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Thread: dw vs 4 bar

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    dw vs 4 bar

    ive always wondered how the dw based bikes ride in comparison to knollys 4 bar linkage. ive never rode a dw bike before and curious how knolly and ibis bikes compare ride wise. any body owned / own both, can offer an insight to how they fare againt each other.

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    The short answer: The knolly is the most consistent feeling bike in all conditions, any situation, any body position, the _dw link stuff trades that away in varying amounts for anti-squat. I have hundreds of hours on an HD and thousands of hours on Endo/Delirium.
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    Based on ~45-50hrs on a Pivot mach 5.7 vs 6yrs on a couple horst link bikes (including the endo in that category) I'd offer that if your riding involves pedaling thru level sections of roots, rocks, chunk and steep short tech climbs of same stuff (e.g. typical North East conditions) then the four bar would have an advantage.

    However if your riding was more typically less technical, extended climbs with faster descents including technical sections (e.g. Colorado, Pisgah) then the DW could be considered an advantage for the efficiency it offers.

    I was very very impressed with the Pivot mach5.7 and expected to be missing it dearly when I got home to my own bike but because my local riding is slower and much more technical that did not end up being the case.
    The pivot was ridden Vail, Buffalo Creek, Fruita and Moab so a fair bit of technical also, but much more elevation and typically smoother longer climbs)

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    DW fanboys to the rescue in 3...2...1...


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    LOL I shouldn't be like that. Mrwhlr and kark both have presented very good analyses!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kark View Post
    Based on ~45-50hrs on a Pivot mach 5.7 vs 6yrs on a couple horst link bikes (including the endo in that category) I'd offer that if your riding involves pedaling thru level sections of roots, rocks, chunk and steep short tech climbs of same stuff (e.g. typical North East conditions) then the four bar would have an advantage.

    However if your riding was more typically less technical, extended climbs with faster descents including technical sections (e.g. Colorado, Pisgah) then the DW could be considered an advantage for the efficiency it offers.

    I was very very impressed with the Pivot mach5.7 and expected to be missing it dearly when I got home to my own bike but because my local riding is slower and much more technical that did not end up being the case.
    The pivot was ridden Vail, Buffalo Creek, Fruita and Moab so a fair bit of technical also, but much more elevation and typically smoother longer climbs)

    I think you have hit it spot on that it really depends on where you are riding/the type of terrain you prefer to ride in.

    Once a bike is made that does EVERYTHING perfectly, all other bikes will be obsolete.

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    The idea of the post is to understand the ride differences, not to determine which is best. Heres a scenario to work with:

    Lets say that the climbs are long, fairly steep, fairly smooth and the decents fast twisty and not very rough...in other words, your using a 140mm 'Trail' bike for the cause...in this case, what would be the difference in ride characteristics...

    MrWhlr, can you expand on what you mean a little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    Once a bike is made that does EVERYTHING perfectly, all other bikes will be obsolete.
    Bingo....shock tune and selection makes a difference too ! Nothing but nothing beats the Knolly 4x4 suspension hitting square edge stuff at speed or climbing over it... not saying the DW isn't very capable but just a bit more harsh in some conditions from my experience !
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    The idea of the post is to understand the ride differences, not to determine which is best. Heres a scenario to work with:

    Lets say that the climbs are long, fairly steep, fairly smooth and the decents fast twisty and not very rough...in other words, your using a 140mm 'Trail' bike for the cause...in this case, what would be the difference in ride characteristics...

    MrWhlr, can you expand on what you mean a little.
    Not answering for mrwhlr, but I would say the DW would probably feel more effricient climbing, with less suspension movement or bob.
    On the downhill there's probably not too much difference.

    For a rougher more technical downhill, the bike set up, shock set up, and geometry are more important than the difference between horst or DW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kark View Post

    The pivot was ridden Vail, Buffalo Creek, Fruita and Moab so a fair bit of technical also, but much more elevation and typically smoother longer climbs
    i dont know any of these trails kark, im a brit. can you confirm what you mean....are you saying that the main difference (excluding shock set up) would be the knolly is better at climbing rough technical and the dw more efficient at the smooth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    i dont know any of these trails kark, im a brit. can you confirm what you mean....are you saying that the main difference (excluding shock set up) would be in the climbing...i.e the knolly is better at climbing rough technical and the dw more efficient at the smooth?
    basically, yes. dw or any mini link bike in general, that is set up with anti squat will not offer as much traction on technical climbs as a horstlink/4x4 design will.

    now knolly has made the new endo more efficient than the older version according to people who have ridden v1 vs v2 but how that compares to dw link i personally can''t say having only had a v1 endo and now a chili and at one point some time on a dw spot.

    the antisquat on a dw link bike causes the suspension to stiffen under power by utilizing chain tension. under power climbing in rough terrain, it will compromise the traction. on smoother trails it will provide much better pedaling efficiency. downhill botn will be similar depending on shock tune/set-up unless pedaling hard where again the dw link will lose a bit because of said anti squat.

    so for me. smoother trails = dw link. tech trails= 4x4. but really, only your own azz can tell you what "you" prefer. for the cake you are looking at for a new knolly, i'd demo a few different designs and settle on what's best for your trails. e-speculation isn't all that definitive

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    MrWhlr, can you expand on what you mean a little.
    The Delirium is a better technical climber @ 35-36lbs (think steeeep, loose, rock crawling) and better pounding through rock gardens at high speed. It is better on the rear brake. It has 4xFour traction everywhere, all the time.

    The HD is less tiring to ride over spread out, pedaly, stuff. It is 5lb lighter than the Delirium. Its rearward axle movement is a double-edged sword, helps on the first big impact, but pedal through a bunch in succession, sometimes the wheel slams forward into stuff, upsetting things. I get more wheel spin creeping up steep stuff. I used CCDB coil on both frames. Both frames have excellent geometry.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    basically, yes. dw or any mini link bike in general, that is set up with anti squat will not offer as much traction on technical climbs as a horstlink/4x4 design will.

    now knolly has made the new endo more efficient than the older version according to people who have ridden v1 vs v2 but how that compares to dw link i personally can''t say having only had a v1 endo and now a chili and at one point some time on a dw spot.

    the antisquat on a dw link bike causes the suspension to stiffen under power by utilizing chain tension. under power climbing in rough terrain, it will compromise the traction. on smoother trails it will provide much better pedaling efficiency. downhill botn will be similar depending on shock tune/set-up unless pedaling hard where again the dw link will lose a bit because of said anti squat.

    so for me. smoother trails = dw link. tech trails= 4x4. but really, only your own azz can tell you what "you" prefer. for the cake you are looking at for a new knolly, i'd demo a few different designs and settle on what's best for your trails. e-speculation isn't all that definitive
    Nice one, that makes sense, cheers. Yeah not looking to get away from Knolly or anything, I LOVE my Chilcotin. Just curious

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    The Delirium is a better technical climber @ 35-36lbs (think steeeep, loose, rock crawling) and better pounding through rock gardens at high speed. It is better on the rear brake. It has 4xFour traction everywhere, all the time.

    The HD is less tiring to ride over spread out, pedaly, stuff. It is 5lb lighter than the Delirium. Its rearward axle movement is a double-edged sword, helps on the first big impact, but pedal through a bunch in succession, sometimes the wheel slams forward into stuff, upsetting things. I get more wheel spin creeping up steep stuff. I used CCDB coil on both frames. Both frames have excellent geometry.
    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    basically, yes. dw or any mini link bike in general, that is set up with anti squat will not offer as much traction on technical climbs as a horstlink/4x4 design will.

    now knolly has made the new endo more efficient than the older version according to people who have ridden v1 vs v2 but how that compares to dw link i personally can''t say having only had a v1 endo and now a chili and at one point some time on a dw spot.

    the antisquat on a dw link bike causes the suspension to stiffen under power by utilizing chain tension. under power climbing in rough terrain, it will compromise the traction. on smoother trails it will provide much better pedaling efficiency. downhill botn will be similar depending on shock tune/set-up unless pedaling hard where again the dw link will lose a bit because of said anti squat.

    so for me. smoother trails = dw link. tech trails= 4x4. but really, only your own azz can tell you what "you" prefer. for the cake you are looking at for a new knolly, i'd demo a few different designs and settle on what's best for your trails. e-speculation isn't all that definitive
    Good post. Pretty much sums up my feelings.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    i dont know any of these trails kark, im a brit. can you confirm what you mean....are you saying that the main difference (excluding shock set up) would be the knolly is better at climbing rough technical and the dw more efficient at the smooth?
    yes, and Qbert2000 said it at least as well as I would have. ..if you get a chance to throw a leg over a Pivot i'd highly recommend it but I can't comment on British trails not having been there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    I think you have hit it spot on that it really depends on where you are riding/the type of terrain you prefer to ride in.

    Once a bike is made that does EVERYTHING perfectly, all other bikes will be obsolete.
    And then MTBR will be shut down...the horror...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    I think you have hit it spot on that it really depends on where you are riding/the type of terrain you prefer to ride in.

    Once a bike is made that does EVERYTHING perfectly, all other bikes will be obsolete.
    Take a DW link..make the strut from the chain to the seat stay adjustable. Strut adjusted longer for more anti squat. Adjust shorter for less..would approach a single pivot..maybe. One frame for all duty..I can see another sub forum..All Duty..
    lean forward

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    Take a DW link..make the strut from the chain to the seat stay adjustable. Strut adjusted longer for more anti squat. Adjust shorter for less..would approach a single pivot..maybe. One frame for all duty..I can see another sub forum..All Duty..
    What

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    What
    Think about it..one could change the anti squat by altering the lower short link angle of attack. All one needs is a adjustable seat to chain stay strut. Just do some mental kinematics..
    lean forward

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    ..or smoke what I've got..
    lean forward

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1niceride View Post
    ..or smoke what I've got..
    take it easy man. smoking and cycling isnt exactly an efficient combination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    Not answering for mrwhlr, but I would say the DW would probably feel more effricient climbing, with less suspension movement or bob.
    On the downhill there's probably not too much difference.

    For a rougher more technical downhill, the bike set up, shock set up, and geometry are more important than the difference between horst or DW.
    I agree with this.

    I have a Mach 5.7, chilcotin (replaced a 2008 endorphin) and a firebird.

    I find the more stable platform of the pivot better for me at climbing technical trails more slowly and methodically. I can't ride that slow on the chilcotin, I have to ride much faster. I can also ride the pivots faster, I can also pedal it slower. The chili suspension takes more of my pedaling energy then the pivots, the pivots go more forward ON the terrain, rather then IN it.

    On the dh, the chili is more active and tends to go in and out of the terrain more. The pivots again are more on the terrain and poppy


    All my bikes are awesome. Just different. I have the 5.7 xc, chili AM, firebird FR(170fork and dh tires)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vespasianus View Post
    Good post. Pretty much sums up my feelings.
    I've owned a pivot mach 5 and now the chilcotin. I would agree with this. Very well written. dw was good on the smooth but anything technical either up or down and i find the 4x4 wins in spades.

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    Good post. I'm looking for my next MTB with 4x4, VPP and DW Link in the running. Great to hear the comparision from folks with a lot of time in the saddle.

    I'm a coastal BC rider and I don't think I can remember what smooth MTB trails are like! So I think I am a good candidate for a Knolly.
    Safe riding,

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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    dw was good on the smooth but anything technical either up or down and i find the 4x4 wins in spades.
    hi, im not sure what you mean by technical (berms? jumps? drops? roots? rocks? chunder? mud? loose over hardpack? off-camber? ...) on the way down? too many things in the mix for me there.

    ...

    I have a mix of rough/chunky and smooth climbing here, its the case that the rough is on the way to the DH/bike park trails and the smooth on the way to the fast flowing smoother stuff.

    Speculatively speaking, all this makes a case for putting a 170mm fork on my Chili (with CCDB Coil) and later, sometime, going after a 140mm trail bike from IBIS. I would love a 650b Endo but what people are saying here makes me think that the Mojo HDR 650b / 140 forks would be the best pairing with my Knolly (for the type of trails i ride).

    Id love to test ride the new Endo (if Knolly ever releases it), and the HDR, back to back on my home trails....and test them in berms, jumps, drops....and find out which is most fun to play around on.

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    I ride very rocky pretty rooty slow rolling steep but short ups and downs on the East coast. I've owned Horst 5 Spots, DW 5 Spots, Turner RFX, Chilcotin, Mach 5.7 and Mojo HD. Chilcotin is the most active and capable bike up and down. It really climbs the rocky techy stuff amazingly well and is point and shoot down. The HD is no slouch and on the rare pedally sections is a rocket ship. The Pivot rides similarly to the DW 5 Spot. I have it set up pretty plush. Mojo HD needs a well tuned rear shock (nothing Fox) to come alive. I have a custom tuned Roco Air on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    hi, im not sure what you mean by technical (berms? jumps? drops? roots? rocks? chunder? mud? loose over hardpack? off-camber? ...) on the way down? too many things in the mix for me there.

    ...

    I have a mix of rough/chunky and smooth climbing here, its the case that the rough is on the way to the DH/bike park trails and the smooth on the way to the fast flowing smoother stuff.

    Speculatively speaking, all this makes a case for putting a 170mm fork on my Chili (with CCDB Coil) and later, sometime, going after a 140mm trail bike from IBIS. I would love a 650b Endo but what people are saying here makes me think that the Mojo HDR 650b / 140 forks would be the best pairing with my Knolly (for the type of trails i ride).

    Id love to test ride the new Endo (if Knolly ever releases it), and the HDR, back to back on my home trails....and test them in berms, jumps, drops....and find out which is most fun to play around on.
    i personally think the dw link bikes shine in areas with lots of fireroad climbs like in california and colorado. when pointed down they ride great and while spinning up those long, somewhat smooth climbs, the anti squat is appreciated by the riders putting the power down. turner bikes is based in california along with ibis. so the designers of those bikes are most likely biased by their local trails and conditions.

    like wilks i ride on the east coast which is rocks, roots and steep up and down. not long, but never smooth spinning type climbs and for me the 4x4 beats dw link for my trails. if i lived in so cal, maybe i'd look hard at the mojo because of its ability to put down power while climbing smoother trails.

    knolly designs their bikes based on their locale i think. if your trails are similar to bc, not necessarily in elevation, but terrain conditions then 4x4 may be the way to go for you. still the best way is to demo both designs and not just one dw link as most who have ridden turner and pivot say they really don't ride that similarly

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    i personally think the dw link bikes shine in areas with lots of fireroad climbs like in california and colorado. when pointed down they ride great and while spinning up those long, somewhat smooth climbs, the anti squat is appreciated by the riders putting the power down. turner bikes is based in california along with ibis. so the designers of those bikes are most likely biased by their local trails and conditions.

    like wilks i ride on the east coast which is rocks, roots and steep up and down. not long, but never smooth spinning type climbs and for me the 4x4 beats dw link for my trails. if i lived in so cal, maybe i'd look hard at the mojo because of its ability to put down power while climbing smoother trails.

    knolly designs their bikes based on their locale i think. if your trails are similar to bc, not necessarily in elevation, but terrain conditions then 4x4 may be the way to go for you. still the best way is to demo both designs and not just one dw link as most who have ridden turner and pivot say they really don't ride that similarly
    good stuff

    yeah i need to demo bikes with a 140mm front, 125-140 rear, for the smoother stuff (maybe a turner 5-spot or the original mojo 140 might be good benchmarks). the chili takes care of climbing 'rock walls' and DH its a mental bike, i love it to bits, so much fun to be had on it round here, so im in no hurry, this thread is all 'for the future' if you know what i mean, ive got smoother trails where the chili is overkill but im in no hurry to get a second bike and wont be for a while. cheers.

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    smooth trails ?

    Why not a hardtail option for a second mtb...... it seems silly to go FS on every trip or outing when it is not needed !
    " A way to a deep freedom " - Tarja

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    Quote Originally Posted by TIGMAN View Post
    Why not a hardtail option for a second mtb...... it seems silly to go FS on every trip or outing when it is not needed !
    +1 - my 2nd MTB is a rigid 29er. That's a good combo with a 26er 160mm FS bike.
    Safe riding,

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