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Thread: dw vs 4 bar

  1. #1
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    dw vs 4 bar

    ive always wondered how the dw based bikes ride in comparison to knollys 4 bar linkage. ive never rode a dw bike before and curious how knolly and ibis bikes compare ride wise. any body owned / own both, can offer an insight to how they fare againt each other.
    2013 Knolly Endorphin | 2013 Knolly Chilcotin | 2014 Knolly Podium.
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    The short answer: The knolly is the most consistent feeling bike in all conditions, any situation, any body position, the _dw link stuff trades that away in varying amounts for anti-squat. I have hundreds of hours on an HD and thousands of hours on Endo/Delirium.
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    Based on ~45-50hrs on a Pivot mach 5.7 vs 6yrs on a couple horst link bikes (including the endo in that category) I'd offer that if your riding involves pedaling thru level sections of roots, rocks, chunk and steep short tech climbs of same stuff (e.g. typical North East conditions) then the four bar would have an advantage.

    However if your riding was more typically less technical, extended climbs with faster descents including technical sections (e.g. Colorado, Pisgah) then the DW could be considered an advantage for the efficiency it offers.

    I was very very impressed with the Pivot mach5.7 and expected to be missing it dearly when I got home to my own bike but because my local riding is slower and much more technical that did not end up being the case.
    The pivot was ridden Vail, Buffalo Creek, Fruita and Moab so a fair bit of technical also, but much more elevation and typically smoother longer climbs)

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    DW fanboys to the rescue in 3...2...1...


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    LOL I shouldn't be like that. Mrwhlr and kark both have presented very good analyses!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kark View Post
    Based on ~45-50hrs on a Pivot mach 5.7 vs 6yrs on a couple horst link bikes (including the endo in that category) I'd offer that if your riding involves pedaling thru level sections of roots, rocks, chunk and steep short tech climbs of same stuff (e.g. typical North East conditions) then the four bar would have an advantage.

    However if your riding was more typically less technical, extended climbs with faster descents including technical sections (e.g. Colorado, Pisgah) then the DW could be considered an advantage for the efficiency it offers.

    I was very very impressed with the Pivot mach5.7 and expected to be missing it dearly when I got home to my own bike but because my local riding is slower and much more technical that did not end up being the case.
    The pivot was ridden Vail, Buffalo Creek, Fruita and Moab so a fair bit of technical also, but much more elevation and typically smoother longer climbs)

    I think you have hit it spot on that it really depends on where you are riding/the type of terrain you prefer to ride in.

    Once a bike is made that does EVERYTHING perfectly, all other bikes will be obsolete.

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    The idea of the post is to understand the ride differences, not to determine which is best. Heres a scenario to work with:

    Lets say that the climbs are long, fairly steep, fairly smooth and the decents fast twisty and not very rough...in other words, your using a 140mm 'Trail' bike for the cause...in this case, what would be the difference in ride characteristics...

    MrWhlr, can you expand on what you mean a little.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Once a bike is made that does EVERYTHING perfectly, all other bikes will be obsolete.
    Bingo....shock tune and selection makes a difference too ! Nothing but nothing beats the Knolly 4x4 suspension hitting square edge stuff at speed or climbing over it... not saying the DW isn't very capable but just a bit more harsh in some conditions from my experience !
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    The idea of the post is to understand the ride differences, not to determine which is best. Heres a scenario to work with:

    Lets say that the climbs are long, fairly steep, fairly smooth and the decents fast twisty and not very rough...in other words, your using a 140mm 'Trail' bike for the cause...in this case, what would be the difference in ride characteristics...

    MrWhlr, can you expand on what you mean a little.
    Not answering for mrwhlr, but I would say the DW would probably feel more effricient climbing, with less suspension movement or bob.
    On the downhill there's probably not too much difference.

    For a rougher more technical downhill, the bike set up, shock set up, and geometry are more important than the difference between horst or DW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kark View Post

    The pivot was ridden Vail, Buffalo Creek, Fruita and Moab so a fair bit of technical also, but much more elevation and typically smoother longer climbs
    i dont know any of these trails kark, im a brit. can you confirm what you mean....are you saying that the main difference (excluding shock set up) would be the knolly is better at climbing rough technical and the dw more efficient at the smooth?
    2013 Knolly Endorphin | 2013 Knolly Chilcotin | 2014 Knolly Podium.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    i dont know any of these trails kark, im a brit. can you confirm what you mean....are you saying that the main difference (excluding shock set up) would be in the climbing...i.e the knolly is better at climbing rough technical and the dw more efficient at the smooth?
    basically, yes. dw or any mini link bike in general, that is set up with anti squat will not offer as much traction on technical climbs as a horstlink/4x4 design will.

    now knolly has made the new endo more efficient than the older version according to people who have ridden v1 vs v2 but how that compares to dw link i personally can''t say having only had a v1 endo and now a chili and at one point some time on a dw spot.

    the antisquat on a dw link bike causes the suspension to stiffen under power by utilizing chain tension. under power climbing in rough terrain, it will compromise the traction. on smoother trails it will provide much better pedaling efficiency. downhill botn will be similar depending on shock tune/set-up unless pedaling hard where again the dw link will lose a bit because of said anti squat.

    so for me. smoother trails = dw link. tech trails= 4x4. but really, only your own azz can tell you what "you" prefer. for the cake you are looking at for a new knolly, i'd demo a few different designs and settle on what's best for your trails. e-speculation isn't all that definitive

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    MrWhlr, can you expand on what you mean a little.
    The Delirium is a better technical climber @ 35-36lbs (think steeeep, loose, rock crawling) and better pounding through rock gardens at high speed. It is better on the rear brake. It has 4xFour traction everywhere, all the time.

    The HD is less tiring to ride over spread out, pedaly, stuff. It is 5lb lighter than the Delirium. Its rearward axle movement is a double-edged sword, helps on the first big impact, but pedal through a bunch in succession, sometimes the wheel slams forward into stuff, upsetting things. I get more wheel spin creeping up steep stuff. I used CCDB coil on both frames. Both frames have excellent geometry.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    basically, yes. dw or any mini link bike in general, that is set up with anti squat will not offer as much traction on technical climbs as a horstlink/4x4 design will.

    now knolly has made the new endo more efficient than the older version according to people who have ridden v1 vs v2 but how that compares to dw link i personally can''t say having only had a v1 endo and now a chili and at one point some time on a dw spot.

    the antisquat on a dw link bike causes the suspension to stiffen under power by utilizing chain tension. under power climbing in rough terrain, it will compromise the traction. on smoother trails it will provide much better pedaling efficiency. downhill botn will be similar depending on shock tune/set-up unless pedaling hard where again the dw link will lose a bit because of said anti squat.

    so for me. smoother trails = dw link. tech trails= 4x4. but really, only your own azz can tell you what "you" prefer. for the cake you are looking at for a new knolly, i'd demo a few different designs and settle on what's best for your trails. e-speculation isn't all that definitive
    Nice one, that makes sense, cheers. Yeah not looking to get away from Knolly or anything, I LOVE my Chilcotin. Just curious
    2013 Knolly Endorphin | 2013 Knolly Chilcotin | 2014 Knolly Podium.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    The Delirium is a better technical climber @ 35-36lbs (think steeeep, loose, rock crawling) and better pounding through rock gardens at high speed. It is better on the rear brake. It has 4xFour traction everywhere, all the time.

    The HD is less tiring to ride over spread out, pedaly, stuff. It is 5lb lighter than the Delirium. Its rearward axle movement is a double-edged sword, helps on the first big impact, but pedal through a bunch in succession, sometimes the wheel slams forward into stuff, upsetting things. I get more wheel spin creeping up steep stuff. I used CCDB coil on both frames. Both frames have excellent geometry.
    Thanks!
    2013 Knolly Endorphin | 2013 Knolly Chilcotin | 2014 Knolly Podium.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    basically, yes. dw or any mini link bike in general, that is set up with anti squat will not offer as much traction on technical climbs as a horstlink/4x4 design will.

    now knolly has made the new endo more efficient than the older version according to people who have ridden v1 vs v2 but how that compares to dw link i personally can''t say having only had a v1 endo and now a chili and at one point some time on a dw spot.

    the antisquat on a dw link bike causes the suspension to stiffen under power by utilizing chain tension. under power climbing in rough terrain, it will compromise the traction. on smoother trails it will provide much better pedaling efficiency. downhill botn will be similar depending on shock tune/set-up unless pedaling hard where again the dw link will lose a bit because of said anti squat.

    so for me. smoother trails = dw link. tech trails= 4x4. but really, only your own azz can tell you what "you" prefer. for the cake you are looking at for a new knolly, i'd demo a few different designs and settle on what's best for your trails. e-speculation isn't all that definitive
    Good post. Pretty much sums up my feelings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    i dont know any of these trails kark, im a brit. can you confirm what you mean....are you saying that the main difference (excluding shock set up) would be the knolly is better at climbing rough technical and the dw more efficient at the smooth?
    yes, and Qbert2000 said it at least as well as I would have. ..if you get a chance to throw a leg over a Pivot i'd highly recommend it but I can't comment on British trails not having been there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    I think you have hit it spot on that it really depends on where you are riding/the type of terrain you prefer to ride in.

    Once a bike is made that does EVERYTHING perfectly, all other bikes will be obsolete.
    And then MTBR will be shut down...the horror...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    I think you have hit it spot on that it really depends on where you are riding/the type of terrain you prefer to ride in.

    Once a bike is made that does EVERYTHING perfectly, all other bikes will be obsolete.
    Take a DW link..make the strut from the chain to the seat stay adjustable. Strut adjusted longer for more anti squat. Adjust shorter for less..would approach a single pivot..maybe. One frame for all duty..I can see another sub forum..All Duty..
    lean forward

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    Take a DW link..make the strut from the chain to the seat stay adjustable. Strut adjusted longer for more anti squat. Adjust shorter for less..would approach a single pivot..maybe. One frame for all duty..I can see another sub forum..All Duty..
    What

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    What
    Think about it..one could change the anti squat by altering the lower short link angle of attack. All one needs is a adjustable seat to chain stay strut. Just do some mental kinematics..
    lean forward

  21. #21
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    ..or smoke what I've got..
    lean forward

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    ..or smoke what I've got..
    take it easy man. smoking and cycling isnt exactly an efficient combination.
    2013 Knolly Endorphin | 2013 Knolly Chilcotin | 2014 Knolly Podium.
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    Not answering for mrwhlr, but I would say the DW would probably feel more effricient climbing, with less suspension movement or bob.
    On the downhill there's probably not too much difference.

    For a rougher more technical downhill, the bike set up, shock set up, and geometry are more important than the difference between horst or DW.
    I agree with this.

    I have a Mach 5.7, chilcotin (replaced a 2008 endorphin) and a firebird.

    I find the more stable platform of the pivot better for me at climbing technical trails more slowly and methodically. I can't ride that slow on the chilcotin, I have to ride much faster. I can also ride the pivots faster, I can also pedal it slower. The chili suspension takes more of my pedaling energy then the pivots, the pivots go more forward ON the terrain, rather then IN it.

    On the dh, the chili is more active and tends to go in and out of the terrain more. The pivots again are more on the terrain and poppy


    All my bikes are awesome. Just different. I have the 5.7 xc, chili AM, firebird FR(170fork and dh tires)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Good post. Pretty much sums up my feelings.
    I've owned a pivot mach 5 and now the chilcotin. I would agree with this. Very well written. dw was good on the smooth but anything technical either up or down and i find the 4x4 wins in spades.

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    Good post. I'm looking for my next MTB with 4x4, VPP and DW Link in the running. Great to hear the comparision from folks with a lot of time in the saddle.

    I'm a coastal BC rider and I don't think I can remember what smooth MTB trails are like! So I think I am a good candidate for a Knolly.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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