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  1. #1
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    Hans Dampf or Trail King?

    I'm looking for a new pair of shoes for the Chili. I have been a fan of the Specialized tires, specifically the Butcher SX. The Butchers are not the best rolling tire, wear very quickly, but have not let me down. They are good and durable, and don't have transition knobs. I tend to square off corners and compress hard to get the tires to dig. I recently replaced the front tire with a Purgatory Control 2.3 and a Ground Control 2.3 GRID and was blown away by the weight savings and the decreased rolling. I felt like I was on a new bike. However, when we hit Holbert, the front tire (675 grams) did not inspire confidence. I felt like I had to hold up a bit and smash stuff. Not to mention, the 2,3 Specy tires are tiny and my Chili just looks plain strange with XC like tires

    Both the HD and TK seems to get rave reviews. I would go with either the 2.4 UST TK or the HD TSC front, PSC back, EVO, snakeskin, blah blah blah. My main concern with the HD is the weight, something like 785 grams??? I have also seen them come in at 890 grams?? So which is it?

    I have never been a fan of the TK line of tires, but after seeing Rock Dudes bike at Knollfest, the shear massive size of the TK would be nice, and it looks aggressive. Rock Dudes brand new TKs looked brand new at the end of the weekend while RDHs HDs looked like they had a good months worth of riding on them.

    You guys have seen the terrain we ride, what do you think?
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  2. #2
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    I have put another 160 miles on the TK's since the Knollfest and the tires are still in great shape.

    I took a trip to Las Vegas and rode a trail called Kibble and Bits, very sharp rocks with lots of loose sand on top. The tires did great.
    I think there one of best all around tires.

  3. #3
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    I've been running a Hans Dampf front tire for most of the season in Trailstar compound and it has been excellent. The compound is very soft, but as a front tire it should hold up reasonably well. The snakeskin tubeless-ready version is just about 780g if I remember right.

    The Conti TK 2.4 UST is massive and heavy! I have a 2.4 Protection and that's over 1100g. A Maxxis Ardent 2.4 2-ply tire is lighter than that! The Conti TK UST 2.2 is an excellent rear tire. You'll get a bit more drift but plenty of bite and it rolls reasonably well too. I think it weighs just over 800g. The sidewall is thin for UST, comparable to a Protection, EXO, or Snakeskin tire.

    Why no love for Maxxis tires anymore? The HR II EXO is a brilliant rear tire but pretty slow rolling and it weighs around 900g. The Schwalbe HD TSC felt like it rolled a bit better than the HR II but the sidewall is less beefy.

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    I've run the 2.4 non-UST Rubber Queen/TK on the front and it was OK. It mounted tubeless with no issues and had a very thick sidewall, IMO UST on the 2.4 variety mounted to the front would be overkill even on SOMO. The huge volume literally feels like you've added an inch of travel which is nice. It's great smashing through rocks, and cornering in loam and softer trails you'd find at higher elevations. I did not like it in the desert on loose over hardpack. It just never felt great cornering even at low pressure. It's really tall and large volume but isn't very wide and the outer knobs are set more inward so there isn't a nice rail to lock on to.

    I've also run the 2.2 UST Trail King on the front and rear. It's also a very large tire even at 2.2. If I was going to put another RQ/TK on the front it would be the 2.2 UST as it's plenty large. On the rear is where it shines though - it's great and is one of my go to tires when I need UST and don't want to worry about slashing a sidewall. These things like the low pressure for optimal traction. One thing that I don't like about it on the rear is that it's harder to break loose when you want to make a little sliding adjustment in corners. 2.2 UST weight is 845g.

    I currently have a 2.35 Hans Dampf TS on the front and PC on the rear. These are really big tires but don't feel heavy on the bike. They have a roundish profile but still have a nice sharp, wide edge for cornering. So far they're hooking up great on the desert trails and the more I begin to trust them the better they're getting. I took until the end of my first ride to really start feeling them. I was coming off the Butcher Control on the front and used to the gap and outer rail, so leaning hard into corners. I was hesitant to do the same right away with the HD - first half of the ride I didn't like them. The HD is definitely better in the rocks and just running stuff over as I don't have to pay so much attention to dodging sharp looking rocks, instead just mow them down. These things like low pressure too and have the casing to support it. I'm surprised the HD is only 765g. It's got a beefy casing for a non-UST tire and will stand up off the wheel on it own. It actually looks really big on the rear, almost overkill big. Knowing your preference for square tires I'd recommend trying the HD TSC front for sure. It would be a toss up between the 2.2 UST TK and the HD PSC for the rear. The HD is a little lighter but the TK probably rolls better.

  5. #5
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    I get along with many tires, not one of those "I can only ride X tire" types. That said, I just couldn't get on with the 2.4 UST TK up front. Tried it a few times on a couple different bikes, we just don't see eye to eye. Out back, lovely tire, does everything I need it to and never held back because of it. They are heavy to pedal around tho, as mentioned, right around 1100g.

    The Hans Dampf is just a fantastic tire in both 26 and 29" form. The weights you mention are the respective weights for the two different diameters. The Dampf is still a bit slow rolling but noticeably snappier feeling than the TK. Around here I run a Dampf up front and a 2.4 Nobby Nic out back for trail duty, tubeless of course. I'm a UT boy so are trails are plenty harsh and these tires work well for pinnin over our sharp rocks.

    nybike1971 - I had the HRII's on a set of Enve's that I was reviewing last summer, brilliant tire. Maxxis really nailed the upgrades. That said, I've seen a few too many failures on the EXO setup tubeless (not sure if tubeless is a factor for you or the OP) to work for me. But yeah, the tread pattern rocks.

  6. #6
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    Both great tires. I ran the HD Trailstars for 3-4 months before the rear wore out completely. would definitely try the pacestar in the rear if I were to go with them again. The Trail star in the front was still in pretty good shape when I replaced it after 6-8 months.

    I've got several pretty long test rides/demos on the Trail Kings and like those as well. Maybe a bit less grippy in turns than the HD but I love the way they mold themselves around rocks and stick in chaussy stuff.

    Both are farely rounded profile and are much more gradual in hooking up as you lean in. Less aggressive riders really like them for this. Much more forgiving. They are not like the tires you describe with no transition that you have to really lean over agressively and set the edge.

    I would think they would both work really well in the SoMo granite for climbing and tech. Big volume, low pressure, grippy. I think the Trail Kings in the Black Chili will outlast the HD's by a fair margin though. I think they roll a little faster too.
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    Not that it is a fair test, but Rockdude and I rolled side by side on the road on a downhill section. We weight about the same, I am taller, was wearing armor and a long sleeve jersey so I probably had more air resistance. Rockdude was on Enve + TK (not sure which hubs), I was on TS HD on flows laced to King hubs. I was very noticably faster rolling down the hill (on pavement).

    Having said that, I would look for another tire for the rear for AZ chunk. The HD tires I have will last a long time here in the PNW. The HD up front would be good, but I would recommend the TK, or another tire in back. I also think, in the chunk, its easier to flat the rear on those sharp rocks. So having a heavier/beefier tire with a harder compound is probably the way to go. I like the HR as a rear, have never tried it up front. Maybe something else from Schwalbe Fat Albert or Big Betty?

    Of note, there is also the 2013 Der Kaiser at 1150g. This may be the tire I go to in the rear, after the HD dies. I may actually race DH on it this year.

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Err View Post
    nybike1971 - I had the HRII's on a set of Enve's that I was reviewing last summer, brilliant tire. Maxxis really nailed the upgrades. That said, I've seen a few too many failures on the EXO setup tubeless (not sure if tubeless is a factor for you or the OP) to work for me. But yeah, the tread pattern rocks.
    Tell me about it! I was riding up the road on the way to the trailhead with tiSS'er and dirtbag when a brand new HR II EXO exploded off my rim. It was setup tubeless at 30psi on a Flow rim with yellow tape.

    I was hoping it was just a production defect with a tire bead that was slightly too loose but your experience doesn't give me any comfort.

    After we threw a tube in there, the tire held up great for a run down Holbert at reasonable pressure (no flats).

  9. #9
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    Some of the weights i quoted above are slightly off. i just weighed a bunch of tires for reference:

    Conti TK 2.2 UST 740g
    Conti TK 2.4 UST 1210g
    Conti TK 2.4 Prot. 1010g
    Conti Baron 2.3 APEX 760g
    Maxxis HR II EXO 3C/60a 900g/910g
    Maxxis DHF 2.5 EXO 860g
    Maxxis DHF 2.5 2-ply 1350g
    Maxxis Ardent 2.4 2-ply 1170g

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Err View Post
    I get along with many tires, not one of those "I can only ride X tire" types. That said, I just couldn't get on with the 2.4 UST TK up front. Tried it a few times on a couple different bikes, we just don't see eye to eye. Out back, lovely tire, does everything I need it to and never held back because of it. They are heavy to pedal around tho, as mentioned, right around 1100g.
    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    I did not like it in the desert on loose over hardpack. It just never felt great cornering even at low pressure. It's really tall and large volume but isn't very wide and the outer knobs are set more inward so there isn't a nice rail to lock on to.
    These were my findings, I couldn't have said it better. I like the 2.4 TK out back, but never did get along up front.

    Right now I'm running the Butcher SX Front right now, and if it isn't that, it is a Big Betty. FA rear, but that goes back & forth between that tire, NoNi, TK...depending on conditions.

  11. #11
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    Thanks for all of the info guys. It seems like the best place to start is the HD TSC/PSC combo. My brother is running the HD TSC/TSC on his Chili and loves them here in the valley. He is running 24PSI and I was pretty surprised at how beefy the sidewall felt. Hard for me to believe that they weigh less than 800grams. I normally kill tires that light on SOMO (I've never been accused of being a smooth rider).

    I know for sure I won't run a TSC in the back, but a PSC might be a good compromise. I burn through a Butcher SX on the front in 3-4 months. I do run tubeless, and I believe the EVOs are TL.
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    2.35 HD TS front and 2.4 TK Black Chili rear works well. My front HD is the 650b version.

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    I've been running a Big Betty 2.4 TSC in the front and a HD 2.35 PSC in the back for quite a while. Love that combo and ride all over the southwest with it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Thanks for all of the info guys. It seems like the best place to start is the HD TSC/PSC combo. My brother is running the HD TSC/TSC on his Chili and loves them here in the valley. He is running 24PSI and I was pretty surprised at how beefy the sidewall felt. Hard for me to believe that they weigh less than 800grams. I normally kill tires that light on SOMO (I've never been accused of being a smooth rider).

    I know for sure I won't run a TSC in the back, but a PSC might be a good compromise. I burn through a Butcher SX on the front in 3-4 months. I do run tubeless, and I believe the EVOs are TL.
    I can confirm the HD TSC/PSC combo is excellent on the Chilcotin. I saved a bunch of money buying directly from Deutschland. Check out bike-discount.de

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Thanks for all of the info guys. It seems like the best place to start is the HD TSC/PSC combo. My brother is running the HD TSC/TSC on his Chili and loves them here in the valley. He is running 24PSI and I was pretty surprised at how beefy the sidewall felt. Hard for me to believe that they weigh less than 800grams. I normally kill tires that light on SOMO (I've never been accused of being a smooth rider).

    I know for sure I won't run a TSC in the back, but a PSC might be a good compromise. I burn through a Butcher SX on the front in 3-4 months. I do run tubeless, and I believe the EVOs are TL.
    These guys have great prices on tires including the Hans Dampf and usually very quick shipping. Typically it's at your door the next day with ground shipping, in SoCal. Maybe an extra day to AZ.

    Bike Bling

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    guys, this is a great thread. As a Noob i'm second guessing every five minutes what tires I should start out with. TSC, have you put any thought into the Schwable HD Gravity. With all that rock you are exposed too the slight weight penality on the tire might be worth it. I think they come in the three Schwable compounds and they are folding tubeless. Anway food for thought. Also does anyone know if there is any differences between the 2012 and 2013 Hd's. Bike-discounte has the 2012's on sale for a bit cheaper than the 2013's.
    sorry I meant TiSS'er not TSC......

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    These guys have great prices on tires including the Hans Dampf and usually very quick shipping. Typically it's at your door the next day with ground shipping, in SoCal. Maybe an extra day to AZ.

    Bike Bling
    Thanks for the link. Are you worried at all puncturing the tire? just seems so light.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Thanks for the link. Are you worried at all puncturing the tire? just seems so light.
    I'm not at all worried about a puncture or slash with the HD but I'm used to lighter tires and picking lines, etc. Even with that said the sidewalls seem good (waaaaay tougher than controls) and the knobs are tighter so it's a little more difficult for sharp objects to get down to the casing. I don't think it'll be an issue unless you hit something sharp just the right way. Also, on Flows they mounted tight (I had to pull the valve core to set the bead) so burbing hopefully isn't going to be an issue either. Each ride I'm going lower on the pressure and getting better results

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    I'm not at all worried about a puncture or slash with the HD but I'm used to lighter tires and picking lines, etc. Even with that said the sidewalls seem good (waaaaay tougher than controls) and the knobs are tighter so it's a little more difficult for sharp objects to get down to the casing. I don't think it'll be an issue unless you hit something sharp just the right way. Also, on Flows they mounted tight (I had to pull the valve core to set the bead) so burbing hopefully isn't going to be an issue either. Each ride I'm going lower on the pressure and getting better results
    What pressures are you running now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    What pressures are you running now?
    When I finished my last ride the front was down to 16psi I let a little out along the way, rear was about 20psi. Next ride I'll set them at 18 front and 20 rear and likely settle there unless I'm hitting rim at speed. For SOMO I'd add a couple PSI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MTBMarkWa View Post
    I've been running a Big Betty 2.4 TSC in the front and a HD 2.35 PSC in the back for quite a while. Love that combo and ride all over the southwest with it.
    Hey MTBMarkWa,

    I was thinking about running the same combo on the Delirium. Are you running this tubeless? And if not can I run the Big Betty tubeless? Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Thanks for the link. Are you worried at all puncturing the tire? just seems so light.
    I have ridden mine as a front tire since June all over the Northeast, two weeks in Oregon, one week in Moab (including two runs down the Whole Enchilada and one run down Mag 7 to Blue Dot to Portal), and replaced the day before I met you on South Mountain because I every cornering knob was chewed out and not providing any more support. I have been extremely impressed at how solid the Snakeskin sidewall is for the weight. I was quite skeptical but it has worked out very well. I have only a 4 days of riding in Phoenix and Sedona on the HD as a rear tire and it survived without any trouble but that's hardly a long term test.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyknutsville View Post
    Hey MTBMarkWa,

    I was thinking about running the same combo on the Delirium. Are you running this tubeless? And if not can I run the Big Betty tubeless? Thanks
    Yep.. Running them tubless on Stans Arch-EX rims. No issues at all. Bike is not in front of me, but I'm pretty sure they say 'Tubeless Ready' on the tire. I also ran this combo in my Delirium-T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MTBMarkWa View Post
    Yep.. Running them tubless on Stans Arch-EX rims. No issues at all. Bike is not in front of me, but I'm pretty sure they say 'Tubeless Ready' on the tire. I also ran this combo in my Delirium-T.
    Thanks bro.

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    I have been a fan of the Specialized tires, specifically the Butcher SX
    the 2,3 Specy tires are tiny
    Have you thought of just bumping up in size to the Butcher SX 2.5? I run TK2.4 UST and I'm thinking these will be my next tires once/if they ever wear out.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleevem1 View Post
    guys, this is a great thread. As a Noob i'm second guessing every five minutes what tires I should start out with. TSC, have you put any thought into the Schwable HD Gravity. With all that rock you are exposed too the slight weight penality on the tire might be worth it. I think they come in the three Schwable compounds and they are folding tubeless. Anway food for thought. Also does anyone know if there is any differences between the 2012 and 2013 Hd's. Bike-discounte has the 2012's on sale for a bit cheaper than the 2013's.
    sorry I meant TiSS'er not TSC......
    Hey Sleevem1! I actually asked bike-discount.de about the tires and they informed me they there is no difference between the 2012 and 2013 models, except for some writing on the side wall. Apparently, when those are gone, they're gone, and you'll pay the slight upcharge for the 2013 HDs. Hope this helps.

  27. #27
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    You guys which have had issues with the Maxxis Exos as tubeless. Did you run them straight up on the rim or setup DIY with a 20" tube? I had no issue on a 721s with a 20" tube but when I tried them straight on the rim with some tape for the spoke holes I burped them like crazy within 5 minutes of leaving the car. Installed a tube and completed the ride. I wouldnt even setup them up on a tubeless rim.
    I am planning on trying the HDs on both CB Opiums and non UST rims. Can they be installed on a non UST rim without a 20" tube? I have only just received my Opiums for my new trail bike and have never run UST rims before so its always been DIY tubeless. Last time I ran Schwalbes they were not tubeless ready so I always used a 20" tube. Obviously I woudl prefer to loose the littel extra weight and not run any tubes but it does give alot of added bead support.
    I just want to ride.

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    I've run 2.4 trail king black chillis and 2.35 Hans dampf's the tubeless ready pacestar ones and I prefer the Hans dampf's. They are set up tubeless on flow rims. interestingly I have never flatted the Hans dampf's but have the trail kings. Both times were punctured sidewalls.

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    FWIW, I really like the Hans in pretty much all conditions here in the PNW. I've only ran it in the rear however. (I like Muddy Mary up front). I also ran the trail star compound, tubeless on Flows, and about 27 psi. I'm about 215 RTR, but I might start trying to lower my PSI a bit.

    The one on my hardtail has been on awhile and still has life left in it, but that doesn't see as much riding as the Chili. The first one on the Chili lasted ok the first few months I had it, say April until about July. Then I really started working on my corners, and the thing went to hell in a handbasket fast. Knobs tearing, some ripping clean off. I threw another one on since I got a pair of new ones for a screaming deal, so we'll see how this one wears.

    If this one wears fast like the last one, I might give the Pace Star compound a go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    When I finished my last ride the front was down to 16psi I let a little out along the way, rear was about 20psi. Next ride I'll set them at 18 front and 20 rear and likely settle there unless I'm hitting rim at speed. For SOMO I'd add a couple PSI.
    WOW. That is ridiculously low. Marc was running 24psi and they felt stout, so I can see it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpcaser View Post
    Have you thought of just bumping up in size to the Butcher SX 2.5? I run TK2.4 UST and I'm thinking these will be my next tires once/if they ever wear out.
    The 2.3 SX is bigger and more burly than the 2.3 Controls. The 2.3 SX is actually a pretty good size.
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  32. #32
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    Yea i noticed with the Schwalbe tires you can run super low PSI .. I had a HD out back setup tubeless and it felt good . Grippy but this is for NE conditions .

    I had some Big Bettys out back on my DH bike , worked in every condition possibly and took some super chunky rocks and held up just fine .

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    Had another long ride on the HD's today. Desert loose over hardpack, steep climbs and descents. The longest descent was very loose due to some recent trail maintenance and is littered with very tight switchbacks that have steep run-ins and exposure so your entry position and tracking is critical. The front tire felt like if I turned into the switchback it wanted to continue straight ahead. It had a squirmy feeling when the bike is upright. This sensation had me out of sorts as I didn't recall it when I rode the same trail a couple weeks ago (same conditions) with the Butcher on the front. I'm not sure what it is - maybe the lack of a channel and outer rail of knobs, round profile, just me, not sure? On the faster descents I wasn't feeling them either. I thought I had adjusted and started to like but today just wasn't working. I'm not sure what to think - they felt great climbing! Good traction and acceleration and don't feel like I'm pedaling a 'heavy' tire. Maybe the transition knobs give the vague feeling? Nevegal comes to mind (yuck). I think I just prefer a tire without them. I'll continue to ride the HD's to see if I can adjust but wanted to throw out this feedback and see if anybody else has experienced this coming from a tire without transition knobs.

    Also, tiSSer I know you're used to no transition knobs so maybe proceed with caution. If I find I can't deal with them and they still have life left I'll mail them to you to try out. I need to slim down my tire collection

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    LN, perhaps your pressures are too low? Running my front at 22 and have no complaints about steering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    Had another long ride on the HD's today. Desert loose over hardpack, steep climbs and descents. The longest descent was very loose due to some recent trail maintenance and is littered with very tight switchbacks that have steep run-ins and exposure so your entry position and tracking is critical. The front tire felt like if I turned into the switchback it wanted to continue straight ahead. It had a squirmy feeling when the bike is upright. This sensation had me out of sorts as I didn't recall it when I rode the same trail a couple weeks ago (same conditions) with the Butcher on the front. I'm not sure what it is - maybe the lack of a channel and outer rail of knobs, round profile, just me, not sure? On the faster descents I wasn't feeling them either. I thought I had adjusted and started to like but today just wasn't working. I'm not sure what to think - they felt great climbing! Good traction and acceleration and don't feel like I'm pedaling a 'heavy' tire. Maybe the transition knobs give the vague feeling? Nevegal comes to mind (yuck). I think I just prefer a tire without them. I'll continue to ride the HD's to see if I can adjust but wanted to throw out this feedback and see if anybody else has experienced this coming from a tire without transition knobs.

    Also, tiSSer I know you're used to no transition knobs so maybe proceed with caution. If I find I can't deal with them and they still have life left I'll mail them to you to try out. I need to slim down my tire collection
    Lance,

    Thanks for the detailed review. I know the feeling you are talking about, and I have yet to find a tire with transition knobs that give me that "oh so good feeling". Tires without transitions just seem to work well for me.

    We hit Holbert today, and the Butcher was just hooking up. I never think about them, and they are real easy to get over on the side knobs. I was really close to ordering a set of HDs, but for some reason decided to put a Butcher SX I had sitting around on the rear of the bike to replace a Ground Control GRID. I like the GC, it rolls fast, but the side knobs are suspect. I am unable to get them to hook up on off camber rock. Unfortunately the Butcher is very soft and roll like a$$. I'll see how these work out, though I know they won't last long on the rear.

    I am trying out the DHF/DHR 2.35 combon on the Endo. I will see how that works out as maybe I will try the 2.5 DHF 3C EXO on the Chili. Maybe HighRoller 2 EXO on the rear.

    Does anyone know why the Ardent DH is no longer listed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    I am trying out the DHF/DHR 2.35 combon on the Endo. I will see how that works out as maybe I will try the 2.5 DHF 3C EXO on the Chili. Maybe HighRoller 2 EXO on the rear.

    Does anyone know why the Ardent DH is no longer listed?
    The 2.35 DHR is probably my favorite rear tire for lighter applications but I slash the sidewalls too darn easily Still, it's such a great tire climbing, braking, cornering, everything. Wishing Maxxis would offer it in an EXO. I rode the DHF 2.5 EXO on the front for my trip with you guys and loved it. Felt right at home immediately! Like velcro. I'd say it's a step up from the Butcher in traction but a little portly for XC/trail rides. After reading the comments about EXO issues setup tubeless I feel like I dodged a bullet on that trip. Also, prior to running the HD's I had an Ardent 2.25 EXO on the rear with the Butcher up front. That was my light set up. I didn't have any issues keeping the tire on the rim at 22psi. The traction isn't the best so you have to be more on point on sketchy climbs and descents but it rolls fast and the EXO offers good protection.

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    One thing to remember about the Hans Dampf is they are big, actually f*ucking Huge.
    Aired up tubeless on 819's, they measure out at 2.55"

    I have been using them as my "trail" tires, both TrailStar for 2 seasons. Love em.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post

    Also, tiSSer I know you're used to no transition knobs so maybe proceed with caution. If I find I can't deal with them and they still have life left I'll mail them to you to try out. I need to slim down my tire collection
    Thanks Lance, let me know if you decide to throw them in a pile somewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Thanks Lance, let me know if you decide to throw them in a pile somewhere.
    I'd be happy to "test" one out as a rear tire if you get sick of it.

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    I have been running the HD as a front for a while now. For my riding and locale I prefer it over the DHF. To me it is more predictable and easier to manipulate. The tire has a pronounced "I'm washing out" feeling but a quick flick of the bars gets you back in traction. Running a Fat Albert UST in the back, it has great traction, and rolls well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Thanks Lance, let me know if you decide to throw them in a pile somewhere.
    Quick update. I picked up a new Butcher for this morning's ride and am noticeably faster in the corners and more confidently over the front with it. I like it and it's staying. The HD will not be going back on the front... That was an expensive experiment - I've had a couple of those lately.

    One new observation however, my previous Butcher was a 2012 I believe and the new one is what I think is a 2013. I swear it's slightly smaller and Specialized added some ribbing to the sides. I tossed the worn out 2012 so couldn't compare directly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    Quick update. I picked up a new Butcher for this morning's ride and am noticeably faster in the corners and more confidently over the front with it. I like it and it's staying. The HD will not be going back on the front... That was an expensive experiment - I've had a couple of those lately.

    One new observation however, my previous Butcher was a 2012 I believe and the new one is what I think is a 2013. I swear it's slightly smaller and Specialized added some ribbing to the sides. I tossed the worn out 2012 so couldn't compare directly.
    Butcher Control? I have one of those at home waiting intall and it seems a bit smaller than the Butcher SX. I have an SX front and rear right now. I'm curious to see how it handles on the rear.

    I have done the same thing with tires. Spend lots of money to just come back to what I like. I find tires without transition knobs just offer more confidence when things get fast. I had a Hans Dampf in my hands today, but put it back....sounds like I may have saved myself a bunch of money too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Butcher Control? I have one of those at home waiting intall and it seems a bit smaller than the Butcher SX. I have an SX front and rear right now. I'm curious to see how it handles on the rear.

    I have done the same thing with tires. Spend lots of money to just come back to what I like. I find tires without transition knobs just offer more confidence when things get fast. I had a Hans Dampf in my hands today, but put it back....sounds like I may have saved myself a bunch of money too.
    It's a Control. I'm pretty sure Speshy made the 2013 slightly smaller as I want to say the published weight went from 750 to 730g. Look at your control to see if there are ribs on the upper sidewall. I don't think my previous Butcher had them.

    I agree the Butcher/DHF/etc pattern just works for tracking at speed.

    It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts on the Butcher on the rear. I've run a DHF on the rear and it didn't work well on my local trails. It was fine until braking going fast over loose DG. Many love it though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    It's a Control. I'm pretty sure Speshy made the 2013 slightly smaller as I want to say the published weight went from 750 to 730g. Look at your control to see if there are ribs on the upper sidewall. I don't think my previous Butcher had them.

    I agree the Butcher/DHF/etc pattern just works for tracking at speed.

    It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts on the Butcher on the rear. I've run a DHF on the rear and it didn't work well on my local trails. It was fine until braking going fast over loose DG. Many love it though.
    My Butcher Control is almost a year old and has the little ribs on the side. The Control version is definitely smaller than the SX, but still a good sized 2.3. I wonder if the new ones are a bit smaller.

    I'm looking forward to throwing an SX on the Chili once i get a lighter trail bike built up.

    For what its worth I am enjoying the HD on the rear for my local riding here in SoCal. It is a bit hard to compare to my previous tire (purgatory) because of the recent rains and the subsequent hero dirt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    My Butcher Control is almost a year old and has the little ribs on the side. The Control version is definitely smaller than the SX, but still a good sized 2.3. I wonder if the new ones are a bit smaller.

    I'm looking forward to throwing an SX on the Chili once i get a lighter trail bike built up.

    For what its worth I am enjoying the HD on the rear for my local riding here in SoCal. It is a bit hard to compare to my previous tire (purgatory) because of the recent rains and the subsequent hero dirt.
    Thanks for the clarification. I couldn't remember if the ribs were there or not. It looks smaller but could be an illusion since I was used to seeing the wide HD up there.

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    Anything but Nevegals!

    No one can ride those ghastly things!
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    No one can ride those ghastly things!
    Finally something I can agree with Mrwhlr on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdhfreethought View Post
    Not that it is a fair test, but Rockdude and I rolled side by side on the road on a downhill section. We weight about the same, I am taller, was wearing armor and a long sleeve jersey so I probably had more air resistance. Rockdude was on Enve + TK (not sure which hubs), I was on TS HD on flows laced to King hubs. I was very noticably faster rolling down the hill (on pavement).
    Hmm. That is surprising. Just my butt feel, but on my trails the HD in TS compound felt noticebly slower than the TKs. Proof positive that CK hubs are faster than ENVE hubs I guess (or you're just a better coaster than Rockdude).

    Admitedly, I haven't ridden the TK's as much and only very little on my home trails and not at all on my 5 Spot, so your test may be more scientific than mine.
    Last edited by KRob; 01-09-2013 at 10:34 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Butcher Control? I have one of those at home waiting intall and it seems a bit smaller than the Butcher SX. I have an SX front and rear right now. I'm curious to see how it handles on the rear.

    I have done the same thing with tires. Spend lots of money to just come back to what I like. I find tires without transition knobs just offer more confidence when things get fast. I had a Hans Dampf in my hands today, but put it back....sounds like I may have saved myself a bunch of money too.
    You chose wisely. I've seen how hard you ride. You would've blown those things apart. I got about 2 months of riding on my HD's before putting them away. I was riding them tubeless at the time and the 1st month was great. They went steadily down hill after that. I was flatting at least once a ride. I tried them with tubes for a couple of weeks and it got worse. Besides that the tread wore so fast it was ridiculous. If I stuck with them I'd been lucky to get 3 months out of them.

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    So general consensus is HD front and this is what I am looking trying next month. How do the FA and NN compare to each other for the rear? I have run a WW and it was good but I tore it up real quick. The knobbies were just too small and the siping seemed to weaken the tire as far as durability goes. Braking on hardpack didnt agree with the WW.
    I just want to ride.

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