Results 1 to 83 of 83
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954

    Endorphin thoughts

    The Endorphin is exactly as stated a trail bike with an aggressive geometry to provide confidence and stability. It is meant for long rides and pedaling fast.

    I built the Endorphin more on the aggressive side. Complete build weighs 29.9lbs, note this is probably the upper extreme for most Endorphin builds (at least it should be). I have the new 2013 Fox Float 160 RC2. I am waiting for the parts to reduce the travel to 150mm. At 160mm, the front end is 66 degrees. It will be 66.5 at 150mm. The bike actually feels good with the 160mm on it now – a little flop but nothing overly bad.

    Like the Podium, the new design is well executed and updated with the Noel’s latest improvements.

    I swapped the Fox CTD out for a PUSH Monarch RT3 – much better control throughout its stroke.

    As said, the Endorphin is meant for pedaling. You can feel the efficiency and lets you ride one cog smaller. I find it different than my current and previous Knolly bikes. In general, the Knolly suspension is described as active and on technical climbs it caterpillars up. The Endorphin is not as active and a bit harsher, this is a trade-off for speed. There is still suspension, but it is no Delirium, which is to be expected. However, the geometry lets you rail trails. I find the shorter chainstays hook up well in the corners. The improvement in pedaling – gives you a bit more snap and input of energy.

    My Endorphin build is almost the same as my Delirium. My Delirium with air shock and air fork weighs 33.9 lbs.

    With similar builds, geometry – one could think that these bikes would feel similarly. They are different bikes! As recommended, the Endorphin should be built as trail bike. I definitely over built mine. However, with lighter build, I am not sure if I would like it as much. It is something that I need to consider.

    The Endorphin is lighter and more agile owing to the weight reduction, and the extra snap at the pedals – you start looking for features in the trail to hop off.

    Recently, owing to weather and available free time, I have been riding trails close to my house with both the Delirium and Endorphin, which are rolling singletrack that require a fast pace. They are fun and are the primary reason for the Endorphin. Farther up the road in Santa Cruz the trails are more aggressive with long climbs and faster descents, which are more Delirium centric.

    This is sort of unique to test different frames with relatively similar builds.
    I guess the first question, what is the difference between two bikes, one with a pedal platform in the shock and one with platform designed into the suspension?

    ****** a few months ago I got the PUSH Monarch air shock for the Delirium. Dominic had been ridden his PUSH Monarch and loving it. For a long time I wanted to try an air shock on the Delirium. I was surprised by the result – it is a much better pedaler, but can still handle abuse. It rides a bit higher in its travel (similar to the Fox Float), but when aimed downhill just works very nicely. Yes, it can’t handle the rougher rocky sections as well as a coil, but it isn’t bad. I am not sure it if is the long travel nature of the bike, the suspension characteristics, or the custom-tune, but the end result is awesome. I love riding the Delirium in this mode. I would ride this bike in this mode for most trails anywhere.

    We recently did a shuttle trip to Santa Barbara and Dom and I converted our Delirium to coil-mode (coil rear and Marz 66 up front). The Deliriums ruled these trails in this mode. However, when we got back and switched back to air mode – we both commented on how capable the Delirium is in the air setup.

    I ride the Delirium as my primary bike. It fits me perfectly.

    Surprisingly, I don’t find the air-mode Delirium to loose too much ground to the Endorphin with respect to pedaling. Even though the Endorphin pedals faster and you can feel the acceleration relative to the Delirium, the Delirium pedals very well. Trust me, I am truly shocked by this finding.

    Now, turn the bikes downhill and it is not even a fair contest. The Endorphin can handle it, but the Delirium is just way too good in this realm.

    In summary, the Endorphin is a rocket with great geometry that lets you rail trails, but it is a harsher ride.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Endorphin thoughts-endo1.jpg  

    Endorphin thoughts-endo2.jpg  

    Endorphin thoughts-endo3.jpg  

    Endorphin thoughts-endo4.jpg  

    Endorphin thoughts-endo5.jpg  

    Endorphin thoughts-endo6.jpg  

    Last edited by Dude!; 11-30-2012 at 09:42 AM.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    8,092
    Nice bike! I went back & forth between the Chilcotin and Endorphin for my local riding, and my build would have been just like yours (heh, down to the saint cranks!).

    Thanks for posting up your thoughts, I'll have to send you my Chil for a review if I can part with it, that way you can provide a whole-lineup review.

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,536
    Yep, Delirium stays until it breaks, or something truly can replace it, for many reasons similar to above.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: craigstr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    4,357
    You are going to need pontoons and a paddle for that thing after this weekend.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dominator13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,689
    How does it compare to the "old" Endorphin, if you can remember what that feels like?
    "You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old because you stop playing!" - Unigeezer

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominator13 View Post
    How does it compare to the "old" Endorphin, if you can remember what that feels like?
    This is from memory...I have had a number of bikes since demoing the Endorphin.

    The old Endorphin was more of an all mountain bike. It was heavier and very planted, plush, pedaled okay. The reason that I didn't go for it - I felt that your DT pedaled better and provided a lot more confidence. It was time for me to step up to a big bike.

    The new Endorphin is firmly in the trail bike category and differs from the original Endorphin. There is a lot of gray with bike categories (XC, trail, AM, FR, DH). If you prefer more aggressive geometry for a small bike, the new Endorphin is it. It is fast and stable for a trail bike. The new Endorphin has one of the longest wheelbases on the market, and shortish chainstays. I like this geometry.

    The wheelbase for most trail bikes for a medium frame are around 44 inches. The new Endorphin is 45 inches. This is not overly long for AM bikes. So you are getting AM geometry in a trail bike form.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: G-AIR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,503
    Thanks for keeping us posted. Great review!

    TG

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: SOCAL_STINKY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    217
    Love to read a review between the chili and endorphin.

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    262
    Thanks dude for the report. I've been waiting for your view as I know what I'm feeling on the bike but not always good at transfering that in words.
    I got the chilly to be my delirium in "light" mode. CCDB air light wheels and air fork. Well the air fork got replace with a Marz 55 ti but it still comes in right at 30 lbs. I had many miles on my delirium in air mode as well and like you, found it incredibly capable and I feel the chilly is extremely close to that set up.
    Now going back and forth between chilly and Endo, I thought it was me being out of shape but the Endo feels sluggish. Don't get me wrong, it's fast but it demands that your on the pedals and hammering compared to the chilly where yes it's slower but it feels as if the bike is doing the work for you. It's almost like there is stored energy in the suspension that catapults you forward on the trail. Yesterday, I rolled into a super chunky area and came to a track stand with a rock in front of my front tire and I thought for sure I was putting a foot down but I let off the brakes and magically rolled over the rock as if someone gave me a push.
    Also my Endo is wicked light (24 lbs) but when I get on the chilly I don't notice the increased weight that much. The more I go back and forth, the more I think the chilly is pure magical. But I think it just fit what I like to ride and my style of riding. In contrast, I'm sure when the snow melts and I'm riding my local buffed out trails I'll be on the Endo more.
    Cheers

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: SOCAL_STINKY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    217
    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    . Yesterday, I rolled into a super chunky area and came to a track stand with a rock in front of my front tire and I thought for sure I was putting a foot down but I let off the brakes and magically rolled over the rock as if someone gave me a push.
    That must have been Dustybottoms giving you a push

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    Thanks dude for the report. I've been waiting for your view as I know what I'm feeling on the bike but not always good at transfering that in words.
    I got the chilly to be my delirium in "light" mode. CCDB air light wheels and air fork. Well the air fork got replace with a Marz 55 ti but it still comes in right at 30 lbs. I had many miles on my delirium in air mode as well and like you, found it incredibly capable and I feel the chilly is extremely close to that set up.
    Now going back and forth between chilly and Endo, I thought it was me being out of shape but the Endo feels sluggish. Don't get me wrong, it's fast but it demands that your on the pedals and hammering compared to the chilly where yes it's slower but it feels as if the bike is doing the work for you. It's almost like there is stored energy in the suspension that catapults you forward on the trail. Yesterday, I rolled into a super chunky area and came to a track stand with a rock in front of my front tire and I thought for sure I was putting a foot down but I let off the brakes and magically rolled over the rock as if someone gave me a push.
    Also my Endo is wicked light (24 lbs) but when I get on the chilly I don't notice the increased weight that much. The more I go back and forth, the more I think the chilly is pure magical. But I think it just fit what I like to ride and my style of riding. In contrast, I'm sure when the snow melts and I'm riding my local buffed out trails I'll be on the Endo more.
    Cheers
    Thanks! Your reports have been excellent!

    Wow - 24lbs that is impressive that is lighter than my Blur TRC. I know that my build is on the heavier side - particularly my cranks. It would be hard for me to loose 5 lbs without giving up one of my kidneys.

    My Endorphin rides have all been solo rides. With tinkering with things, I didn't want to hold the group. I am looking forward to riding with my buddies. I am also looking forward to riding it in some more technical and gnarly trails.

    Huh -I haven't found the Endorphin sluggish at all. I found the Endorphin to be very consistent. On the Blur TRC, I found that bike to be sluggish on steep climbs. This would frustrate me, because this is when I wanted this bike to excel. I felt faster on my Delirium than on the Blur TRC on the steeps. I would also make steep technical climbs with the Delirium and the following ride with the Blur I couldn't make sections. I realize that part of this is knowing every little nuance associated with bike's response. I have this with the Delirium.

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: craigstr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    4,357
    Jamie... I know you know this but I will say it anyway. You could shave 3+ pounds off that bike by going with some lighter (but just as tough) components. Like you said cranks, carbon race face or XO (I know you arent a big SRAM fan), carbon bars, lighter saddle, lighter stem, those big tires arent doing you any favors in the weight department, and dare I say it, maybe a Fox 34? I know you like the components that you ride and they make you feel comfortable but there is a plethora of lighter stuff out there that works just as good. If you sell that kidney you could totally afford a bunch of carbon bling.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    Jamie... I know you know this but I will say it anyway. You could shave 3+ pounds off that bike by going with some lighter (but just as tough) components. Like you said cranks, carbon race face or XO (I know you arent a big SRAM fan), carbon bars, lighter saddle, lighter stem, those big tires arent doing you any favors in the weight department, and dare I say it, maybe a Fox 34? I know you like the components that you ride and they make you feel comfortable but there is a plethora of lighter stuff out there that works just as good. If you sell that kidney you could totally afford a bunch of carbon bling.
    Thanks - much appreciated. Yeah I am considering some of this. Tires are first on the list. Most of the parts are carry-over. I am not in the mode to spend any more money on bikes at the moment. Between a new Podium and a new Endorphin and financial losses in selling stuff the previous frames and parts- I am tapped out. This will give me time to ride more and consider my next move.

    Fox 34 - weren't you the one that said the weight difference didn't just the the 34 over the 36

  14. #14
    TSC
    TSC is offline
    Buehliever
    Reputation: TSC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    873
    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Between a new Podium and a new Endorphin and financial losses in selling stuff the previous frames and parts- I am tapped out. This will give me time to ride more and consider my next move.
    You own the new Podium, the new Endorphin, the newest Delirium, and aren't going to complete the set with a Chilcotin? Shame on you!
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: craigstr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    4,357

    Hmmm...don't remember that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Thanks - much appreciated. Yeah I am considering some of this. Tires are first on the list. Most of the parts are carry-over. I am not in the mode to spend any more money on bikes at the moment. Between a new Podium and a new Endorphin and financial losses in selling stuff the previous frames and parts- I am tapped out. This will give me time to ride more and consider my next move.

    Fox 34 - weren't you the one that said the weight difference didn't just the the 34 over the 36
    I remember we had a discussion about putting a 32mm/150 on my El Guapo but I wanted to stay with a 36, the 34 wasn't even available then. Looks like you save about .42 lbs with a 34 vs. 36, you could save a pound going with a RS Revelation 150 and they are pretty stiff (and PUSH works on them too). Sucks being tapped out but hey.....you own three Knolly's, life is good!

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    131

    Sizing

    Dude thanks for the report. I am seriously considering getting an Endo to compliment my Delirium. Could you compare sizing between your Endo and Delirium?

    I am stuck in between a medium and large. I had a medium Delirium that hurt my knees when pedaling a lot. Switched it to a large and the pedaling is better but I liked going down hill better on the medium. The endo has a bit longer ETT and a steeper seat angle, I might be able to squeeze into a medium.

    Thanks.

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    You own the new Podium, the new Endorphin, the newest Delirium, and aren't going to complete the set with a Chilcotin? Shame on you!
    I know first world problems. Trust me I have no complaints. Being a student for most of my life making less than $10k/year until I was in my 30s, I know that I am very fortunate.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: G-AIR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,503
    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    I know first world problems. Trust me I have no complaints. Being a student for most of my life making less than $10k/year until I was in my 30s, I know that I am very fortunate.
    Are you still studying ripcurrents?

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by craigstr View Post
    I remember we had a discussion about putting a 32mm/150 on my El Guapo but I wanted to stay with a 36, the 34 wasn't even available then. Looks like you save about .42 lbs with a 34 vs. 36, you could save a pound going with a RS Revelation 150 and they are pretty stiff (and PUSH works on them too). Sucks being tapped out but hey.....you own three Knolly's, life is good!
    Once I recognized the Endorphin's place, I actually started reading up on Revelations. I got a Marz 44 Ti for the Blur TRC, but it didn't like it. I think the Revelations could be great fork for this frame based on my readings. I would love to try one out.

    My interest is really piqued to build the Endorphin (or the Delirium) up as 1x11.

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by Falling View Post
    Dude thanks for the report. I am seriously considering getting an Endo to compliment my Delirium. Could you compare sizing between your Endo and Delirium?

    I am stuck in between a medium and large. I had a medium Delirium that hurt my knees when pedaling a lot. Switched it to a large and the pedaling is better but I liked going down hill better on the medium. The endo has a bit longer ETT and a steeper seat angle, I might be able to squeeze into a medium.

    Thanks.
    I am a tad over 5' 8" with shorter legs and longer torso. Initially the medium Delirium felt a little short to me in the cockpit, but now I think it is perfect. You are more stretched out on the Endorphin and I notice it.

    On the Delirium, I have the saddle pushed back. On the Endorphin, the saddle is pushed more forward. Owing to this, when I drop the saddle and I am in a turning position, my knees don't hit the saddle on the Delirium. My knees do hit the saddle on the Endorphin, I need to adjust the saddle position a little a bit or my turning position, because it throws me off a little bit in turns.

    In general, switching between Endorphin and Delirium is effortless. I always had a learning curve switching between the Blur TRC and the Delirium.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    Are you still studying ripcurrents?
    Haha - yep! I working with the Australians at the moment on rip current safety. We are jumping in rips with GPS and heart monitors and swimming in various directions.

    I am not studying rip currents as much, though my PhD student is focused on rip currents and exchange. We are trying to understand mixing and exchange of biology and pollutants in the surf zone and farther offshore (vice-a-versa). I have a project studying the nearshore transport associated with the BP oil spill. We will be deploying 200 GPS drifters next summer in the Gulf of Mexico.

    I have been all over the map with my research lately. I was tinkering with unmanned vehicles for some time. I was studying river dynamics, which was a lot of fun. Now I am studying inlet processes. I am the invited speaker at next week's conference.

  22. #22
    TSC
    TSC is offline
    Buehliever
    Reputation: TSC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    873
    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    I have a project studying the nearshore transport associated with the BP oil spill. We will be deploying 200 GPS drifters next summer in the Gulf of Mexico.
    A year or so ago at applied mathematics conference at Snowbird ski resort, did you happen to speak with some random guy wandering with a girl in the corridors about your work and about Garrett Lisi's work related to string theory/unification theory?

    If so, we've met (and I am really that clueless, but curious).
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  23. #23
    TSC
    TSC is offline
    Buehliever
    Reputation: TSC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    873
    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    I know first world problems. Trust me I have no complaints. Being a student for most of my life making less than $10k/year until I was in my 30s, I know that I am very fortunate.
    You need to buy a Chili, or at least get a long-term loaner, so you can compare the three bikes--the Podium being the outlier--and give us a writeup!
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: craigstr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    4,357

    Rev's are good and 1x11 is intriguing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Once I recognized the Endorphin's place, I actually started reading up on Revelations. I got a Marz 44 Ti for the Blur TRC, but it didn't like it. I think the Revelations could be great fork for this frame based on my readings. I would love to try one out.

    My interest is really piqued to build the Endorphin (or the Delirium) up as 1x11.
    I'm thinking about switching the El Guapo to XX1 since it is back to trail duty since discovering the bliss of 29" wheels in the XC setting. The Rockstar 29 I currently have has a Revelation World Cup and it is surprisingly stiff even in the 29" version.

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: G-AIR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,503
    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Haha - yep! I working with the Australians at the moment on rip current safety. We are jumping in rips with GPS and heart monitors and swimming in various directions.

    I am not studying rip currents as much, though my PhD student is focused on rip currents and exchange. We are trying to understand mixing and exchange of biology and pollutants in the surf zone and farther offshore (vice-a-versa). I have a project studying the nearshore transport associated with the BP oil spill. We will be deploying 200 GPS drifters next summer in the Gulf of Mexico.

    I have been all over the map with my research lately. I was tinkering with unmanned vehicles for some time. I was studying river dynamics, which was a lot of fun. Now I am studying inlet processes. I am the invited speaker at next week's conference.
    Cool stuff. My job revolves around the ocean and ripcurrents. It would be cool to read about some of your studies.

    Sorry for the derail.
    Last edited by G-AIR; 12-02-2012 at 12:08 AM.

  26. #26
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    262
    As for sluggish, I think part of it is that I have a 34 tooth ring so I am finding that I'm in a slightly bigger gear coming out of slower sections. Much bigger difference then a 32 then I realized.

    And dude, About the monarch vs. Ctd, does that monarch really aloe you to pump the bike more because that is exactly what I finding to be very difficult with the ctd. I've tried different air pressure and playing with the rebound but there is just not enough adjustment in this shock. I havent taken the volume spacer out yet as I feel that it will just blow through it's travel quicker. I want to stick with the stock shock but it's firmness is hurting me.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Some more updates...

    I have had some more ride times with the Endorphin and PUSH. I am probably going to have to get a re-tune (which is free within the first 90 days). I spoke with Nick at PUSH and explained my experience and he wants me to get some more ride time to ensure my thoughts. I would like less initial compression and more mid-stroke compression.

    The mid-stroke and end-stroke are much better with the PUSH shock. However, I am still finding that the bike is harsher than I prefer in its initial travel and then uses too much of its travel too quickly. This is still a lot better than the FOX CTD. I tend to leave it wide open. I use the middle setting sometimes. The firm setting is like a hardtail.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    56
    I would like to hear if anyone has tried the new endo with a ccdb or ccdb air. I know that on my Mojo HD, I had that same sensation of being either too firm initially then blowing through its travel too easily or If you decreased the air pressure to compensate for the initial firmness it was just mush the rest of the way. When I changed to a coil, all that went away. I'm sure a better air shock would have had the same effect but I just happened to have an 8.5 x 2.5 coil sitting around. Too bad Knolly doesn't take 8.5 x 2.5.

  29. #29
    Perpetual Hack
    Reputation: mykel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,977
    8.5x2.5 is Delirium size.

    michael
    A Dirtbag since 1969
    A Knomer since 2007

    Knolly Podium
    Knolly Delirium
    Knolly Endorphin

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation: G-AIR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,503
    Anymore updates?

  31. #31
    ಠ_ಠ
    Reputation: dulyebr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    3,192
    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    I would like less initial compression and more mid-stroke compression.
    Sounds like you want a coil. You obviously didn't try to build a fly-weight, why not just get a coil-over shock?

  32. #32
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    dulyebr- funny you should mention this. I actually contacted Ryan about trying his CCDB that he is selling from his Chilcotin (he now has an AVY). He is mailing it to me - Knolly riders rule. This way I can get a feel for it and use this knowledge for the PUSH monarch re-tune. Who knows may just end up liking it....more to come.

    G-Air - I have been away on various work trips over the last 2 weeks. I did spend a bit more time focusing on the air pressure for the Endorphin and got it to feel a lot better - only one short ride with this modification. It is a lot more sensitive to air pressure than the Delirium.

    PUSH wants me to spend more time on the bike so that we can dial the re-tune in properly. I wrote a diatribe for them.

  33. #33
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    I finally had a great ride on the Endorphin today - and it is about time. (Note I have been spoiled by my longer-travel Delirium for a long time.) As I have mentioned the Endorphin is fast, the geometry is killer, but a little harsh for my complete liking, so I have been tinkering with the suspension a lot.

    There is a symbiotic balance between the fork and rear shock. Many of us are aware of this. Look at all of the folks discussing the AVY shock who no want an AVY fork for balance it out. Some times you can a mismatch that works (firmer rear, softer front - air shock, coil fork).

    The other thing that can happen is by improving the characteristic of the fork (or shock), you can inherently improve the rear shock (the fork) and the overall suspension behavior. And this is exactly what I did...

    I am running the front fork a bit softer on the Endorphin than I run on the Delirium and this has made the rear end feel much better on the Endorphin, and the overall behavior very enjoyable. I also opened up the rebound a lot more on the fork and shock and this has really helped this bike. Now, the bike descends well while still being playful. It actually feels like a bike with 140mm of travel. I also installed a 2.25 schwalbe rocket ron tire on the rear. I am probably going to get one for the front. I haven't ridden a sub 2.4 in tires in a few years, so I wanted to try one out first.

    On the downhills, I was skipping all of the roots, bumps, etc but today I was picking landing spots much farther down the trail. I was also going much faster (more confidence), because it was working so well. The bike felt goooood! The other thing that could be happening is that seals on everything are breaking in. It is fun bunny hopping this bike, owing to the shorter stays, just lean back and the bike gets up.

    In the seated position, the fox float is relatively stiff. The Endorphin suspension is stiff in the seated position. Running the front end softer and the shock in the open pro-pedal, allows the bike to climb technical stuff better. In the middle shock setting, it is much faster and a bit harsher, and it is very stiff in the firm setting - so you have options.

    On the Delirium, there seems to be a wider range of getting a good setting. On the Endorphin, I found that this has taken more tinkering, which is probably associated with short travel nature of the bike.

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: G-AIR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,503
    Good to hear you are sticking with it for the time being. I don't have as much experience as you, but I know it takes me a long time to get things dialed in on a new bike. I've been riding my Chili for a year now and think I just about have it dialed. I probably don't ride as much as most but its still been a fun process.

    Did the Endo feel too XC at first? I guess that would be good news for me as I am looking for as much distance between it and my Chili as possible.

    Thanks for your input.

    TG
    Last edited by G-AIR; 12-16-2012 at 10:04 PM.

  35. #35
    Pivoteer
    Reputation: tiSS'er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,436
    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    Good to hear you are sticking with it for the time being. I don't have as much experience as you, but I know it takes me a long time to get things dialed in on a new bike. I've been riding my Chili for a year now and think I just about have it dialed. I probably don't ride as much as most but its still been a fun process.

    Did the Endo feel to XC at first? I guess that would be good news for me as I am looking for as much distance between it and my Chili.

    Tanks for your input.

    TG
    Exactly. My initial impression of the new Endo is that is was a Chili LITE. Sounds like it is more geared toward the XC side of the business, which should be perfect in line up.

    Geez, now I just gotta figure out how I can afford one, and rid my garage of the "other brand" in there.

    It took me at least 3 months to dial in the Chili how I wanted it.
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

  36. #36
    Knomer
    Reputation: Dusty Bottoms's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,373
    I think the most common misconception thus far regarding the new Endorphin, is probably held by owners of the original Endorphin. These folks 'might' be expecting the new version to be the same(original)140mm all mountain design that ended up best suited with a 36mm chassis fork at 160 travel. That was then.

    With the new round of designs, Noel tweaked the kinematics on the Chilcotin and Endorphin to accomplish different things(terrain, intended purpose, etc). So while the overall finished package(s) might look very similar, they are different animals, meant for different tasks, with some amount of overlap in the middle.

    I think they key with all this is too appreciate the strong suits of each design. I think G-Air is onto something that Dude! is warming up to... it is really fun to have a couple bikes that are wildly different in configuration, meant for totally different experiences on the trail.
    Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    Good to hear you are sticking with it for the time being. I don't have as much experience as you, but I know it takes me a long time to get things dialed in on a new bike. I've been riding my Chili for a year now and think I just about have it dialed. I probably don't ride as much as most but its still been a fun process.

    Did the Endo feel to XC at first? I guess that would be good news for me as I am looking for as much distance between it and my Chili.

    Tanks for your input.

    TG
    The Endorphin has confused me. Based on the numbers (travel and geometry), this would appear to be a very aggressive trail bike falling potential closer to an all mountain bike than an trail/xc bike. There are only a handful of bikes out there that blur this line. This is part of the reason that I purchased the Endorphin - also there is the Knolly brand which tends to step-up its product to the next tier (eg Chilcotin can handle 180mm fork, Delirium is indestructible, Podium is fast and plush). Deep down, I thought this was going to be a Specialized Stumpy Evo - but Noel's version of it.

    However, the bike initially felt like it has less travel and considering my build, really really surprised me. The geometry allows me to attack the trail, but it is harsher than I expected. I knew it wasn't going to be a Delirium or a Chilcotin. And it is probably me and it is mental thing in my head, because if the frame had less travel I would probably accept it more. But, the Endorphin has 5.5 inches of travel and to me this is a significant amount of travel.

    Everything about the bike is awesome....it is solid, stiff, well thought out, geometry is dialed. I know the frame can handle abuse.

    Seriously, I am dialing the Endorphin in now, but it has taken a little bit! I am much happy now! Last weekend, when I did some of this - it started opening my eyes. I getting closer. The Endorphin does behave differently whether sitting down or standing up and as I understand the bike more and I can adjust.

    I will trying Ryan's CCDB next week adding another data point for me. I am really curious to see how this feels. I have no clue whether this will be good or bad.

    I have been thinking a lot of about this - an aggressive trail bike is probably one of the hardest bike to design - because we want a bike that can handle a lot but pedal well at the same time. I haven't spent much time on a Chilcotin, but I imagine Noel was trying to put some distance between the Endorphin and the Chilcotin. I have been spoiled by the Delirium and I am also very comfortable with it.

  38. #38
    Nothing can stop me now
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,027
    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Exactly. My initial impression of the new Endo is that is was a Chili LITE. Sounds like it is more geared toward the XC side of the business, which should be perfect in line up.

    Geez, now I just gotta figure out how I can afford one, and rid my garage of the "other brand" in there.

    It took me at least 3 months to dial in the Chili how I wanted it.
    How long to dial in the Pivot?

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    Dude! is warming up to... it is really fun to have a couple bikes that are wildly different in configuration, meant for totally different experiences on the trail.
    I100% agree.

  40. #40
    Pivoteer
    Reputation: tiSS'er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,436
    Quote Originally Posted by bobo_krkk_NIN View Post
    How long to dial in the Pivot?
    Still not dialed, rides very harsh for a 4" travel 29er, doesn't absorb square edges well, and is rather uncomposed when things get rough. The Jet 9 with 85mm of travel is far more plush and controlled than the Pivot. I made a poor choice going to the DW bike for what I am looking for. If Knolly had a 100 or 120mm 29er, I'd be all over it.

    Unfortunately I have to live with my decision.
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

  41. #41
    Nothing can stop me now
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,027
    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Still not dialed, rides very harsh for a 4" travel 29er, doesn't absorb square edges well, and is rather uncomposed when things get rough. The Jet 9 with 85mm of travel is far more plush and controlled than the Pivot. I made a poor choice going to the DW bike for what I am looking for. If Knolly had a 100 or 120mm 29er, I'd be all over it.

    Unfortunately I have to live with my decision.
    That stinks. I would have thought the Sultan would have fit your style more in a 29er. More trail oriented than the XC 429. The last thing I think about on my DW Turner is harshness. In control is the feeling I have and much better than my old TNT version.

  42. #42
    Pivoteer
    Reputation: tiSS'er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,436
    Quote Originally Posted by bobo_krkk_NIN View Post
    That stinks. I would have thought the Sultan would have fit your style more in a 29er. More trail oriented than the XC 429. The last thing I think about on my DW Turner is harshness. In control is the feeling I have and much better than my old TNT version.
    Agreed. When I purchased the bike, I was waiting for my Chili to arrive and I wanted an XC bike for BCT, T100, etc. The bike works well here, but now that I have built the Chili a bit more burly for SOMO, Goat Camp, Moab, etc, I would like a slightly more versatile bike. I think a RIP9 or a Sultan would fit the bill for what I am looking at now. However, an Endorphin, with its clear separation from the Chili really is a very interesting option. I do like the 29er for our XC'ish stuff. A 120mm Knolly 29er would be a dream come true, and would give me a killer stable.
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

  43. #43
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rscecil007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,516
    I would really like to throw a leg over an Endo for a ride or two.

    My Chili is soon to be full coil and built on the burlier side, so I'd love to ride an Endo that's all air and a lightweight build, to really separate it as much as possible from my Chili. I can only imagine it'd be an incredibly fun bike for those trail days when the Chili wasn't really warranted, or I just wanted something different.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  44. #44
    Nothing can stop me now
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    1,027
    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Agreed. When I purchased the bike, I was waiting for my Chili to arrive and I wanted an XC bike for BCT, T100, etc. The bike works well here, but now that I have built the Chili a bit more burly for SOMO, Goat Camp, Moab, etc, I would like a slightly more versatile bike. I think a RIP9 or a Sultan would fit the bill for what I am looking at now. However, an Endorphin, with its clear separation from the Chili really is a very interesting option. I do like the 29er for our XC'ish stuff. A 120mm Knolly 29er would be a dream come true, and would give me a killer stable.
    Grab Lance's? Probably your best option. I like 140mm in a 26er for all my riding. Comfy XC.

    I like little separation in my bikes. Easier to be at home on them as I switch between them. Of course I only ride at SOMO since I live so close to it. 27.5 looks interesting to me and looks to be as close as Noel is going to come to a 29er?

  45. #45
    Yebo Numzaan
    Reputation: Muttonchops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    776
    I am hoping to have an Endo built up by the new year, provided everything gets delivered on schedule. Thanks for all the info Dude! I look forward to adding my thoughts.

    Out of interest...are you getting all the travel out of your suspension?
    I support EMBA

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by Muttonchops View Post
    I am hoping to have an Endo built up by the new year, provided everything gets delivered on schedule. Thanks for all the info Dude! I look forward to adding my thoughts.

    Out of interest...are you getting all the travel out of your suspension?
    Yes - I get full travel - too much so. The Fox CTD required running less sag. It is much better with the PUSH Monarch. I don't feel it, but I am still knocking the o-ring off the shaft with 2 rubber bands. I need to install 1 more or half of one of the Monarch bands to mitigate bottom out.

    For the PUSH retune, my request at the moment is to make the initial stroke plusher, but provide more mid-stroke and end stroke support. One of my concerns in doing this is that I am working against Noel's design.

    This is why I am trying Ryan's CCDB to see what tune works best.

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    262
    Quote Originally Posted by Muttonchops View Post

    Out of interest...are you getting all the travel out of your suspension?
    Can't speak for dude, but getting full travel has not been an issue with the fox ctd. i slide that little ring up before each ride and its at the bottom or about where i'd expect on whatever trail i was riding.

    As a side note, anyone want to trade a fox ctd for a ccdb air.

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rscecil007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,516
    Quote Originally Posted by Muttonchops View Post
    I am hoping to have an Endo built up by the new year, provided everything gets delivered on schedule. Thanks for all the info Dude! I look forward to adding my thoughts.
    Ok, I'm officially jealous.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    262
    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Agreed. When I purchased the bike, I was waiting for my Chili to arrive and I wanted an XC bike for BCT, T100, etc. The bike works well here, but now that I have built the Chili a bit more burly for SOMO, Goat Camp, Moab, etc, I would like a slightly more versatile bike. I think a RIP9 or a Sultan would fit the bill for what I am looking at now. However, an Endorphin, with its clear separation from the Chili really is a very interesting option. I do like the 29er for our XC'ish stuff. A 120mm Knolly 29er would be a dream come true, and would give me a killer stable.
    Hey Brandon,

    I'll be back in the PHX area in mid January and be there for a month or two. You are more then welcome to spend some time on my Endo. I"ll let ya know when I'm there.

    cheers
    pete

  50. #50
    Pivoteer
    Reputation: tiSS'er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,436
    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    Hey Brandon,

    I'll be back in the PHX area in mid January and be there for a month or two. You are more then welcome to spend some time on my Endo. I"ll let ya know when I'm there.

    cheers
    pete
    Thanks Pete!
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation: G-AIR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,503
    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    Hey Brandon,

    I'll be back in the PHX area in mid January and be there for a month or two. You are more then welcome to spend some time on my Endo. I"ll let ya know when I'm there.

    cheers
    pete
    Are you coming through LA before or after?

    Don't worry I have a safe place you can park the van.

    Tim

  52. #52
    mtbr member
    Reputation: G-AIR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,503
    Quote Originally Posted by Muttonchops View Post
    I am hoping to have an Endo built up by the new year, provided everything gets delivered on schedule. Thanks for all the info Dude! I look forward to adding my thoughts.

    Out of interest...are you getting all the travel out of your suspension?
    Mutton,
    What is your build going to look like?

    Look forward to hearing your reviews.

    TG

  53. #53
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    262
    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    Are you coming through LA before or after?

    Don't worry I have a safe place you can park the van.

    Tim
    well, i left my chilly in phoenix, so we have to go there first...unless i knock the dust off the delirium and bring it. ...we definitely want to make it out there so we'll be in touch.

  54. #54
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    659
    Quote Originally Posted by Muttonchops View Post
    I am hoping to have an Endo built up by the new year, provided everything gets delivered on schedule. Thanks for all the info Dude! I look forward to adding my thoughts.

    Out of interest...are you getting all the travel out of your suspension?
    Is the endogoing to be blue as well? Hum, may have to have another mini-Knollyfest in Fruita this spring again. If everything goes well with my ins co..we might have quadrulpets!!!
    "The rides to short to not kick against the pricks" M.F.

  55. #55
    Yebo Numzaan
    Reputation: Muttonchops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    776
    I am getting a M raw frame. I will try the CTD with a 34 150mm Float Fork and XT build. Pretty stoked. I need a bike that differs from the Chilcotin. I imagine these two Knollys will compliment each other for Enduro racing...with the Endo tackling most of the courses i have raced and the Chilly targetted for Whistler and any other beefy courses. 650B is definitely going to be an interesting option also!
    I support EMBA

  56. #56
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    1,519
    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Agreed. When I purchased the bike, I was waiting for my Chili to arrive and I wanted an XC bike for BCT, T100, etc. The bike works well here, but now that I have built the Chili a bit more burly for SOMO, Goat Camp, Moab, etc, I would like a slightly more versatile bike. I think a RIP9 or a Sultan would fit the bill for what I am looking at now. However, an Endorphin, with its clear separation from the Chili really is a very interesting option. I do like the 29er for our XC'ish stuff. A 120mm Knolly 29er would be a dream come true, and would give me a killer stable.
    Burner? Perhaps it's a little more bike travel wise than you want. It may suit you're needs for the xc trail stuff and racing you want to do. It will likely pedal every bit as well as the shorter travel bikes but feel a little sportier than the sultan I imagine.

  57. #57
    Pivoteer
    Reputation: tiSS'er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,436
    Quote Originally Posted by LncNuvue View Post
    Burner? Perhaps it's a little more bike travel wise than you want. It may suit you're needs for the xc trail stuff and racing you want to do. It will likely pedal every bit as well as the shorter travel bikes but feel a little sportier than the sultan I imagine.
    Chances are, my second bike will be a 120mm 29er. If this is the case, I think a Sultan or RIP9 would be my best options. I will have to see what the Endo is all about, what Knolly has coming out in the 650B arena (not all that interested in 650B at the moment).
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

  58. #58
    Yebo Numzaan
    Reputation: Muttonchops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    776
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob W View Post
    Is the endogoing to be blue as well? Hum, may have to have another mini-Knollyfest in Fruita this spring again. If everything goes well with my ins co..we might have quadrulpets!!!
    definitely keep me in the loop if you plan on going down to Fruita...i will be in like Flynn. Already dreaming about a spring riding excursion...some kind of knolly-fest in fruita would be fun. Why just have 1 or 1 per year...Everyone in Fruita was so mellow and such fun people to ride with, i would go out of my way to hang out with a Knolly crew anytime.
    I support EMBA

  59. #59
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    1,099
    I have direct experience with an 09 Endorphin (M,DUC 32/foxrp23) and an 09 Delirium(XS, Float36rc2, Fox dhx air). I have ridden these bikes on identical trails for the duration of the summer. First off, they both flat out rip. As it should be, the endo was set up a little lighter for trail riding and the delirium heavier for AM/ dh park riding. When it came to trail riding the endorphin came across as an efficient but capable platform to ride technical (SMBA,NY) trails with an eye for almost whatever line I wanted. I spent most of the summer running 1x9 @ 36x11-34. The delirium (my gf's, hence the xs) was a bike that surprised me at efficiency, even with dual ply dh tires. It offered a greater sense of confidence when the trails points down than the endorphin, although I dont think it was much faster on the trails. I've been curious about the chilcotin but dont think it would make me faster on trails than the endorphin allows me to be.

    I am trying a marz 55cr on the endo this year, as to get a front end like the delirium has.

  60. #60
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Today was a first in a long time. There was a time that I could beat my step-son up the mountain, but those days I thought have passed. Now we weren't exactly racing - just a 1hr plus ride with the dogs. However, it was the first time riding with him, while I was on the Endorphin.

    Usually around the 1/3 way point, I say go ahead and I will see you at the top. However that didn't happen today, because he wasn't on me like normal, and this put a little fire in me, and scaled two very steep climbs that I normally walk. Note I am still using a 1x10 on the Endorphin.

    I know I have been skeptical of the bike, but I am either coming terms with it, finally dialing it, or both but whatever it is I have been having a blast with the Endorphin lately. I hit small gap jump the other night. On one of my recent rides, my buddy mentioned to me that I was jumping every root, rock, bump on the trail with the Endorphin. He said it looked like I was having a blast. I told him that I was - it feels like I have cheater gear and it fun to attack everything on the trail.

    I have two specific trail areas that I still need to ride with the Endorphin, but the trails have been too wet lately - it will happen this week and then my Endorphin thoughts will be complete and no more diatribes from me.

  61. #61
    Pivoteer
    Reputation: tiSS'er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,436
    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Today was a first in a long time. There was a time that I could beat my step-son up the mountain, but those days I thought have passed. Now we weren't exactly racing - just a 1hr plus ride with the dogs. However, it was the first time riding with him, while I was on the Endorphin.

    Usually around the 1/3 way point, I say go ahead and I will see you at the top. However that didn't happen today, because he wasn't on me like normal, and this put a little fire in me, and scaled two very steep climbs that I normally walk. Note I am still using a 1x10 on the Endorphin.

    I know I have been skeptical of the bike, but I am either coming terms with it, finally dialing it, or both but whatever it is I have been having a blast with the Endorphin lately. I hit small gap jump the other night. On one of my recent rides, my buddy mentioned to me that I was jumping every root, rock, bump on the trail with the Endorphin. He said it looked like I was having a blast. I told him that I was - it feels like I have cheater gear and it fun to attack everything on the trail.

    I have two specific trail areas that I still need to ride with the Endorphin, but the trails have been too wet lately - it will happen this week and then my Endorphin thoughts will be complete and no more diatribes from me.
    Glad to see you two are starting to get along. I think you are driving home the intended purpose of the Endo, and I think I like it
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    262
    hey dude, glad you are liking it more. Have you put the ccdb on there or the monarch? I have been thinking about the RWC needle bearings to help with small bump compliance. any thoughts on that? I swapped out the fox 140 for a RS rev and the initial neighborhood test feels good. The RS has a longer steer tube which also allowed me to add a 10mm spacer under the stem which is also feeling good I won't be back on it for three weeks but I'm looking forward to it.

  63. #63
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    So I have been doing a lot more rides lately on the Endorphin with my buddies....I am starting to recognize the Endorphin's potential by riding with my buddies. I am riding both faster uphill and downhill - note this trail dependent. I have been making steep trails and on the way down, I am going quite fast as well. The Endorphin is a bit harsher - but I can maintain more speed through extra pedal strokes here and there that have more ummmphh to them. I didn't recognize this when I was riding by myself and I don't have a computer.

    The Endorphin's suspension is snappy and though harsher, allows me to accelerate on the way down - out of turns, flattish sections. The snappy behavior also allows me to accelerate for obstacles and either the suspension or the lightness allows me to jump features a bit farther. I able to hit bumps and go for transitions on the downsides that farther away allowing me to maintain my momentum and faster speeds. The Endorphin skips down the trail, where the Delirium is more planted and absorbs the features. I am adjusting to this aspect. I feel the geometry allows me to relax on the downhills. Now if the trail gets too rough, I will eventually be bounced around too much and slowed down relative to the Delirium. On a few downhill trails, I am transitioning side to side avoiding ruts, rocks etc, as oppose to blindly hitting them straight on.

    I have been riding the Endorphin consecutively for the last month. Yesterday, I did a four non-stop ride - who knows how far it was. I followed with a 2.5 hr fast pace ride today. My friends hop on the bike and say it doesn't feel like a bike that I would set-up and ride, but they also say that it is not slowing me down at all. They are not thrilled that I have a lighter, faster bike.

    I did install Ryan's CCDB and its feel much plusher. However, I don't think this is the correct direction to go down. The Endorphin with the CCDB (ignoring the obvious differences) pedals well and is more aggressive in its handling, but it much more like my Delirium. Hence if I am going to sacrifice pedaling then, I am riding the Delirium.

  64. #64
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Last of the Endorphin thoughts for awhile...

    I finally got to ride our primary trails. These trails are a mix of everything ( and they are fun!) and though we have a our staple trails, we tend to change things up a lot. It has been raining a lot lately and the trails were saturated a few days ago. However, the trails were drying out so Dominator and I headed out to ride them today.

    Today was confirmation of many of my thoughts. Uphills on the Endorphin were easier. Though Dominator on his Delirium was right on my heels. Depending on the downhill and its roughness determined whether I lost ground, gained ground, or just hung in there with respect to Dom's speed.

    On one of our favorite downhill trails at the end of the ride, I was leading it out. I hit two of the doubles, got my whip on one of them and sent it - no issues. I knew Dom was on me so I had to push it. I was comfortable but I was getting bounced a bit. As I followed Dom on a few trails, I could see that he was gliding over roots on the Delirium. In order to keep up with Dom, I had to ride loose. One of my issues was the skinny tire on the back, which I am going to change out.

    I was able to hit the rock gardens and keep my momentum which was good to know.

    Our jump trail was recently destroyed. However, with the rain the grommets are re-building it. We worked on fixing some of the jumps up a bit. One of the jumps is a solid 20 footer. I wasn't feeling it with the Endorphin. Dom was nailing it with the Delirium. Then we switched bikes, and Dom on his first run with no ride time on the Endorphin - cleans the 20 footer. When he lands, he says "Its a Knolly"....and I am going to leave the thoughts on that note - "its a Knolly"

  65. #65
    mtbr member
    Reputation: G-AIR's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,503
    Dude!,
    Sounds like you have a great bike quiver between the Endo, D, and Podium.

    It sounds like the Endo should be your lighter weight trail ripper. Comparing it to the Delerium is a tall measure. I assume you would usually take out your D on a day like today but you wanted to see how it compared on these trails.

    Are you sure you want to change that tire back to a bigger, heavier tire? It might lose some of its climbing prowess. It seems like you could build the bike a bit lighter and have a greater gap between the two bikes. Do you have any thoughts about this?

    Anyways, thanks for all the feedback. I'm looking forward to trying an Endo out in the near future. With all the different terrain, riding styles, and wants/needs, it is hard to figure out what bike works best for any certain individual. I think the only way to find out is to ride one for yourself.

    Thanks for the stoke.
    TG

    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Last of the Endorphin thoughts for awhile...

    I finally got to ride our primary trails. These trails are a mix of everything ( and they are fun!) and though we have a our staple trails, we tend to change things up a lot. It has been raining a lot lately and the trails were saturated a few days ago. However, the trails were drying out so Dominator and I headed out to ride them today.

    Today was confirmation of many of my thoughts. Uphills on the Endorphin were easier. Though Dominator on his Delirium was right on my heels. Depending on the downhill and its roughness determined whether I lost ground, gained ground, or just hung in there with respect to Dom's speed.

    On one of our favorite downhill trails at the end of the ride, I was leading it out. I hit two of the doubles, got my whip on one of them and sent it - no issues. I knew Dom was on me so I had to push it. I was comfortable but I was getting bounced a bit. As I followed Dom on a few trails, I could see that he was gliding over roots on the Delirium. In order to keep up with Dom, I had to ride loose. One of my issues was the skinny tire on the back, which I am going to change out.

    I was able to hit the rock gardens and keep my momentum which was good to know.

    Our jump trail was recently destroyed. However, with the rain the grommets are re-building it. We worked on fixing some of the jumps up a bit. One of the jumps is a solid 20 footer. I wasn't feeling it with the Endorphin. Dom was nailing it with the Delirium. Then we switched bikes, and Dom on his first run with no ride time on the Endorphin - cleans the 20 footer. When he lands, he says "Its a Knolly"....and I am going to leave the thoughts on that note - "its a Knolly"

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    Dude!,
    Sounds like you have a great bike quiver between the Endo, D, and Podium.

    It sounds like the Endo should be your lighter weight trail ripper. Comparing it to the Delerium is a tall measure. I assume you would usually take out your D on a day like today but you wanted to see how it compared on these trails.

    Are you sure you want to change that tire back to a bigger, heavier tire? It might lose some of its climbing prowess. It seems like you could build the bike a bit lighter and have a greater gap between the two bikes. Do you have any thoughts about this?

    Anyways, thanks for all the feedback. I'm looking forward to trying an Endo out in the near future. With all the different terrain, riding styles, and wants/needs, it is hard to figure out what bike works best for any certain individual. I think the only way to find out is to ride one for yourself.

    Thanks for the stoke.
    TG
    Thanks TG! I appreciate your interest and feedback.

    You are correct, I shouldn't compare the Endorphin to the Delirium. I comparing it to the Delirium since most folks on this forum have ridden or own a Delirium. Considering that it did well comparatively on a more all mountain trail - it speaks volumes for both bikes.

    I am very confident with the Endorphin on these trails and it handled them well. If your buddy isn't charging on a Delirium - you can have a lot of fun on the Endorphin. Dom stated that I am underestimating how well I rode the Endorphin yesterday. I have ridden the Endorphin as my primary bike for the last month or so. Even though I was fine riding, it was the first set of trails and situation that I wanted my Delirium, particularly with the 20 footer. I have hit this 20 footer multiple times in the past and with my Blur TRC. However, 20 footer was completely rebuilt and a bit different, it was also wet out so I just didn't have my confidence. If I was on my Delirium, I would have hit it. I did hit the other bigger jumps with the Endorphin, which we hit all of the time.

    Tire - I have 2.25 Rocket Ron on the back. This tire works well for the local sandy trails by my house. The tire is really a racing tire, which I think works well in most conditions. However, in the wet forest with leaves, mud, roots, etc, it lacked traction. I spun out a bunch and lost traction in some corners. So even though it is lighter and I was climbing strong, I lost traction on wet roots on key parts of the climb. I rather sacrifice a little bit of weight for traction to clean the climbs. It is a buzz kill to make 90% of the climb and spin out on one steep root section. I have a Hans Dampf that I am going to try. I just want to see which one works better. At this point, I am unsure on which one I will end up keeping on the Endorphin.

    TG - if you are ever up in Santa Cruz, you are welcome to demo my Endorphin.

  67. #67
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Herzalot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    309

    Endorphin Rush

    Wow - reading this thread made me a bit confused. I just built up my 2013 Endorphin. I am coming off a 6-year love affair with my Yeti 575. I have four rides on my local trails under my belt and I have described the Endo as being similar to my 575, but better. More plush down, snappier side-to-side, more planted in corners and slightly better climbing. I am running the CTD shock and a 2012 Marz 55 air fork. The geometry is perfect for AM riding in my opinion. The slack head angle doesn't really feel all that slack - it's easy to control when climbing, and is still super quick in turns and downhill.

    Dude writes about the Endo feeling harsh - I certainly do not feel that. It soaks up small trail chatter very well, and handles foot-deep holes at speed equally well. I know he is comparing to the Delirium, and he does 20 foot jumps - so maybe my needs and his are very different. The Endo is perfect for where I ride, how I ride and my size. I do have a DH bike, so I know what plush feels like. BTW, my XL Endo built up to 29.75 lbs.

    I have had two thorough rides on a 2012 Chili, and while I loved the bike, I felt it was overkill for my needs. When I tried the Endo - it felt almost the same, only faster.

    Endorphin thoughts-knolly2.jpg


  68. #68
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by Herzalot View Post
    Wow - reading this thread made me a bit confused. I just built up my 2013 Endorphin. I am coming off a 6-year love affair with my Yeti 575. I have four rides on my local trails under my belt and I have described the Endo as being similar to my 575, but better. More plush down, snappier side-to-side, more planted in corners and slightly better climbing. I am running the CTD shock and a 2012 Marz 55 air fork. The geometry is perfect for AM riding in my opinion. The slack head angle doesn't really feel all that slack - it's easy to control when climbing, and is still super quick in turns and downhill.

    Dude writes about the Endo feeling harsh - I certainly do not feel that. It soaks up small trail chatter very well, and handles foot-deep holes at speed equally well. I know he is comparing to the Delirium, and he does 20 foot jumps - so maybe my needs and his are very different. The Endo is perfect for where I ride, how I ride and my size. I do have a DH bike, so I know what plush feels like. BTW, my XL Endo built up to 29.75 lbs.

    I have had two thorough rides on a 2012 Chili, and while I loved the bike, I felt it was overkill for my needs. When I tried the Endo - it felt almost the same, only faster.

    I am glad to hear it is working well for you. I am not trying to argue with you, I trust your opinion and it is good to have another opinion I am probably in the wrong - wouldn't be the first time. However, your view seems to differ than the majority. Most folks that have ridden both the Chilcotin and the Endorphin notice a significant difference between the bikes - see Pfarrell's comments. It is good to see more folks riding the Endorphin. This way there is a better consensus. I just found the Endorphin to ride more like a trail bike, than an AM bike and its travel/geometry suggests. This being said, I am still ripping trails and having a lot of fun with the Endorphin.

  69. #69
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    262
    yeah, its a great great trail bike. the comments i have made where made to let people know there is a difference between the chilly and endo. i just feel that too many people look at the new Endo as "chilly lite" and that is not the case. Since alot of people buy Knolly's without ever getting to demo one, I want people to be as informed as possible so they are not suprised by what they are getting. The new Endo is a dedicated trail bike and is drastically different from the chilcotin if both bikes are set up as intended. If anyone out there is on the old Endo and is trying to decide between the chilly and Endo, they need to know the differences. The old Endo is without a doubt closer to the chilly than the new Endo so if they like what they are on now and are thinking they are gonna get the same bike only lighter and newer, that's not the case. If someone where wishing there old endo was more like a delirium then they should get a chilly but if someone was thinking there old Endo was a bit too much and wanted a more trail oriented bike, than they should get the new Endo.
    Two years ago, when I said I was getting the new Chilcotin and the new Endo, there was alot of talk of the two bikes being to much of an overlap and I said all along that they where going to be different enough. Well, now that I have both, there is way more overlap with the Chilly and the Delirium then with the Endo and Chilly.
    I have never not liked the new Endo, I love it for what it is, a trail bike. However, since i have spent time on both bikes, i want to give as much info as i can so others get the bike that works for them and have been trying to make it as clear as possible that the Endo is not 'Chilly Lite".
    BTW, my medium Endo has gained 1 pound 3 ounces and is now up to 25 pounds and 3 ounces but now it has "more real" tires. My Chilly is sitting right at 30 lbs.

  70. #70
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Herzalot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    309
    @pfarrell - What fork and wheelset do you have on your Endo that keeps the weight so low? The frame weighs 6.5 lbs minimum with shock and axle - and nothing else (no clips, headset, seatpost collar). My XL frame + Fox CTD weighed in at 6lbs 14 oz, stripped of ISCG mount. It's hard to build up a serviceable trailbike to 25lbs with a starting frame weight of 6.5 - much less to 24. 1x11? Carbon crankset?

    While you might feel that the Chili and Endo are far different beasts, I can tell you that the 2013 Endo is more "all mountain" than my 2009 Yeti 575 with the exact same (stout) build - and the 575 was no slouch on the technical, steep and fast side of the mountain.

    My experience riding both the 2013 Endo as spec'd by Knolly and the 2012 Chili was that the Chili was a more stout and muted ride - but both handled the same trails very similarly. The Endo was snappier in the turns and accelerated better - both excelled on small drops and chunky rock gardens at speed. I didn't take any drops over 3-feet or any gap jumps on either bike - but I know which would win that battle. I think it's cool that Knolly makes both of these. I was tempted to get the Chili because I like the he-man burliness of it, but I took a good look at where and how I really ride, and I am glad I did. The Endo is all the trailbike I need.

  71. #71
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    262
    My medium raw was 6 lbs and 8 ounces out of the box. it is equipped with a Rock shox rev 150, enve xc wheels on ck hubs, rf next cranks set up 1x10 with an 11-36 xx cassette, magura mt8 brakes, enve bars, thomson post with a selle italia slr seat. it is my xc bike.

    no offense but but comparing the new Endo to a 575, of course the Endo is gonna feel incredibly better....it's a Knolly and welcome to the club! However I was more focused on informing those that have ridden the previous Endo and wanted to let people know that this more of a trail bike. alot of things are better, it climbs better, accelerates quicker, lighter, much snappier and lively and it probably descends on par with the old Endo but sorry to use the term but the new one is a bit "harsher" than the old endo or chilly..... On the other hand, maybe my Fox CTD is a total POS and if i swap it out, it will negate what i am feeling..... but i just think that snappy and lively have to go hand in hand with harsh in some regards. In my mind, plush and snappy cannot co-exist and the old Endo and the chilly are deffinately are on the plush side. I'm sure the new Endo is more plush than your 575 but i was only comparing it to other Knolly bikes. Hope this makes sense.

  72. #72
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rscecil007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,516
    Man I would really love to take one of these on a few of my local trails that my Chili is bit much for.

    My Chili will be right around 33 or 33.5 lbs once I get my KS Lev seatpost. I wonder what an Endo would weight they way I'd build it up...guessing 28 or so.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  73. #73
    Knomer
    Reputation: Dusty Bottoms's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,373
    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Man I would really love to take one of these on a few of my local trails that my Chili is bit much for.
    You have my phone number! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  74. #74
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rscecil007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,516
    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    You have my phone number! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    LOL. Instead of it being under your name, I've saved it in my phone as CALLING THIS NUMBER WILL COST YOU MONEY.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  75. #75
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    My medium raw was 6 lbs and 8 ounces out of the box. it is equipped with a Rock shox rev 150, enve xc wheels on ck hubs, rf next cranks set up 1x10 with an 11-36 xx cassette, magura mt8 brakes, enve bars, thomson post with a selle italia slr seat. it is my xc bike.
    .
    How do like the Rockshox Revelation? I am considering one for the Endorphin. It would drop >1 lb and probably be a better matched fork for the Endorphin.

  76. #76
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Man I would really love to take one of these on a few of my local trails that my Chili is bit much for.

    My Chili will be right around 33 or 33.5 lbs once I get my KS Lev seatpost. I wonder what an Endo would weight they way I'd build it up...guessing 28 or so.
    I am at 29 lbs with relatively robust parts and a seat dropper. I am looking to start dropping weight on it. I think I can get it close to 27lbs without breaking the bank or going extreme weight weenie.

    Ryan - you should make a trip down this winter. The trails are uber tacky at the moment. You can even bring your Podium!

  77. #77
    mtbr member
    Reputation: rscecil007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,516
    What's your build looking like right now Dude? You still have Saint cranks on that thing?

    I'm not really familiar with all the 150mm travel forks. Is Fox the only one doing anything bigger than a 32mm stanchion? Aside from stepping up to a full 36mm stanchion fork of course.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  78. #78
    mtbr member
    Reputation: honns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    552
    xfusion is about to release the 34mm slant to compete with fox.

  79. #79
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Herzalot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    309
    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    My medium raw was 6 lbs and 8 ounces out of the box. it is equipped with a Rock shox rev 150, enve xc wheels on ck hubs, rf next cranks set up 1x10 with an 11-36 xx cassette, magura mt8 brakes, enve bars, thomson post with a selle italia slr seat. it is my xc bike.

    no offense but but comparing the new Endo to a 575, of course the Endo is gonna feel incredibly better....it's a Knolly and welcome to the club! However I was more focused on informing those that have ridden the previous Endo and wanted to let people know that this more of a trail bike. alot of things are better, it climbs better, accelerates quicker, lighter, much snappier and lively and it probably descends on par with the old Endo but sorry to use the term but the new one is a bit "harsher" than the old endo or chilly..... On the other hand, maybe my Fox CTD is a total POS and if i swap it out, it will negate what i am feeling..... but i just think that snappy and lively have to go hand in hand with harsh in some regards. In my mind, plush and snappy cannot co-exist and the old Endo and the chilly are deffinately are on the plush side. I'm sure the new Endo is more plush than your 575 but i was only comparing it to other Knolly bikes. Hope this makes sense.
    Your build explains the 25lb weight. Thanks for elaborating.

    I loved my 575. It allowed me to do some amazing things and had impeccable handling characteristics. Like Knolly, there is a Yeti "ride quality" that goes beyond numbers and linkages. That said, my Endorphin does seem to be better in each aspect of riding - not a lot, but enough to justify the change and put a great big smile on my face.

    Can a bike be plush and snappy? I think so. Plush happens when coasting, everything changes when you dig in with the pedals. I hear you on the CTD however. I am already feeling the same thing I felt on my last Fox fork. If you set the shock at the recommended 30% sag, it blows through the rest of its travel pretty quickly. If you firm it up a touch, you lose that suppleness. I think I have found the right air setting, but it's a very narrow window of about 2 psi - hard to dial in with most shock pumps.

    Maybe X-Fusion will do their midvalve technology on their shocks that they are building into their new Slant forks. I don't feel like going to a CCDBa. $$$$ and lbs.

  80. #80
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    802
    I have both bikes (Chili and Endo), but I've only had 4 rides on the endo. I've owned the Chili since last April. I have a Lyric RC2 DH coil on the Chili and a Marzocchi 44 on the Endo. I don't see the Endo as being as vastly different as pfarrell does. The Endo has a snappier feel and is easier to toss aroud while catching air and correcting downhill technical lines. The Chili has a more stable feel when tracking through downhill chunk.

    I think the Chili weighs about 33.5lbs and the Endo weighed 28.5lbs without shifters, shifter cables and housings, and pedals, so it probably weighs about 30.5lbs.

    I need to get some more ride time on the Endo in order to properly assess the differences between the two, so I'll post again in a couple of weeks. I will say that I am most pleased with both bikes and they are really enjoyable to ride. My previous bikes were a Turner 5 Spot and two different Santa Cruz Hecklers.

  81. #81
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    I think the difference in ride behavior between us is in the front fork. As I mentioned above, I found that the Endorphin rode a lot better (ie more AM oriented, but still fast) when I made my front fork (Fox Float) more supple, which made the rear ride more supple. This really made a world of difference in the Endorphin behavior for me. Both Herzalot and rippling over canyons are riding Marz forks which are plusher forks, particularly in the initially part of the travel, than Revelation and Fox Float, which could be key.

    I also agree with Herzalot that air pressure is key in dialing in the Endorphin. I found the Endorphin sensitive to a few psi - this consistent with the front fork suppleness hypothesis. With the Monarch, I was able to add some more spacers to reduce the bottom out so that I can run the correct pressure. Pfarrell - you may want to add donut to the Fox CTD or get a bigger one. I think this will reduce the bottom out without the need to spend money on a new shock.

    Again like Herzalot, the Endorphin ride behavior varies between sitting and standing. Sitting - it is less active and pedals better than standing. You can easily see this with the shock and how the sag is reduced. This increases the mechanical leverage making short work of bumps, etc. So yes, plush and snappy.

    Right now there are 2 views of the bike - Chilly-Lite (Herzalot/rippling over canyons) and more trail bike oriented (Dude!/Pfarrell). This is interesting. Depending on how the Endorphin rides will determine if others purchase the Endorphin. I have had a lot of PM messages about the Endorphin. Some want it trail-bike oriented (more separation between it and the Chilly), where others want it Chilly-Lite ( don't want 2 bikes, but an aggressive trail/AM bike). I personally wanted it Chilly-Lite, but like it as a trail-oriented bike. I am at fault for comparing it too much to the Delirium.

    When I purchased the Endorphin, I was hoping that is was more like the Chilcotin (ie Chilly-lite) just in a faster/lighter form to take over more of the Delirium AM trails. I just found the Endorphin to be a bit more trail oriented - but it still rips the trail. This is not a negative, but more of a definition, as Pfarrell states, to help others understand the bike.

    Part of this depends on the riding group - I have some riding friends where the Endorphin is a perfect fit and considered aggressive. However, I mostly ride with Dominator and we hit ever feature/obstacle, push each other, and go as fast as possible downhill. On these rides I want to be on my Delirium.

    From riding the Endorphin and the Delirium, I am going to make the Endorphin a true trail bike and the lighten the Delirium for most of my rides.
    Last edited by Dude!; 01-05-2013 at 10:06 AM.

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Herzalot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    309
    Great summary, Dude. Today, I discovered the "harsher" side of the CTD shock. I only have about a 2-3 psi window between too soft and too firm. I am having a suspension guru set up the shock right for me (he is a mechanic to a very talented pro, and a very good rider in his own right). He's charging me $40-60! I will report back, of course.

  83. #83
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Dude!'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    1,954
    Quote Originally Posted by Herzalot View Post
    Great summary, Dude. Today, I discovered the "harsher" side of the CTD shock. I only have about a 2-3 psi window between too soft and too firm. I am having a suspension guru set up the shock right for me (he is a mechanic to a very talented pro, and a very good rider in his own right). He's charging me $40-60! I will report back, of course.
    Thanks. These discussions are helpful. Interest piqued with respect to the mechanic's setup thoughts, please report back.

Members who have read this thread: 0

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •