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Hans Dampf or Trail King?

22K views 132 replies 42 participants last post by  sundace 
#1 ·
I'm looking for a new pair of shoes for the Chili. I have been a fan of the Specialized tires, specifically the Butcher SX. The Butchers are not the best rolling tire, wear very quickly, but have not let me down. They are good and durable, and don't have transition knobs. I tend to square off corners and compress hard to get the tires to dig. I recently replaced the front tire with a Purgatory Control 2.3 and a Ground Control 2.3 GRID and was blown away by the weight savings and the decreased rolling. I felt like I was on a new bike. However, when we hit Holbert, the front tire (675 grams) did not inspire confidence. I felt like I had to hold up a bit and smash stuff. Not to mention, the 2,3 Specy tires are tiny and my Chili just looks plain strange with XC like tires :)

Both the HD and TK seems to get rave reviews. I would go with either the 2.4 UST TK or the HD TSC front, PSC back, EVO, snakeskin, blah blah blah. My main concern with the HD is the weight, something like 785 grams??? I have also seen them come in at 890 grams?? So which is it?

I have never been a fan of the TK line of tires, but after seeing Rock Dudes bike at Knollfest, the shear massive size of the TK would be nice, and it looks aggressive. Rock Dudes brand new TKs looked brand new at the end of the weekend while RDHs HDs looked like they had a good months worth of riding on them.

You guys have seen the terrain we ride, what do you think?
 
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#2 ·
I have put another 160 miles on the TK's since the Knollfest and the tires are still in great shape.

I took a trip to Las Vegas and rode a trail called Kibble and Bits, very sharp rocks with lots of loose sand on top. The tires did great.
I think there one of best all around tires.
 
#3 ·
I've been running a Hans Dampf front tire for most of the season in Trailstar compound and it has been excellent. The compound is very soft, but as a front tire it should hold up reasonably well. The snakeskin tubeless-ready version is just about 780g if I remember right.

The Conti TK 2.4 UST is massive and heavy! I have a 2.4 Protection and that's over 1100g. A Maxxis Ardent 2.4 2-ply tire is lighter than that! The Conti TK UST 2.2 is an excellent rear tire. You'll get a bit more drift but plenty of bite and it rolls reasonably well too. I think it weighs just over 800g. The sidewall is thin for UST, comparable to a Protection, EXO, or Snakeskin tire.

Why no love for Maxxis tires anymore? The HR II EXO is a brilliant rear tire but pretty slow rolling and it weighs around 900g. The Schwalbe HD TSC felt like it rolled a bit better than the HR II but the sidewall is less beefy.
 
#133 · (Edited)
I've been running a Hans Dampf front tire for most of the season in Trailstar compound and it has been excellent. The compound is very soft, but as a front tire it should hold up reasonably well. The snakeskin tubeless-ready version is just about 780g if I remember right.

The Conti TK 2.4 UST is massive and heavy! I have a 2.4 Protection and that's over 1100g. A Maxxis Ardent 2.4 2-ply tire is lighter than that! The Conti TK UST 2.2 is an excellent rear tire. You'll get a bit more drift but plenty of bite and it rolls reasonably well too. I think it weighs just over 800g.
is the hans dampf better rolling than the 2.2 trail king UST?

can you make a general comparison between the 2?

is the 2.2 tk smaller than the 2.35 hans?
 
#4 ·
I've run the 2.4 non-UST Rubber Queen/TK on the front and it was OK. It mounted tubeless with no issues and had a very thick sidewall, IMO UST on the 2.4 variety mounted to the front would be overkill even on SOMO. The huge volume literally feels like you've added an inch of travel which is nice. It's great smashing through rocks, and cornering in loam and softer trails you'd find at higher elevations. I did not like it in the desert on loose over hardpack. It just never felt great cornering even at low pressure. It's really tall and large volume but isn't very wide and the outer knobs are set more inward so there isn't a nice rail to lock on to.

I've also run the 2.2 UST Trail King on the front and rear. It's also a very large tire even at 2.2. If I was going to put another RQ/TK on the front it would be the 2.2 UST as it's plenty large. On the rear is where it shines though - it's great and is one of my go to tires when I need UST and don't want to worry about slashing a sidewall. These things like the low pressure for optimal traction. One thing that I don't like about it on the rear is that it's harder to break loose when you want to make a little sliding adjustment in corners. 2.2 UST weight is 845g.

I currently have a 2.35 Hans Dampf TS on the front and PC on the rear. These are really big tires but don't feel heavy on the bike. They have a roundish profile but still have a nice sharp, wide edge for cornering. So far they're hooking up great on the desert trails and the more I begin to trust them the better they're getting. I took until the end of my first ride to really start feeling them. I was coming off the Butcher Control on the front and used to the gap and outer rail, so leaning hard into corners. I was hesitant to do the same right away with the HD - first half of the ride I didn't like them. The HD is definitely better in the rocks and just running stuff over as I don't have to pay so much attention to dodging sharp looking rocks, instead just mow them down. These things like low pressure too and have the casing to support it. I'm surprised the HD is only 765g. It's got a beefy casing for a non-UST tire and will stand up off the wheel on it own. It actually looks really big on the rear, almost overkill big. Knowing your preference for square tires I'd recommend trying the HD TSC front for sure. It would be a toss up between the 2.2 UST TK and the HD PSC for the rear. The HD is a little lighter but the TK probably rolls better.
 
#5 ·
I get along with many tires, not one of those "I can only ride X tire" types. That said, I just couldn't get on with the 2.4 UST TK up front. Tried it a few times on a couple different bikes, we just don't see eye to eye. Out back, lovely tire, does everything I need it to and never held back because of it. They are heavy to pedal around tho, as mentioned, right around 1100g.

The Hans Dampf is just a fantastic tire in both 26 and 29" form. The weights you mention are the respective weights for the two different diameters. The Dampf is still a bit slow rolling but noticeably snappier feeling than the TK. Around here I run a Dampf up front and a 2.4 Nobby Nic out back for trail duty, tubeless of course. I'm a UT boy so are trails are plenty harsh and these tires work well for pinnin over our sharp rocks.

nybike1971 - I had the HRII's on a set of Enve's that I was reviewing last summer, brilliant tire. Maxxis really nailed the upgrades. That said, I've seen a few too many failures on the EXO setup tubeless (not sure if tubeless is a factor for you or the OP) to work for me. But yeah, the tread pattern rocks.
 
#8 ·
nybike1971 - I had the HRII's on a set of Enve's that I was reviewing last summer, brilliant tire. Maxxis really nailed the upgrades. That said, I've seen a few too many failures on the EXO setup tubeless (not sure if tubeless is a factor for you or the OP) to work for me. But yeah, the tread pattern rocks.
Tell me about it! I was riding up the road on the way to the trailhead with tiSS'er and dirtbag when a brand new HR II EXO exploded off my rim. It was setup tubeless at 30psi on a Flow rim with yellow tape.

I was hoping it was just a production defect with a tire bead that was slightly too loose but your experience doesn't give me any comfort.

After we threw a tube in there, the tire held up great for a run down Holbert at reasonable pressure (no flats).
 
#6 ·
Both great tires. I ran the HD Trailstars for 3-4 months before the rear wore out completely. would definitely try the pacestar in the rear if I were to go with them again. The Trail star in the front was still in pretty good shape when I replaced it after 6-8 months.

I've got several pretty long test rides/demos on the Trail Kings and like those as well. Maybe a bit less grippy in turns than the HD but I love the way they mold themselves around rocks and stick in chaussy stuff.

Both are farely rounded profile and are much more gradual in hooking up as you lean in. Less aggressive riders really like them for this. Much more forgiving. They are not like the tires you describe with no transition that you have to really lean over agressively and set the edge.

I would think they would both work really well in the SoMo granite for climbing and tech. Big volume, low pressure, grippy. I think the Trail Kings in the Black Chili will outlast the HD's by a fair margin though. I think they roll a little faster too.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Not that it is a fair test, but Rockdude and I rolled side by side on the road on a downhill section. We weight about the same, I am taller, was wearing armor and a long sleeve jersey so I probably had more air resistance. Rockdude was on Enve + TK (not sure which hubs), I was on TS HD on flows laced to King hubs. I was very noticably faster rolling down the hill (on pavement).

Having said that, I would look for another tire for the rear for AZ chunk. The HD tires I have will last a long time here in the PNW. The HD up front would be good, but I would recommend the TK, or another tire in back. I also think, in the chunk, its easier to flat the rear on those sharp rocks. So having a heavier/beefier tire with a harder compound is probably the way to go. I like the HR as a rear, have never tried it up front. Maybe something else from Schwalbe Fat Albert or Big Betty?

Of note, there is also the 2013 Der Kaiser at 1150g. This may be the tire I go to in the rear, after the HD dies. I may actually race DH on it this year.

Continental Bicycle -Der Kaiser 2.4 Projekt
 

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#48 · (Edited)
Not that it is a fair test, but Rockdude and I rolled side by side on the road on a downhill section. We weight about the same, I am taller, was wearing armor and a long sleeve jersey so I probably had more air resistance. Rockdude was on Enve + TK (not sure which hubs), I was on TS HD on flows laced to King hubs. I was very noticably faster rolling down the hill (on pavement).
Hmm. That is surprising. Just my butt feel, but on my trails the HD in TS compound felt noticebly slower than the TKs. Proof positive that CK hubs are faster than ENVE hubs I guess (or you're just a better coaster than Rockdude). :thumbsup:

Admitedly, I haven't ridden the TK's as much and only very little on my home trails and not at all on my 5 Spot, so your test may be more scientific than mine.
 
#9 ·
Some of the weights i quoted above are slightly off. i just weighed a bunch of tires for reference:

Conti TK 2.2 UST 740g
Conti TK 2.4 UST 1210g
Conti TK 2.4 Prot. 1010g
Conti Baron 2.3 APEX 760g
Maxxis HR II EXO 3C/60a 900g/910g
Maxxis DHF 2.5 EXO 860g
Maxxis DHF 2.5 2-ply 1350g
Maxxis Ardent 2.4 2-ply 1170g
 
#11 ·
Thanks for all of the info guys. It seems like the best place to start is the HD TSC/PSC combo. My brother is running the HD TSC/TSC on his Chili and loves them here in the valley. He is running 24PSI and I was pretty surprised at how beefy the sidewall felt. Hard for me to believe that they weigh less than 800grams. I normally kill tires that light on SOMO (I've never been accused of being a smooth rider).

I know for sure I won't run a TSC in the back, but a PSC might be a good compromise. I burn through a Butcher SX on the front in 3-4 months. I do run tubeless, and I believe the EVOs are TL.
 
#14 ·
Thanks for all of the info guys. It seems like the best place to start is the HD TSC/PSC combo. My brother is running the HD TSC/TSC on his Chili and loves them here in the valley. He is running 24PSI and I was pretty surprised at how beefy the sidewall felt. Hard for me to believe that they weigh less than 800grams. I normally kill tires that light on SOMO (I've never been accused of being a smooth rider).

I know for sure I won't run a TSC in the back, but a PSC might be a good compromise. I burn through a Butcher SX on the front in 3-4 months. I do run tubeless, and I believe the EVOs are TL.
I can confirm the HD TSC/PSC combo is excellent on the Chilcotin. I saved a bunch of money buying directly from Deutschland. Check out bike-discount.de
 
#16 ·
guys, this is a great thread. As a Noob i'm second guessing every five minutes what tires I should start out with. TSC, have you put any thought into the Schwable HD Gravity. With all that rock you are exposed too the slight weight penality on the tire might be worth it. I think they come in the three Schwable compounds and they are folding tubeless. Anway food for thought. Also does anyone know if there is any differences between the 2012 and 2013 Hd's. Bike-discounte has the 2012's on sale for a bit cheaper than the 2013's.
sorry I meant TiSS'er not TSC......
 
#26 ·
Hey Sleevem1! I actually asked bike-discount.de about the tires and they informed me they there is no difference between the 2012 and 2013 models, except for some writing on the side wall. Apparently, when those are gone, they're gone, and you'll pay the slight upcharge for the 2013 HDs. Hope this helps.
 
#27 ·
You guys which have had issues with the Maxxis Exos as tubeless. Did you run them straight up on the rim or setup DIY with a 20" tube? I had no issue on a 721s with a 20" tube but when I tried them straight on the rim with some tape for the spoke holes I burped them like crazy within 5 minutes of leaving the car. Installed a tube and completed the ride. I wouldnt even setup them up on a tubeless rim.
I am planning on trying the HDs on both CB Opiums and non UST rims. Can they be installed on a non UST rim without a 20" tube? I have only just received my Opiums for my new trail bike and have never run UST rims before so its always been DIY tubeless. Last time I ran Schwalbes they were not tubeless ready so I always used a 20" tube. Obviously I woudl prefer to loose the littel extra weight and not run any tubes but it does give alot of added bead support.
 
#28 ·
I've run 2.4 trail king black chillis and 2.35 Hans dampf's the tubeless ready pacestar ones and I prefer the Hans dampf's. They are set up tubeless on flow rims. interestingly I have never flatted the Hans dampf's but have the trail kings. Both times were punctured sidewalls.
 
#29 ·
FWIW, I really like the Hans in pretty much all conditions here in the PNW. I've only ran it in the rear however. (I like Muddy Mary up front). I also ran the trail star compound, tubeless on Flows, and about 27 psi. I'm about 215 RTR, but I might start trying to lower my PSI a bit.

The one on my hardtail has been on awhile and still has life left in it, but that doesn't see as much riding as the Chili. The first one on the Chili lasted ok the first few months I had it, say April until about July. Then I really started working on my corners, and the thing went to hell in a handbasket fast. :D:D:D Knobs tearing, some ripping clean off. I threw another one on since I got a pair of new ones for a screaming deal, so we'll see how this one wears.

If this one wears fast like the last one, I might give the Pace Star compound a go.
 
#79 ·
FWIW, I really like the Hans in pretty much all conditions here in the PNW. I've only ran it in the rear however. (I like Muddy Mary up front). I also ran the trail star compound, tubeless on Flows, and about 27 psi. I'm about 215 RTR, but I might start trying to lower my PSI a bit.

The one on my hardtail has been on awhile and still has life left in it, but that doesn't see as much riding as the Chili. The first one on the Chili lasted ok the first few months I had it, say April until about July. Then I really started working on my corners, and the thing went to hell in a handbasket fast. :D:D:D Knobs tearing, some ripping clean off. I threw another one on since I got a pair of new ones for a screaming deal, so we'll see how this one wears.

If this one wears fast like the last one, I might give the Pace Star compound a go.
I was re-reading back over this thread to refresh my memory about the comments on certain tires. The HD TSC that I mentioned above that fell apart was warrantied by Schwalbe. I threw it in a corner last fall and forgot about it until a few months ago, and filled out the warranty claim online. Figured it was worth a shot before I threw it in the trash.

Ended up speaking with a Schwalbe rep, and he said they can't figure out why some HD's do this (knobs just tearing and ripping completely off). He said they have tires out of the same batches doing this, and others holding up just fine. So who knows...
 
#32 ·
Yea i noticed with the Schwalbe tires you can run super low PSI .. I had a HD out back setup tubeless and it felt good . Grippy but this is for NE conditions .

I had some Big Bettys out back on my DH bike , worked in every condition possibly and took some super chunky rocks and held up just fine .
 
#33 ·
Had another long ride on the HD's today. Desert loose over hardpack, steep climbs and descents. The longest descent was very loose due to some recent trail maintenance and is littered with very tight switchbacks that have steep run-ins and exposure so your entry position and tracking is critical. The front tire felt like if I turned into the switchback it wanted to continue straight ahead. It had a squirmy feeling when the bike is upright. This sensation had me out of sorts as I didn't recall it when I rode the same trail a couple weeks ago (same conditions) with the Butcher on the front. I'm not sure what it is - maybe the lack of a channel and outer rail of knobs, round profile, just me, not sure? On the faster descents I wasn't feeling them either. I thought I had adjusted and started to like but today just wasn't working. I'm not sure what to think - they felt great climbing! Good traction and acceleration and don't feel like I'm pedaling a 'heavy' tire. Maybe the transition knobs give the vague feeling? Nevegal comes to mind (yuck). I think I just prefer a tire without them. I'll continue to ride the HD's to see if I can adjust but wanted to throw out this feedback and see if anybody else has experienced this coming from a tire without transition knobs.

Also, tiSSer I know you're used to no transition knobs so maybe proceed with caution. If I find I can't deal with them and they still have life left I'll mail them to you to try out. I need to slim down my tire collection:D
 
#35 ·
Lance,

Thanks for the detailed review. I know the feeling you are talking about, and I have yet to find a tire with transition knobs that give me that "oh so good feeling". Tires without transitions just seem to work well for me.

We hit Holbert today, and the Butcher was just hooking up. I never think about them, and they are real easy to get over on the side knobs. I was really close to ordering a set of HDs, but for some reason decided to put a Butcher SX I had sitting around on the rear of the bike to replace a Ground Control GRID. I like the GC, it rolls fast, but the side knobs are suspect. I am unable to get them to hook up on off camber rock. Unfortunately the Butcher is very soft and roll like a$$. I'll see how these work out, though I know they won't last long on the rear.

I am trying out the DHF/DHR 2.35 combon on the Endo. I will see how that works out as maybe I will try the 2.5 DHF 3C EXO on the Chili. Maybe HighRoller 2 EXO on the rear.

Does anyone know why the Ardent DH is no longer listed?
 
#37 ·
One thing to remember about the Hans Dampf is they are big, actually f*ucking Huge.
Aired up tubeless on 819's, they measure out at 2.55"

I have been using them as my "trail" tires, both TrailStar for 2 seasons. Love em.

michael
 
#40 ·
I have been running the HD as a front for a while now. For my riding and locale I prefer it over the DHF. To me it is more predictable and easier to manipulate. The tire has a pronounced "I'm washing out" feeling but a quick flick of the bars gets you back in traction. Running a Fat Albert UST in the back, it has great traction, and rolls well.
 
#50 ·
So general consensus is HD front and this is what I am looking trying next month. How do the FA and NN compare to each other for the rear? I have run a WW and it was good but I tore it up real quick. The knobbies were just too small and the siping seemed to weaken the tire as far as durability goes. Braking on hardpack didnt agree with the WW.
 
#51 · (Edited)
HD trailstar are a good PNW winter tire if you can afford $160 every 3 months? Light, sticky and burly sidewalls are awesome for low pressure slow greasy tech stuff... but they don't last especially the rear. They also tend to wash out when things get fast and aggressive (due to transition knobs). For me, most of the smaller transition knobs quickly sheared right off, and then the outer knobs eroded to 'useless' about 10 rides later.

I just mounted up a set of Butcher SX, and so far REALLY like them. Strangely they are also much lighter than the advertised 950 grams, mine are 827 (might need some digging into). SX's are also slightly bigger than the Butcher 'Control' version which are very narrow for a 2.3" And if you ride gnar don't even think about 'controls' they are paper thin.

SX are probably what most will call a Minion DHF copy... but I say wrong!! DHF roll like pigs in mud. If you pedal to the top SX are very respectable rollers, and won't have you cussing all the way up, lol. When you drop in...ride much bigger than any Minion Boss! You will be amazed!

So, If you're looking for a sturdy, light AM tire, that likes to go fast... I would say check them out.

IMO
 
#52 ·
I don't have any HD experience but I really like the rubber/tread on the TK for the rear. The only complaint is the sidewall could be a little bit beefier IMO. The black chili compound wears well and I get gobs of traction.
 
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