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  1. #1
    Double-metric mtb man
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    21 XLM's....overkill or no

    A fellow DIYer on another board posted a link to a 7 XLM'S board that he indicated "2 on the bars and 1 on the helmet should do nicely." Doing the math, driven at 3A, that's a nominal 6,300 Lm per light x 3 lights....say 19,000 Lm.

    I'm thinking that'd be serious overkill....as in whiting out trail details and hurting the night vision for anything on the perhipery of the field of light, etc.

    Sure, it would be a great DIY exercise, but does anyone here think such a set-up would be practical for actual field use on a bike?
    As if four times wasn't enough-> Psycho Mike's 2013 Ride to Conquer Cancer Page

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  2. #2
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    Hi Mike
    not seen you around here for a while .

    very overkill imho and what sized powerpack will he be lugging around .

    from the days when I did the stupid bright lights I did an experiment adding lights to see how much was too much and my findings were about 3000 lumens on the bars and the same on the head was well overkill but usable any more was not adding to the usable trail light at all

    Maybe suggest to the poster that he would be better with less leds and better optics instead of the Nuke em approach

    have you a link to said board for us to peruse

  3. #3
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    I'd say overkill..maybe 19 max

    But I'd like to see the crazy light 21 xm-l's put out..

    Chris can you do a beam shot of 7 dominators all @ 3 amps please
    Actually let me know what time later when's its dark and ill look north for a second moon

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldigger View Post
    I'd say overkill..maybe 19 max

    But I'd like to see the crazy light 21 xm-l's put out..

    Chris can you do a beam shot of 7 dominators all @ 3 amps please
    Actually let me know what time later when's its dark and ill look north for a second moon
    see this post

    dont now know how many lumens


  5. #5
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    it's not just the weight of the battery that would be of concern but the housing surface area (and weight) needed to cool the lights. I can't imagine having a light large enough to cool 7 XM-Ls even at 1.5A on my helmet, although I guess I'd get a ruggerbugger's neck as a plus

    Of the few truly monster lights I've seen on here, only one or two have a decent and useful beam. Most of them are just masses of unfocussed flood, which would probably be harder to ride with (due to night vision being shot and not enough throw) than a smaller light with better optics. Still, it's always fun to see what people come up with!

  6. #6
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    with more light I think you would just need to aim it our further. I run about 4000 lumens on my dirt bike with combo of bar and helmet lights and I could use more. A little different than a mtb bike but at 60 mph I wish I could see farther ahead than my 4000 lumens will throw. With more lumens I would just expect that you can see farther down the trail. How much is overkill will depend on the rider and there intended use.

  7. #7
    Double-metric mtb man
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    Ok...looks like the potential for 20,000 lm is there, but upon seeing this thread, the poster on the other forum feels I was being dishonest in my description. He's thinking of using a lower current for less heat and more efficiency (he hasn't stated what that proposed current is or his anticipated light output...the 20,000 lm potential output is the only actual number he posted). Still, 21 XM-L's seems like overkill for a mtb light setup.

    His current set-up is 7 XM-L's: 2 @ 3.05A, 4@2.5A: he figures it's ~6300 lm output.

    Myself, I'd say event that 6300 lm is probably overkill. My little XR-E home-brew triple pushing 1A (bFlex) is good for a nominal 825 Lm...when added to my old 15W halogen I use as a helmet light, I'm probably sitting somewhere in the order of ~1100 Lm total and that's a pretty decent amount of light for trail riding to 25km/h (IMHO, depending on optics). 6000+ lm is a lot of light....I'd be afraid of whiting out details on trail or losing the night-vision outside the beam area.

    What are people's thoughts? Where is the "Sweet spot" and is 6000+ lm (think light in the order of 3x16* Lupine Betty lights) overkill for a mountain bike light set-up?
    As if four times wasn't enough-> Psycho Mike's 2013 Ride to Conquer Cancer Page

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  8. #8
    Double-metric mtb man
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb View Post
    Hi Mike
    not seen you around here for a while .
    Yeah, been fairly content with the D-Star Altair chassis I built up with Cree XR-E's and the not-dead-yet 15W halogen, so I haven't dropped by this forum a lot in the last while. When the halogen dies, I'll be here a bit more...to see about moving the D-Star to the helmet and build something "new" up for the bars
    As if four times wasn't enough-> Psycho Mike's 2013 Ride to Conquer Cancer Page

    Moran? Let your opinion be free -> F88me

  9. #9
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    I like my 2 XM-L@3A (bar) and 2 XM-L@1.5A (helmet) a lot, though I mostly run the bar light @~1.9A to match the helmet light better. Wouldn't mind running the helmet light @2A, but it's not really necessary and would need need a driver change.

    So, ~3000 theoretical lumens, good 2:1 bar:helmet ratio and almost the perfect beam pattern for me (although I'm still fiddling with the helmet optics). I haven't out run it yet, although my speeds rarely exceed 20mph if that.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattthemuppet View Post
    it's not just the weight of the battery that would be of concern but the housing surface area (and weight) needed to cool the lights. I can't imagine having a light large enough to cool 7 XM-Ls even at 1.5A on my helmet, although I guess I'd get a ruggerbugger's neck as a plus
    The housing doesn't need to be very big, when driven at 1.35A. You can buy a hole DIY-kit with board there.


    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb View Post
    have you a link to said board for us to peruse
    And a second, different board here (U2 binned).

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrradlos View Post
    The housing doesn't need to be very big, when driven at 1.35A. You can buy a hole DIY-kit with board there.




    And a second, different board here (U2 binned).
    consensus on this thread suggests that the 7up optic in your link is pretty inefficient with xm-l's..
    35mm 7up XML board!

    Can you provide a beam shot please if possible?

    That kit in your link says xm-l, but the PCB looks like xpg's?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrradlos View Post
    The housing doesn't need to be very big, when driven at 1.35A. You can buy a hole DIY-kit with board there.




    And a second, different board here (U2 binned).
    true, but I still wouldn't want it on my head That'll be ~30W, give or take, so equivalent to a 3up XM-L @3A, although slightly more efficient and probably the highest drive current you'll get out of a boost driver.

    It just seems and expensive and awkward way to arrive at the same point - I'd rather have a smaller light with better optics and a smaller battery.

  13. #13
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    the trolls were *****ing about the number of lumens my lights projected (somebody purchased a single budget Chinese XLM spot light placed on the handlebars, so that is the standard of quality we must not cross), so I advanced a hypothetical that ain't that far off, since using leds at low current provides more lumens per watt at lower heat

    the Betty already uses a number of XMLs within the 7up array and provides spot, med and wide angle versions

    judging by the year by year progression, someone shouldn't make their previous year's build as the standard, since bike lights are continually evolving

    when you were freeking out at 200 lumens in years past


    don't say it's not a posibility, it's already here

    wide and med on handlebars


    helmet spot
    Last edited by oreophilus; 01-26-2012 at 11:56 AM.
    .

  14. #14
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    each to their own, although just because something is possible, doesn't mean that it's desirable

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattthemuppet View Post
    each to their own, although just because something is possible, doesn't mean that it's desirable
    the only undesireable thing about a Betty is the price

    they've got the leds-optics-driver-housing-battery-charger pretty much perfected

    many XMLs (XP-Gs) driven at low current gives the most lumens per watt and lowest heat
    .

  16. #16
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    hmm, this is turning into a Lights and Nightriding Forums "my opinion is better than your opinion" slanging match, rather than the usual friendly helpful atmosphere conducive to making DIY lights. Lets keep it focused on the DIY aspect, ok?

  17. #17
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    I'm curious as to which optics are in the betty 12, looks like they thought the khatod and polymer 7up optic wasn't up to the job..
    Is that an led in the middle?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldigger View Post
    I'm curious as to which optics are in the betty 12, looks like they thought the khatod and polymer 7up optic wasn't up to the job..
    Is that an led in the middle?
    from their website
    LENS SYSTEM



    Perfectly matched

    We use an optical system specifically developed by Lupine instead of off-the-shelf components in Betty, as this is the only way of ensuring a perfect match with the LEDs used. We are constantly developing new solutions with the famous OEC development centre headed by Dr. Timinger, as well as UPT Optik.

    Perfect light bundling

    The high-efficiency thin-layer LEDs that we use scatter light across a wide and uncontrolled area; only the lenses we have developed are able to direct the light all of it to where you need it. To ensure optimum lighting both near and far, Betty uses several individual lenses arranged in a perfectly matched system.


    Minimum loss

    We have cut loss down to a minimum by using high-precision plastic optics in high-purity polycarbonate; our optics are manufactured in a precision injection moulding process that is accurate down to a few micrometres, less than a tenth of hair thickness. Our lenses and reflectors have set the standard for most other manufacturers.
    .

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by oreophilus View Post
    the only undesireable thing about a Betty is the price
    Not for everyone. The big round form factor does not work for me.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutie-mtb View Post
    see this post

    dont now know how many lumens

    Troutie,

    It looks like the moth (or some other insect) we see above the main hot spot and slightly to the left is actually smoking. Hmmm ... I wonder if there is a market for a 7 XM-L mosquito fryer :-)?

    With 21 XM-L's you might be on the verge of a death-star style planet destroying beam. I could have used one of those when a nice inattentive grandma in an old Lincoln nearly kneecapped me today. Oh, it wouldn't have been right, but it would have felt good for a little bit.

    Mark
    Nimium est melior!

  21. #21
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldigger View Post
    consensus on this thread suggests that the 7up optic in your link is pretty inefficient with xm-l's..
    35mm 7up XML board!

    Can you provide a beam shot please if possible?

    That kit in your link says xm-l, but the PCB looks like xpg's?
    I don't own any of this lights, but you get beamshots here and here. Throw seems to be surprisingly well...

    They also have a xpg and xre 6 up DIY-light, but the one named "RA-7XML " uses the Cree XM-L.

  22. #22
    izi
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    this is the 22 optics you are looking at with the 7x-XP-g led's,...
    it use to be 16 optics until riders start to complain that the beam is too narrow, so they solve this problem with centre led,...

    Lupine developed their own optics,...

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by izi View Post
    this is the 22 optics you are looking at with the 7x-XP-g led's,...
    it use to be 16 optics until riders start to complain that the beam is too narrow, so they solve this problem with centre led,...

    Lupine developed their own optics,...
    And the prices Lupine charge I guess they can afford too.
    for those prices I would want it hand delivered by a luscious concubine and a years supply of German beer

  24. #24
    izi
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    troutie,...
    hehehehe,...

    not everyone are able to DIY a good MTB light,...

    I am developing my for a long time and at the end I just buy some used Lupine Betty optics with 7x XP-G leds, put it in my custom housing, MaxFlex,... the rest is well known to you,...

    Cheers,
    Iztok

  25. #25
    Homer
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    Does anybody know who fabricates the Lupine optics?

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