Results 1 to 34 of 34
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    296

    7 up XML, tell me what you want

    I mocked up U2 2B XML on our 10mm MCPCB and put under new 7 up Anna, very nice, so I can make a 40mm 7 up for these, but should I, give me some feedback
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  2. #2
    Drinkin' the 29er KoolAid
    Reputation: kwarwick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1,388
    Quote Originally Posted by WeLight
    I mocked up U2 2B XML on our 10mm MCPCB and put under new 7 up Anna, very nice, so I can make a 40mm 7 up for these, but should I, give me some feedback
    I guess the concern becomes the amount of heat such a board could generate at full burn. I'm almost thinking under driving would be the way to go... lots of light with high efficiency. Might be a nice upgrade for my Toutie 7up lights. Would the Polymer 7up optics work?

    I'd be up for at least one but only if populated with neutral white emitters.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by kwarwick
    I guess the concern becomes the amount of heat such a board could generate at full burn. I'm almost thinking under driving would be the way to go... lots of light with high efficiency. Might be a nice upgrade for my Toutie 7up lights. Would the Polymer 7up optics work?

    I'd be up for at least one but only if populated with neutral white emitters.
    Yes that will be the concern however I have ordered some Copper backed PCB for 16 x XML 10k lumen monster, we trialled it on a Pentium heatsink and works well. Will be more expensive PCB but will be more thermal warm and cuddly
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    98
    Heat from a 7up will be pretty extreme. I'd rather have a 3up copper MCPCB, much more manageable and should be able to get just as much light out (no way you cam drive a 7up at 3A).

    Any chance of a thicker-than-dx copper 1up MCPCB XM-L? Would love some in neutral white.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by jmblur
    Heat from a 7up will be pretty extreme. I'd rather have a 3up copper MCPCB, much more manageable and should be able to get just as much light out (no way you cam drive a 7up at 3A).

    Any chance of a thicker-than-dx copper 1up MCPCB XM-L? Would love some in neutral white.
    We can look at the copper star. The idea behind the 7 up would not be to run at 3A, its more about having the most efficient emitter running at the most effective output
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    98
    Quote Originally Posted by WeLight
    We can look at the copper star. The idea behind the 7 up would not be to run at 3A, its more about having the most efficient emitter running at the most effective output
    Yep, understood, for biking I'd rather have the smaller light head of a higher amp 3up, or even two 3ups running efficient currents than one 40mm 7up. Wide and flat easier to deal with for me than big and round.

    That said, I bet the flashlight guys would love it!

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    281
    Have you ever considered a 6 or 7up in a bar shape? All in one row...that'd make for some very easy housings.
    I WANT TO BUY YOUR MAGICSHINE LIGHTS! Working or not.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: znomit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,837
    Quote Originally Posted by BKruahnndon
    Have you ever considered a 6 or 7up in a bar shape? All in one row...that'd make for some very easy housings.
    Linear in a 2/3/4 option spaced to suit CXP optics(I guess regina too) with +/- clear of the optics holder. You could stack a 3 between two 2s for a 7up.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: troutie-mtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,060
    Quote Originally Posted by znomit
    Linear in a 2/3/4 option spaced to suit CXP optics(I guess regina too) with +/- clear of the optics holder. You could stack a 3 between two 2s for a 7up.



    Liking Znomits suggestion alot

    all 3 sizes are drivable to the max if needed and ledil are bound to make some xml friendly optics in the trusty square format

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Goldigger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,664
    What's the battery and driver solution for a 7up?
    Getting my bike lighter will be void with a monster battery strapped to it..

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: HuffyPuffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    890
    Are the 10mm MCPCB's for the xml for sale? I did not see them on your site, but would be interested in getting a few to play with. Seems a better option for modders who want to user smaller optics.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by HuffyPuffy
    Are the 10mm MCPCB's for the xml for sale? I did not see them on your site, but would be interested in getting a few to play with. Seems a better option for modders who want to user smaller optics.
    Yes in the leds on MCPCB section
    http://www.cutter.com.au/categories....CPCB:thumbsup:
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb
    Liking Znomits suggestion alot

    all 3 sizes are drivable to the max if needed and ledil are bound to make some xml friendly optics in the trusty square format
    To be honest I dont see Ledil releasing XML Optics in 20 Square, if they do I would expect them to wider angles. off course I am saying this hoping they will immediately prove me wrong by releasing some
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  14. #14
    Drinkin' the 29er KoolAid
    Reputation: kwarwick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1,388
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldigger
    What's the battery and driver solution for a 7up?
    Getting my bike lighter will be void with a monster battery strapped to it..
    Hmmm... that's a good question. I'm a big fan of Taskled drivers due to excellent design along with the great support provided by George.

    You could drive a 7up XML with a MaxFlex but then you'd be limited to under driving with 1330-1400ma. Not necessarily a bad thing as this would keep the heat manageable and the lower current would provide very good efficiency. Ideal battery would be 14.8v 4S lipo.

    For max current I was going to say H6Flex, but realized it wouldn't be appropriate because it can only drive a maximum 20 volts which unfortunately isn't enough for 7 XMLs in series.

    Maybe H6CC since it can push 24 volts but it is a fixed current device (set via trimpot) so not ideal... at least not for biking purposes.

    Anyone have other ideas?

    Karl

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    363
    size and space
    first thanks for the feedback.
    the 7up, 40mm be cute, but not flexible in terms of space.
    most available, 20mm star, and 20mm optics,
    as such, a 40mm is to small / specialized for my taste.
    no smaller than 50mm, probably 60mm+ be good.

    best, a 4-6up with 20-25mm spacing,
    as to mix single optics.
    otherwise, it be all or nothing, in terms of optics.

    Also waiting for the MTG to be available on a 20mm star , since that one ,
    can take more power, and has improved temp junction.
    Other thoughts, to have some flexibility with the wires.
    to run 7 x , you get to use boost drivers only.
    with a 2x 3x 6up, in 2 section, you could use 2x cheaper down drivers.
    I mean 7x leds, get expensive, + driver ,...
    lots of folks are exited, but when it boils down to cough up 500 bucks + sans battery and charger , you don't see to many bids.
    on that note, it might just be a nice option, to have the Xup
    to offer the same , in a 5up or 3up, I like in 2+, 2x 4up , 6up,
    cheaper, but also the drivers are a challenge.
    what do you think?

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: HuffyPuffy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    890
    I have my order in for some 3x XML 32mm boards and cute optics, but would like to go smaller. Has anyone tried the XML with the carclo 20mm triple optics? I'd really like to see some 20mm triple XML boards, but unless there are decent optics, whats the point.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    489
    Mark, how about 40mm 7up on copper base?

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,928
    Quote Originally Posted by HuffyPuffy
    I'd really like to see some 20mm triple XML boards, but unless there are decent optics, whats the point.
    Heck, I'd like to see decent 20mm triple optics for XPG let alone XML.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by HuffyPuffy
    I have my order in for some 3x XML 32mm boards and cute optics, but would like to go smaller...
    I thought they were going to have boards with LEDs mounted on them available. But all I see is boards. Am I incorrect?

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by rschultz101
    size and space
    first thanks for the feedback.
    the 7up, 40mm be cute, but not flexible in terms of space.
    most available, 20mm star, and 20mm optics,
    as such, a 40mm is to small / specialized for my taste.
    no smaller than 50mm, probably 60mm+ be good.

    best, a 4-6up with 20-25mm spacing,
    as to mix single optics.
    otherwise, it be all or nothing, in terms of optics.

    Also waiting for the MTG to be available on a 20mm star , since that one ,
    can take more power, and has improved temp junction.
    Other thoughts, to have some flexibility with the wires.
    to run 7 x , you get to use boost drivers only.
    with a 2x 3x 6up, in 2 section, you could use 2x cheaper down drivers.
    I mean 7x leds, get expensive, + driver ,...
    lots of folks are exited, but when it boils down to cough up 500 bucks + sans battery and charger , you don't see to many bids.
    on that note, it might just be a nice option, to have the Xup
    to offer the same , in a 5up or 3up, I like in 2+, 2x 4up , 6up,
    cheaper, but also the drivers are a challenge.
    what do you think?
    20mm MTG MCPCB will be here by weekend
    How about the 7up in 3 series strings to allow more voltage driver flexibility, colour mixing possibility ie have some neutral or warm with cold to mix white?
    The real issue as always is the tail wags the dog, the nice optics are what make the led effective
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by Toaster79
    Mark, how about 40mm 7up on copper base?
    thats what I would have these made in
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by rxbandit
    I thought they were going to have boards with LEDs mounted on them available. But all I see is boards. Am I incorrect?
    XML triple boards with leds can be found here
    http://www.cutter.com.au/products.ph...+on+32mm+MCPCB
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    489
    Quote Originally Posted by WeLight
    thats what I would have these made in
    Were you also thinking about direct thermal path between led and MCPCB? This would solve some serious heat issues when driving leds @+1.5A.

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by Toaster79
    Were you also thinking about direct thermal path between led and MCPCB? This would solve some serious heat issues when driving leds @+1.5A.
    Not sure about the cost ramifications, but since were throwing this to the floor why not
    Cheers
    Mark
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    363
    don't think this is possible with xml !?
    since any solder, would make it sit not flat,
    and also be a possible short hazard.
    only seen it with mce's , what was nice.
    for my guess, the XML at 1.5A is more than happy on a metal core board.
    once you get into the 3A,.... your housing is most likely the bottleneck.
    Anybody knows, where to order metal core pcbs, + LED assembly ,
    for proto's ,small order? thanks.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    489
    I wouldn't mind paying extra 10 or 15 AUD per board when it gives me freedom of driving the leds at full blast with proper heatsink.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    296
    Quote Originally Posted by rschultz101
    don't think this is possible with xml !?
    since any solder, would make it sit not flat,
    and also be a possible short hazard.
    only seen it with mce's , what was nice.
    for my guess, the XML at 1.5A is more than happy on a metal core board.
    once you get into the 3A,.... your housing is most likely the bottleneck.
    Anybody knows, where to order metal core pcbs, + LED assembly ,
    for proto's ,small order? thanks.
    Not sure I understand what you mean by solder would not make it sit flat. I am guessing we would need to remove the prepreg isolation directly under the thermal pad. shorting however could be an issue

    Need PCB + Leds, yes try us
    Cheers
    WeLight

    Cutter Electronics Pty Ltd www.cutter.com.au

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    281
    Maybe it's just me, and this is just my opinion so feel free to discuss...Do we put too much concern into heat with LEDs? Yes, they do work better and last longer when the temp is kept lowest, but I don't plan on using ANY light for it's 50,000(or whatever) lifetime.
    We have seen minimalistic housings using square tube that seem to do just fine. I would like to see a test rig with a 7up (or any light for that matter) running at max power for a period of time just to see if it fails. Purely for education to us to push the limits.

    Side note: I'd like to see a driver to match at max current as well. Do we have any options?
    I WANT TO BUY YOUR MAGICSHINE LIGHTS! Working or not.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: troutie-mtb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    3,060
    I am not too sure a seven up XML would be a big seller in the bike light world IMHO

    The XPE/G made the 7UP work fairly well and with an output up there around 2000 lumens was a good compromise between size / battery consumption .

    we know the XML doesnt throw as well as the smaller leds so the seven up in the tightest optic will still flood the near ground but leave the far in darkness though sheer power may throw some lumens a bit farther down range

    for me the beauty of the xml is the fact we can use less leds for a light up there around the sweet spot of 2000 ish lumens any lumens over that seems to be a waste of time and power if we cant make them go further down the trail with better optics . and I say optics because I dont like the sharp cutoff of the reflectors even though they do chuck the lumens a bit better.

    4 XMLS is the most I would think of using in a bike light and remain at a usable size to shed the heat .

    BKruahnndon
    in what way do you want to see a light fail ? just keep letting it get hotter until it goes out
    I can do that as have a load of old leds could put one on a bit of ally and video it to destruction with a temp gauge in side the heatsink .


    .

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    125
    Interested to know if Anna (or Polymer Optics 7up) is a better optic than the Khatod, an appreciable improvement in throw would be good.

    Can't help but think that a 7up XM-L is going to be too floody, but maybe you can show us otherwise, would love to see some pix and beamshots of your mock-up!

    Never thought the day would come when Troutie says 'thats enough light'. Wonders will never cease....

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    125
    WeLight, If you decide to stock Anna 7up, let us know!

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    9
    Just wish cutter would send me my 3up xm-l board & order. They seem to be on backorder for over a month. Anyone else receive theirs?

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    363
    feedback and connector.
    for the 32mm with 4 xmls, looks clean,
    and I like the idea of a connector on back side,
    to make it more serviceable, but also to have it clean of the solder and cables,
    where the optics gonna go. definitely the right direction.
    no for the small 10mm, 14mm,,, etc,
    the XML , already sits very flat, much lower than the mce, as such,
    getting the wires soldered, and right next to the optics,
    the optics, won't have enough room, to sit flat,
    what is critical for the performance. so for the small, one, you'd end up, cutting into optics or reflector, and reflector is conductive, so possible short, do not like the small one at all.
    now for 7up, would like a 2x3 = 6up better, if there was some room, for optics,
    like having high / low beam.
    otherwise, I'd want to stick to 20mm, even those need 22mm for optics,
    the better ones start at 24-26mm, and by 35mm+, you actually have some room for some decent optics. so a 7up, all or nothing, all 7 with One flavor of beam angle, is not the most appealing / flexible for me on the long run.
    for the 20mm, would like the option of having a 2-pin connector pad on side, since it can't be in the middle, to leave more room to get the optics, flat down, to the led.
    For copper:
    of course, it be nice, but price drives the market.
    do think it has some value, especially, where it is constrained.
    like driving the 20mm , over 2.4A, be a benefit .
    or for the high end one, if you pay already for 7 LED and have to mount it in a bigger housing, the 5-6 bucks, won't hurt as much.
    copper spacer:
    now here is a real value, and this be important.
    if you have an P7 or MCE , what sits higher, and you replace it with an xml,
    the optics, are now floating above, and you can't reuse the exiting reflector, or optics.
    it be great, to have some 20mm copper , or even alu, star discs, as a spacer, to be able , to do a upgrade. copper is expensive, and I don't have a CNC, otherwise would have done it already. anybody with a CNC, mill, router table, give me a buzz, no we won't cut some coins, but will look like it.
    for the heat, with more juice, there be more heat, watts is watts, for most parts, it's 99% heat , so housings need to be bigger, better thermal, more cooling,...
    brings me to the next,... at least for the big boy 7up, to have provisions, for a thermal sensor. smd big, 1210, easier to solder, ... there is not enough room for the 20mm.
    oh, comments, so what's so nice about a 7up ? ever seen 7 leds, wired up ?
    a single pcb , looks much cleaner . anybody wants a housing , give me a buzz, ready or DIY kit.
    cheers, Rob mtbl.robs-x

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: yetibetty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,781
    Quote Originally Posted by BKruahnndon
    Maybe it's just me, and this is just my opinion so feel free to discuss...Do we put too much concern into heat with LEDs? Yes, they do work better and last longer when the temp is kept lowest, but I don't plan on using ANY light for it's 50,000(or whatever) lifetime.
    We have seen minimalistic housings using square tube that seem to do just fine. I would like to see a test rig with a 7up (or any light for that matter) running at max power for a period of time just to see if it fails. Purely for education to us to push the limits.

    Side note: I'd like to see a driver to match at max current as well. Do we have any options?
    I have done tests just to see what happens.

    LEDs will just fade and fade if overheated.
    In other words each time you turn the light on it will have less light and the once 1100 lumen light is now 500 lumen. The tint may have changed a bit too...... but hey it still works and may fade and fade for many years.

    Keep 'em cool.

    I'm with Troutie on the 7up XM-L and see it as a bit pointless for a bike light.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •