires out the bottom. Very tidy.

  21. #21
    dweeby
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    I bet you are the first to do it znomit, I've looked at your lights and this is right up your street.

    When I had the idea a year ago it was all buck pucks and no one had thermal protection, also 2 single die LEDs was the norm so you could squeeze 3 x 18650 cells lenth ways for the required 11.1 battery into the steerer and just have a charge socket on the top cap or bottom of the steerer. Soon though we will have a lot more heat and require bigger batteries. Unless ofcourse you have dynamo power.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    ... you could squeeze 3 x 18650 cells lenth ways for the required 11.1 battery into the steerer and just have a charge socket on the top cap or bottom of the steerer. Soon though we will have a lot more heat and require bigger batteries. Unless ofcourse you have dynamo power.
    Oh, never thought about putting batteries in there... I did have some ideas for putting the lights into bar ends and batteries in the handlebars. If I get a commuter with flat bars Ill probably do this... micropucks and 4AA batteries in bars. That might be a good MC-E solution too. One light either bar end.

  23. #23
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    Ha Ha Ha Ha

    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    I end up not sleeping untill it's done, it pisses the wife off and turns my house into a load of wire and metal dust.
    I just got in and read this still laughing

    now off in to the garage to pull the faceplate off the bike and have a look.
    and I bet I am not the only one

    That would be so cool batteries inside to with a charge jack and pretty much unstealable
    on a comuter bike.

  24. #24
    dweeby
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    can we see your wobbly drawing dweeby please
    Too much beer. Thomson x4 stem is just the thing. I will do a new drawing
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  25. #25
    dweeby
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    And trouti, you've almost drawn it anyway. I just did a little change.
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  26. #26
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    that looks doable just need to work out the angle for the lights .
    with the MC-E and 2 * 20 mm optics you have got 1500 lum in a tiny footprint on the bike
    1 medium optic and 1 wide oval optic with the driver in the stem just plug the battery in and go .

  27. #27
    dweeby
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    OK, I'm on the boil, the wife likes it because she doesn't have to carry a light in her backpack and then fit it and remove it etc. it's just there! Anyway I will try and make a mock up out of MDF tomorrow and I have found (and ordered) some 18mm aluminium reflectors on DX that I think will work and give a bit more room, one smooth and one textured

    Just thinking out loud but a nice silver aluminium stem and some alloy reflectors built in, very bling. Can't afford a new stem though so odd silver front on black stem will do.
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  28. #28
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    Whoa , way to go Dweeby , just cant resist
    are you a salesman , you sweet talking ( sold the idea to the missus )

    cant wait to see some pics how you are going to do it.


    here is a doodle of my adjustable idea not really sure how to do it though
    and keep the good thermal contact.
    the more I think about it I think you just need to get the angles right first time .





    please update us as you progress
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 07-01-2008 at 03:43 PM.

  29. #29
    dweeby
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    Yes the sun did come out in the UK and it went to your head as well, troutie

  30. #30
    dweeby
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    Feel free to laugh your socks off, I already have!
    I made a Qiuck mock up of the stem face plate out of MDF and found that getting the light angle right will be very very hard, the rest isn't too bad. Oh and MDF is crap should have used plywood.
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  31. #31
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    dweeby, that looks uber cool i love it, but like you say aiming the beam will kill the deal
    if you go more flood than spot it wouldn`t have to be so precise

  32. #32
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    Yeah, thats real tidy.
    ...Almost as nice as the design in my head, which solves the heat and aiming problems. Hopefully its as nice when drawn out on paper

  33. #33
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    Dweeby
    That looks really ace , How long did it take you to do it.
    get it patented quick

    What are you using to do the machining

    can we please have a picture with it on the bike .

    I have been working away for the past 2 days with no tinterweb so have only just seen it.

    Look what my brother gave me



    19 inches long and 2.5 by 2.25 inches of top quality aircraft qrade aluminium
    so should be enough to make the odd light there.
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 07-03-2008 at 02:07 PM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    getting the light angle right will be very very hard

    If you machine off about 2 mm from the back of the faceplate and ovalise the boltholes a little you will have some fine tuning for the angle without losing too much clamping area .



  35. #35
    A waste of time it is is
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    How will you be able to aim the light where you want it? The majority of MTB stems face slightly upwards, so your lights would also shine up, not down on the trail where you want the light

    For the bars, I like to have two lights. A wide beam angled just in front of the front wheel and then a second wide beam angled so that it illumintaes just in front of the first.

    Supplemented by a helmet light I find this gives the best coverage.

    Good luck guys, I like where this is all heading


    OOps, clearly I didn't read to the end of the thread before I posted that comment. Sorry

  36. #36
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    Im wondering about optics and drivers. One wide and one narrow driven with a balance and a brightness adjustment for full control would be nice.

  37. #37
    dweeby
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    The model only took 15 mins with the Dremel and was just to find out if there was enough space and there is plenty. can't put it on the bike 'cos the crap MDF just crumbles with bolts done up.

    It's good I think to do a mock up but use plywood. I may make a better one out of ply and bolt it on. The problem I have is only having a Dremel a drill and a bench grinder and the only aluminium I have is 10mm thick sheets. So it may just end up as a wooden model.

    Troutie, I'm still thinking on your swivel point idea it may be possible. And it's nice having a brother like that, it's my brother who gives me the 10mm thick sheets.

  38. #38
    dweeby
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    znomit, can we see the idea thats in your head please, it might give my brain a rest

  39. #39
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    Dweeby are your bars oversize ie 31.56mm

    if you want I will post you a bit of this ali as I have plenty

    I will post a pic of what I am doing soon with more details

    Znomit I second Dweebys request for your ideas

    we have shown you ours so you show us yours

  40. #40
    dweeby
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    troutie yes oversize bars. A bit of your aluminium would be very nice thanks.
    shall I pm you my address? Let me know if you want a piece of 10mm it's quite handy.
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  41. #41
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    The reason I asked what size your bars are is this



    being lucky enough to have a mini lathe and milling machine I figured that if I bored the hole the same as the bars then cut it in half then I would have 2 blanks that fit the bars

    like so


    I quess getting the clamp size right is the hardest bit without a lathe so you can have the other half if you want it , and dont mind me doing a bit of the work for you

    I wish you luck with the dremel This aluminium must be very good quality it is quite hard compared to the stuff I have been using in the past ideal for this project

    yes pm me your address and I will get it in the post asap but you must keep sharing the ideas

    What I am impressed with is if you can do a similar quality of build in ali as the mdf mockup with the tools you have that will be fantastic

  42. #42
    dweeby
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    Just another thought...
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  43. #43
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    Yes something like that would work , be adjustable and porbably easier to make

    BUT I really like your concept and mdf mock up and if you don`t mind I am going to blatently steal it and have spent the afternoon in my garage starting it.

    also I am going to ask for help on here whenever I dont know what to do

    Which is about now .





    I have got to the point where I need to try and work out the angle for the lights before I cut anymore metal off it .

    My idea is with the bike on a level floor set the forks which I can lock down to my normal riding position. Then assuming the lights need to point level or just a bit tilted down .

    I am thinking of using a medium beam and a eliptical beam but when ordering the mce`s I will probably order some other optics too

    I do have about 4 degrees of up and down tilt with the faceplate a bit more with the removal of more aluminium.

    I will wait untill it gets dark and see where my bar light points and try and measure the angle somehow.

    any new ideas will be gratefully received ta

  44. #44
    dweeby
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    Man your keen,
    I was thinking that I would tie some string to a tree or something in the distance, tie it at the hight that you want the centre of the beam then tie the other end to the stem. use a spirit level on the string, then put a mark on the spirit level where the bubble is. Then you can use the level any time now that the bubble has been marked. This can be done in daylight but you may get someone asking why you are tying your bike to a tree.

    Everyone must think we are mad.

    And thanks for the help.
    Last edited by dweeby; 07-04-2008 at 09:01 AM.

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    Man your keen,
    I was thinking that I would tie some string to a tree or something in the distance, tie it at the hight that you want the centre of the beam then tie the other end to the stem. use a spirit level on the string, then put a mark on the spirit level where the bubble is. Then you can use the level any time now that the bubble has been marked. This can be done in daylight but you may get someone asking why you are tying your bike to a tree.

    Everyone must think we are mad.

    And thanks for the help.
    No not keen I just got the day off and find it relaxing carving something out of a piece of metal.

    The string idea is a damn good idea the more I think about it I bet if the beam centre of say a spot beam was paralell to the ground then a spot and a flood would be about right .

    If I set it with the bolt holes tight at the top and aim it level then I have the 4 degree tilt available in a downwards direction . or do I set it to have 2 degrees up or down .

    right off to get some string

    next question how far away is going to be the optimal distance for a 790 lumin *2 light
    20 /30 mtres

  46. #46
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well major xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxproblem



    Oh dear glad I didnot pay for the aluminium that is friday afternoon and the aluminium a total write off just because I didnt spot the problem on my drawings.

    and it was looking good too



    anyone spot the fatal flaw.

    the good news is I sorted the perfect angle so the mark 2 will be a lot easier

    Dweeby your bit of ally is ready to mail in the morning , just dont make the same mistake as me.

    I did learn a lot on how to use the lathe though

  47. #47
    dweeby
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    troutie when I made the model I did discover that this helped but obviously all stems are different. Good Luck
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  48. #48
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    Good luck screwing that on.
    Nice work though. Im impressed.
    Regarding aim, mine are 600-700lm and point down a little. At that brightness its not critical. I can move mine up and down a little without noticing. Maybe tie the string to the base of the tree 30m away and line up to that? If your bike has suspension it might change things too so hop on.

    I'm loving this thread guys.

  49. #49
    dweeby
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    Don't throw that bit away, just cut the front off then make a little housing with the bit you cut off.
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  50. #50
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    Thanks for all the sympathy guys

    I didnt even get any from the wife when she found me

    I cant wait untill Dweeby gets his piece of aluminium and starts cutting it
    it is the hardest aluminium I have ever had the privalidge of screwing up

    It does polish to a fantastic finish though

    I might polish the cockup and mount it on the wall as a reminder to take notice of the drawing better

    This might be my last post untill they let me out of the asylem

  51. #51
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    whoo they let me out

    Hi folks I am back but then you knew it would not be long before the mark 2 version would be done

    well after yesterdays cockup it had to be better .

    now it is raining like the world is going to end so back into the garage to make some metal shavings and hopefully something usefull.

    It would seem that the stem angle on my bike it is not possible to make a one piece design

    so back to the drawing board , well a piece of dirty paper in the garage .
    no there is no drawing this time just the voices in my head


























    do you want to see what it looks like

  52. #52
    dweeby
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    do you want to see what it looks like <!-- / message -->
    Yes please.

  53. #53
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    Ok quickly before the straight jacket goes back on



















    WELL YOU DID ASK NICELY

    it just wants some fine tuning and a bit of work with a file and some polish
    and it is ready and waiting for the new multi die Crees and optics.

  54. #54
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    I want one!!!!!! How Much $$$$$

  55. #55
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    Well done, I knew you could do it and I'm glad to see that my stem light idea wasn't mad after all.

    You must have some amazing skill and some nice sharp tools. I may have to buy one from you as there is no way I'm doing that with a Dremel.

    I knew it could be done, great to see one for real ( well on the screen at least)

  56. #56
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    Holy crap!

    That's some great work. You're cranking out some really good stuff.

    Even though I don't have a use for something like that, I'm interested in how you control the swivel.

    And uh, I might want one too...
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  57. #57
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    thanks for the comments guys

    Afew more pics on the bike one slight problem is the mounting holes need a tiny bit of tweaking.



    just clears the cables fine and this is roughly the right angle










    and here is my very messy workshop







    [SIZE="5"]AND THE REAL REASON FOR MAKING THE LIGHT




    is to make all this swarfe and alu dust

    Oh and you can see the pics full size here http://pics-by-chris.fotoblog.org.uk/c1379760_49.html
    Last edited by troutie-mtb; 07-06-2008 at 01:04 AM.

  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by biketavioumaximus
    I want one!!!!!! How Much $$$$$

    biketavioumaximus

    I would not know how to put a value on one of these because from this



    to this took me the whole of saturday with a bit of time off to watch the grand prix quali.



    OK now I know what is looks like and how to do it I might be persuaded to do the hard bits and leave it to the buyer to do the finishing

    also because everyones stems are different it needs to be made for that stem

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob
    That's some great work. You're cranking out some really good stuff.

    Even though I don't have a use for something like that, I'm interested in how you control the swivel.

    And uh, I might want one too...


    Hi Bruce

    The swivel is really to get the angle right for the lights and then it will be invisibly bolted from the back of the faceplate with a couple of M3 bolts tapped into the rear of the eyeball
    also some thermal past in there too


    also I still have the cable entry to the 2 MC-E`s to sort out

    Drivers which are going to live in the hollow stem so have to work out cable routing from there.

    I would like to put a small waterproof power in socket in the stem then it is just a case of plug the battery in and go

    and then the problem of where do I put the switch

    so as you can see it is not finished and I havent even ordered any leds and optics yet

    Cheers Chris

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    Well done, I knew you could do it and I'm glad to see that my stem light idea wasn't mad after all.

    You must have some amazing skill and some nice sharp tools. I may have to buy one from you as there is no way I'm doing that with a Dremel.

    I knew it could be done, great to see one for real ( well on the screen at least)
    Funnyily enough Dweeby most of the work was done with a hacksaw and file after the work on the lathe for the roundy bits

    and as your mdf model suggests you can get it out of one piece for your setup with some carefull measuring and acurate sawing. and I have already done the roundy bit for you

    And sorry I missed the post on sat so will post on monday

    Cheers Chris

  61. #61
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    Troutie, I don't want to send you back to the asylum because the work is beautiful but......have you thought that if you cut just the light housing peice in half, so between the two light recesses, you could then set it up so that the two lights were angled differently. The wider of the two beams at the base of that tree you used to set it up, the tighter beam slightly further down the track.

    My bar lights, twin head, are like this and I find it great for fine tuning depending on the trail. Slow techy trails and the lights are closer to the front wheel, super fast fire trail and I spread them out so I have even light from my helmet mounts all the way back to the closest handle bar mounted one.

    Just a thought, keep up the good work.

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    Troutie, I don't want to send you back to the asylum because the work is beautiful but......have you thought that if you cut just the light housing peice in half, so between the two light recesses, you could then set it up so that the two lights were angled differently. The wider of the two beams at the base of that tree you used to set it up, the tighter beam slightly further down the track.

    Good idea emu but I will leave that to someone else to perfect though I did have the idea of putting A single cree in the middle under the eyeball pointing down and slightly forward
    with no optic to light up the wheel area

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb

    Good idea emu but I will leave that to someone else to perfect though I did have the idea of putting A single cree in the middle under the eyeball pointing down and slightly forward
    with no optic to light up the wheel area
    You could just machine in the led mounts at different angles. Been thinking about this... its easy to optimise angles on the flat but most of the tricky turns are over rolling terrain ... I'm guessing spot 5 degrees lower than flood would work well. I played around with angled lights on a few builds. One was too wide (l/r) other put a bit too much in front(up/down), best solution, as always, is more lumens.
    BUT ... MC-E dies are individually addressable so with a nice driver you could do high/low or narrow/wide. Put angles between the 2 leds, rotate one LED 45deg and there are all sorts of options.
    Someone might do a smart controller for highbeam/lowbeam/narrow/wide as well as output

    I do think a simple balance control between wide and narrow beams is a good idea.

    Sorry my brilliant light idea is looking a bit complicated once put on paper. Basically a periscope so LEDs point down and an adjustable mirror to bend the beam out the front at the right angle. A bit of light goes directly down for spill... The main driver for this idea is the frontal area fo cooling. Dunno how hot these things will get but people will drive them at 1A(remember XR-E were spec'd at only 700mA when released) so 29W is possible only if you keep things cool.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    You could just machine in the led mounts at different angles
    Just re read your post and sat looking at the mk 2 and yes you sometimes miss things even when it is so obvious Ta .

    the angle I have tested with the light I built stolen from this thread
    Easy DIY
    it was perfect for this test ,flat based and a twin setup with a smooth spot and a wide optic
    and dead level when just sat on the bike was perfect for me .

    when you are braking for a techy bit the front dives and so lightsup said techy bit more
    and when climbing the front is a bit lighter so throws a bit further up the trail .

    Looking at your idea your even dafter than me

    But I can see where you are coming from with it it would be an easy way for a proper dipping solution with a quick flick of a lever that moves the mirror to dip the beam

    I dont think your smart driver is on the horizon just yet .

    this has been a fun thread I hope there is more to come

    see you in the madhouse soon .

  65. #65
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    Znomit

    I'm speechless.



    But I'm thinking.

  66. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Looking at your idea your even dafter than me

    But I can see where you are coming from with it it would be an easy way for a proper dipping solution with a quick flick of a lever that moves the mirror to dip the beam

    I dont think your smart driver is on the horizon just yet .
    Haha, thanks for the complement.
    Yes it would be a bloody hard DIY build. No I don't think moving the mirror on the bike is a good idea, should be locked in place once the angle is set(idea came partly from the lasers at work and partly from my telescope building days).
    Yeah driver is a pipe dream, maybe we should start harrasing George at taskled now.

  67. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Yeah driver is a pipe dream, maybe we should start harrasing George at taskled now.
    I have already asked George here http://taskled.com/forum/index.php?topic=152.0
    The inscrutable one has no plans yet

    I do expect that Wayne at the sandwiche shoppe will have plans for a driver for the mce

    but why not everybody ask george for a multi output driver for the MC-E and the likes of
    maybe he needs a challenge

  68. #68
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    ..... lol, i could see Georges answer as soon as i read your post ....
    wired series with a CC5W driver .... sorted!

    i find my lights are either on or off, no need for a bFlex imho

  69. #69
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    This has been an interesting weekend I learnt lots on machining and designing stuff
    now this light has been a good exercise for me if anyone wants to have it to finish it off and make a cracking light then it is yours for 20 plus posting which will be what ever it costs me and from past mailings of similarr things it is approx 1.75 in the UK
    dont know about abroad but will find out.

    as it was designed for my hope stem here are the dimentions

    bolt hole centres across = 35 mm
    bolt hole centres up n down =37 mm
    made for oversize bars = 31.5 ish mm diameter
    sockets for optics 20mm dia but may need opening out for optic holder
    socket depth 15 mm but there is room to go deeper to 20 mm
    width across 46 mm

    I have not done anything to fix the angle of the swivel head so it can be set to where ever you want it.


    the reason for sale is it has given me even more daft ideas on a similar vein so I am going to do a mk 3 for myself over the next few weeks

    I did offer it to Dweeby for free because it was his original idea but it was wrong for his stem and he did not want to change stems , so he opted to have the block of ali to make his own so expect some piccys from him soon .


    Thanks to everyone for the advise and comments


    Troutie

  70. #70
    dweeby
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    znomit,
    Every time I look at your drawing I think SLR camera in reverse.
    So a lense on the front to focus the light might work. It would be one hard thing to make though.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  71. #71
    dweeby
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    Just another thought after troutie and his bolt problem.

    One piece, and you can still get to the bolts. A spot at the top and a wide at the bottom.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by dweeby; 07-08-2008 at 12:24 PM.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    znomit,
    Every time I look at your drawing I think SLR camera in reverse.
    So a lense on the front to focus the light might work. It would be one hard thing to make though.
    No optics go directly on the LED before the mirror. An eliptical mirror from a telescope would be perfect.... just machine the cylinderical hole and slide in LED/optic/mirror.

    Grab one of your lights and put it on a mirror at 45 degrees. See?

  73. #73
    dweeby
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    Ahh I understand now.
    Never thought of a curved mirror. A bit like the way night club/disco lights work these days?
    That could be quite a neat compact unit.

  74. #74
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    The mark 3 takes shape , it needs a name now

    OK I have been back in the workshop and this is hopefully my new light as long as I dont screw it up in the finishing.

    Apologies to Dweeby for the blatent copy of his idea

    But hopefully the lump of ali he recieved today will make up for the theft.

    I have photoed them side by side for camparison.








  75. #75
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    How On Earth

    Troutie
    How on Earth did you do that in a day?

    I'm glad you liked my idea so much but thats just not right, a day? one sodding little day....and it's better than the one I made out of wood.
    It will take me that long to drill a sodding bloody hole and it will probably be wonky

    Now be very proud of your skills and stop messing with bike bits and go and earn millions at NASA.

    So a great big and thanks for the paper wieght that you sent me .

  76. #76
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    well done Mr Trout

    that is one seriously impressive piece of handcrafted shiny metal .....



    heaven only knows what you could achieve with a good machine shop

  77. #77
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    understatement

    Quote Originally Posted by HEY HEY ITS HENDO
    well done Mr Trout

    that is one seriously impressive piece of handcrafted shiny metal .....

    heaven only knows what you could achieve with a good machine shop
    No kidding. I think he might need a Thomson stem so he can make a extra mark IV or V.
    Slow-core. -.. .-. .. -. -.- .... --- -- . -... .-. . .--

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    Troutie
    How on Earth did you do that in a day?

    I'm glad you liked my idea so much but thats just not right, a day? one sodding little day....and it's better than the one I made out of wood.
    It will take me that long to drill a sodding bloody hole and it will probably be wonky

    Now be very proud of your skills and stop messing with bike bits and go and earn millions at NASA.

    So a great big and thanks for the paper wieght that you sent me .
    I started it sunday evening and have spent 7 hours with most of the work done with a hacksaw and files , with the final shaping and smoothing with a very cheap belt sander from B&Q.
    The optic holes are the hardest bit and a drill press is recomended I inherited a cheap one from my dad in law along with a bix box of drill bits

    I ground a 20 mm drill bit flat and sharpened it then drilled ever bigger holes until it would fit in then carefully flattened the hole with the modded bit.

    Abit of a problem there is the base of the hole is not flat more convex so that is going to be hard grinding it out and smoothing it

    next step is to get a very fine grit belt for the sander and get it ready for a good dremeling to finish


    Ref the paper weight can you weigh it acuratley before you start cutting for me .

    Ta for the comments working with my hands and tools is the only thing I am good at
    cannot design for toffee.

    and it has taken me 3 attempts to get one I am happy with . the good news is I am still on the original hack saw blade which was new when I started the mk1

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by notaknob
    No kidding. I think he might need a Thomson stem so he can make a extra mark IV or V.
    Cheers bruce I wonder who has a thompson stem ???

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by HEY HEY ITS HENDO
    well done Mr Trout

    that is one seriously impressive piece of handcrafted shiny metal .....



    heaven only knows what you could achieve with a good machine shop

    I only hope it does work and use the bars for heat removal as 8 cree emitters in this small a space may have some serious heat , This is why I really wanted a one piece design
    and was not happy with the swivel mk2 although I like the look of the mk2 it does weigh a lot more than the mk3

  81. #81
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    OK... this is an alignment thingee for my telescope but demonstrates my nutty idea well.


    Hollow tube with a hole in the side.


    Oval mirror inside the hole set at 45 degrees, shouldn't have a hole in the middle!
    Thats an aaa torch from kai to get an idea of scale...


    Poke the torch in and look in the hole.


    What the beam looks like. Its a bit messed from the hole in the middle of the mirror and a lip in the tube, but you get the idea. Normal throw but spill(that missed the mirror) directly in front.

  82. #82
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    Very interesting concept ,

    so have I got this right no optic bare cree single or MCe ,
    how far from the mirror

    is the mirror flat or shaped

    I think there may be lots of lumins hitting the walls of the tube so would that need to be very shiny to bounce it out the hole

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Very interesting concept ,

    so have I got this right no optic bare cree single or MCe ,
    how far from the mirror

    is the mirror flat or shaped
    I think there may be lots of lumins hitting the walls of the tube so would that need to be very shiny to bounce it out the hole
    Optic as normal, pushed up to mirror... flat mirror. Mirror big enough to catch all the light off the optic...
    Its not ideal because you have mirror losses 10%. But you can do a stealthy light that doesn't poke out.

  84. #84
    dweeby
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    I'm sill amazed.
    I hope to start mine at the weekend, I want to do it in the garden but it won't stop raining. I bet when yours is finished it's not much more than double the weight of the face plate.

    The weight of the Ali before any cutting is 360gr/13oz.
    Can't wait to yours when it's finished.

  85. #85
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    polished and waiting for leds/optics

    Dweeby wait no longer

    I am well chuffed with it














    full size pics here
    http://pics-by-chris.fotoblog.org.uk/c1379760_73.html


    I have not done anything with the front because the holes for optics are too deep so the front will need filing shorter ,
    I do not know what the depth of the optic / holder / led pcb will be .

    I might get the leds and optics ordered soon and get in the que at cutters I am not sure which optics to go for yet

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    Heat transfer advice

    Hi Guys - just a piece of advice from the alloy yacht spars experience NOT to use any paste that contains zinc or copper to meld this to your bars - both these metals will set up a galvanic cell with the aluminium and corrode the heat transfer surfaces and may cause your bars to snap.
    The only metals you can use are alumimium (and the aluminium oxide pastes like Ceramique), stainless steel, and silver. The latter I'm not fully sure of because it is uncommon in yacht spars!!.

    It may also be worth considering using aluminium foil in the gap as this will compress/deform to give quite a good heat transfer surface too.

    As for heat transfer to the air, the surface area is the biggest factor, so all these smooth profiles are reducing the area, and also, matt black is the the best at both absorbing and radiating heat so polished alloy is less effective. Thats why almost every commercial heatsink you see is matt black!

    This idea of heat transfer to the bars is great but the heat "loss" to air is all about surface area. Thermal mass of metal is just to quickly absorb initial heat generated as waste by the high current through the LED. We want not just to keep the led from burning out, but they give out more light if temp kept at 25C or so.

    Most designs so far have had circumferential fins as theses are easy to turn on a lathe. Fins aligned front to back with airflow direction will be much better, and, as the heat is carried away by air rising when stationary, fins on top will be very slightly more effective than underneath - but potentially nastier in a body-contact incident. They can be round corrugations style as it is area that counts not sharpness. Even small fins are a huge increase in surface area though, so not much will be needed. Someone in one thread (I looked back - it was dweeby in another thread) did one of these from cut up bits of heat sink, and others have looked at the heatsinks used for model helicopter motors - both are in the better direction. There are also some small heatsinks used in things like SMPS which look like being user firendly.

    Best heat-loss design then would be radial fins and matt black anodising.
    Last edited by fre3ud; 07-10-2008 at 03:08 AM.

  87. #87
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    Fre3ud
    Thanks for pointing out the danger of galvanic corrosion and it is something I had not thought about.

    also I take your point about fins and surface texture and have built various lights with fins that keep cold on the bike or the helmet and I may paint it mat black in the future .

    I have tested the heat transfer to the bars with my existing lights which didnot need the additional heatsinking and a very narrow clamp area and it does work quite well even in still air.
    This light in comparison ok has not got the finning of the others but does have a massive surface area in contact with the bars which then increases the surface to air and also has a good surface area to air in the light body , from my experience with other lights I am 75% happy that they will not overheat and will be controling them with dimmable bflex drivers

    as non of us yet know how the MC E will perform I am sure that even at low power they will still be a cracking light . it is also in a good position to monitor the heat

    It is a gamble that I take but ( NO RISK NO FUN ) and I will be reporting back here wether it is a cracking success or a dismal failure

    cheers Trout

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by fre3ud

    Most designs so far have had circumferential fins as theses are easy to turn on a lathe. Fins aligned front to back with airflow direction will be much better, and, as the heat is carried away by air rising when stationary, fins on top will be very slightly more effective than underneath - but potentially nastier in a body-contact incident. They can be round corrugations style as it is area that counts not sharpness.

    Best heat-loss design then would be radial fins and matt black anodising.
    In general that was quite a good post, but i do have to disagree with you about proper fin orientation. The worst case thermal condition is still air. Design to that. Any air flow (riding) will quickly cool the light enough that finning designed for still air will be more than adequate. Radial finning made on a lathe is quite reasonable for bike lights, although some other fin orientations are probably superior. Of course, if you never stop for more than a couple minutes, make the light as small as you feel like you can get away with.

    Basically, if your light is only warm to the touch after about 15 minutes of sitting on the bench (you can hold your finger to it for ~10 seconds without it hurting), you are doing fine thermally. This assumes you have a quality heat path within the light (LED to outside world) and what you are touching is aluminum.

    Some very cool ideas in this thread, btw.

  89. #89
    dweeby
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    troutie I'm glad that you are chuffed with it, you should be.
    I got my wife to have a look at it and she thinks it's great and that takes some doing.
    I don't think mine will be quite as good but I will start it very soon.
    Nice to see the Dremel out, great little tool. The little ali reflectors have turned up and are better than I expected so I may use them.
    And do you know the weight ?

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF
    The worst case thermal condition is still air. Design to that. Any air flow (riding) will quickly cool the light enough that finning designed for still air will be more than adequate.
    This has been true so far. Lights with one power setting need to be designed for highest cooling when stationary.
    If you are using multiple power levels cooling was a non issue because at any speed where there is little airflow you need little light. Dunno if this is true with the MC-E as the power density is 3x.
    Ideally light levels would ramp smoothly off the speedo sensor and go from 50lm stopped to 1500lm at 40kph. This would mean all you would need to play with when riding is an on/off button.

    ps, troutie, that light is fantastic.

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by GMF
    Basically, if your light is only warm to the touch after about 15 minutes of sitting on the bench (you can hold your finger to it for ~10 seconds without it hurting), you are doing fine thermally. This assumes you have a quality heat path within the light (LED to outside world) and what you are touching is aluminum.
    15 minutes you could cook eggs on my quad cree R2 light after 5 minutes if I left it on that long on the bench and it trips the Bflex set at 60 degrees in 2 minutes




    , But with a small airflow from a little battery fan it only just gets warm,


    my take on this is if it heats up quickly and has a reasonable mass then it has a good thermal path to the outside as long as it cools fast with an suitable airflow

    I am going to use the MM E`s on stars for ease so should have a good path , would be better to use bare emitters direct to the light body .

    I still have the option of drilling small holes down the back of the leds which would get air flowing nearer the emitters , but that would really spoil the look of the light so would be a last resort
    as it is a tiny hole up from the bottom to behind the leds and I would be able to measure the heat close up .

    Quote Originally Posted by dweeby
    I don't think mine will be quite as good but I will start it very soon.
    Dont undersell yourself just take your time and be carefull you only have the one lump I had 3 attempts .

    weight not got any good scales but averaged between 40 / 60 grammes can that be right , have to visit post office and weigh it there.

    Quote Originally Posted by zmonit
    ps, troutie, that light is fantastic.
    Thanks Znomit thats cool from the MASTER OF MINIMAL

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    just done a costing

    I have just been working out what this project is going to cost me.

    2- cree MC E `s on stars @ $25.49 = $50.98
    2 optics @ $ 7.95 = $15.90
    postage from cutters $10.00
    ----------
    sub total $ 76.88
    2 - Bflex from taskled @ $30 = $ 60.00 I have the Bflex`s allready
    postage $ 10.00
    =======
    total $ 146.88 or 74.28 in uk money
    that leaves 25 for stuff like switches and conectors and stuff.

    so 100 or $200 for 1500 lumen ( possibly) light makes me

  93. #93
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    Power Supply

    So Troutie what are you using to power this beast?

    2 bFlex, are you going to run a driver for each light and if so powered in parrallel from the one source?

    I have three sets of lights already but this thread has me absolutely addicted again

  94. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    So Troutie what are you using to power this beast?

    2 bFlex, are you going to run a driver for each light and if so powered in parrallel from the one source?

    I have three sets of lights already but this thread has me absolutely addicted again
    one of these with an adaptor from the sandwichshoppe over at CPF



    I am planning to use the 2 Bflex one for each side they are going to live in side the stem
    and I then need a good small conector for the battery to plug it to this is going to be installed in the stem somewhere .

    I thing I should get 2.5 hours from the battery but the maths is not my strong point .
    maybe more as Znomit points out you dont need that many lumins often..

    but what is this need , it is want that matters

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    but what is this need , it is want that matters
    and who wins the pi$$ing contest at the "light off" competition with your mates

    I love it mate. You've made one of the slickest looking bar lights I have ever seen. Cut the weight down by using the stem to house the controllers and using the housing as the stem faceplate but then, "wait for it there's more", you whip out a 2nd hand 18v power tool battery to fire the beast up Thats gold

    But here is where I get confused. If the MC E needs 4 x 3.6v each plus 1 for the driver then each light needs 15.4volts. So how do you drive two from the one battery. Do you have to run the drivers in parrallel or series from the battery?

  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    Do you have to run the drivers in parrallel or series from the battery?
    Bflex has a "slave mode". You hook two together and they run synchronised off the same control switch and battery but drive different LED strings. Each MC-E gets its own bflex. Clever little device.

    Troutie, i think you've wasted a lot of time making that light pretty.
    Nobody is going to appreciate it, they'll all be rolling around screaming AAAARRRGH MY RETINAS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT

  97. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by emu26
    and who wins the pi$$ing contest at the "light off" competition with your mates

    I love it mate. You've made one of the slickest looking bar lights I have ever seen. Cut the weight down by using the stem to house the controllers and using the housing as the stem faceplate but then, "wait for it there's more", you whip out a 2nd hand 18v power tool battery to fire the beast up ?


    Muahha muahha Who wins the p1$$ing contest

    Why Me of course















































    Ha Ha they are not really all mine but I have built them all

    I did think of doing a beamshot but could not find anywhere dark enough

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Bflex has a "slave mode". You hook two together and they run synchronised off the same control switch and battery but drive different LED strings. Each MC-E gets its own bflex. Clever little device.

    Troutie, i think you've wasted a lot of time making that light pretty.
    Nobody is going to appreciate it, they'll all be rolling around screaming AAAARRRGH MY RETINAS HAVE BEEN BURNED OUT
    I have been thinking about slaving them , and was going to ask you which you think is best slave and one switch controls all , or 2 switchs and control each seperate.

    cheers Chris

  99. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    I have been thinking about slaving them , and was going to ask you which you think is best slave and one switch controls all , or 2 switchs and control each seperate.

    cheers Chris
    I would run them slaved. 2 switches is too complicated.

  100. #100
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    Great job guys,
    This is simply the coolest bike light design idea I've seen since I started looking here and at candlpowerforums. Awesome job. To bad I don't have the time money or skill to try to make one for my stem.

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