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Thread: knolly WARDEN

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    I'm an outsider here, a long time Yeti rider.
    i came from a Yeti ASR5 to an Endorphin. i couldn't believe how much more fun i'm having on the Knolly compared to the Yeti. The geometry is some kind of black magic!

    now i need to justify having a Warden to go along with the Endo.

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    Oh good! Get more people off that silly little Burner.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    You could call it a Knolly @ss Hatchet, and I'd still ride it.
    Bury that hatchet!!!!

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Oh good! Get more people off that silly little Burner.
    I don't get it. Is your constant Turner bashing supposed to be funny? Does it make you feel good, or important? Is it your special way of trying to help Knolly out?

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    For me, for most of the trails I ride, for enduro racing (at least the ones I've raced)125-135mm is plenty of travel and still keeps the bike fast and poppy and eager. Maybe Noel's next project will look like that..... in carbon. Knolly Convict anyone?
    Very interesting. I thought the WARDEN's specs would be spot on for Super D and Enduro racing.

    Short-travel Knolly Carbon => Knolly BenRiach or Knolly Stagg
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Oh good! Get more people off that silly little Burner.
    I don't know which is more inane: your vandetta against Turner, or all the hand wringing over the name.

    Pettiness on this forum aside, Knolly seems to have checked off all the right boxes with this one, should be a killer ride.
    ''It seems like a bit of a trend, everyone trying to make things longer over the last couple of years" Sam Hill

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeBokeh View Post
    i came from a Yeti ASR5 to an Endorphin. i couldn't believe how much more fun i'm having on the Knolly compared to the Yeti. The geometry is some kind of black magic!

    now i need to justify having a Warden to go along with the Endo.
    That's interesting. I was eyeing the ASR5 for a long time before deciding to go chilcotin. Always thought the ASR5 would be a gun on the trails. Interesting that you find the endorphin that much better.

  8. #108
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    Re: knolly WARDEN

    Quote Originally Posted by miles e View Post
    I don't know which is more inane: your vandetta against Turner, or all the hand wringing over the name.

    Pettiness on this forum aside, Knolly seems to have checked off all the right boxes with this one, should be a killer ride.
    Ignore him, he's just being a tool as usual.

    I think it's not pettiness, rather people finding the one thing with the product they might have issue with. Which is a testament to how dialed Knolly got this bike.

    The adjustable hta is the one thing on my Endo, and the head Tube, that I would change and the Warden addresses it perfectly. If Endo had adjustable geo and same head Tube I could run a 160 and keep geo dialed with internal HS to mimic snappy 150 territory where it is now but have that extra travel up front. That's just me. Warden is extremely well thought out and I like the name.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    If Endo had adjustable geo and same head Tube I could run a 160 and keep geo dialed with internal HS to mimic snappy 150 territory where it is now but have that extra travel up front. That's just me.
    Are you sure this real versus something you think is supposed to happen with a slacker angle?

    I run a 160 Slant with an EC lower headset on my Endo and it is snappy as hell. If it were snappier, it would snap in half! I've ridden the Endo in the "recommended" 150 config too and there is no noticeable difference in snappiness or climbing. BTW - snappiness (quick turns and playfulness) is why I am riding an Endo, so it is an attribute I pay a lot of attention to. Maybe the slacker geo would be more noticeable in smaller frame sizes, and smaller guys. I'm 6'4", on an XL.

    OK, back to the Warden - (sick!)

  10. #110
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    Re: knolly WARDEN

    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    That's interesting. I was eyeing the ASR5 for a long time before deciding to go chilcotin. Always thought the ASR5 would be a gun on the trails. Interesting that you find the endorphin that much better.
    Probably a lot depends on how one rides, and what type of trails. I have not heard very many bad things about the 5. I think the endo would be the better bike for tougher, chunkier trails.

  11. #111
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    Warden photos in the Knolly gallery:

    Eurobike 2013 (Gruppe) - Fotoalbum auf MTB-News.de

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    Hey guys

    I visited the Knolly booth today. Noel & Kevin were still there. Noel told me that the Warden sits between the Endo and the Chilli. If you are looking for maximum pedal-efficiency you should stick with the Endo.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonzoo View Post
    Hey guys

    I visited the Knolly booth today. Noel & Kevin were still there. Noel told me that the Warden sits between the Endo and the Chilli. If you are looking for maximum pedal-efficiency you should stick with the Endo.
    Thx for info. So, it seems like if u get the warden, it wouldn't make sense having chili too? Either own the endo and chili or just the warden?

    Did u get any indication when some geo will be avail? Like stand over, ETT, etc?

    I have never really paid much attn to 650b talk. Kind of has me interested now....

  14. #114
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    How about some numbers? TT, WB, SA, reach, stack... HA, BB, and CS are great, but only tells half the story. Give me the whole scoop, I hate teasers, I want info!

    I'm excited for this bike, I love my chil, but think its more bike than I need for some of my trails. I could go two bikes, say the chil and solo/sb75/ibis/various 29rs, or one bike to rule them all... Green or black Warden.

    As for the name, everyone forgot the most important one on this bike...KNOLLY. If people ask me what I ride, i say Knolly. My previous bike I said Transition. A name is important, but the name brand will trump any other product/descriptive name.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Very interesting. I thought the WARDEN's specs would be spot on for Super D and Enduro racing.
    Yeah, I think the Warden will be a great enduro bike especially for some of the rougher venues like I've seen video of in Europe and Whistler where they use all out DH courses and super tech/steep sections for stages. In my experience, most of the North American enduros will be perfectly suited for shorter travel 650b and 29er bikes. Maybe that will change as Enduro evolves. Maybe the courses will evolve based on the bikes most folks are buying/racing?

    Just saying that in the Enduros I've experienced so far, shorter travel, faster bikes rule.
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  16. #116
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    Names schnames. For me, this bike has code name WANTED.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    Yeah, I think the Warden will be a great enduro bike especially for some of the rougher venues like I've seen video of in Europe and Whistler where they use all out DH courses and super tech/steep sections for stages. In my experience, most of the North American enduros will be perfectly suited for shorter travel 650b and 29er bikes. Maybe that will change as Enduro evolves. Maybe the courses will evolve based on the bikes most folks are buying/racing?

    Just saying that in the Enduros I've experienced so far, shorter travel, faster bikes rule.
    My guess is that Enduros vary based on: 1) the available trials and their proximity to one-another; 2) the background of the organizers; and possibly 3) the bikes of the organizers.
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  18. #118
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    I think we will get more information very soon Just wait a bit!

    I asked about the geometry, but didn't ask for specific numbers so I got the answer "Sits between the Endorphin & Chilcotin".

    The Chilcotin will still be the bike for the really rough stuff.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    My guess is that Enduros vary based on: 1) the available trials and their proximity to one-another; 2) the background of the organizers; and possibly 3) the bikes of the organizers.
    I cant speak for everywhere in Europe, but in Scotland, Wales and France, there is a very large percentage of riders who ride their 160mm travel bikes (including me on the Chilcotin) on tracks that host professional level DH races. Enduro is for a large part held on DH/bike park grade courses where only the largest features are bypassed.

    You are right. Chris Ball the Director of the Enduro World Series is a local from our town. We have the best XC,AM,DH trails in Scotland here (with the exception of fort bill), but no chairlifts. So a huge number of riders ride 160mm bikes to get to the top of the DH trails and ride back down them not that much slower than they do on DH bikes. This is what the current Enduro format reflects. Next year Chris Ball is bringing the EWS home: TweedLove Enduro World Series event : TweedLove

    As for the Warden. Sticks and Stones will break our bones but names will never harm us. Its a great addition to the Knolly line up. Ive got an Endo and a Chili so no need to own a warden too. But if I had neither (and only if I had neither) then id get a Warden.

    I think the Endo as a 140mm bike (with full bos suspension) and the Chili as a 160 (with full ava suspension) gives enough range to cover everything but the most extreme trail features, which is obviously where the podium comes in. The Warden and the Podium would be a great pairing for someone who leans towards aggressive riding and who can only have two bikes. As for which bike for Enduro...a 150mm forked Endo or a 150 forked Warden...the jurys out but id put my money on the Endo for the climbs and the Warden for the descents. Something else to consider the winner of the EWS is flicking between short and long travel on his Jekyll so often he made a homemade grip shift for it...ever thought about Dyad?...its concept is probably the future.

  20. #120
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    Dyad is a heavy, complicated air shock (not without it's problems), at that weight why not just go coil for the better feel?
    ...

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deerhill View Post
    Dyad is a heavy, complicated air shock (not without it's problems), at that point why not just go coil?
    in the present day yes, but i'm talking about its concept, i.e. what it aims to do. not the dyad shock itself. it has the potential to make a bike behave like 2 completely different bikes, i.e. xc and dh. im not sure any single travel frame design will end up faster on the enduro circuit than future optimised dual travel bikes. of course for the meantime the tech is young, heavy, not as reliable or plush as single travel kit, but its not going to be this biased for that much longer.

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  23. #123
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    Seems a shock like that really only limits sag and then is damped like a lockout/propedal feel.. If you're climbing chunk and don't want the elevate/lockout feel and need more travel, it sags back down and slacks the geometry.


    Quick geometry switch is neat don't get me wrong.. the damping just needs to be independent.
    ...

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonzoo View Post
    I think I saw a Team Orange Chili in the background of one of the pics. But, I did notice that the three bikes built for "show" were the Warden, Endo, and Podium.

    I was wondering why he wouldn't have a built chili? Could it be that maybe it would be too close to the Warden resulting in not so much attn being paid to the Warden? Since this is a new bike that came out, maybe Noel didn't want any attn diverted from Warden.

    Just wondering.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    I think I saw a Team Orange Chili in the background of one of the pics. But, I did notice that the three bikes built for "show" were the Warden, Endo, and Podium.

    I was wondering why he wouldn't have a built chili? Could it be that maybe it would be too close to the Warden resulting in not so much attn being paid to the Warden? Since this is a new bike that came out, maybe Noel didn't want any attn diverted from Warden.

    Just wondering.
    New trumps old. My guess: the Chili is the "old" bike of the lot; and possibly he didn't want to deal with lots of 26 vs 27.5 questions.

    Edit: Or, all the components to build the Chili up didn't make it (not packed or lost in shipping). I had both of those things happen when I did roadshows for HP.
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    That's interesting. I was eyeing the ASR5 for a long time before deciding to go chilcotin. Always thought the ASR5 would be a gun on the trails. Interesting that you find the endorphin that much better.
    the ASR5 has a sportier ride than the Endorphin and definitely can be built up as a "cheater bike." it's great if you prefer to feel the trail beneath you. acceleration is quick and has mountain goat climbing ability but it always felt like i wanted more out of it when pointing the nose down. also, it always felt like i was riding on it (like a horse) rather than in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by eatdrinkride View Post
    Probably a lot depends on how one rides, and what type of trails. I have not heard very many bad things about the 5. I think the endo would be the better bike for tougher, chunkier trails.
    agreed, the 5 is a great bike but my discipline changed as a rider. although i had a 140mm fork rather than the preferred 120mm the bike felt geared towards an aggressive XC rider than a Trail/All-Mountain rider. the Endorphin's just more fun going down hill with it's active suspension and ability to cruise over the chunky bits.

    can't wait to demo a Warden once it arrives at my LBS. i'd like to demo one back to back with a Chilcotin and possibly pick one of them up to pair with my Endo.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonzoo View Post
    thanks for the link! interesting to hear Noel talk about the Warden built as an Enduro style frame.

    here's the direct link to the video in full HD.
    http://videos.mtb-news.de/videos/view/31033/fhd?qc=fhd

  28. #128
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    We had a complete yellow Chilcotin at our booth as well. The Endorphin and Chilcotin will remain available as 26" offerings for the foreseeable future. Jumping into the 650b game is all about options for everyone. If you want to try 650b wheels, fine, we have you covered. Or if you're happy with 26" wheels, that's fine too. There is unquestionably a huge amount of buzz surrounding the 650 wheel size, but it's important to remember that it's an option, and shouldn't necessarily be treated as a "feature". It's a different wheel size, but defining it as better will always depend on your individual priorities.

    I think the same parameters apply to the whole carbon vs. aluminum conversation. Will we be getting into carbon in the future? Yes. Carbon is lighter, but alloy is more durable, so let's assume those 2 pros and cons cancel each other out(since again, not everyone's priorities are the same.) Then it comes down to how each material feels beneath you in terms of deflection, vibration absorption, and overall compliance and 'playfulness'. I think this concept is generally lost in the noise created by weight vs. durability. Noel knows how to make an alloy bike that feels absolutely fantastic between your legs, this is a fact.

    Lastly, and by far most importantly, there is suspension philosophy, design, and execution. The reason you see 90% of bike makers shouting "650b!!!" from the top of every mountain is because they don't have a suspension design worthy of an ongoing marketing campaign. In fact, if you think about it, almost every other 'boutique' maker licenses there design from someone that doesn't work for their company, or they have purchased the design from someone that is no longer even in the bike industry. Food for thought.

    The show went great, The Warden caught so much media buzz, everyone was very excited about the design. I'm freaking exhausted.

    @FNG - This response is not pointed directly at you, just seemed like a good place to share these thoughts.



    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    I think I saw a Team Orange Chili in the background of one of the pics. But, I did notice that the three bikes built for "show" were the Warden, Endo, and Podium.

    I was wondering why he wouldn't have a built chili? Could it be that maybe it would be too close to the Warden resulting in not so much attn being paid to the Warden? Since this is a new bike that came out, maybe Noel didn't want any attn diverted from Warden.

    Just wondering.
    Global Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post

    Lastly, and by far most importantly, there is suspension philosophy, design, and execution. The reason you see 90% of bike makers shouting "650b!!!" from the top of every mountain is because they don't have a suspension design worthy of an ongoing marketing campaign. In fact, if you think about it, almost every other 'boutique' maker licenses there design from someone that doesn't work for their company, or they have purchased the design from someone that is no longer even in the bike industry. Food for thought.

    The show went great, The Warden caught so much media buzz, everyone was very excited about the design. I'm freaking exhausted.

    @FNG - This response is not pointed directly at you, just seemed like a good place to share these thoughts.
    too true. the other reason they are shouting 650b is to increase sales. the 26" is hardly dead despite the 650b revolution created by the manufacturers. yes, some companies have went 650b only but that isn't because it's better, it's strictly to force you into 650b by not offering 26" anymore. great to see knolly offering 650b as an option and keeping the endo and chili alive. i don't see 650b killing 26". a good design is a good design and i still think rider skill is the ultimate equalizer. i'm more than happy with my 26" bikes and don't see a change in the near future for me

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    too true. the other reason they are shouting 650b is to increase sales. the 26" is hardly dead despite the 650b revolution created by the manufacturers. yes, some companies have went 650b only but that isn't because it's better, it's strictly to force you into 650b by not offering 26" anymore. great to see knolly offering 650b as an option and keeping the endo and chili alive. i don't see 650b killing 26". a good design is a good design and i still think rider skill is the ultimate equalizer. i'm more than happy with my 26" bikes and don't see a change in the near future for me
    I will be honest. I don't know crap about 650b other than bigger wheels. I never paid one notice of attention to 29ers when they came out. Actually found them irritating. Maybe it was just because of all the hype. Now, since the 650b has been buzzing, I am hearing a lot of people that hated 29ers liking this concept.
    I am not trying to sound like a Knolly fanboi but I absolutely love my Chilcotin. It has made my riding so much more fun. Both up and down the mountain. So, by riding a suspension design that I feel perfect for me, I probably will always own Knollies.
    That being said....because Knolly has a 650b out now, I have to admit, my interests are peaked where they never were before on them.

    In simple terms, what is it that 650b people like? The bigger wheels than 26 but not huge like 29? A "meet in the middle" compromise between 26 and 29?

    As you can see classifieds, I am selling my Chilco to buy a Medium. Now i am wondering if i should try the Warden since Knolly offers one??? It is a more costly mistake to make since you have to invest in wheels and fork.

    Just asking for some advice on people more versed in this subject than I. Thanks.

  31. #131
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    In simple terms, what is it that 650b people like? The bigger wheels than 26 but not huge like 29? A "meet in the middle" compromise between 26 and 29?
    In simple terms yes. Also depends if your a cup half full or a cup half empty kind of person. Some say the best of both worlds and some say the worst. Go have a look at Giants huge 650b marketing logic (or Rocky Mountain or even Trek now) and see what you think. For me it works and I predicted this would happen. I started mtn biking in 08 and quickly discovered 650b and converted my Prophet and haven't looked back. Since then I've had a 650b Jamis Dakar and now a Banshee Spitfire V2 which I'm assembling in 650b. 29'ers are amazing in their own way and I did stuff on them I couldn't on the Prophet but had drawbacks for me I didn't like. My personal belief is 650b has a wider sweet spot over a range of different conditions than 26" or 29". I also think the Warden is gonna rock and have a huge impact on Endorphin sales and maybe the Chilly as well. I would say go for it if you can wait till Feb. for a frame.

    As you can see classifieds, I am selling my Chilco to buy a Medium. Now i am wondering if i should try the Warden since Knolly offers one??? It is a more costly mistake to make since you have to invest in wheels and fork.
    Yup, wheels and a fork although their are a # of 26" forks that work with 650b wheels (some with limitations on tire diameter since 650b tires can vary by a 1/2" or more in diameter) A Fox 36 for example will handle any 650b wheel. What fork do you have now as it might possible work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    In simple terms yes. Also depends if your a cup half full or a cup half empty kind of person. Some say the best of both worlds and some say the worst. Go have a look at Giants huge 650b marketing logic (or Rocky Mountain or even Trek now) and see what you think. For me it works and I predicted this would happen. I started mtn biking in 08 and quickly discovered 650b and converted my Prophet and haven't looked back. Since then I've had a 650b Jamis Dakar and now a Banshee Spitfire V2 which I'm assembling in 650b. 29'ers are amazing in their own way and I did stuff on them I couldn't on the Prophet but had drawbacks for me I didn't like. My personal belief is 650b has a wider sweet spot over a range of different conditions than 26" or 29". I also think the Warden is gonna rock and have a huge impact on Endorphin sales and maybe the Chilly as well. I would say go for it if you can wait till Feb. for a frame.



    Yup, wheels and a fork although their are a # of 26" forks that work with 650b wheels (some with limitations on tire diameter since 650b tires can vary by a 1/2" or more in diameter) A Fox 36 for example will handle any 650b wheel. What fork do you have now as it might possible work?
    Lyrik rc2 DH

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    Lyrik rc2 DH
    Lyric will work with some but not all 650b tires. A Pacenti Neo-Moto 2.3" for example will fit but a taller Schwalbe HD or NN 2.35" no. Unless you want to get into arch grinding for more clearance. You could get by with that fork in the short term no problem. I think the A/C height is even in the ball park. Warden geometry I assume is based off a 545mm A/C height (150mm travel) 650b fork like the new Pike or a Fox.

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    I think 650b takes the 26 bike and adds some additional versatility with few drawbacks.

    As for the excellent points Dusty touched on: weight and deflection/durability. At 33 lbs the Chilicotin is an amazing bike, but I also find myself desiring a slightly lighter climb so that I have more gas on the downs. Not a big deal but as an aging Clydesdale, I think about this more these days.

    Ideally, a 26-28lb trail crusher with 650b wheels would be my choice.

    What does a fully built Warden come in at weight wise in the various sizes ( I'm most interested in large myself)?

    ...and in my opinion the Warden should have British racing green as one of the color options.

  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by vancouver View Post
    I think 650b takes the 26 bike and adds some additional versatility with few drawbacks.

    As for the excellent points Dusty touched on: weight and deflection/durability. At 33 lbs the Chilicotin is an amazing bike, but I also find myself desiring a slightly lighter climb so that I have more gas on the downs. Not a big deal but as an aging Clydesdale, I think about this more these days.

    Ideally, a 26-28lb trail crusher with 650b wheels would be my choice.

    What does a fully built Warden come in at weight wise in the various sizes ( I'm most interested in large myself)?

    ...and in my opinion the Warden should have British racing green as one of the color options.
    I argue that 2 bikes with same geometry - one with 26in wheel and one with 650b. The 26inch wheels will be faster uphill owing the lower rotational weight. On downhill, unless it is uber straight and flat out, you will not notice that much difference. At slower speeds, the 26er will be more flickable. In the end, one is more playful and one is more stable. This has been the argument (ignoring frame geometry limitations) between 26er and 29er from the beginning. It is the same thing for the 26er and 650B, but only the differences are smaller.

    In general, I find people who race prefer 29er, as they provide more stability for shorter travel race bikes. The long travel 29er never really materialized. For most us, we going downhill to play on the trail features. Now we want to go fast while doing this, but most are not worried about the few seconds - we are riding with our buddies.

    Sorry to vent my frustration, but I am tired of hearing that 650B is the end all be all of bikes. I agree it has its place, there is no turning back.

    Devil's advocate...
    I imagine you can build the Chilcotin with the new Pike with some lighter tires and AM parts and be close 28lbs. And that bike will be a trail crusher! That's the beauty of Knolly bikes - geometry, versatility, and ability to use big wheels.

    Besides consumers, I hope companies that believe in 26er also put up some resistance and state it openly (ie Specialized) such that component/fork companies recognize their place. If companies don't make stand, it is just a bunch of internet e-riders complaining and this voice is often ignored.

    I am glad Knolly is sticking with their original line up and adding a 650B for the competition.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    I argue that 2 bikes with same geometry - one with 26in wheel and one with 650b. The 26inch wheels will be faster uphill owing the lower rotational weight. On downhill, unless it is uber straight and flat out, you will not notice that much difference. At slower speeds, the 26er will be more flickable. In the end, one is more playful and one is more stable. This has been the argument (ignoring frame geometry limitations) between 26er and 29er from the beginning. It is the same thing for the 26er and 650B, but only the differences are smaller.

    In general, I find people who race prefer 29er, as they provide more stability for shorter travel race bikes. The long travel 29er never really materialized. For most us, we going downhill to play on the trail features. Now we want to go fast while doing this, but most are not worried about the few seconds - we are riding with our buddies.

    Sorry to vent my frustration, but I am tired of hearing that 650B is the end all be all of bikes. I agree it has its place, there is no turning back.

    Devil's advocate...
    I imagine you can build the Chilcotin with the new Pike with some lighter tires and AM parts and be close 28lbs. And that bike will be a trail crusher! That's the beauty of Knolly bikes - geometry, versatility, and ability to use big wheels.

    Besides consumers, I hope companies that believe in 26er also put up some resistance and state it openly (ie Specialized) such that component/fork companies recognize their place. If companies don't make stand, it is just a bunch of internet e-riders complaining and this voice is often ignored.

    I am glad Knolly is sticking with their original line up and adding a 650B for the competition.
    I like the chilcotin as it is. For how I use it, it is close to perfect. I do t think I can take 5 lbs off the bike without compromising its amazing ability.

    My thoughts are on island type riding: rocky rooty single track. I am pondering something like the endo but the warden may fit the bill. Hence the question. I don't care much about the wheel size debate. I'm more interested in finding ways to elevate my riding.

  37. #137
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    In making wheels, aluminum is lighter than rubber. I've not noticed huge differences 26 vs 650b wheel weights (see from my previous post below); so switching to a larger diameter rim could be a lighter-weight alternative to get the same wheel diameter.


    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    *Examples
    Envy
    26" AM -- 1578g (with King Hub)
    27.5" AM -- 1602g (with King Hub)

    Syntace W35 MX REAR
    Complete wheelset weight; Front and Rear wheel

    1595 g (26'' 28 hole)
    1687 g (27.5'' 28 hole)
    1872 g (29'' 32 hole)
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    In making wheels, aluminum is lighter than rubber. I've not noticed huge differences 26 vs 650b wheel weights (see from my previous post below); so switching to a larger diameter rim could be a lighter-weight alternative to get the same wheel diameter.
    Interesting. Did you compute a full difference - wheel, tire, and tube? If the weight difference << 100grams, not too bad. If the weight difference > 100grams, it could be noticeable.

    I forget the saying X number of rotational weight is X of frame weight?

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Lyric will work with some but not all 650b tires. A Pacenti Neo-Moto 2.3" for example will fit but a taller Schwalbe HD or NN 2.35" no. Unless you want to get into arch grinding for more clearance. You could get by with that fork in the short term no problem. I think the A/C height is even in the ball park. Warden geometry I assume is based off a 545mm A/C height (150mm travel) 650b fork like the new Pike or a Fox.
    BOS also works with 650b.

    FNG, I'm running a 650b front/ 26 rear combo on my Chili. My suggestion is to try that first and see if you like/dislike it before commiting to a Warden. My interest in the Warden is as a second AM/Enduro bike with 160 air fork and air shock and then leaving the Chili with 180 coil fork and coil shock for uplift days.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    We had a complete yellow Chilcotin at our booth as well. The Endorphin and Chilcotin will remain available as 26" offerings for the foreseeable future. Jumping into the 650b game is all about options for everyone. If you want to try 650b wheels, fine, we have you covered. Or if you're happy with 26" wheels, that's fine too. There is unquestionably a huge amount of buzz surrounding the 650 wheel size, but it's important to remember that it's an option, and shouldn't necessarily be treated as a "feature". It's a different wheel size, but defining it as better will always depend on your individual priorities.

    I think the same parameters apply to the whole carbon vs. aluminum conversation. Will we be getting into carbon in the future? Yes. Carbon is lighter, but alloy is more durable, so let's assume those 2 pros and cons cancel each other out(since again, not everyone's priorities are the same.) Then it comes down to how each material feels beneath you in terms of deflection, vibration absorption, and overall compliance and 'playfulness'. I think this concept is generally lost in the noise created by weight vs. durability. Noel knows how to make an alloy bike that feels absolutely fantastic between your legs, this is a fact.

    Lastly, and by far most importantly, there is suspension philosophy, design, and execution. The reason you see 90% of bike makers shouting "650b!!!" from the top of every mountain is because they don't have a suspension design worthy of an ongoing marketing campaign. In fact, if you think about it, almost every other 'boutique' maker licenses there design from someone that doesn't work for their company, or they have purchased the design from someone that is no longer even in the bike industry. Food for thought.

    The show went great, The Warden caught so much media buzz, everyone was very excited about the design. I'm freaking exhausted.

    @FNG - This response is not pointed directly at you, just seemed like a good place to share these thoughts.
    Dusty, you make some good points. Ali vs carbon hasn't been discussed in great depth anywhere and it now seems that a lot of people aspire to having a carbon frame because it is supposed to be lighter without thinking about the different ride characteristics of the materials.

  41. #141
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    Disclaimer and Knolly Group hug.....

    Quote Originally Posted by loamranger View Post
    BOS also works with 650b.

    FNG, I'm running a 650b front/ 26 rear combo on my Chili. My suggestion is to try that first and see if you like/dislike it before commiting to a Warden. My interest in the Warden is as a second AM/Enduro bike with 160 air fork and air shock and then leaving the Chili with 180 coil fork and coil shock for uplift days.
    Interesting! Thanks. Real quick without boring you all. I have been on this board more than usual lately... I wrecked two weeks ago and sustained a a fracture to the C5 Spinous Process along with ligament damage. Basically, grounded from what I do that i love...ride Chilco. I am spending my pent up riding energy surfing the forums.... Heck, you saw the excitement Dom brought me with his post of his fine formed woman!!! I have quite a few percocets, valiums, and alcohol running through my veins.

    I feel like I am turning into TSC here...with all these thoughts...(joke). You said that you run 650b front and 26 rear. Fortunately, I ride with a few guys that are very knowledgeable. Also Knolly riders. What if you ran the Warden with 26" tires? That way, you get a true in between Endo/Chilco. A 150mm travel adjustable bike with that head tube? Allowing you to run a tapered or full 1.5" steerer tube with an Internal bottom cup! It seems that nowadays, 1 1/8th steerer tube forks are themselves becoming obsolete. I don't like running external bottom cups due to altering true geo.

    At Loamranger...you make an interesting point. Rotational weight is different than regular weight. So, if you could save a few hundred grams on something, it should be the wheels since they are rotational. Primarily the rear wheel!???

    Bottom line, I wouldn't be in this dilemma in considering a Warden if it weren't for both the injury and the fact I am buying a new Knolly. Dam you Noel!!!

    Ok, someone else can pontificate now. And would someone please buy by Chilco!!!

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    I argue that 2 bikes with same geometry - one with 26in wheel and one with 650b. The 26inch wheels will be faster uphill owing the lower rotational weight. On downhill, unless it is uber straight and flat out, you will not notice that much difference. At slower speeds, the 26er will be more flickable. In the end, one is more playful and one is more stable. This has been the argument (ignoring frame geometry limitations) between 26er and 29er from the beginning. It is the same thing for the 26er and 650B, but only the differences are smaller.
    I've done some realworld experimenting with 26er wheels using different tires. I didn't plan on doing the testing I was just switching to winter rubber, but noticed a huge difference in how my bike rolled through tech sections - both up and down, but the impact was most noticeable going up because of the slower speeds and less momentum.

    I ended up measuring the wheels with tires and there was a 20mm difference going to the bigger tire which was ~27" in diameter [for reference the 2.35" 650B High Roller II is ~27.5" tall'.

    Since my riding 95% technical rolling through tech sections more easily is very important so I kept running those same big 26er tires which max out my frame's rear triangle.

    I'm faster up and down on the bigger 26er wheel/tire combo. I expect to be faster up and down on 650B bike as well. Although I'm looking forward to getting some of the bigger diameter wheel performance I like without having to run the widest tire I can get my hands on.

    I ride a rigid 29er and have contemplated a FS 29er, but the availability of 650B bikes offers a lot of the benefits of the bigger wheel without the compromises of a 29er wheel.

    While I agree that nobody needs a 650B bike the way nobody needs a 29er or a 26er for that matter. You can ride trails on all the wheel sizes and come away smiling unless you are crazy picky. Having said that if you are going to drop $5K+ on a mountain bike you should get the one that you are stoked most about and that suits your needs the best.

    I do think that 26ers and 650B bikes will not play nice in most company's bike line ups over the longterm. Unlike the 26er vs. 29er situation where there were some clear pros and cons to differentiate the showroom floor options the 26er vs. 650B situation is a lot less clear and that means a lot of money would get spent trying to sell similar bikes. Just my opinion, but I think something has to give and that it will likely mean the end of most 26ers below the 160mm travel range.

    I'm one of those folks really stoked about the wave of 650B bikes that's just arrived. They fit my needs well and I'm happy to have a bunch of choices.

    When MTBs started being built the 26" wheel wasn't selected because it was found to be ideal for mountain biking. It was just one of the bicycle wheels available at the time and folks jumped on to it for that reason. I've had lots of great years of riding 26er wheels/tires, but I really don't care whether they are around in 5yrs in any numbers.

    I'm not going to get attached to 650B either. I'm going to buy a 650B bike and ride it for 5yrs. When stuff starts to really wear out I'll get rid of it and buy whatever is available at the time that best meets my needs.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    Lastly, and by far most importantly, there is suspension philosophy, design, and execution. The reason you see 90% of bike makers shouting "650b!!!" from the top of every mountain is because they don't have a suspension design worthy of an ongoing marketing campaign. In fact, if you think about it, almost every other 'boutique' maker licenses there design from someone that doesn't work for their company, or they have purchased the design from someone that is no longer even in the bike industry. Food for thought.
    +1 - I've been shopping for a new MTB the last while and I started by making a list of the companies that had well executed suspension designs that I could get excited about. Then I looked at what the wheel size, geometry and suspension travel options were.

    If the suspension design and implementation isn't great it really doesn't matter what you do with the rest of the bike. It will be less than spectacular.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Interesting. Did you compute a full difference - wheel, tire, and tube? If the weight difference << 100grams, not too bad. If the weight difference > 100grams, it could be noticeable.

    I forget the saying X number of rotational weight is X of frame weight?
    I haven't jumped into all the physics behind rotational mass; but my understanding is that affects of rotational mass are are noticed when accelerating or decelerating the bike. Supposedly, from an article I read, that if you keep a steady speed then the rotational mass doesn't matter. If true, then you end up with the weight on the outside of the tire mattering the most; and mattering in techy terrain.

    The wheel weights I quoted are directly from the two manufacturers' websites. My assumption is that these are the weights without the tire, tape, etc. Unfortunately I'm not able to an apples-to-apples comparison on the tires to see if I'm right.

    Another way to look at it is that going from a 2.25 to a 2.35 in the same tire gains you .2" for a weight increase of 50g. (You are getting a wider tire too.) Going from a 26 to a 650b gains you 1" for 35g plus the increased rim & spoke weight. If you were doing the Enve rims then it's 24g for a total of 59g. That's 9g more for .8" more in diameter. Therefore any performance due to rotational mass will be negligible.

    Here's a sort-of example of what I'm talking about.

    Nobby Nic HS 411 (Evolution Line, Folding Bead)
    ETRTO
    Size
    Performance Compound PSI Weight
    Diameter (mm) Diameter (in.)
    57-559 26 x 2.25 TL Ready PaceStar 26-54 545 g 674.5 26.6
    57-584 27.5 x 2.25 TL Ready PaceStar 26-54 575 g
    699.5 27.6
    60-559 26 x 2.35 TL Ready PaceStar 23-50 595 g 680.5 26.8

    *The numbers in blue are calculated by averaging, taking the mean, comparing the values, & selecting tires whose average and mean were close (for Schwalbe tires). They are close but not more than that.

    Edit: Screwed around with the table trying to make it easier to read and for comparisons. (Just avoiding work.)
    Last edited by TSC; 09-03-2013 at 10:12 AM.
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    When MTBs started being built the 26" wheel wasn't selected because it was found to be ideal for mountain biking. It was just one of the bicycle wheels available at the time and folks jumped on to it for that reason. I've had lots of great years of riding 26er wheels/tires, but I really don't care whether they are around in 5yrs in any numbers.
    This is one of those internet arguments that seems to have gained traction even though it is total crap. The 26" wheel won at that time precisely because it was deemed to offer the best performance. The late 80s and early 90s were the golden age of the small independent builder and mtb innovation. All kinds of crazy ideas got thrown against the wall including different frame materials, suspension, geometries and wheel sizes. You could buy off road worthy 700c tires at least as far back as 1992. The only reason the other wheel sizes didn't take off earlier is that none of the builders of the time thought it was worth marketing, nothing more and nothing less. I have zero desire to ride the hardtail bikes with NORBA geometry that won the day but I do object to the inaccuracy of the argument.

    The wheel size question is kind of like chainstay length. There are pluses and minuses. I've spent a long day on a Bronson, while it was a fine bike I would really have to try one that didn't have crap CTD suspension to know if I would be happy with it.

    The warden seems like a pretty killer bike for those seeking a one bike solution. It also seems like it leaves room for a shorter travel carbon bike which would ideally compliment my Chilcotin.
    Only two infinite things exist: the universe and stupidity. And, I am unsure of the universe
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  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    I feel like I am turning into TSC here...with all these thoughts...(joke). You said that you run 650b front and 26 rear. Fortunately, I ride with a few guys that are very knowledgeable. Also Knolly riders. What if you ran the Warden with 26" tires? That way, you get a true in between Endo/Chilco. A 150mm travel adjustable bike with that head tube? Allowing you to run a tapered or full 1.5" steerer tube with an Internal bottom cup! It seems that nowadays, 1 1/8th steerer tube forks are themselves becoming obsolete. I don't like running external bottom cups due to altering true geo.
    First, you wish. It takes a lot to be as nerdy as me!

    Second, you probably don't want to do that. The warden already has BB height that is spec'd to be a tad lower than the Chili, IIRC. By putting 26" wheels on the Warden you would drop your BB by 1/2 an inch and make it a low-rider.

    BTW, heal well! You in a turtle shell? (I did 3+ months in one and it SUCKED!!!)
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

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    Devil's advocate...
    I imagine you can build the Chilcotin with the new Pike with some lighter tires and AM parts and be close 28lbs. And that bike will be a trail crusher!


    I was playing around with parts last winter and had a chilly built up at 26.5 lbs and yes they were ridable parts

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    Devil's advocate...
    I imagine you can build the Chilcotin with the new Pike with some lighter tires and AM parts and be close 28lbs. And that bike will be a trail crusher!


    I was playing around with parts last winter and had a chilly built up at 26.5 lbs and yes they were ridable parts
    Is your frame a large? What is your setup?

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Giggity View Post
    This is one of those internet arguments that seems to have gained traction even though it is total crap. The 26" wheel won at that time precisely because it was deemed to offer the best performance.
    Right. So the folks keen on building MTBs at the time started with a blank slate and based on the design parameters concluded that a 26" rim was the optimal choice and by sheer luck that size wheel was readily available on bikes at the time with appropriate tires.

    How convenient....

    Nobody in mountain biking invented the 26er/650B/29er wheel size. They've been around for other road bicycle applications and were simply adopted because they were the closest thing to what folks wanted at the time that was readily available.

    People use what they can get their hands on. Starting something new is tough enough without having to invent every part you need.

    Given the popularity of 29ers for hardtails and rigid bikes if the early MTB pioneers were so willing to forge a completely fresh path they should have worked with the 700c wheels of the day since all their bikes were rigid.

    There are many examples in the bike industry of technology or techno-myth where folks grabbed one thing and stuck with it despite it not being the best option.

    This is from Joe Breeze:

    The “fat tire,” that is one having a cross-sectional diameter of 2” or more, is what later fired the imagination of so many to how far a bicycle could go off road. It gave the mountain bike its extreme degree of ruggedness. Bicycle fat tires, also known as balloon tires, came into existence in the early 1930s, possibly late 1920s. Whether the first balloon-tire bike to be ridden off road was American or European (possibly German), I don’t know. Semperit had a 26 x 2” tire in the early 1930s. Arnold, Schwinn & Co. of Chicago was introduced to such a tire in Germany in 1932 and popularized the size in America.
    Nobody picked the 26" wheel. It was just there at the right time with the right tires to get mountain biking rolling. Once it was rolling it just kept going for a lot of years until people were ready to experiment and the 29er is certainly not a fad.

    There is no rationale reason to hang onto the 26er just because it was on MTBs for a long time. If it works for you on your local trails great, but there is nothing magical or special about it and there is nothing wrong with 650B just because it wasn't the wheel size MTBs started with.

    650B and ballon tires were popular in France in the early part of the last century. It's really just luck that that wheel size didn't make it across the pond to spark the start of modern mountain biking.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    People use what they can get their hands on.
    I read this a while back. It is attributed to Joe Breeze*. History of 650B | Bike198

    *About Joe Breeze: Hall of Fame Inductees - The Mountain Bike Hall of Fame
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

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