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  1. #1
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    Knolly warden or ibis hdr 650b?

    I have a chilcotin which I love but i've built it heavy and intend to make it heavier with a 180mm up front. Reason being is cause I really like it's capability downhill.

    Issue is cause it's so heavy now I'm thinking of building a lighter bike that goes faster especially the technical uphills I have where I live.

    Because I want to build it light and fast i'm thinking of the ibis hdr 650b cause it's in carbon. Also cause i'm interested in what 27.5 wheels will be like.

    So what do you guys think? Anybody have experience on the mojo and can compare?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    I have a chilcotin which I love but i've built it heavy and intend to make it heavier with a 180mm up front. Reason being is cause I really like it's capability downhill.

    Issue is cause it's so heavy now I'm thinking of building a lighter bike that goes faster especially the technical uphills I have where I live.

    Because I want to build it light and fast i'm thinking of the ibis hdr 650b cause it's in carbon. Also cause i'm interested in what 27.5 wheels will be like.

    So what do you guys think? Anybody have experience on the mojo and can compare?
    Endorphin

  3. #3
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    lol yeah I was thinking of that actually. Though I was thinking that a carbon frame may have different characteristics and also the 27.5 wheels.

    Concern with endorphin would be that it's experience might be too similar to the chilcotin even if the builds are completely different.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    lol yeah I was thinking of that actually. Though I was thinking that a carbon frame may have different characteristics and also the 27.5 wheels.

    Concern with endorphin would be that it's experience might be too similar to the chilcotin even if the builds are completely different.
    if you build the chili to 33lbs....then build an endo to 27lb with 150 forks...then you have 2 different bikes...the endo has significantly better uphill ability, is faster on quick flowy trails, faster round tighter corners...best way to describe it is 'like a sporty chili' or a 'tough trail bike' or 'AM-light bike'...I love mine I think its really quick.

    im waiting for the next knolly (to replace my endo with)....its most likely to be a 130mm travel frame 650b specific (maybe carbon) ....id put the new BOS deville am 140mm 650b on it: Detail: Bos Mountain Bike Suspension

    ive sat on an mojo hdr and thought it was too compact, instantly thought of 'sore back syndrome'. the size up had too long a seat tube. it didn't look like it would last as long as a knolly either.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    if you build the chili to 33lbs....then build an endo to 27lb with 150 forks...then you have 2 different bikes...the endo has significantly better uphill ability, is faster on quick flowy trails, faster round tighter corners..its like a sporty chili

    im waiting for the next knolly (to replace the endo with)....its most likely to be a 130mm travel frame 650b specific (maybe carbon) ....id put these on it: Detail: Bos Mountain Bike Suspension
    Ok that's interesting. I was of the thinking that the endo and chilli were quite similar.

    I have the 160mm deville on the chilli at the moment. Very very good fork.

    Is knolly coming out with another new frame?

  6. #6
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    tom I was still editing there...see revised post above.

    rumour is that the next frame is a year or two away...and what ive said above seems to be the most popular 'forecast' of whats going to materialise.

    nobody knows except noel...but i suspect/hope its going to be '5010c' challenger...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    tom I was still editing there...see revised post above.

    rumour is that the next frame is a year or two away...and what ive said above seems to be the most popular 'forecast' of whats going to materialise.
    Interesting. So you think this new model will be faster than the endo you have now?

    If so I may wait for it.

    I just want a really fast bike to compliment the heavy chilli I have.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    Interesting. So you think this new model will be faster than the endo you have now?
    it has to be or I cant see a purpose for it....the gap has been closed between the chili and the endo by the warden...so unless they do a revised endo in carbon...then its got to be a 5010c challenger imo. the reason I bought the endo (I got the chili before it) instead of the 5010c was due to cost...I got the endo in the last 'knolly sale out'...it was half the price of the solo...26' bits were much cheaper, with more choices, and lighter too.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    it has to be or I cant see a purpose for it....the gap has been closed between the chili and the endo by the warden...so unless they do a revised endo in carbon...then its got to be a 5010c challenger imo.
    Damn that would be a very interesting bike. I think you've sold me. I may wait for that model then. I've had vpp and dw-link bikes in the past and yes the 4x4 is superior so I think it'll be a worthy bike to wait for. I hope it comes sooner and in carbon.

  10. #10
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    probably wait two years though...carbon would be excellent...

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    probably wait two years though...carbon would be excellent...
    I see. If that's the case then how would you rate the 5010c?

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    not trying to sell anything tom, ive done a lot thinking about what bikes to buy though, ive built 3 knollys this year, and the choice to go down the warden route or not has been difficult to say the least, I considered selling the chili to get one.

    but im sticking with the original trifecta and will sell the endo to get the above mentioned bike if it materialises...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    I see. If that's the case then how would you rate the 5010c?
    Ive owned/rode 4 vpp bikes (intense tracer, intense uzzi, sc blur tr, sc Bronson) but haven't rode the Solo...it was impossible to get one here after the naming fiasco...all four bikes were great...so im sure id love a solo.

    but the cost is ridiculous when you factor in the premium for the carbon model and the premium for 650b parts...

    i think the best deal from a financial perspective is to buy a second hand endo...and lo and behold TiSSer is selling his
    Last edited by cfrench; 12-28-2013 at 10:56 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    not trying to sell anything tom, ive done a lot thinking about what bikes to buy though, ive built 3 knollys this year, and the choice to go down the warden route or not has been difficult to say the least, I considered selling the chili to get one.

    but im sticking with the original trifecta and will sell the endo to get the above mentioned bike if it materialises...
    Not at all I appreciate the feedback. Having a look at the 5010c now...

    If knolly produces something similar it may not be for me. The bottom bracket is too low for where I ride.

  15. #15
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    Mind...test ride before buying anything...one mans meat is another mans poison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    Mind...test ride before buying anything...one mans meat is another mans poison.
    Issue is i'm in Sydney Australia. It's not easy to come by these bikes.

    Might give the endorphin a try. I like the thought of it being fast, nimble and a better climber.

    Just curious as to what aspects of the endo make it faster/nimbler and a better climber than the chilli?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    Ive owned/rode 4 vpp bikes (intense tracer, intense uzzi, sc blur tr, sc Bronson) but haven't rode the Solo...it was impossible to get one here after the naming fiasco...all four bikes were great...so im sure id love a solo.

    but the cost is ridiculous when you factor in the premium for the carbon model and the premium for 650b parts...

    i think the best deal from a financial perspective is to buy a second hand endo...and lo and behold TiSSer is selling his
    Of all those bikes you've ever ridden...which is the fastest? And which would you say is the most fun?

  18. #18
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    Its a weight thing for a start. The tighter head angle makes it really easy to throw round swoopy stuff, it rails , and on the maiden voyage I got to the top of my usually hill climb and realised I had made much easier work of it than on the chili. I was spinning away without thinking about it, that was what surprised me the most. To me it just feels a bit tighter and that manifests into power efficiency. On the way down it rides like the chili but its not nearly as forgiving (less travel to soak it up), you have to be more selective, but with speed its possible to do the same hard lines, think skipping over things due to speed, but this takes more skill, as you have less 'points of grip' on the trail.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    Of all those bikes you've ever ridden...which is the fastest? And which would you say is the most fun?
    I'd take the Endo over the Tracer, its more stable. I like the Endo better than the Blur, its just a better all round bike.

    The Chili / Bronson / Uzzi is tough to call. Ive owned an Uzzi (brilliant bike!) but like the Chili better for techy downhill (which is what I use it for). The Bronson is a great bike no doubt about it but I like the Chili 4x4 behaviours more than long travel vpp.

    The Endo is the fastest / most fun on its intended terrain (trail/am). I put a BOS Kirk shock on it and it feels very much like an AVA Woodie...

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    I'd take the Endo over the Tracer, its more stable. I like the Endo better than the Blur, its just a better all round bike.

    The Chili / Bronson / Uzzi is tough to call. Ive owned an Uzzi (brilliant bike!) but like the Chili better for techy downhill (which is what I use it for). The Bronson is a great bike no doubt about it but I like the Chili 4x4 behaviours more than long travel vpp.

    The Endo is the fastest / most fun on its intended terrain (trail/am). I put a BOS Kirk shock on it and it feels like an AVA Woodie....

    On rough downhill terrain, the Chili cant be beaten by any other 160 bike on the market. Its a plow machine.

    Depends what type of riding you do though...
    Nice write up thanks.

    I love technical downhills and I also love speed in single track and uphills.

    I had an intense ss with the 180 fork on it and that thing was unbelievable plowing down. Unfortunately it could not climb(had like a really wobbly rear not sure if it's a bearings problem?). Anyway that's what i'm going to put on the chilli now, the 180 fork so that I can plough down. But that's where I miss out on the fast single track and uphills.

    So that's why I was thinking light and bigger wheels. At this stage i'm thinking maybe endo. I can use the existing deville fork 160mm and my ccdb air which is sitting around(got the titanium coil ccdb on the chilli at the moment).

    Could be a very good combo....light endo and a burly chilli

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    id go 150 pike (im running 36 floats lowered to 150) with a bos kirk on the endo...that would increase the sporty feel compare to a 160 fork. im waiting for the next gen pike or a bos deville 150.

    Yeah, the slightly flexy rear end is exactly what I thought of the vpp bikes...that's why I say here that 'i like knollys because they are point and shoot stiff' ...we're definitively singing off the same hymn sheet here. I find knollys firmer under braking too.

    My Endo is 28lb...im hoping to take it down to 26.5lb in a years time (lighter wheels and forks). My Chili is 31.5lb with AVA Van 160s and CCDB coil, DH wheels and XX1. I feel like i've got plenty separation.

  22. #22
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    to expand on above...when I drop the Endo to 26.5lb...then we have a pattern here that tbh I didn't realise I was creating:

    26.5lb(Endo) + 5lb = 31.5lb(Chili) + 5lb = 36.5lb(the weight of my podium)...perfect trifecta separation...?

  23. #23
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    I agree with cfrench on this one. The Warden seems closer to the chili than the endo to me....especially as set up when I rode it.

    So if you want fast and snappy, think Endo. Or wait and see what Noel has up his sleeve. I, too , hope it's a carbon 27.5 Solo/Flux fighter.

    If you can't wait then I'd look at the 5010c, the Devinci Troy, or HDR if you must have carbon. Look at the flux, RM Thunderbolt or, better yet, a light build Warden if you're ok with alloy. I have no doubt pfarrell could get a Warden down around 26 lbs and feeling quite snappy.
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    As another Chili and Endo owner, I agree with cfrench's assessment. My Endorphin is just over 26 lbs and is a completely different bike than the Chili at around 33 lbs. The Endorphin pedals better, and that is before you factor in the weight. The suspension geometry on the Endorphin is tuned differently and it is a more efficient pedaling bike than the Chili.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    Because I want to build it light and fast i'm thinking of the ibis hdr 650b cause it's in carbon.
    I had assumed the new Ibis 650B was going to be my next MTB for a number of reasons until they released the specs and it was essentially a half-baked HD placeholder until Ibis recovers the expense of bringing the Ripley to market and can invest in some proper 650B moulds.

    Limited travel and tire clearance make it a non-starter for me and in a year or two when Ibis releases a purpose built 650B frame it will be hard to recoup the investment in a HDR.

    My buddy is an Ibis dealer and he said these exact things to me which is telling since he really digs Ibis in general.

    The SC Solo [can't bring myself to call it 5010!] looks great [assuming you want a shorter travel bike] except for the low BB. A bunch of my friends got new SC bikes with the 13.6" BB heights and they went from minimal pedal strikes to frequent pedal strikes with skinny pedals. It's bad enough some of them are considering shorter pedals which I think is crazy talk. Where I live the Solo just wouldn't be much fun.

    Two of the things that got me stoked about the Warden was the higher BB and great tire clearance.

    I plan to build it up on the light-side of things and if I don't keep my existing burly bike I'll get a 2nd wheelset with stouter rims and larger aggressive tires for a fast change between personalities.

    One other thing I'd add is I wouldn't wait too long for a new bike to come out. You never know if it will and when it does it could [like that HDR] end up being disappointing. Get the best bike that's available now or within your timeframe and future proof it by buying a wheel size that you know will transfer over to another likely frame in a year or two. That way you can swap parts and your only loss is the depreciation on the frame.
    Safe riding,

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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanS. View Post
    As another Chili and Endo owner, I agree with cfrench's assessment. My Endorphin is just over 26 lbs and is a completely different bike than the Chili at around 33 lbs. The Endorphin pedals better, and that is before you factor in the weight. The suspension geometry on the Endorphin is tuned differently and it is a more efficient pedaling bike than the Chili.
    Man, this discussion has me thinking Endorphin again. Hey BryanS, do you mind sharing your build specs to get yours around 26lbs?

  27. #27
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    Sure, but it might hurt...

    Frame - Large Day glo (and night glo) yellow with Fox CTD (I'm not a fan of the shock, but will be tuned or changed very soon)
    Fork - Fit 34 150 FIT CTD w/Trail Adjust
    Front Wheel - ENVE XC on DT 240S w Sapim CX Ray
    Rear Wheel - ENVE XC on DT 240S w Sapim CX Ray
    tubes - Continental Lightweight
    tires - Maxxis Crossmark 2.1 (now Racing Ralph)
    brakes - XX World Cup 180/160
    cassette - SRAM 1099 11-36
    shifters - XX 2x10
    front derailleur - Shimano XT
    rear derailleur -XX
    chain - SRAM 1091
    crankset - Raceface Next 26-38
    pedals - Eggbeater 2
    seat post - Thomson 410mm
    seat post clamp - Chromag
    seat - WTB Devo Carbon
    headset - Cane Creek 40
    bars - Joystick carbon
    stem - Thomson Elite X4 90mm
    grips - ODI Charger w Knolly endcaps

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    id go 150 pike (im running 36 floats lowered to 150) with a bos kirk on the endo...that would increase the sporty feel compare to a 160 fork. im waiting for the next gen pike or a bos deville 150.

    Yeah, the slightly flexy rear end is exactly what I thought of the vpp bikes...that's why I say here that 'i like knollys because they are point and shoot stiff' ...we're definitively singing off the same hymn sheet here. I find knollys firmer under braking too.

    My Endo is 28lb...im hoping to take it down to 26.5lb in a years time (lighter wheels and forks). My Chili is 31.5lb with AVA Van 160s and CCDB coil, DH wheels and XX1. I feel like i've got plenty separation.
    As an aside, in regards to the flexy rear end on a vpp....the only time i've found that advantageous is when taking an off camber turn when going downhill on loose and rocky. As the bike is leaned over because the rear end flexes it actually follows the terrain quite nicely providing a controlled slide. Similar to how a motorcycle chasis has in built flex to counter track bumps because when leaned over the suspension doesn't work in the vertical direction.

    I haven't been able to do this as well on the chilcotin because the rear is so stiff. Although it is fun, that's about the only advantage of a flexy rear that I can think of so of course i'd much prefer the 4x4

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    I agree with cfrench on this one. The Warden seems closer to the chili than the endo to me....especially as set up when I rode it.

    So if you want fast and snappy, think Endo. Or wait and see what Noel has up his sleeve. I, too , hope it's a carbon 27.5 Solo/Flux fighter.

    If you can't wait then I'd look at the 5010c, the Devinci Troy, or HDR if you must have carbon. Look at the flux, RM Thunderbolt or, better yet, a light build Warden if you're ok with alloy. I have no doubt pfarrell could get a Warden down around 26 lbs and feeling quite snappy.
    I find these bikes(troy, 5010, flux, thunderbolt) very strange as all of their bottom brackets are very low. I don't think their suitable for the terrain I ride which has rocky ledges. That means that they're pretty much off the list for me. If Noel is designing a bike like these then I don't think it'll work for me.
    troy 13.3in
    5010 13.1in
    flux 12.8in
    thunderbolt 13in

    I'd be interested in a 26lbs warden. These choices are difficult

  30. #30
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    Nice BryanS! But ok yeah. I believe 28ish would be more realistic for me

  31. #31
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    Tom,

    You are very close to ENDLESSFLOWCYCLES, a Knolly dealer in Australia. Give Michael a call. He has Knolly frames on the showroom floor just waiting to be snatched up. If you are into racing send me a bio, and talk to Michael.

    Knolly @ Endless Flow Cycles
    Regional Race Manager, Knolly Bikes
    Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming

  32. #32
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    Tom

    Other contenders: Nicolai 16 650b, Nicolai AC 650b, Liteville 301 (can be run 650b), Evil Uprising (might be 650b for 2014??).

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I had assumed the new Ibis 650B was going to be my next MTB for a number of reasons until they released the specs and it was essentially a half-baked HD placeholder until Ibis recovers the expense of bringing the Ripley to market and can invest in some proper 650B moulds.

    Limited travel and tire clearance make it a non-starter for me and in a year or two when Ibis releases a purpose built 650B frame it will be hard to recoup the investment in a HDR.

    My buddy is an Ibis dealer and he said these exact things to me which is telling since he really digs Ibis in general.

    The SC Solo [can't bring myself to call it 5010!] looks great [assuming you want a shorter travel bike] except for the low BB. A bunch of my friends got new SC bikes with the 13.6" BB heights and they went from minimal pedal strikes to frequent pedal strikes with skinny pedals. It's bad enough some of them are considering shorter pedals which I think is crazy talk. Where I live the Solo just wouldn't be much fun.

    Two of the things that got me stoked about the Warden was the higher BB and great tire clearance.

    I plan to build it up on the light-side of things and if I don't keep my existing burly bike I'll get a 2nd wheelset with stouter rims and larger aggressive tires for a fast change between personalities.

    One other thing I'd add is I wouldn't wait too long for a new bike to come out. You never know if it will and when it does it could [like that HDR] end up being disappointing. Get the best bike that's available now or within your timeframe and future proof it by buying a wheel size that you know will transfer over to another likely frame in a year or two. That way you can swap parts and your only loss is the depreciation on the frame.
    Good points there. I'd be interested to hear your reviews when you get your warden. Yeah I don't think i'd do so well if I run lower bottom brackets. I have enough trouble as it is on the chilcotin.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BryanS. View Post
    As another Chili and Endo owner, I agree with cfrench's assessment. My Endorphin is just over 26 lbs and is a completely different bike than the Chili at around 33 lbs. The Endorphin pedals better, and that is before you factor in the weight. The suspension geometry on the Endorphin is tuned differently and it is a more efficient pedaling bike than the Chili.
    Another one here in agreement, I've also got both, and they are completely different. My Chili is less 33.5 lbs or so and full coil, and my Endo ius full air and 28 lbs (IIRC.)
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    I find these bikes(troy, 5010, flux, thunderbolt) very strange as all of their bottom brackets are very low. I don't think their suitable for the terrain I ride which has rocky ledges. That means that they're pretty much off the list for me. If Noel is designing a bike like these then I don't think it'll work for me.
    troy 13.3in
    5010 13.1in
    flux 12.8in
    thunderbolt 13in

    I'd be interested in a 26lbs warden. These choices are difficult
    That must be why I liked all those. For what I want in a chili complement bike low bb makes sense. Faster, flowier, less rocky is where I'll use that bike so, for me, it makes perfect sense to go with a bike that will fly and rail turns.
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  36. #36
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    If possible ride both bikes..

    I was in the same boat (sort of - for me it was HDR vs. Endorphin). I rode both very recently and while I enjoyed the HDR, I thought the Endo was more fun on the downs.

    If you're willing to give up a little bit of sprightliness when it comes to climbing, go for the Knolly!! (or spend your days waiting for this rumored carbon Knolly, lol).

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tweasol View Post
    If you're willing to give up a little bit of sprightliness when it comes to climbing, go for the Knolly!! (or spend your days waiting for this rumored carbon Knolly, lol).
    Give up sprightliness due to 4x4 vs. DW link or carbon/lighter weight vs. AL?
    Safe riding,

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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Give up sprightliness due to 4x4 vs. DW link or carbon/lighter weight vs. AL?
    Hi vikb,

    The Endo I demo'd at the time was XX built, 26/27ish lbs so it wasn't a weight issue. Definitely a 4x4 vs DW thing.

    My current Endo is 31 lbs and I'm fine with the way it climbs! Since I built about 3 weeks ago my largest ascent in one day is only 6,000 ft, and I have no issue hanging with my friends on Turner's and one friend who has the HDR 650b (such a subjective measurement, lol!)

    Me personally, its hard or impossible to measure climbing efficiency over a long day in the hills but the initial acceleration difference is noticeable vs. a DW bike.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    Issue is cause it's so heavy now I'm thinking of building a lighter bike that goes faster especially the technical uphills I have where I live
    First world problems!!!!!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    If you can't wait then I'd look at the 5010c, the Devinci Troy, or HDR if you must have carbon. Look at the flux, RM Thunderbolt or, better yet, a light build Warden if you're ok with alloy.
    ...all great bikes. Also, the Kona Process 134 DL.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Knolly warden or ibis hdr 650b?-2014-kona-process-134-dl.jpg  


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