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  1. #1
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    Knolly 27.5 Carbon

    Do these three words go together? Is it too early to start speculating and putting in our wish lists. We've all heard talk/speculated that this may be in the works.

    What do you think? What would you like it to be? Will/can knolly do it?

    Here's what I "want" or think it should have:
    -125-140 mm (130 would be perfect for me) carbon frame (at least front triangle). With leverage ratio/suspension curve close to Endo or maybe even a little more agressive/spritely.

    -66-67 deg adjustable HA with 140 fork

    -Chainstays: <17"

    -BB height 13.1-13.6" ajustable (I wouldn't mind if it were a little less for my purposes).

    -Threaded BB (What are the advantages to pressfit again?.... exactly)

    -142mm rear spacing

    -weight 5.5 lbs with Fox CTD.

    Disclaimer: please realize that I'm not trying to tell Noel what to do or how to design a bike, I know next to nothing about running a bike company or how to design fabulous bikes or whether a bike like that would even sell enough to offset the cost of carbon molds.


    Discuss.
    Last edited by KRob; 01-09-2014 at 06:47 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Knolly 27.5 Carbon

    1) 650b
    2) Carbon
    3) 135mm rear travel
    4) 67.5 HA and designed around a 140mm fork
    5) Same ETT as the Endo
    6) Lighter than the Endo.
    7) Faster than the Endo up the hill
    8) Designed around a specific shock such as the CCDBA CS
    9) Ride like a Knolly
    10) Look like a Knolly

  3. #3
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    +1 but with a bit less travel. 125. Just to keep a nice gap between the Warden.
    The Fugitive. Ride it like you stole it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    1) 650b
    2) Carbon
    3) 135mm rear travel
    4) 67.5 HA and designed around a 140mm fork
    5) Same ETT as the Endo
    6) Lighter than the Endo.
    7) Faster than the Endo up the hill
    8) Designed around a specific shock such as the CCDBA CS
    9) Ride like a Knolly
    10) Look like a Knolly

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    The Fugitive. Ride it like you stole it.
    Possibly the best bike name. Ever. I might buy it solely on the name.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  5. #5
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    I say simply offering a 27.5 Endo & Warden in carbon would be perfect! They are far enough apart in travel to not overlap is why I left out the Chili, besides most Chili owners seem to be die hard 26" fans...

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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    sell enough to offset the cost of carbon molds.


    Discuss.
    I believe carbon molds can be upwards $100,000 per size

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    The Fugitive. Ride it like you stole it.
    +1 for Knolly Fugtive ...brilliant name ...also, made me think of Knolly Breakout ...as in Breakaway where an individual has successfully opened a gap ahead of the pack...

    Quote Originally Posted by moose1 View Post
    I believe carbon molds can be upwards $100,000 per size
    Holy sh*t, its just a lump of metal isn't it...

  8. #8
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    Dude. You're supposed to email me directly when you have ideas like this. So good.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    The Fugitive. Ride it like you stole it.
    Global Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by socalMX View Post
    I say simply offering a 27.5 Endo & Warden in carbon would be perfect! They are far enough apart in travel to not overlap is why I left out the Chili, besides most Chili owners seem to be die hard 26" fans...
    +1 on carbon endo and warden

  10. #10
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    Why would you want a carbon Endo and Warden? Those two overlap more than a set of new shingles on a leaky roof. Would make more sense to have a 27.5 120 - 130 mm frame and the Warden in 27.5, OR the Endo and Chili.

    Has to be some separation otherwise it will cut into each other's sales I would think.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  11. #11
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    I think the Warden will cut into Endo and Chilcotin sales. Ask Dave Turner about the Burner taking all the 5 Spot sales. As far as carbon I think the Warden in carbon at 6ish pounds would be great. Under $3K and it's a winner. I personally have no use for a bike with less than 140mm travel but if I did I'd think the bike that Kent suggests makes sense for the line up and all the punters that ride smoother more flowey trails.

  12. #12
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    That's kinda what I am getting at. Why bother getting a 27.5 Endo when you can get a Warden with 10mm more travel? Or vice versa?
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  13. #13
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    Re: Knolly 27.5 Carbon

    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    1) 650b
    2) Carbon
    3) 135mm rear travel
    4) 67.5 HA and designed around a 140mm fork
    5) Same ETT as the Endo
    6) Lighter than the Endo.
    7) Faster than the Endo up the hill
    8) Designed around a specific shock such as the CCDBA CS
    9) Ride like a Knolly
    10) Look like a Knolly
    Put me down for one.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk

  14. #14
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    We are on the same page it's the crazy Scotsman that asked for a 650/27.5 Endo.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by steammachine View Post
    Put me down for one.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk
    Sounds like you have been bitten by the Knolly bug.

    Hope you are enjoying the Chili and AvA fork.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    +1 but with a bit less travel. 125. Just to keep a nice gap between the Warden.
    The Fugitive. Ride it like you stole it.
    I was thinking Sheriff or Deputy, but your idea kicks butt.
    I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth...
    Isaiah 58:14

    www.stuckinthespokes.com

  17. #17
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    Kinda funny how the surfer thinks the fugitive while the Mormon thinks the Sheriff or Deputy.

  18. #18
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    Why would it be desirable to have a little less travel in the rear than the fork has?

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    Sounds like you have been bitten by the Knolly bug.

    Hope you are enjoying the Chili and AvA fork.
    Love the bike. Love the fork. Still playing around with both to get it dialed in, but I'm having a blast!

  20. #20
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    Can I play too? (disclaimer--I know nothing)

    My thinking goes like this:

    If I wanted to make a carbon bike, what would it need to be?

    1. It would need to be a trail bike (as opposed to DH or Freeride)
    2. It has to be 650b, since you already can't get any new carbon rims in 26" (all recent carbon molds have been 27.5 and 29"). And people that embrace a carbon frame will want carbon rims.
    3. It has to be faster than the Endorphin, and distinct from the Warden


    This leaves two possibilities in my mind.

    a) build a second gen Warden, but it comes in Carbon. This will compete with a Warden, but in a good way. Essentially, people that want a faster Warden for Enduro, will get this bike. Also, repeat customers may upgrade their aluminum version to Carbon
    b) build a new Endorphin and continue the Endorphin until the end of 2014, then phase it out much like the Delirium. It is replaced in late spring 2015 with the new Endo carbon.


    I have a feeling there is a bigger market in the Enduro class of bikes, than in the ultralight XC/Trail class. I think Enduro will continue to grow exponentially, and XC racing will stagnate. Cyclocross folks will continue on skinny tires. 29" will continue to dominate XC, and 27.5" will be the wheel of choice for Enduro. I think the Chilcotin will still see some sales going into 2015 and possibly 2016 as a light freeride 'do-all' type bike. And the Podium will remain dominant in DH racing without significant changes.

    Hence, what I would like to see is choice a.)


    The Knolly lineup would be:

    1. Endorphin 26" - lightest, fastest on mild Enduro, best for smaller riders
    2. Warden 27.5 - Aluminum for die hards, or folks that do not care for carbon, or want to pay the extra $$$. Fastest over more courses.
    3. Warden C 27.5 - carbon version, essentially only shares the geometry with the OG Warden. "The Fugitive" Available only in Matte Black. Will be a complete redesign, as Noel will only build a carbon bike if he can build it specifically. This will be the "must have bike" for 2015. There will be a limited run in Spring of 2015. Only MTBR members with >1000 posts in the Knolly forums are eligible for the limited run
    4. Chilcotin - New rockers available to increase travel to 165-170? Continues with no changes to front triangle.
    5. Delirium - RIP
    6. Delirium T - RIP
    7. V-Tach - RIP
    8. Free Radical - RIP
    9. Free Radical Mk II - 4" DJ/SS bike in 2016. Carbon technology learned from Warden C applied to new bike. Everyone loves it. I get the first frame made
    10. Podium - Continues with only minor changes with each run. Geo stays the same (its perfect!), stronger, lighter, and more colors! "Radiation Red" is the newest one, in which trace Radium content in the frame not only lights up the frame in daylight, but gives a cool afterglow to your scrotum, for midnight mayhem. Muttonchops comes out of retirement to buy this frame.
    Regional Race Manager, Knolly Bikes
    Washington, Oregon, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming

  21. #21
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    Climbing Ability

    I buy Knollys because of the way they descend, but what Enduro has is plenty of bikes that descend well. They don't all climb well on the smoother stuff which characterises most Enduro climbs.

    If the Warden is closer to the Chili than the Endo, then the Warden shouldn't be quicker than the Endo, so in the current Knolly line-up the Endo is KOM.

    That means that although Noel builds great descenders its time to build a bike that descends as Knollys do but climbs better than ever.

    The trick is to have a custom shock (like the demo and ohlins, or knollys and avalanche) not as an after-product / after-thought, but incorporated into the design of the bike itself, or in other words, built to go hand in hand with each other.

    After speaking to Craig at AVA I realise that the race for the ultimate enduro bike is straight mathematics now. The days of building frames for 'whatever shock the customer may buy' are over. The math shouldn't be done separately but together.

    IMO...the best thing Noel could do is team up with Craig, shares in Knolly for shares in Avalanche and patent the hell out of the formulas they derive together.

    Testing of such bikes/suspension designs 'up-hill' could involve computers recording not only timings but 'heart rate' of the rider / power / energy required to get there...these are readily available formulas to use at will...and can be used to compare against competitors bikes such as the SC 5010C, Devinci Troy Carbon SL, IBIS Mojo HDR, RM Thunderbolt and <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->the Kona Process 134 DL.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    Dude. You're supposed to email me directly when you have ideas like this. So good.
    Did you just confirm that the bike exists and you're looking for a name? Sounds like a confirming "no comment" to me.
    I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth...
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by moose1 View Post
    Kinda funny how the surfer thinks the fugitive while the Mormon thinks the Sheriff or Deputy.
    That is kinda interesting. Nah, I'm sure G-Air is a fine, law-abiding citizen........ right?
    I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth...
    Isaiah 58:14

    www.stuckinthespokes.com

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by moose1 View Post
    I believe carbon molds can be upwards $100,000 per size
    I know. That's why I wonder if it's even feasible for a small, self funded company like knolly. Any of you rich knolly owners out there want to invest in a bike company? I'm sure the thought of seeking outside financial backers/partners has crossed his mind.

    To be perfectly honest, if Noel stays with alloy and builds a bike similar to what I described above, I'd likely still give it the nod over something else. I'm not that hung up on carbon.
    I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth...
    Isaiah 58:14

    www.stuckinthespokes.com

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    To be perfectly honest, if Noel stays with alloy and builds a bike similar to what I described above, I'd likely still give it the nod over something else. I'm not that hung up on carbon.
    This brings up a question for me:
    What has a more noticeable improvement in feel, carbon frame or carbon wheels. I am fine staying with alloy. Carbon would be nice but it is not at the top of my list.

    And yes, I am good law abiding citizen.

  26. #26
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    +1 for the fugitive! just as Krob suggests. 130 would fit perfectly into the line up without any overlap with the warden. and of course, my only request that it be available in RED

  27. #27
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    yeah, agree 130mm would be fine and im not fussy for carbon either as long as its a little lighter than the current Endo that's all that would count.

    G-Air...carbon wheels over carbon frame since alu Knollys are super stiff as it is.

  28. #28
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    stupid comment removed

  29. #29
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    All this 130mm talk is fine I guess but I would simply like a few current offerings in carbon, like most manufacturers are doing. A carbon Warden and Podium for me please!

    As for carbon wheels vs frame, I have & had both and I say they are equal in the benefits. To me its not only the added stiffness, its the damping that gives that "feel" on the trail. Carbon frames are oh so quiet as well... Carbon wheels,cranks,bars and frame FTW!

  30. #30
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    I like rdh's suggestion for a special race edition Warden C but am a bit confused about what you are suggesting for the Fugitive. Is this bike what you would call the Fugitive or are you in favor of a 130 travel 27.5 carbon bike as well?
    I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth...
    Isaiah 58:14

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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    I like rdh's suggestion for a special race edition Warden C but am a bit confused about what you are suggesting for the Fugitive. Is this bike what you would call the Fugitive or are you in favor of a 130 travel 27.5 carbon bike as well?
    I think that a "Warden C" would have essentially the same geometry as the current Warden. Personally, I have no interest in a short travel 130mm bike in the 27.5 wheel size, so I would hope for a 150mm carbon version. But, it might make marketing sense to instead do a 'mini-Warden' in 27.5, but less travel, and do it in carbon. It would feel very stiff and quick and that might make the bigger wheels feel even better.

    Personally, I would be much more interested in a 4" DJ bike...as I said, a Free Radical Mk2 (but that is not what we are talking about here)
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhfreethought View Post
    I think that a "Warden C" would have essentially the same geometry as the current Warden. Personally, I have no interest in a short travel 130mm bike in the 27.5 wheel size, so I would hope for a 150mm carbon version. But, it might make marketing sense to instead do a 'mini-Warden' in 27.5, but less travel, and do it in carbon. It would feel very stiff and quick and that might make the bigger wheels feel even better.

    Personally, I would be much more interested in a 4" DJ bike...as I said, a Free Radical Mk2 (but that is not what we are talking about here)
    Yeah, the Free Radical 4" dirt jump bike would be cool.

    How about this: Build the Fugitive as we've described above with 125-135mm travel, low and slack etc for 2015 release. Then start working on a v.2 Warden (C?) with 160mm travel for release in 2016 to compete with the Norco Range carbon and speculated SC Nomad Carbon 27.5.

    Keep the 26" Chili as long as it's selling with minor updates (maybe 170mm, stealth dropper cable routing, maybe going a bit slacker to separate it a bit more from the Warden 66/65).
    I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth...
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  33. #33
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    Knolly 27.5 Carbon

    ^^^^ makes sense. I wonder if the Endo will stay 26" ?


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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    Yeah, the Free Radical 4" dirt jump bike would be cool.

    How about this: Build the Fugitive as we've described above with 125-135mm travel, low and slack etc for 2015 release. Then start working on a v.2 Warden (C?) with 160mm travel for release in 2016 to compete with the Norco Range carbon and speculated SC Nomad Carbon 27.5.

    Keep the 26" Chili as long as it's selling with minor updates (maybe 170mm, stealth dropper cable routing, maybe going a bit slacker to separate it a bit more from the Warden 66/65).
    +1 for the Free Radical ressurection.
    +1 for the 130mm travel, low, slack, 650b Fugitive.

    I'd like to see Knolly leave the Chili and Podium alone and work on altogether new bikes so i dont feel the need to sell a bike, but to add a new one to the stable. Therefore i propose the following bike ownership equation, where the optimum number of Knolly bikes to own 'Ko' is governed by the equation Ko = n + 1, where n = the current number of Knollys one owns.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    I was thinking Sheriff or Deputy, but your idea kicks butt.
    I shot the Sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy
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  36. #36
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    No cop references please, grew up on the wrong side & Warden was bad enough.

  37. #37
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    140 travel, warden slack geo, 5lbs, carbon.... sold...

  38. #38
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    When is this carbon knolly coming? Take my money now!

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