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  1. #1
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    shorter travel bike - tag teaming with the chili

    Im looking for a shorter travel bike to sit alongside my Knolly Chilcotin, for mellow or marathon days when the Chili just isnt needed.

    Im considering buying a 650b endo on release but there is alot of competition in the endos category, much more so than i found in the Chili's category (basically because the Chili could be built up bigger, i.e. the competition was less tough).

    In my eyes the contenders are:

    Banshee Spitfire 650b
    Intense Carbine SL
    Transition Bandit
    Lapierre X-Flow
    Lynskey Pro 650b
    Mondraker Foxy
    Norco Sight 650b
    Rocky Mountain Altitude
    Turner 5spot
    Turner Burner 650b
    ..or..
    Knolly Endorphin 650b

    Which bike would you pick and why?

  2. #2
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    Why not go 29r if you are using it for marathon. Turner Czar is on my short list to fill the exact same niche next year when I retire my old 26" Turner Burner.
    "Lightweight , durable , inexpensive
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeLust View Post
    Why not go 29r if you are using it for marathon. Turner Czar is on my short list to fill the exact same niche next year when I retire my old 26" Turner Burner.
    I wont buy a 29er, its not me bud. I came from BMX years ago and still think 26ers are a tad too big If it was upto me the next wheel standard would be 25inch.

    I think ideally, it will be a 130-140mm travel bike with 650b wheels....probably not a 150 forks bike as that would be closing in on the Chilcotin too much...maybe..

  4. #4
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    I understand not wanting big wheels, so why go to 650b? why not get a 26" xc bike then?
    "Lightweight , durable , inexpensive
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeLust View Post
    I understand not wanting big wheels, so why go to 650b? why not get a 26" xc bike then?
    Well 650b with smaller volume tyres will have the same traction as a 26inch bike with high volumne tyres...they are almost the same, hardly be able to tell the difference.

    29ers and XC bikes are just not my thing.

    Im looking for a tough trail bike.

  6. #6
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    hm tough choice there, if it was me i would be asking what manufacturer will support thier product, of the few you mentioned there, there are a few frames that are well known for snapping / cracking. of the frames you list knolly turner and transition are well known for looking after their customers, i would be looking at the endo. ha ha but then im biased towards that as i am building one at the mo, ( be it a 26 not 650b)

  7. #7
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    I think a 26" Endo would compliment your Chilcotin best. Should you ever need them the parts could transfer over to either bike. And who doesn't like spare parts?
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirian View Post
    hm tough choice there, if it was me i would be asking what manufacturer will support thier product, of the few you mentioned there, there are a few frames that are well known for snapping / cracking. of the frames you list knolly turner and transition are well known for looking after their customers, i would be looking at the endo. ha ha but then im biased towards that as i am building one at the mo, ( be it a 26 not 650b)
    i havent ruled out the 26' endo either, should have said that.

    Last time i went round the block, i picked the chili first, only to carry on researching for 3 more months before i had eliminated all the competition and landed back at the chilcotin. Should have trusted my instincts

    If i was to take a guess at where i might end up this time, id say the Endorphin (built with 140mm Bos devilles) or the Rocky Mountain Altitude (130mm 650b). Then the Chili could get converted from its 160 air set up, to 170 marz 55s with ccdb coil...oh aye!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calhoun View Post
    I think a 26" Endo would compliment your Chilcotin best. Should you ever need them the parts could transfer over to either bike. And who doesn't like spare parts?
    Thats a very interesting point and i hadnt realised this...are you saying the linkages bolts bushes and bearings are the same on both bikes!??

  10. #10
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    650B front wheel on an endo, no waiting. The Burner will just slow you way, way, down, since you're able to pilot the Chilcotin without complaining.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    650B front wheel on an endo, no waiting. The Burner will just slow you way, way, down, since you're able to pilot the Chilcotin without complaining.
    Thats another very interesting point.

  12. #12
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    Also considering this same scenario and wondering what to do. The other thing to consider is that who knows when (if?) the 650b Endorphin will be available. Wouldn't surprise me if it were a year (or more) before you could take delivery of one.

    So, if you're thinking about something for this year I'd look at the Norco Sight 650b and the RM Altitude (maybe the Scott Genius too) if you're thinking 27.5

    Something like a Blur TRc, Mojo SL, Covert Carbon, Pivot Mach 5.7 Carbon, or Yeti ASR-5 would fit the bill if you decide to go 26" (in addition to the Endo, of course).

    I haven't ruled out 29er (and I'm pretty sure I'm not gay ) so I also have the Czar, Banshee Prime, Cannodale Trigger, Ibis Ripley, or even a Giant Anthem 29er (which comes in a $9000 carbon front triangle "O" version now) on my list to fill in that fast, buff to tough trail slayer niche.
    Last edited by KRob; 05-01-2013 at 02:40 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Endo 26er if you like to have fun Seriously though the Endo 26 is a serious ripper, and is more than capable than you would think. I love having both an Endo and Chili. I never debate which bike I would ride, they are very different animals.
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    they are very different animals.
    More than a few people have told me this exact thing when I've inquired.....
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchcr View Post
    Thats a very interesting point and i hadnt realised this...are you saying the linkages bolts bushes and bearings are the same on both bikes!??
    not sure about all the piece parts being transferable. mostly speaking to wheels crossing over if needed, also the shock is the same size...
    "Mi amor Nuevo Miércoles!"

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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Endo 26er if you like to have fun ... they are very different animals.
    Fun is the desired effect

    Now i have a Chili and know what its like to ride can you describe what the difference is between the Endo and Chili to help me get a feel for the Endo experience? Or is there a post where the similarities/differences have been explained well?

    Also has anyone rode the Endo with 140 forks? Is it better with 150 or 160 forks?

  17. #17
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  18. #18
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    Yeah, skip the 650b. If you said you came from an XC background and wanted to wear lycra and climb I'd say do it but if you want to throw the bike around and have fun go with the 26" endo. That's what I'm doing!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    Yeah, skip the 650b. If you said you came from an XC background and wanted to wear lycra and climb I'd say do it but if you want to throw the bike around and have fun go with the 26" endo. That's what I'm doing!
    Wait, you're getting an Endo too?
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Wait, you're getting an Endo too?
    Who isn't?
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  21. #21
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    Turner, Knolly, or a Stumpjumper (my favorites).

  22. #22
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    Also has anyone rode the Endo with 140 forks? Is it better with 150 or 160 forks?[/QUOTE]

    I started with a zero stack headset and a 140 Fox fork and thought it felt like a fork with travel adjust and stuck in the lowered position. I have since gone to a Revelation 150 with external cup and it feels perfect now. I don't have the numbers but the A to C on these forks is very close so I think the biggest difference came from the external cup.

    Also have to agree with tiSS'er, Calhoun, and others that the Endo is the perfect compliment to the Chilly. My chilly has a marz 55 and db air so there is an obvious difference between the two for sure!

  23. #23
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    Id pick none of those. Too much overlap. If you truly want something for 'mellow' or 'marathon' days, then a 29er should be on your list. Ive never ridden one either, but I certainly wouldnt cross it off my list because I believed 'it wasnt me'.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchcr View Post
    Well 650b with smaller volume tyres will have the same traction as a 26inch bike with high volumne tyres...they are almost the same, hardly be able to tell the difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    Something like a Blur TRc, Mojo SL, Covert Carbon, Pivot Mach 5.7 Carbon, or Yeti ASR-5 would fit the bill if you decide to go 26" (in addition to the Endo, of course).
    I have a TRc for my light-riding day when I don't need my Chilly. I thought when all this 650b euphoria hit me I would get one as well (I did want it). But when I converted TRc to 650b I found it as versatile as it can be. The bb with 650b is as tall (or short) as the Bronson at 13.6", and I can still go back to 26 as a low slung trail ripper with 13.1" bb. Indeed the travel is only 125mm (or 120mm with 650b shimming) but it's fit for me.
    The TRc is another Chameleon. Well maybe until the 650b Endo turn up
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  25. #25
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    frenchcr, apart from the 650b Endo my shortlist would included the Liteville 301. In medium, large and xl you can run it in 26 in or 650b. Also, Nicolai AC 650b with the option of a Pinion gearbox would make a great bike.

  26. #26
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    I have an Endo and a Chili. I can honestly say there is a huge difference between the two. There is very little overlap and I

    My Chili has a coil rear, 170mm front and sits at 32.5-33 lbs. My Endo has air suspension, 150mm front and sits at 28 lbs with a dropper post and real tires.

    If you are happy with the Chili I would recommend the Endo as a second bike. I have made several comments about the Endo in other threads so my opinion is out there. The two suspension curves are very different. A lot of people thought the Endo would be a mini Chili. It is not. On the uphills I love the ability to stand up and hammer with little bob. On the downs it is not nearly as plush but it has fun, snappy, sporty feel to it.

    I was pretty excited about 27.5 at first but not really sure any more. A 27.5 Endo with identical builds would be heavier and have heavier wheels/tires. I think this would take away from the snappy playful feel of the bike. For such a small difference in wheel size I can't really see the benefit vs. cost paying off. If I were looking for a different wheel size I would probably try a couple 29ers in the 125-130mm range.

    There are a lot of other great bikes out there. Besides the Endo, I would look at the Blur TrC, Yeti ASR5, Transition Bandits, and a couple of the Rocky Mountains look pretty cool. From the sounds of it the 5 Spot might not give you the separation from the Chili you are looking for.

    Ultimately, I would love to see a carbon Endo.

    TG

  27. #27
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    nearly there..

    ...getting there, eliminated some of the bikes in the OP, and im left with this...

    Bike Travel Eff Top Tube Head Angle Seat Tube Angle Wheelbase BB Height Seat Tube
    Knolly Endorphin 140 598 67 73.5 1141 340 428
    Lapierre X-Flow 130 590 67.5 74 ? 0 450
    Mondraker Foxy 140 585 68 75 1135 0 420
    Rocky Mountain Altitude 150 585 67.5 74.5 1142 0 457

    I think im probably going to end up getting the endo and putting 140 forks on it, but to give the other bikes a fair chance im going to demo them first.
    Last edited by cfrench; 05-03-2013 at 11:36 AM.

  28. #28
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    Endo only has 140mm of travel in the back, not 150.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Endo only has 140mm of travel in the back, not 150.
    oops typo, thanks for pointing it out!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by loamranger View Post
    frenchcr, apart from the 650b Endo my shortlist would included the Liteville 301. In medium, large and xl you can run it in 26 in or 650b. Also, Nicolai AC 650b with the option of a Pinion gearbox would make a great bike.
    cheers, just had a look at the Nicolai, the only thing that stops it from ticking 'all' my boxes is the HA, its 66.5, thats chili slack, next frame will need to be 67-68.

  31. #31
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    How about a few "pitchers" to spice up this thread a bit.

    I can add a few bits to what has already been said about the Chilcotin / Endorphin tag team. The first is how much better 20mm less travel works when playing around on the bike at walking speeds. It is much easier to do things like stoppies and back wheel stands on the Endorphin. It is also much easier to determine what the tires are doing on high speed corners. Can you say "two wheel drift"?

    I don't always like the low bottom bracket on the Endorphin, but I am sure it is part of what makes the handling so good. I run the Chilcotin in the steep setting and really like the height of the BB with external HS cup and 160 or 170mm travel. Slack mode is shuttle/lift mode only for me.

    I too seriously looked at 27.5 but in the end decided to stay with 26" and 2.4's. Good luck with your decision. The great thing is this category is filled with excellent bikes.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails shorter travel bike - tag teaming with the chili-001.jpg  

    shorter travel bike - tag teaming with the chili-002.jpg  

    shorter travel bike - tag teaming with the chili-003.jpg  

    shorter travel bike - tag teaming with the chili-004.jpg  

    Last edited by bubba13; 05-03-2013 at 02:35 PM.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchcr View Post
    ...getting there, eliminated some of the bikes in the OP, and im left with this...

    Bike Travel Eff Top Tube Head Angle Seat Tube Angle Wheelbase BB Height Seat Tube
    Knolly Endorphin 140 598 67 73.5 1141 340 428
    Lapierre X-Flow 130 590 67.5 74 ? 0 450
    Mondraker Foxy 140 585 68 75 1135 0 420
    Rocky Mountain Altitude 150 585 67.5 74.5 1142 0 457

    I think im probably going to end up getting the endo and putting 140 forks on it, but to give the other bikes a fair chance im going to demo them first.
    let me make it a tad easier for you
    knolly endo.
    rocky mountain altitude
    snapierre
    mondcracker,

    they dont get their nicknames for nothing. personally i would stay well clear. so it looks like endo or rocky.

    in whistler last year we did demo 2 norco's. a norco sight and a norco range. both were good bikes, very fun and chuckable, pedaled and climbed great. i was looking at buying a sight as my xc bike, but was told by mbr journo, (who was staying with us at bearbackbiking, he was there for the saint launch last year) to stay away from the norco as the bearings were crap and wore out on their testbike. he advised me to get a spesh stumpjumper evo. but the deal on the endo was to good to pass up so i went with that,
    cant comment yet as it's still in the box. work in progress lol the parts are arriving thick and fast so hoping to build up soon.

  33. #33
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    bubba13, thanks. Ive got a raw chili too and am closing in on the 'murdered out black ano' endo 26er. got three test rides booked in the first week of june (bandit foxy and altitude), then going to visit my distributor to ride the endo afterwards. atm im sure ill end up with an endo but need to play proper judge and jury as this next bike, as is the new chili, a 3 year commitment at least this. i dont want to be switching up before this as it costs too much to change bikes.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by delirian View Post
    let me make it a tad easier for you
    knolly endo.
    rocky mountain altitude
    snapierre
    mondcracker,

    they dont get their nicknames for nothing. personally i would stay well clear. so it looks like endo or rocky.

    in whistler last year we did demo 2 norco's. a norco sight and a norco range. both were good bikes, very fun and chuckable, pedaled and climbed great. i was looking at buying a sight as my xc bike, but was told by mbr journo, (who was staying with us at bearbackbiking, he was there for the saint launch last year) to stay away from the norco as the bearings were crap and wore out on their testbike. he advised me to get a spesh stumpjumper evo. but the deal on the endo was to good to pass up so i went with that,
    cant comment yet as it's still in the box. work in progress lol the parts are arriving thick and fast so hoping to build up soon.
    Cheers, i did say earlier in this thread that id likely end up with the Endo or the RM, so interesting to get your thoughts on this.

    ...the new norcos are cracking at the linkage too (Evans have seen a ~30% failure rate!). Ive heard of the occasional lapierre being rode too hard and breaking but not the Mondrakers, that suprised me. The Mondraker Foxy can be had cheap as chips (while used only a few times on pavement ) on ebay aswell, much cheaper than the usual suspects, seems its not a fashionable bike, which made it an interesting option from a cost perspective. The geo is perfect on it.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchcr View Post
    Cheers, i did say earlier in this thread that id likely end up with the Endo or the RM, so interesting to get your thoughts on this.

    ...the new norcos are cracking at the linkage too (Evans have seen a ~30% failure rate!). Ive heard of the occasional lapierre being rode too hard and breaking but not the Mondrakers, that suprised me. The Mondraker Foxy can be had cheap as chips (while used only a few times on pavement ) on ebay aswell, much cheaper than the usual suspects, seems its not a fashionable bike, which made it an interesting option from a cost perspective. The geo is perfect on it.

    yeah i had heard about the norco's issues to, thats kind of why i held back on buying one, as well as being told about the bearings.
    to be fair, mondrakers warranty is excellent, i could be very wrong hear but im sure i heard somewere that they were doing lifetime warranty on frames. like i said i could be wrong.
    if you are intrested in a mondy. let me know as my mate lee runs the shop at grizedale forest, (grizedale mountain bikes) so i could probably get you one cheap, roughly cost price.
    i know he his brother and dad and a few of their mates have all cracked them. but got new frames out of it,

  36. #36
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    I'm going to go ultra lite Endo once I sell my Trigger 1.

    On further review and a chat with Kevin about 650b I'm thinking if I add Enve AM rims, 1x10 xtr, carbon everything else, command post black lite (its lite and in the parts bin), with a 34 150m up front, the thing should absolutely rip... thinking 2.35 minions single ply and off to the races.

    Aim for about 26lbs but really keep it real for daily consumption.

    Should be a rippa.

  37. #37
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    Thanks everyone for helping me sort this one out.

    After seeing Woodyak's new superlight Endo, and reading the 'not brilliant' Pinkbike review of the Rocky Mountain Altitude today (flexy backend, and unusual use of bushings) im calling the hunt for my next bike 'over and done with'.

    Im getting an Endo too. Im going to take my time with the build (ive got a 6 week old Chili sitting here so no rush), i'm aiming for < 25lbs with CCDB Air, BOS 140AMs, 1x11 drivetrain.

  38. #38
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    Nice!
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  39. #39
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    Interesting method of choosing your next bike. You eliminated everything you had on your list without actually riding any of them? Dont get me wrong, the Endo is a great bike, but asking opinions of the Knomers is likely only going to get you what you really wanted to hear in the first place.

  40. #40
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    Regarding pedal bob and the Chili...I'm not exactly sure what everyone is talking/complaining about. I have had three shocks on my Chili: (1) RP23, (2) Cane Creek double barrel coil, and (3) Avalanche Woody. When properly tuned, the CCDB and Avy do not bob. My bike is 37 lbs. and geared high, plus I came off of 3 yrs of single speed riding before building the Chili, so the only way I know to get up really steep climbs is to stand up and hammer--and there are plenty of steep punchy climbs in central Texas. Not saying I'm Lopes or anything, but my riding style tends to induce bob on some bikes but the Chili isn't one of them. Overall, IMO, the Avy is the best climber with least bob, but the CCDB is a close second.

    Disclaimer: I don't own an Endorphin so I can't compare climbing between the two.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    Interesting method of choosing your next bike. You eliminated everything you had on your list without actually riding any of them? Dont get me wrong, the Endo is a great bike, but asking opinions of the Knomers is likely only going to get you what you really wanted to hear in the first place.
    Interesting maybe, but there is no mysterious behaviour, it is an educated descision. I live on the edge of, and help maintain, a busy bike park, i see alot of bikes and speak to alot of people. Ive had a go of about 15 bikes since the trails opened a month ago (partly because others wanted a go on my new Chili). Ive been riding for a long time, its not hard for me to tell whats what and whats not. Since the posts, i rode the lapierre (the pendbox doesnt look right or feel right to me coming off the chili). A friend and owner of a well respected mountainbike specific store who deals in Mondraker gave me a reason not to go down that route. The Altitude is not what i expected, i expected it to be simpler and stiffer, the lack of brace between the seat stays leaves two long thin flexy tubes in charge of stiffness. fact is its not as good a bike as a stumpjumper evo. As i have a chili, and ive heard other knolly owners talk about similarities, i know how the endo is going to ride. In cahoots with the post that started this thread...other bikes ive have ridden (some for only 5 minutes or so) are the stumpy evo, banshee spitfire, mojo sl, transition bottlerocket, lapierre zesty, canyon verve am,..I eliminated the Carbine and the Lynskey as the are too pricey for the frame only.

    The lowdown is the Chili blew me away with its climbing ability and goes down like a mini-DH bike. I love it. Why then, would i not be suited to an Endo..

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