Different perspective on Warden
I finally sold my Chili. Shipping it out tomorrow, minus shock. Anyone need CCDBA Shock, go to pinkbike.
I am planning on getting a new Team Green Chilco. BUT.... all this Warden hype is getting to me. My buddy sold his chilco and endo just to get the Warden.
As I am considering the different size Chili and color, should i try the the Warden? I had a great discussion with Qbert and he has some great input. Is the hype worth it. I am buying knolly regardless. If i go 650b, it is Warden. Or staying with bigger chilco. Hey, I am a Knomer...
My question is to all the Knolly owners. If you are considering the Warden, tell me why? Just cuz you wanted 650b and Knolly finally came out with one or the Warden changed your mind?
The Team Green isn't out till a few weeks according to Kev, so I am stuck on riding my new On One Evo 2 hardtail (excited). I am leaning towards the medium Chilcotin. but maybe, just maybe, waiting it out for the Warden.
What are your all thoughts? I don't want to get into all this on 650b forum. Here only from Knomers.
Qbert, please chime in as you had some really good input from our PMing.
a very good question. i'm not planning to switch my chili for anything else, but i understand your pov. if i was about to buy me a new bike i would definetly consider the warden.
well, i don't think we have to go through all the known points like weight, better rolling, etc. i think these are aspects that everyone knows who had a closer look at the differences of 26s and 650b. but i think we have to take a look into the future, and this is about guessing. will this trend settle down and be a valid option to ride also in the future or will it dissapear as it came? i'm tending to believe that it will prevail and over the years will sub the 26s. but nevertheless, i don't see the extinction of 26s but decreasing demand and therefore less choice on parts in the mediumterm future.
i haven't ridden a 650b yet, but before i would buy one, i would, for sure. this just to make sure if all the dis-/advantages would fit my style of riding. depending on this evaluation i would chose the one or the other.
OP, why do not you ask people who have real experience with 650b wheels? With all the respect, when asking Knomers about 650b, you will either get a lot of e-riding comments, a lot of "26 are never going to die", or feedback from guys who rode other than Knolly 650b bikes like me - so please excuse me for invading your thread.
I have been riding on 650b wheels a lot in the past 18 months, before they became the new big thing. Nothing beats a real trail experience. Rent a demo 650b bike, take it for a spin at your favorite trail, decide if the wheels holds you back or if you can feel any positives. I am seriously considering selling my Mojo HD frame and getting a Warden. The HD is great but a high BB and a limited tire clearance want me to try something different and I expect there is no better bike for my NE trails than the Warden at the moment.
As much as I love Knolly, I'm staying as far away from 650B as possible.
Why? I'm very happy with my Chili and Endo, but it seems like there might be very little choice in the future.
Originally Posted by arkon11
"Three balls at once...who knew?" - Cotton McKnight
Congrats on selling the frame. For complete new bike owners, it is hard not to tell them to consider 650B owing to the recent trend. However owing to the recent resistance toward the 27.5 that I think was originally quiet. I am hoping that the 26inch new products make a come back next year. I think most people thought it was going to evolve like the 29er i.e. much slower. I don't think anyone expected this...but the future does remain unknown. As folks have said, I think the bike industry just hit reset (e.g. 8-track, cassette, VCRs). However, 27.5 is not a new technology like electronics so people may or may not like this.
First question - was there anything wrong with the Chilcotin? Was it too much bike? If the answer is no, then stick with the Chilcotin.
As folks are e-speculating - the Warden falls in the middle, so if your felt over biked than the Warden may be ideal.
Or if you want to give it a try, go for it. Two reasons (mainly financial)
1) if you sell the Warden there will be a better demand in the used market
2) Buying a used Chilcotin in the used market will be cheaper
Are you ready to sell your fork and wheels for the switch as well?
As I argued before, Knolly's geometry is spot on in my view and this is huge factor in buying a frame. Only recently and with the 27.5 bikes by other companies has the geometry changed toward Knolly geometry. Some people recognize this change.
Good luck in your decision - it is a tough one.
I posted this on the 650b/27 forum.
It's certainly not directly what you're getting but sort of is. I'd love a Knolly but worry getting the Endorphin may not be a prudent move. If I can get away running the Warden with 26 wheels and a 160 fork for a year or so I'm in:
Any reason why you couldn't run 26 wheels on new 650/27 frames?
I realize it's not ideal but if I want to switch over all my components to a new frame is there any reason not to?
I'd like to get a new frame -- I have a Yeti ASR 5C now -- but don't want to buy a 26. I feel it's basically buying something that will soon be obsolete and hard to sell in a couple years.
The new Ibis 650B HDR -- according to Ibis and their website -- can be run as is with 26 wheels.
Makes me curious about other frames -- the new Knolly Warden is very appealing.
Obviously head tube angle would be steeper, but nothing a -1 degree Works Components or CC Angleset couldn't fix.
BB height seems to be the big one, but with big, fat 2.4 Continental TK tires I think I can live with a BB in the low 13" range for a year or so.
Then down the road a bit buy some 650B/27 wheels and fork and be done with it.
Is this crazy? Am I missing something?
FWIW, I wouldn't buy a Warden for the 650b, and I wouldn't NOT buy one for the 650b. The 650b is totally irrelevant to me b/c I don't personally think there is any way in hell I could tell the difference in a 650b bike and a 26" one. What does concern me about the 650b is that I couldn't use any of my current wheels or forks. That's an added expense, and a big one to replace what I have.
If I ever bought a Warden (which I don't plan to do), it would be because the travel is where I want, and the leverage curve of the suspension is a tad more pedal friendly than the Chili. Those two things alone are VERY appealing to me. At times I feel that the Chili is too much bike for me, and something like the Warden would be perfect and I could make work for all my riding.
HOWEVER, owning both a Chili and a Endo, I can't see myself ever doing this. I have built both up completely different (one is all air, clipless, 28 lbs; the other all coil, flats, 33 lbs), and it's apparently clear which bike I need to grab for which trail I'm riding.
I mean, I could play 18 holes of golf with nothing but a 9 iron, but doesn't necessarily mean it's a good thing for me.
Irregardless, the Warden looks like a killer frame, and a great option for folks.
If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.
I think Dude! Has some great advice. Which bike will best suit your needs? Try to put wheel size aside for a moment? Do you need a 160mm, burly frame? Or do you think the lighter 150mm Warden would better suit your needs. Are you keeping the hard tail?
A couple things that have been going through my mind lately:
The 26er is probably at the pinnacle of its design. Knolly's bikes are dialed and have little to complain about.
I don't think 27.5 will have a huge design learning curve like 29ers, but it will be interesting to see how things shake out over the next couple years.
It is amazing how quickly the industry has jumped on 27.5. Some companies have dropped there 26" line. Are we being forced out of 26" and will our used parts sell of pennies on the dollar?
I think the Warden will be a great bike. Not because of its wheel size but because of its geometry, suspension, and versatility. When I first order my Chili it was slated as a 150mm bike. During Knolly's transition year it changed a bit and became a160mm bike. Maybe this is the bike I was always hoping for.
If you dont have everything I would just wait. There is no point in running a brand new ~$2500 warden frame with 26" wheels IMO. The HTA wont be and steeper if both wheels are the same size (any size).
Originally Posted by jon123
2012 Knolly Chilcotin
2002 Haro VGF V3 - Still have my first real mtb
I'll chime in on this. When I bought my Chilcotin it was the logical upgrade from my old Endorphin. In steep setting it rides similarly to the old Endorphin but with much better pedal position, a more aggressive, centered feeling on the bike, and no need to mess with a travel adjust fork. No doubt in my mind that it's a fantastic bike but I'm riding it way below it's intended usage as I'm just not much of a jumper/hucker. It's an amazing technical climber and fabulous when it comes to fast chunky downhills. That said, most of the riding around the SLC/PC area is of the long mellow climbs followed by fast mellow descents with an occasional rock garden area. As a whole, the Chilcotin is super fun on this still but definitely overkill. I'm also hoping to do a bit more enduro/super D style racing over the next few years and I would think the Warden will be a killer tool for the job.
I've got a Ragley hardtail built up with 27.5 and really like the way that bike rolls compared to how it did with 26. I think some of the subtle enhancements in roll over with 27.5 are more noticeable on a hardtail. The benefits are still undoubtedly there with a fully but I think it's more difficult to pinpoint exactly what gains your getting from the wheels vs the suspension.
I think the Warden should fit nicely with my riding style. It should excel on the super techy trails down south but have some nice gains over the riding I do in the Wasatch. If I had a 3-4 bike quiver this would be a much harder decision but as it stands, I'm generally a one bike for everything kinda guy and I think the Warden suits me best.
Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa
Nobody I know has one here. I can demo one but it wouldn't be Warden. I love Knolly suspension so I could not give a demo'd bike accurate eval.
Originally Posted by StiHacka
I wanted to move up in size. So when the team green came out, I said wtf, buy bigger size in color I want.
Originally Posted by Dude!
I am over biked at times, but it is my one do all bike and we have days of full use of it. I love it. I do things on it I, personally, wouldn't do on Endo. It can be done on Endo but I am heavier and lack finesse some have?
Maybe worth while waiting it out a while, see what all the Warden owners think, and base solid decision next year.
I agree that green is dead sexy - it will make you faster on the days you feel overbiked
Originally Posted by F.N.G
Seriously if it is your one bike, I would stick with the Chilcotin. Get a lighter fork (new Pike 160mm), lighter tires, shock with a lock out - this will make the bike really fast. On the bigger days, throw some burly tires on it and go shred. It doesn't take that long to change tires. The adjustable geometry, etc - go Chilcotin!
Interestingly, I kind of view it as a business decision... Not quite a good analogy, but I building my hard tail. It took a LOT of effort to find a straight 1 1/8 steerer fork. Tapered is the thing now.
Originally Posted by G-AIR
Later on, if this trend moves on successfully, will 26 components be hard to get?
If I had a 3-4 bike quiver this would be a much harder decision but as it stands, I'm generally a one bike for everything kinda guy and I think the Warden suits me best.
I may have a unique perspective. I have ridden a majority of the initial offerings of 650b bikes. I have 2 Chilcotins one medium one large 2 very different builds.
Yellow= burly rims, coil shock, 36 fork.
Raw= DBa, 34 fork, XC rims, 27.5 front wheel 26 rear.
The bikes feel completely different. It's uncanny the build does make the package the Knolly frame is the heart or foundation to an unbelievable ride.
First the bike you "need" very much is dependent on your riding preference & the trails you ride.
I've found in Florida 29ers rule the sandy trails.
In Arizona it was a mix of 29/26 depending on the above "need" noted.
In the NW it seems 26 is applicable.
It is my belief trail construction is a very strong influence in this wheel dilemma.
Everyone is in a uproar over trivial crap like wheels. It's good to have choices! It's a sign the Mtn biking industry is booming.
I'm currently looking at the Warden to replace my 29 5" travel all Mtn bike & be a do all on unfamiliar trails.
Don't listen to the advice that you cannot feel a difference because you can.
Marketing gimmick says its the best of both worlds. I see it the other way, it's just enough big wheel to ruin the snappy acceleration of the 26. But it may just be the ticket if your thinking 29 but want to ride aggressive. Be honest with yourself though. Do you really ride aggressive like the pros or do you just think your being aggressive. Gopros have the truth within them.
We could go round & round. At the end of the day this is a first world problem. Enjoy it!
If you have no parts go Endorphin or Chilo ride until the Wardens are available.
Originally Posted by bionicman
I am being honest with myself, and no, I don't "ride like the pros".....
FNG, if I was in your position ( "feeling overbiked" on the Chili) and wanted only one bike, I would get the Warden. I'm sure it will be a great all rounder and a better peddler than the Chili.
I have a Chili with 650b front/ 26 rear, coil both ends. 34ib, soon to be 33lb (going 1 x 10) which I want to keep for bike park days. The Warden will become my trail bike with air both ends. Hopefully sub 30lb.
Just trying to add content to the topic not try to disrespect :-)
Originally Posted by F.N.G
my take on this is it is mostly industry driven. where are the people that were demanding 27.5"? if you go back 6 months to a year, all people on this forum were talking about was how much the chili ruled and then how the new endo did too and that it was an awesome trail bike. to the point that people started selling their chilis and just riding endos. maybe dave turner was right to drop the rfx. just look at how many used chilis are on the market and look at how cheap they are selling for. maybe the 160mm segment is really dieng and a well designed 140mm bike with great geometry and a good suspension design is all the majority of riders need
where in the last year on this forum was this huge movement and request for 27.5"? sure, i saw a few guys say maybe the endo would be 27.5" and that'd be great, but i sure didnt see anyone insisting on it.
kirkl pacenti has been touting 27.5" since 2004 and suddenly 10 years later we have some brands going full 650b and dropping their 26" bikes out of the blue. fox and roxshox finally jumped on board. my question is why? was it a marketing/sales decision or consumer driven? was the market for 29" and 26" saturated and stagnant? is this where manufacturers can drum up a buzz and sales and get you to switch to a new frame with the same suspension design but requiring a new fork and new rims too? hence new sales as you drop your current ride for the next, latest greatest thing. maybe following apple's business plan of making you want something that really isn't that huge an upgrade over what you currently have. the new iphone 5s is hardly groundbreaking compared to the 5, yet the apple sheep are lining up waiting to buy in. where were all these manufacturers that are now dropping their 26" line up 10 years ago when geometry wasn't even close to being dialed and a bigger wheel would have made a bigger difference?
are we on the cusp of an incredible leap in biking performance or are we victims of our own insatiable desire to have the latest and greatest? look at the khs dh bike that was at interbike, a taiwan catalogue turd dressed up this year with 27.5" wheels and being marketed as a big leap in performance. hell, their own pr guy admitted the design with 26" wheels was lacking but now poof, it's a dh slayer. lol. would anyone here take a 27.5" khs dh bike over the current podium?? a good suspension design and geometry are key imho. if you have that, how big a leap will the wheel size make? will i suddenly be steve smith? i don't think so, i'll still be a middle aged hack who enjoys riding a bike. will i have more fun? i doubt it and i know my bank account won't be having more fun
i'm not ragging on progress or the wheel size, ride what you like. i just don't buy the hype. imo it's almost completely industry driven and of course you have the zealots just like the 29er did. but it took years for the 29er to finally crack the am markeyt once they finally dialed in the key ingredient, geometry. like the banshee prime, but is the prime head and shoulders above the rune?
i'm sure the warden will be a good bike. it'd be hard for it not to be as the v2 versions of the endo and podium are better than the v1's and the chili is a great bike. how much better can the warden be? hopefully we can look past the hype and see if it really is
Thanks for the input that i referred to, in my starting post, that you have. My dilemma isn't "will my riding style be suited for Warden or Chili". I was just wondering due to this market shift, is it wise to jump to the 650b? I wouldn't even be in this situation if I hadn't sold Chili and upsized to Medium. I just don't want to be on an obsolete bike design in quick future.
Originally Posted by qbert2000
Your point about Dave Turner is spot on. Just my simple opinion...the Warden will eventually replace either the Endorphin or Chilcotin later on. The bottom line is Noel has a business to run just like Dave Turner does. Dave saw a potential loss in revenue in RFX, despite the loud few who objected. I thought the poor man was going to be burned at the stake by the homers on that forum. So, regardless, it was smart of Noel to design this bike for market changes. It simply has to be done...
This thread was not to cause debate but just some realistic input as many of you have provided.
We are victims of our own insatiable desire to have the latest and greatest
Originally Posted by qbert2000
I like what Qbert is saying here...Most importantly ride what you like. I think a lot of this is thinking the next is best. A year ago there was drool on the threads regarding Knollys offerings. I was one of them and still stand by my original thoughts. The Chili is amazing. So is the Podium. It seems like a lot of folks are saying they are over biked and are therefore choosing the Endo or considering the Warden. I'm not sure how many here are freeriding and hitting 10,15,20 foot drops but likely the masses are more trail riders and would prefer a more pedal friendly bike. Personally, I prefer to suffer a bit on efficiency to have the added fun on the downs and trail features that the longer travel bikes yield. Others want the opposite and this is the most basic reason to consider when opting for a bike. If you feel over biked on the Chili, then the Warden would be a great choice. I have very little experience on 650B, but I can say it is much more fun to ride than 29ers!
Originally Posted by qbert2000
I cant really say about whether the Warden will suit your riding style, trails or preferences. But it is a Knolly. So thats good. Also, Ive been on 650b wheels since 2009, and I will say that they handle like 26ers but have subtle rolling/traction benefits. Its not a night and day difference like that between 26 and 29, but its there. A long ride on rough and rocky trails would be enough to feel the advantage. Subtle.
Now as a Knolly rider and therefore a connoisseur, Im sure you would appreciate these little subtleties enough to go for the Warden.
I would buy one if I hadnt just built up a new Endo a few months ago.
Turner Burner 650b, Knolly Endorphin, Turner RFX, Voodoo D-jab 650B
this is a sensible view. but its important to factor in the rolling weight penalty 650b brings. ..to pick up from where you left off.. ive got the endo and chilco and wouldn't buy the warden because the endo can be built to ride sufficiently different from the chilco. I don't think a warden and a chili makes sense. but maybe an endo built up light, and a warden built up aggressive might. but still I think the best solution is to have a endo and chili. I also believe 26 wont disappear. I think people like specialised wont buy it for a start and while they don't go with it, others will follow suit, and manufacturers wont stop making 26 inch parts.
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