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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    I have climbed 42km this year on my coil shocked Endo. Seems ok so far
    I climbed to the top of the continental divide, twice, on my E29 (I live at sea level) in Colorado. That doesn't mean it climbed well. I bought a bike with suspension to use the suspension, even on the climbs
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  2. #102
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    My point is, if it didn't climb well I would have noticed by now.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    On the logging roads the CS eliminates any bobbing, and on the trail it has no impact.
    Bingo, that's the beauty of the system explained in a single sentence. Can't believe people still judge the climbing ability of a 6" travel AM bike on how smoothly they pedal on gravel roads.

  4. #104
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    If the CS switch has no impact, do you run it all the time, on the downhill and everywhere?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    If the CS switch has no impact, do you run it all the time, on the downhill and everywhere?
    Why are you so obsessed with trying to convince people who love the Knolly bikes that they shouldn't love their bikes?

    I am a mainly casual observer to the forum, but dude, go ride your bike. I am happy that you found a bike that works for you. I have too. The end.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by drboudreaux View Post
    Why are you so obsessed with trying to convince people who love the Knolly bikes that they shouldn't love their bikes?

    I am a mainly casual observer to the forum, but dude, go ride your bike. I am happy that you found a bike that works for you. I have too. The end.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    I did ride today.

    Knolly Climbing Behavior-19961665_10101205722250138_742785938053182619_n.jpg

    Knolly Climbing Behavior-19989690_10101205722349938_2549209154250340154_n.jpg
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  7. #107
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    Why do you keep saying that? You think me and my friends have never rode one?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by drboudreaux View Post
    Why are you so obsessed with trying to convince people who love the Knolly bikes that they shouldn't love their bikes?
    He's just upset that Turner are no longer the cool brand that all the kids dream of owning...


  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I did ride today.

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    Go buy some lights for your bike and ride again.

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  10. #110
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    I meant that the CS is always off on the trail.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    I meant that the CS is always off on the trail.
    Yup. I run the shock full open on the trail and the 4x4 climbs great. Like Travis if my Knolly didn't climb great it would be sold and I'd hang my parts off another frame. My last 3 FS bikes have all been different brands. I buy what works amazing - I'm not chasing a brand logo.

    What I am doing is actually owning and riding the bikes in question...not theorizing based on a geo chart or a suspension curve chart. Crazy I know!
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  12. #112
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    Knolly Climbing Behavior

    I've had enough time on the Endorphin now to share some thoughts FWIW. First I think the definition of "climbs well" will be different for everyone. My other bike is a Santa Cruz Heckler (latest edition) it has a very linear anti-squat "curve" that generally keeps it north of 100% and as such has the positive and negative attributes of that type of design. The biggest difference I notice vs the Heckler is when I am climbing on trail vs on road. The behaviour tends to be particularly noticeable when I go down a small hill and then need to climb up another but misjudge or I am not able to produce enough momentum due to the short distance to get up the other side without pedalling. In these instances I usually stand up and mash, doing this on the Endorphin feels like I'm pushing through mud (particularly if Iím in a harder gear and the suspension is under compression; which it would be when I stand up and mash). On sustained climbs where I can keep my cadence the same and I am seated most of the time its not really an issue and can actually be a benefit due to the great traction. In this type of scenario the Heckler will react to pedal influence immediately and push me forward while raising my bottom bracket (a side benefit on rocky climbs due to increasing pedal clearance) the draw back to this is the possibility of loosing traction and getting hung up on square edge rocks due to the suspension ďlocking outĒ though this can be mitigated somewhat by running a good rear tire and lower air pressures. The Heckler also has a longer rear end by about 10mm so this may also be a factor in increased traction loss.

    Iíll also note that none of this is a surprise to me because I am a chart analyzer and these characteristics are exactly as the designer of these bikes intended. Yes Iím a bike geek and have a copy of Linkage X3 I use to run bikes through the virtual numbers. Despite that I also believe that the bike needs to be ridden before one can make any real assessment of how it rides and whether you will like it or not. Iíve now thankfully had the opportunity to try two bikes at opposite ends of the suspension kinematics spectrum and ultimately it comes down to what compromises you are wanting to deal with for your ride because for sure all designs have them.
    Last edited by geraldooka; 07-17-2017 at 08:37 PM.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    I've had enough time on the Endorphin now to share some thoughts FWIW.
    How did you find the difference between the stock DBA Inline and the Avy'd shock you have now?
    Safe riding,

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  14. #114
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    The Avy'd shock lacks any platform capabilities outside of what is built into the custom mid valving done by Craig. As such it moves quite freely even with the compression on full the Inline of course has the CS switch which can mitigate much of this movement (though I still have the issue I described above just less so). This is the design intent of the shock so I fully expected it to behave this way. The Knolly has a very progressive leverage curve vs the Heckler which is actually regressive (meaning it gets easier to push the shock the further into travel the bike is). So far I think Craig's philosophy works better on the Heckler than on the Knolly, having said that I haven't discussed my experiences with him yet and he may have some advice to provide that can change this particular behaviour on the Knolly. Since much of my climbing involves dirt roads right now its not really a deal breaker. I tried Jean's Endorphin out which is running the Fox DPS and in lock out or even Trail it was noticeably more efficient than my bike keeping me higher up and "sprinting" me forward so to speak. On the downs on my Avy'd Endorphin the rear is pure bliss and despite having 20mm less travel the Knolly is a smoother ride than the Heckler. Something I attribute partly to having 70% lower pedal kick across a wider gear range. Compromises...
    Michael

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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    So far I think Craig's philosophy works better on the Heckler than on the Knolly, having said that I haven't discussed my experiences with him yet and he may have some advice to provide that can change this particular behaviour on the Knolly.
    I'll be interested to hear if you get the Avy shock re-tuned. The Avy'd shock on my Nomad revolutionized the ride, but all the feedback I got about Avying my Mach 6 shock was that it wasn't enough of an improvement to be worth it.

    I only use the CCDBA[IL] CS when on fireroads, but man do I like that it controls the compression and rebound instead of just the LSC like other shocks I've had. I held off on getting a CC shock due to the problems they were having with the Inline, but now that I do have one it's super nice.

    I am a bit embarrassed how little I've deviated from the suggested Knolly base tune, but every time I do I end up moving back towards the base tune settings and loving it.

    The highest compliment I can pay a shock is that I forget about it when riding and only remember to think about it when bench racing at the pub over pints.
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  16. #116
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    My Endo came with the Fox DPS, and yes the trail setting did feel more efficient, but it did not make riding any faster, except on very smooth sections. In the end I left it open on all the trails.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    My Endo came with the Fox DPS, and yes the trail setting did feel more efficient, but it did not make riding any faster, except on very smooth sections. In the end I left it open on all the trails.
    I can see that. Speed is never a factor I consider when defining what I like about a ride. I'm perfectly happy to chug along in the lowest gear I have uphill all day long (having one bad knee plays a part in the size of gearing I can push without pain anyways). Sometimes though like the situation I described above I need a boost to get up something and thats when the very low AS is most apparent because in that situation sitting and spinning is not gonna work
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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I'll be interested to hear if you get the Avy shock re-tuned. The Avy'd shock on my Nomad revolutionized the ride, but all the feedback I got about Avying my Mach 6 shock was that it wasn't enough of an improvement to be worth it.
    I can see that, the leverage curve on the Mach 6 flattens near its sag this would keep you sitting higher on the bike. The Mach 6 would pedal like my Heckler with high AS figures, the geo however would likely improve rear wheel traction since it has a shorter CS and being taller your weight distribution would be better. Than mine on the Heckler.
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  19. #119
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    Transitioning from seated to standing is always going to be better on a higher anti-squat bike (It will support you more). However, higher anti-squats, in my experience, don't ride slow tech seated as well due to the higher chain tension at work. Some people like to stay seated and shift. Others prefer to get out of the saddle and handle some climbs that way. Pick your poison, there is no magic. J

  20. #120
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    I've had my Warden since February now and feel I can chime in about my climbing experiences. My riding area has a nice variation of easy fireroad climbs to washed out fireroad climbs to some very technical climbs. When I first got the Warden out on the trails I'd use the climb switch on the smooth climbs but soon I felt that even the small bumps would feel like I was hanging up a bit. So I started leaving it wide open and that feeling disappeared and my climbing was faster than ever. On the technical climb side, same thing, climb times are faster than ever and I've made some tech moves that I've never come close on before. I never touch the climb switch any more, it's always wide open. What can I say, I'm a fan.

  21. #121
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    ^^ One of the reasons I had considered an avy coil. With an out of the seat sprint on tech terrain I have clipped my pedals and gone over the bars several times. I have become one of those assholes using STRAVA.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttchad View Post
    ^^ One of the reasons I had considered an avy coil. With an out of the seat sprint on tech terrain I have clipped my pedals and gone over the bars several times. I have become one of those assholes using STRAVA.
    4 bars bob like crazy out of the saddle. Yes you can tune some of this out, but its all a compromise.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    4 bars bob like crazy out of the saddle. Yes you can tune some of this out, but its all a compromise.
    Bob like crazy... What are you talking about?

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by davet View Post
    On the technical climb side, same thing, climb times are faster than ever and I've made some tech moves that I've never come close on before. I never touch the climb switch any more, it's always wide open. What can I say, I'm a fan.
    Yup. When I bought my Knolly I was unsure how it would climb. Now I am getting up all the crazy tech lines I didn't think were possible. I just point and crank. So much fun.

    Just put my DWlink bike up for sale. Plan to sell my VPP bike next.
    Safe riding,

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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Yup. When I bought my Knolly I was unsure how it would climb. Now I am getting up all the crazy tech lines I didn't think were possible. I just point and crank. So much fun.

    Just put my DWlink bike up for sale. Plan to sell my VPP bike next.

    Blasphemy!

    My Endo is on a slow build assembly line, mostly waiting for a rainy day. Between my M6 and DH rig I've been on the trails and out of the shop.

    Now you've got me eager to finish it up. But, maybe I shouldn't, and should stay on the M6 longer - might not like it as much once on the Endo.


    So, what is it specifically that's got you thinking bout parting with the M6? Geo, suspension, what ?

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Yup. When I bought my Knolly I was unsure how it would climb. Now I am getting up all the crazy tech lines I didn't think were possible. I just point and crank. So much fun.

    Just put my DWlink bike up for sale. Plan to sell my VPP bike next.
    All about that traction boss!

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Blasphemy!

    My Endo is on a slow build assembly line, mostly waiting for a rainy day. Between my M6 and DH rig I've been on the trails and out of the shop.

    Now you've got me eager to finish it up. But, maybe I shouldn't, and should stay on the M6 longer - might not like it as much once on the Endo.


    So, what is it specifically that's got you thinking bout parting with the M6? Geo, suspension, what ?


    Sounds like you have great bikes to choose from. No need to rush the build. The Mach 6 is a sweet bike!

    When I got the Endo I was concerned how it would climb and how I'd get on with a bike with 25mm less travel out back. Well I am climbing better than ever - especially on tech and that's what gives me the most satisfaction...cleaning hard steep chunky climbs.

    Surprisingly I am also faster going down blasting through roots and rocks. When things get uber chunky I am running out of travel and skipping across the top of the trail, but for my local trails that's not super frequent. I am giving up some playfulness for that speed and zig zagging through the really tight spots is a bit more work, but I'm feeling okay about the trade offs.

    So the Endo is killing it up and down while putting a huge grin on my face. That's part one of the equation.

    Part two is that I thought about what I'd buy as a second bike if I was starting from scratch and the thing I'd like most is a 29er....just to taste the forbidden fruit and see what the darkside is like. Possibly a longer travel 29er because I can see the Endo being undergunned on the desert chunk trails I love to ride when I road trip as well as the gnarlier BC trails on the other side of the Strait of Georgia.

    Part three is I want to retire soonish and my work just went part-time. Ideal for recreation, but not ideal for having lots of $$ to throw at a new bike. So when push came to shove I decided I was ready to sell the Pivot and the Nomad to fund a new 29er.

    In a perfect world I'd keep those two bikes as I still love them and I'd just add a 29er to the mix, but that doesn't seem reasonable financially.
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coleman22 View Post
    All about that traction boss!
    Ha! This is not a lie. It is pretty amazing.
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    Vik
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  29. #129
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    The Warden C is one of the best climbing bikes I've ever owned .

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHROMAG19 View Post
    The Warden C is one of the best climbing bikes I've ever owned .
    I considered moving all my Mach 6 parts to a Warden as it would be the cheapest move and get me some longer travel chunk crushing capability with 4x4 suspension, but I hunger for the illicit pleasure of a 29er.

    My GF killing the climbs on her Warden was one of the data points that pushed me over the edge to get a Knolly.

    What shock are you running?
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  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I considered moving all my Mach 6 parts to a Warden as it would be the cheapest move and get me some longer travel chunk crushing capability with 4x4 suspension, but I hunger for the illicit pleasure of a 29er.

    My GF killing the climbs on her Warden was one of the data points that pushed me over the edge to get a Knolly.

    What shock are you running?
    DVO Topaz. It's AWESOME!

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHROMAG19 View Post
    Bob like crazy... What are you talking about?
    Everybody knows, who doesn't have owner bias and does a cross-comparison that a 4-bar bike will bob like mad without some type of low speed compression dampening or lock-out. You could make an argument for traction on technical climbs seated, but standing and mashing, or fireroads you are going to lose a lot of energy on a bike like Knolly or similar 4 bar that doesn't have a rearward axle path.

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHROMAG19 View Post
    Bob like crazy... What are you talking about?
    Don't feed the troll.
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  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHROMAG19 View Post
    DVO Topaz. It's AWESOME!
    I've yet to try a DVO product. I'll have to at least demo a bike with their stuff on it and see what it's like. There is so many good suspension products out there today. It's a great time to be a mountain biker.
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  35. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    You need to think about where Knolly is coming from. Yeah, not all climbs are on logging/fire roads, but here in BC it's pretty common.
    Then you might be interested in this kickstarter?

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...?ref=discovery
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Then you might be interested in this kickstarter?

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...?ref=discovery
    Not really. Flip the switch manually at the start of a logging road climb and flip it the other way once at the start of singletrack the trail for a logging road climb ride.

    For a trail only ride leave it in open the whole time.

    FWIW - The same protocol I use with my DWLink and VPP bikes.

    I can't see any need to complicated the bike with such a contraption and I want the shock open when climbing unless I am on a road. Looks like a solution in search of a problem to me.
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  37. #137
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    I'm running the DVO Topaz on my Warden C as I've mentioned and the only the only issue I have is if the shock is in the wide open position on a "STEEP" climb. Pretty much zero bob anytime else.

  38. #138
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    Yup, I use the CS only a few times a ride, on the longer road sections, sometimes just once. On the trail I'm working the dropper very often, and definitely don't want the CS firmed up on the trail.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  39. #139
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    I agree, having the suspension open and active while seated and climbing up rough technical terrain feels good to me. Not going for the KOM, just happy to make the climb.

  40. #140
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    Try standing and mashing... bike will bob like crazy

  41. #141
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    Not nearly enough pictures in this thread.
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  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    Try standing and mashing... bike will bob like crazy
    Or maybe try not riding it like a road bike to let the suspension work as designed?

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    Most professional mountain bikers stand and mash.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    Most professional mountain bikers stand and mash.
    I wasn't a fan of the Warden, but, man, I'm even less of a fan of your $hit-talking. You've belabored your point. Why not give it a rest and let others enjoy their bikes?
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    Why not give it a rest and let others enjoy their bikes?
    He's a troll. Doesn't have to have ever seen the bike in question to have an expert opinion.

    I've tried a bunch of bikes I didn't like....actually tried them....and I don't spend my free time telling those owners why their bikes aren't as good as they think they are. You know you are old school when you actually ride the bike you are talking about on the internet.

    I was so crazy I bought one just to find out what it was like.
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  46. #146
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    Good thing I'm not a professional mountain biker then, eh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blatant View Post
    I wasn't a fan of the Warden, but, man, I'm even less of a fan of your $hit-talking. You've belabored your point. Why not give it a rest and let others enjoy their bikes?
    So unless I sing the Knollys praises with unending devotion, I'm a shit-talker and troll? Makes a lot of sense.

  48. #148
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    You guys get offended far too easily, relax man.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    So unless I sing the Knollys praises with unending devotion, I'm a shit-talker and troll? Makes a lot of sense.
    Nah... just know what you're talking about .

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    So unless I sing the Knollys praises with unending devotion, I'm a shit-talker and troll? Makes a lot of sense.
    You haven't said one useful thing in a few pages. Random cranky 4-bar rants do not count as meaningful discussion.

    To be honest you are a shit talking troll. At least in this sub-forum.

    It's time to move on.
    Safe riding,

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  51. #151
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    Ive said plenty of things that Bike Mag reviewers agreed with and even Knolly dealers about the climbing performance. If you cant win on facts attack the person right?

  52. #152
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    Name one thing ive said that was not corroborated by other independent reviewers.

  53. #153
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    How many Knollys have you ridden vege? Which particular models and shock set ups have you owned?

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    How many Knollys have you ridden vege? Which particular models and shock set ups have you owned?
    Does one have to ride them, or will another FSR bike with the same or better kinematics suffice in making an efficiency determination? What is the special magic that is designed into the Knolly that would make it better than it's kinematics in this regard?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Does one have to ride them, or will another FSR bike with the same or better kinematics suffice in making an efficiency determination? What is the special magic that is designed into the Knolly that would make it better than it's kinematics in this regard?
    Definitely no magic with the Knolly or any other design.. but yeah, one should probably have ridden the bike in question before making claims about its climbing behavior as kinematics are only part of the equation.


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  56. #156
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    What are you trying to 'win'? Will you let it go and move on if we all agree that you have won the interwebs today? I am going to guess not....

  57. #157
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    I have a few friends who have owned Knolly and been at Interbike outdoor demo more than a few times. I know enough to back up my claims. They are nice bikes no doubt but im still gonna be straight about climbing.

  58. #158
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    Doubt it....

  59. #159
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    Who is trying to win anything? If anything Knolly owners are trying to prevent me from saying my observations of the bike.

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    Doubt what and why?

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    Ive said plenty of things that Bike Mag reviewers agreed with and even Knolly dealers about the climbing performance. If you cant win on facts attack the person right?
    Judging by this comment you are attempting to win something. They arent preventing you from saying anything, they are simply tired of your repeated 'observation'. You have said your piece, time to let it go no?

  62. #162
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    Let what go? The title of this thread is about climbing. If you dont want to read about climbing traits of the bikes just dont visit the thread instead of trying to silence anyone who doesnt blindly follow the company line.

  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    Let what go?
    The trolling. Repeating the same cranky 4-bar rant over and over and over.
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    Ignoring the e-fight that this thread has turned into, I was teaching on my Warden Carbon yesterday and ended up riding an extended fire road climb 4 times in a row while our students were shuttled. It's a fairly steep road, and I have to say that I was super happy to have the compression switch on my DVO Topaz. On tech climbs I actually appreciate the active nature of the rear suspension, but on the extended road climbs I tend to reach for the compression switch.

    The "climb" mode on the Topaz is pretty rad though, still breaks away nicely for unanticipated bigger hits but the compression support results in virtually no suspension movement while pedaling at a smooth clip.

    After timing myself on the climbs, I'm about as fast on climbs with my Warden as I was on my old Following. Difference is, I like to throw the climb switch on with the Warden while I used to just leave the Following in the "open" position. It's a minor inconvenience for the awesome predictability of the bike heading downhill.

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    Let what go? The title of this thread is about climbing. If you dont want to read about climbing traits of the bikes just dont visit the thread instead of trying to silence anyone who doesnt blindly follow the company line.
    I think the point is you are being negative about the climbing traits of a bike you've never ridden which might get under people's skin.

    At least you are being honest about that though, if you're trolling you could easily just say you've ridden tons of Knolly's and they all suck at climbing.


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  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by zhendo View Post
    I was teaching on my Warden Carbon yesterday and ended up riding an extended fire road climb 4 times in a row while our students were shuttled.
    I think your were doing this wrong
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Does one have to ride them, or will another FSR bike with the same or better kinematics suffice in making an efficiency determination?
    Yeah, I think they should. Or at the very least admit the limits of their experience when disagreeing with several people who have experience on both higher AS DW-ink bikes as well as the 4x4 system in question.
    I'm sure you'd have your knickers in a twist if someone was bagging your beloved RFX based on their experience riding an old Ibis...

    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    Its funny the guys in the Knolly forum have convinced themselves that their bikes outpedal DW bikes... case study in owner bias.

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Does one have to ride them, or will another FSR bike with the same or better kinematics suffice in making an efficiency determination? What is the special magic that is designed into the Knolly that would make it better than it's kinematics in this regard?
    If you want to make an observation once in a thread about 4-bar bikes in general fine. But, continually repeating the same drivel and not having ridden the bike in question you are going on and on about is lame and adds nothing to the discussion. If this was a general suspension thread I wouldn't argue about it, but it's a specific thread for discussing how Knollys climb.

    I didn't look at any suspension charts when I bought a Knolly. I looked at the people I rode with and how they were performing on their bikes [several switching from DWLink bikes] and I spent the money to buy one and really try it.

    I love to climb fast and clean tech. I hate flicking switches on a ride. I am selling by DWLink bike and keeping the Knolly. I can have pretty much any bike I want with a bling build and I am sticking with the Knolly.

    I think that says loads more about how they perform than VeggieTroll's repetitive drivel.

    I have ridden 4 bar bikes, VPP bikes, DWLink bikes, DW Delta in some cases a bunch of different models of each and while you can make some generalizations each implementation of a particular suspension design can be quite different so I think talking in great length about a bike you have never ridden makes no sense.

    Even for the bikes I have demo'd I don't spend my time in those threads going on and on about them because I know my perspective is limited.

    To answer your question about what makes Knolly's special...I don't know exactly, but I do know I am fast on mine up, fast on mine down and I am super stoked to ride it each time....hence selling my other bikes.
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  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Yeah, I think they should. Or at the very least admit the limits of their experience when disagreeing with several people who have experience on both higher AS DW-ink bikes as well as the 4x4 system in question.
    I'm sure you'd have your knickers in a twist if someone was bagging your beloved RFX based on their experience riding an old Ibis...



    Luckily for you, I have significant experience on both. From Horst link specializeds, to azonic, to iron horse, to turner, not counting all the Horst link bikes I've demoed. If that old Ibis had the same kinematics or they understood the differences between, I'm sure that person would have valid input. In this case, it's not old vs new, it's the kinematics. An older bike could have better, or worse. I think we've moved past the magic stage where manufactures would fill us with disinformation. There are a few that still do, but not to the same extent and now there are ways of understanding how the bikes work that just didn't exist years ago. We can predict the behavior quite accurately.

  70. #170
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    I wonder why Dave Weagle has 3 platforms. Hmmmmm. Maybe different applications. Anti-squat profiles vary throughout and within all suspension designs. Any generalization is a gross over simplification. There is several different DW variations within Pivot models alone! Chris, do you want to chime in? LOL

  71. #171
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    I currently own a 26" Endo (never selling this bike) and the new RFX. I've had the Endo for 4 years and bought the RFX when it first came out over a year ago. I've also owned a Chilcotin for about a year. My 2 cents:

    As other's have said, Knolly's have a compliant pedaling feel that digs in with tons of traction. I'm not a masher and tend to have a smoother pedal stroke so the 4 x 4 really gels with my riding style. I could see why someone who has a hard sprinting/mashing style might not like it though. But this can be mitigated by shock choice/set up. Climbing never felt lacking or inefficient. It's just a different approach/philosophy and that's what makes Knolly so special to the people who gel with the bikes.

    The RFX is a great bike too. A little too much anti-squat for my taste but I was able to mitigate it with the low compression settings of a DBair CS. I like it a lot now. The RFX rewards a strong, mashing pedaling style in my experience and opinion. It shoots forward with every pedal stroke and I can feel the extra pedal-feedback.

    Both bikes are great, just pick your poison. Both climb great just with different manners and intentions. I think where Knolly really shines is in the whole package. Noel has the geometry dialed on his bikes and everything just works together really well. I sure hope he is coming out with a carbon 27.5 Endo soon.

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    We can predict the behavior quite accurately.
    You don't have to predict anything. You can either ride the bike in question or get feedback from people who have.

    What I don't understand is why people with no experience with the bike in question feel such a compulsion to express an opinion about the bike to the point where they argue with the folks who are actually riding them?

    What's the point? Contribute to threads where you actually have some experience with the specific topic being discussed. It's not like there aren't enough conversations going on at MTBR at any given time.

    I do QC for a living and I bust apart people's theories daily with actual data and experiments. A theory is a fine starting point, but in and of itself it's of limited value. The fact you think a bike will behave a certain way doesn't mean it will. There are a myriad of factors that influence how a bike goes from point A to point B.

    The way my Endo rides is not how the "theorists" are describing it. Thank god I actually tried the bike and didn't just listen to talking heads with no actual experience with it.
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  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    We can predict the behavior quite accurately.
    So why is there such a discrepancy between what you and your mate veggibiker predict and what the people who actually ride the bikes seem to experience?

  74. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    So why is there such a discrepancy between what you and your mate veggibiker predict and what the people who actually ride the bikes seem to experience?
    Given that our predictions are confirmed by the reviews and some of the riders in this thread, I would say it's mostly the perception that what you own can't possibly be any better.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  75. #175
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    Knolly Climbing Behavior

    Folks you're feeding. By way of participating in a manufacturers specific forum about a product you don't own and whining about said product your credibility is already questionable. It's also really strange, I think you both secretly want a Knolly and perhaps your participation here is somehow satisfying some masturbatory urge to ride on the dark side... Hey, no need to beat... umm around the bush come on in the water is fine.


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  76. #176
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    I am almost convinced that not everyone knows how to pedal.
    Pedaling is a little more complicated than just spinning the cranks.


    Yes, Warden climbs pretty effectively (at least better, compared to my previous bikes, banshee spitfire V2 & Mondraker Dune carbon XR** - all 3 with the same chainring / cassette

    ** and Dune is very good both UP & Downhill
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Knolly Climbing Behavior-img_20170528_174901.jpg  


  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntinos P View Post
    I am almost convinced that not everyone knows how to pedal.
    Pedaling is a little more complicated than just spinning the cranks.
    All that goes right out the window when things get hot and heavy, such as in a race. Lockouts on modern XC bikes are so aggressive that it matters little what type of suspension design you use at the highest expert and pro levels, that doesn't affect the majority of riders of course, but as far as pedaling, you are furiously trying to get every single bit of rotational movement translated into forward movement and controlling the pedal stroke in a mountain race (constantly going up, down, grade changes, turns, body position changes, etc.) is an exercise in futility IMO. I just had a race last night, but I've noticed this before. On long fire-roads, you might be able to put a little more attention to pedal stroke, but on the trails and especially trying to go fast, not realistic at all. The faster you try to go, the less this makes sense. This is not to say that concentrating on certain muscle groups is a bad idea, there are ways to make your pedal stroke better, but out on the trail, especially when trying to go fast, a "smooth" pedal stroke goes out the window.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  78. #178
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    Fu@# it, I'm selling mine
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Given that our predictions are confirmed by the reviews and some of the riders in this thread, I would say it's mostly the perception that what you own can't possibly be any better.
    I didn't like the way the Pivot Switchblade climbed. I'll take my Knolly over it everyday of the week, but I am not in the Switchblade threads bashing it over and over based on my limited experience.

    I currently own a Pivot [DWlink], SC [VPP] and I can buy any bike I want. If my Knolly didn't climb well I'd sell it yesterday and buy something else.

    That doesn't mean everyone is going to like the Knolly suspension design and that's okay, but for love of god if you haven't even ridden the bike go find someplace else to make noise where you actually have some experience with the bike in question.
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  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I didn't like the way the Pivot Switchblade climbed. I'll take my Knolly over it everyday of the week, but I am not in the Switchblade threads bashing it over and over based on my limited experience.

    I currently own a Pivot [DWlink], SC [VPP] and I can buy any bike I want. If my Knolly didn't climb well I'd sell it yesterday and buy something else.

    That doesn't mean everyone is going to like the Knolly suspension design and that's okay, but for love of god if you haven't even ridden the bike go find someplace else to make noise where you actually have some experience with the bike in question.
    I read an article about the switchblade once. I also looked at a chart of the suspension curve. I also squat on the toilet, and therefore feel qualified to talk about anti-squat characteristics.

    Combine all these factors together, and I am well qualified to opine on the virtues and vices of the switchblade suspension design. I have been trolling... err... commenting in the pivot forums for a while now, but since you own one, I should tell you that the switchblade sucks for everything. I can't believe that you would even buy one. Who cares if you like it or not. You dont even know what you should like or what bikes should feel like when you ride them.

    I dare you to find an article in a mountain bike magazine that disagrees with me.

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  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    All that goes right out the window when things get hot and heavy, such as in a race.
    I have to completely disagree with this, with the exception of low-level/amateur races. Any serious mountain bike racer knows you do not want your form to break down while putting the power down. All you are doing then is wasting energy and tiring yourself out more. The exception to this would be a sprint to the finish line where energy conservation is no longer an issue.

    Look at DH pros sprinting out of the gate, their pedaling form is very smooth while putting down max power. Look at the enduro pros when they hit a pedaling section, same case.

    There is a correct way to pedal a bike, and that should not go away when putting down power. If it does, you are doing it wrong. I was a collegiate 100m dash sprinter...arguably the most powerful activity your body can do. If you do not stay loose and maintain your form while putting down 100% effort, you are slowing yourself down...this is the same with any activity.

    If you cant maintain form under max effort, you need to train more, hit the gym, or do some purposeful practice to improve that weakness of your riding.

  82. #182
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    This is all very interesting and entertaining. Heathly banter coming from the opposite ends often produces a bettter understanding of the issue.

    Points maybe not considered...


    I'd say how well a modern bike's suspension design pedals is secondary to two things... the motor and the trail.

    You may argue the motor is a constant. I say it may be the most variable part of the "how well does the bike pedal" equation. I know it is for me. From day to day I have a lot of variability of how much horsepower I can generate.

    The trail is also a huge factor. Different horses for different courses. Also, maybe it is more important/fun to slowly clean all the tech, than it is to finish first.


    Out of the saddle hammering will result in "energy loss" on any FS bike, even those with the highest AS, because we are all riding relatively long travel forks. Yes, forks aren't very, if at all, affected by true 'squat' forces but bob on your fork is a component of energy loss on those tough, out of the saddle techy climbs. This alone creates a significant variable to the equation when trying to quantify how much "less efficient" an FSR design may be. (And its already been mentioned, all 4 bars are not created equal).


    All these factors generate so much variability in the equation that the difference between a well executed, modern design may not make as much difference as the marketing departments would have you think. After all, a bike company can't market your horse power or your trails.


    My main AM/trail bike for the last 4 seasons has been a Mach 6 with an X2 rear shock. One of the highest modern AS bikes out there. Our tough climbs are almost all out of the saddle so it's slack STA is almost a non-issue for me. It climbs well.

    The bike I'm building up right now is an Endo with a CC Coil.

    Our trails are filled with super steep, high tech, climbs that have, with out rain, about a 50% sucess rate. They are an excellent proving ground to evaluate a bike's climbing prowess. I have as much fun climbing tech as I do on the DH. I looking forward to seeing how the Endo performs.

  83. #183
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    Do NOT backtalk Jayem in regard to suspension kinematics or race fitness. Or anything else for that matter. He'll pummel you with words. Trust me.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  84. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    All that goes right out the window when things get hot and heavy, such as in a race. Lockouts on modern XC bikes are ...
    Jesus, we're comparing AM/trail bikes to XC racing now? I'm out...

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by David R View Post
    Jesus, we're comparing AM/trail bikes to XC racing now? I'm out...
    Wait, so they don't climb like XC bikes?

    A conversation is a conversation. Some people take it personally. Vikb took it so personally he had to negative-rep me. Whatever, it's just a conversation on the internet. I try to hold back the negative-reps unless someone is inciting violence or something crazy like that. No bike is perfect. I think a few people in this thread just have the idea that there is some denial as to a bike's weakness. My last bike, the E29, was in the same boat. I knew that getting in to it from the beginning, but nothing changed that trait.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    ..

    Jayem is just bitter that Turner is on its last legs. Dont pay any attention to him. He lives in a cabin and has rarely spent time outside his farm life.

  87. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Some people take it personally. Vikb took it so personally he had to negative-rep me.
    I don't neg rep people often and only when they are in a thread to troll or they are abusive. When you get asked politely to give it a rest by multiple people and you don't what do you think will happen?

    Other than trolling for an argument there is no continued purpose for being in this thread. If that's how you get your kicks that's sad.

    It's not personal. It's like any community space when people start stirring up conflict for no purpose, but the conflict itself they get people pushing back.

    It's unfortunate that amongst the many reasonable people on MTBR there are a few tools like you and Veggie out to stir up shit for the sake of amusement.
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  88. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I don't neg rep people often and only when they are in a thread to troll or they are abusive. When you get asked politely to give it a rest by multiple people and you don't what do you think will happen?

    Other than trolling for an argument there is no continued purpose for being in this thread. If that's how you get your kicks that's sad.

    It's not personal. It's like any community space when people start stirring up conflict for no purpose, but the conflict itself they get people pushing back.

    It's unfortunate that amongst the many reasonable people on MTBR there are a few tools like you and Veggie out to stir up shit for the sake of amusement.
    Like I said, it's a conversation. If you take it differently, I can't help you.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  89. #189
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    For a viking you are quite the cry baby. Perhaps you could ask yourself why you are so upset over some mild criticisms of a bicycle?

  90. #190
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    I win.

    No, I win.

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    We all win if we are alive and healthy. Maybe we should call vikb "CRYb."

    Put things in perspective, people are dying of starvation, and CRYb is all bent out of shape for saying his bike isnt the best climber.

  92. #192
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    My comment wasn't directed at vikb.

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    We all win if we are alive and healthy. Maybe we should call vikb "CRYb."

    Put things in perspective, people are dying of starvation, and CRYb is all bent out of shape for saying his bike isnt the best climber.
    i doubt, from your posts, that you are capable of "putting things in perspective."

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  94. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    We all win if we are alive and healthy. Maybe we should call vikb "CRYb."

    Put things in perspective, people are dying of starvation, and CRYb is all bent out of shape for saying his bike isnt the best climber.
    Putting things in perspective, how terrible must your and Jayem's lives be that you are so obsessed with carrying on for weeks now about whether bikes that you don't even own can climb well?

    What do you care? Presumably you have a bike that you enjoy to ride. So do I. Mine happens to be a Knolly. Get over it.

    And the hilarity is that the OP who started this thread ended up buying a Knolly. He seems to enjoy it too. It is interesting to me that the fact people enjoy riding Knolly bikes troubles you and Jayem so much that you incessantly "contribute" to this discussion.



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  95. #195
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    Be happy. We all have another troll to add to the ignore list.
    Just like a raindrop, I was born to fall.

  96. #196
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    Saying a Knolly isnt the best climber... blasphemy indeed...

  97. #197
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    The 4 bar debate vs dual link has been going on for decades... some people enjoy it... if you dont enjoy it there are plenty of other threads for you to visit. You act as if someone is forcing you to read these posts. Quite strange you are so obsessed on a topic you claim to disdain. Why not allow people to express their opinions, debate, and discuss ? Simply because you disagree doesnt mean we should shut out the exchange of information.

  98. #198
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    Ive got about 25 rides on my Delirium now, and i was a little worried about how much of a handful it would be climbing as its my only bike. Its really obvious now that the difference between "climbs like shit" and "climbs like a goat" is pretty minimal for a self described intermediate sport rider. I only ride vancouver/island/pnw so take that into consideration, im riding what the bike was made for. Im coming off a string of nice bikes (2011 delirium, 2014 altitude, 2016 bmc trailfox, and some time riding on a knolly endo 650b, transition patrol, devinci troy, spartan, norco range, trek remedy 29, devinci wilson , norco aurum), and i can say for where and how i ride the whole debate is really splitting hairs. Climbing geometry has been the biggest difference, weight the most overrated, and "pedal efficiency" the least tangible. The new delirium has gotten me up the most climbs so far, and the only real penalty i notice is when i check strava 3 hrs later and see that i was a minute or 2 slower on an hour climb ( but i was off bike for 6months and that gap is now closing too).

    Of all those bikes and suspension designs, the only ones that i found had a real advantage on the climb were the 29ers, and that had more to do with the rollover and grip then anything else. I really noticed switching back to 650b how lazy of a climber i had become, but after a handful of rides the traction of the Delirium began to show through again.

    One problem i found with the multi-link bikes is also written on knollys website. You cant turn off antisquat. My BMC climbed well, to the point that the climbswitch on the cc inline was almost redundant. But you paid for that on the descent, with it never really opening up the way i wanted (must be noted that every bike was held against my first Delirium as the yard stick by which all bikes were measured, as it was the first really eye opening bike i had owned). If i had never owned my old delirium i probably would have been happy on any one of those bikes, but instead when blasting really rough steep loose North shore trails i was always thinking "this can be better".

    Now im on the new Deli, i have a coil with climbswitch and it makes a noticeable change in the feel of the rear, but i still typically leave it wide open unless im climbing mt.highway on Fromme. The descents have yet to leave me wanting.

    If you say things like "i need all the help i can get" climbing, then the help you need likely cant be bought. you need to ride more. A more efficient bike is good for a dozen rides until you settle in with it. Same goes for weight, feels great until youre used to it. You get a new light bike, feel really spry for a while, then being an average person wind up losing a month of riding due to life or a shit winter, come back to it and find you're not climbing like you used to . Someone suggests maybe going to a carbon frame? hey how bout carbon wheels? Have you tried a turner, i hear they pedal great! The hamster wheel rolls on.

  99. #199
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    Bikes are just tools... no tool is magic...we should be free to have honest exchanges about strengths and weaknesses... anyone who says one design can do it all is feeding you marketing propaganda. All im saying is lets be real about the way we think about our bikes... this isnt a cult... critical analysis is a good thing.. not just about bikes but pretty much anything we buy

  100. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    Problem is that there is almost no product differentiation anymore with most bikes having multiple brands offering similar products and all riding incredibly well. When an industry reaches that stage, the only way for the competitors to compete is through capital and operational management efficiency. Unless Turner comes out with a new, independent proprietary suspension design that has qualitative differences over the market's offering expect to see the current trend continue.
    So to summarise; Veggibiker is a Homer who's mad because Knolly are doing what he wishes Turner would do, and Jayem needs a bike that makes up for his poor pedaling technique during XC races. And anyone who rides a Knolly is a brainwashed sheep who still thinks the world is a globe.


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