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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    I have climbed 42km this year on my coil shocked Endo. Seems ok so far
    I climbed to the top of the continental divide, twice, on my E29 (I live at sea level) in Colorado. That doesn't mean it climbed well. I bought a bike with suspension to use the suspension, even on the climbs
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  2. #102
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    My point is, if it didn't climb well I would have noticed by now.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    On the logging roads the CS eliminates any bobbing, and on the trail it has no impact.
    Bingo, that's the beauty of the system explained in a single sentence. Can't believe people still judge the climbing ability of a 6" travel AM bike on how smoothly they pedal on gravel roads.

  4. #104
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    If the CS switch has no impact, do you run it all the time, on the downhill and everywhere?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    If the CS switch has no impact, do you run it all the time, on the downhill and everywhere?
    Why are you so obsessed with trying to convince people who love the Knolly bikes that they shouldn't love their bikes?

    I am a mainly casual observer to the forum, but dude, go ride your bike. I am happy that you found a bike that works for you. I have too. The end.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by drboudreaux View Post
    Why are you so obsessed with trying to convince people who love the Knolly bikes that they shouldn't love their bikes?

    I am a mainly casual observer to the forum, but dude, go ride your bike. I am happy that you found a bike that works for you. I have too. The end.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
    I did ride today.

    Knolly Climbing Behavior-19961665_10101205722250138_742785938053182619_n.jpg

    Knolly Climbing Behavior-19989690_10101205722349938_2549209154250340154_n.jpg
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  7. #107
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    Why do you keep saying that? You think me and my friends have never rode one?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by drboudreaux View Post
    Why are you so obsessed with trying to convince people who love the Knolly bikes that they shouldn't love their bikes?
    He's just upset that Turner are no longer the cool brand that all the kids dream of owning...


  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I did ride today.

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    Go buy some lights for your bike and ride again.

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  10. #110
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    I meant that the CS is always off on the trail.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    I meant that the CS is always off on the trail.
    Yup. I run the shock full open on the trail and the 4x4 climbs great. Like Travis if my Knolly didn't climb great it would be sold and I'd hang my parts off another frame. My last 3 FS bikes have all been different brands. I buy what works amazing - I'm not chasing a brand logo.

    What I am doing is actually owning and riding the bikes in question...not theorizing based on a geo chart or a suspension curve chart. Crazy I know!
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  12. #112
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    Knolly Climbing Behavior

    I've had enough time on the Endorphin now to share some thoughts FWIW. First I think the definition of "climbs well" will be different for everyone. My other bike is a Santa Cruz Heckler (latest edition) it has a very linear anti-squat "curve" that generally keeps it north of 100% and as such has the positive and negative attributes of that type of design. The biggest difference I notice vs the Heckler is when I am climbing on trail vs on road. The behaviour tends to be particularly noticeable when I go down a small hill and then need to climb up another but misjudge or I am not able to produce enough momentum due to the short distance to get up the other side without pedalling. In these instances I usually stand up and mash, doing this on the Endorphin feels like I'm pushing through mud (particularly if Iím in a harder gear and the suspension is under compression; which it would be when I stand up and mash). On sustained climbs where I can keep my cadence the same and I am seated most of the time its not really an issue and can actually be a benefit due to the great traction. In this type of scenario the Heckler will react to pedal influence immediately and push me forward while raising my bottom bracket (a side benefit on rocky climbs due to increasing pedal clearance) the draw back to this is the possibility of loosing traction and getting hung up on square edge rocks due to the suspension ďlocking outĒ though this can be mitigated somewhat by running a good rear tire and lower air pressures. The Heckler also has a longer rear end by about 10mm so this may also be a factor in increased traction loss.

    Iíll also note that none of this is a surprise to me because I am a chart analyzer and these characteristics are exactly as the designer of these bikes intended. Yes Iím a bike geek and have a copy of Linkage X3 I use to run bikes through the virtual numbers. Despite that I also believe that the bike needs to be ridden before one can make any real assessment of how it rides and whether you will like it or not. Iíve now thankfully had the opportunity to try two bikes at opposite ends of the suspension kinematics spectrum and ultimately it comes down to what compromises you are wanting to deal with for your ride because for sure all designs have them.
    Last edited by geraldooka; 4 Days Ago at 08:37 PM.
    Michael

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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    I've had enough time on the Endorphin now to share some thoughts FWIW.
    How did you find the difference between the stock DBA Inline and the Avy'd shock you have now?
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  14. #114
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    The Avy'd shock lacks any platform capabilities outside of what is built into the custom mid valving done by Craig. As such it moves quite freely even with the compression on full the Inline of course has the CS switch which can mitigate much of this movement (though I still have the issue I described above just less so). This is the design intent of the shock so I fully expected it to behave this way. The Knolly has a very progressive leverage curve vs the Heckler which is actually regressive (meaning it gets easier to push the shock the further into travel the bike is). So far I think Craig's philosophy works better on the Heckler than on the Knolly, having said that I haven't discussed my experiences with him yet and he may have some advice to provide that can change this particular behaviour on the Knolly. Since much of my climbing involves dirt roads right now its not really a deal breaker. I tried Jean's Endorphin out which is running the Fox DPS and in lock out or even Trail it was noticeably more efficient than my bike keeping me higher up and "sprinting" me forward so to speak. On the downs on my Avy'd Endorphin the rear is pure bliss and despite having 20mm less travel the Knolly is a smoother ride than the Heckler. Something I attribute partly to having 70% lower pedal kick across a wider gear range. Compromises...
    Michael

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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by geraldooka View Post
    So far I think Craig's philosophy works better on the Heckler than on the Knolly, having said that I haven't discussed my experiences with him yet and he may have some advice to provide that can change this particular behaviour on the Knolly.
    I'll be interested to hear if you get the Avy shock re-tuned. The Avy'd shock on my Nomad revolutionized the ride, but all the feedback I got about Avying my Mach 6 shock was that it wasn't enough of an improvement to be worth it.

    I only use the CCDBA[IL] CS when on fireroads, but man do I like that it controls the compression and rebound instead of just the LSC like other shocks I've had. I held off on getting a CC shock due to the problems they were having with the Inline, but now that I do have one it's super nice.

    I am a bit embarrassed how little I've deviated from the suggested Knolly base tune, but every time I do I end up moving back towards the base tune settings and loving it.

    The highest compliment I can pay a shock is that I forget about it when riding and only remember to think about it when bench racing at the pub over pints.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  16. #116
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    My Endo came with the Fox DPS, and yes the trail setting did feel more efficient, but it did not make riding any faster, except on very smooth sections. In the end I left it open on all the trails.
    I got some bad ideas in my head.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Travis Bickle View Post
    My Endo came with the Fox DPS, and yes the trail setting did feel more efficient, but it did not make riding any faster, except on very smooth sections. In the end I left it open on all the trails.
    I can see that. Speed is never a factor I consider when defining what I like about a ride. I'm perfectly happy to chug along in the lowest gear I have uphill all day long (having one bad knee plays a part in the size of gearing I can push without pain anyways). Sometimes though like the situation I described above I need a boost to get up something and thats when the very low AS is most apparent because in that situation sitting and spinning is not gonna work
    Michael

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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I'll be interested to hear if you get the Avy shock re-tuned. The Avy'd shock on my Nomad revolutionized the ride, but all the feedback I got about Avying my Mach 6 shock was that it wasn't enough of an improvement to be worth it.
    I can see that, the leverage curve on the Mach 6 flattens near its sag this would keep you sitting higher on the bike. The Mach 6 would pedal like my Heckler with high AS figures, the geo however would likely improve rear wheel traction since it has a shorter CS and being taller your weight distribution would be better. Than mine on the Heckler.
    Michael

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  19. #119
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    Transitioning from seated to standing is always going to be better on a higher anti-squat bike (It will support you more). However, higher anti-squats, in my experience, don't ride slow tech seated as well due to the higher chain tension at work. Some people like to stay seated and shift. Others prefer to get out of the saddle and handle some climbs that way. Pick your poison, there is no magic. J

  20. #120
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    I've had my Warden since February now and feel I can chime in about my climbing experiences. My riding area has a nice variation of easy fireroad climbs to washed out fireroad climbs to some very technical climbs. When I first got the Warden out on the trails I'd use the climb switch on the smooth climbs but soon I felt that even the small bumps would feel like I was hanging up a bit. So I started leaving it wide open and that feeling disappeared and my climbing was faster than ever. On the technical climb side, same thing, climb times are faster than ever and I've made some tech moves that I've never come close on before. I never touch the climb switch any more, it's always wide open. What can I say, I'm a fan.

  21. #121
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    ^^ One of the reasons I had considered an avy coil. With an out of the seat sprint on tech terrain I have clipped my pedals and gone over the bars several times. I have become one of those assholes using STRAVA.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by ttchad View Post
    ^^ One of the reasons I had considered an avy coil. With an out of the seat sprint on tech terrain I have clipped my pedals and gone over the bars several times. I have become one of those assholes using STRAVA.
    4 bars bob like crazy out of the saddle. Yes you can tune some of this out, but its all a compromise.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veggibiker View Post
    4 bars bob like crazy out of the saddle. Yes you can tune some of this out, but its all a compromise.
    Bob like crazy... What are you talking about?

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by davet View Post
    On the technical climb side, same thing, climb times are faster than ever and I've made some tech moves that I've never come close on before. I never touch the climb switch any more, it's always wide open. What can I say, I'm a fan.
    Yup. When I bought my Knolly I was unsure how it would climb. Now I am getting up all the crazy tech lines I didn't think were possible. I just point and crank. So much fun.

    Just put my DWlink bike up for sale. Plan to sell my VPP bike next.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Yup. When I bought my Knolly I was unsure how it would climb. Now I am getting up all the crazy tech lines I didn't think were possible. I just point and crank. So much fun.

    Just put my DWlink bike up for sale. Plan to sell my VPP bike next.

    Blasphemy!

    My Endo is on a slow build assembly line, mostly waiting for a rainy day. Between my M6 and DH rig I've been on the trails and out of the shop.

    Now you've got me eager to finish it up. But, maybe I shouldn't, and should stay on the M6 longer - might not like it as much once on the Endo.


    So, what is it specifically that's got you thinking bout parting with the M6? Geo, suspension, what ?

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Yup. When I bought my Knolly I was unsure how it would climb. Now I am getting up all the crazy tech lines I didn't think were possible. I just point and crank. So much fun.

    Just put my DWlink bike up for sale. Plan to sell my VPP bike next.
    All about that traction boss!

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Blasphemy!

    My Endo is on a slow build assembly line, mostly waiting for a rainy day. Between my M6 and DH rig I've been on the trails and out of the shop.

    Now you've got me eager to finish it up. But, maybe I shouldn't, and should stay on the M6 longer - might not like it as much once on the Endo.


    So, what is it specifically that's got you thinking bout parting with the M6? Geo, suspension, what ?


    Sounds like you have great bikes to choose from. No need to rush the build. The Mach 6 is a sweet bike!

    When I got the Endo I was concerned how it would climb and how I'd get on with a bike with 25mm less travel out back. Well I am climbing better than ever - especially on tech and that's what gives me the most satisfaction...cleaning hard steep chunky climbs.

    Surprisingly I am also faster going down blasting through roots and rocks. When things get uber chunky I am running out of travel and skipping across the top of the trail, but for my local trails that's not super frequent. I am giving up some playfulness for that speed and zig zagging through the really tight spots is a bit more work, but I'm feeling okay about the trade offs.

    So the Endo is killing it up and down while putting a huge grin on my face. That's part one of the equation.

    Part two is that I thought about what I'd buy as a second bike if I was starting from scratch and the thing I'd like most is a 29er....just to taste the forbidden fruit and see what the darkside is like. Possibly a longer travel 29er because I can see the Endo being undergunned on the desert chunk trails I love to ride when I road trip as well as the gnarlier BC trails on the other side of the Strait of Georgia.

    Part three is I want to retire soonish and my work just went part-time. Ideal for recreation, but not ideal for having lots of $$ to throw at a new bike. So when push came to shove I decided I was ready to sell the Pivot and the Nomad to fund a new 29er.

    In a perfect world I'd keep those two bikes as I still love them and I'd just add a 29er to the mix, but that doesn't seem reasonable financially.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coleman22 View Post
    All about that traction boss!
    Ha! This is not a lie. It is pretty amazing.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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