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  1. #1
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    DB Air Alternatives for Chilly

    Have not had good luck with my DBAir. Sending it in once again for repairs. I like how it feels when it's working but it hasn't been right in awhile. I prefer a plush ride with the ability to stiffen it when climbing. The CS stuff seems ideal but I'd probably do the coil for more reliability and better feel. What are you guys riding?

  2. #2
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    CCDB titanium coil. Feels so much better than the CCDB air.

  3. #3
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    BOS Stoy coil. Feels so much better than the CCDB air.

  4. #4
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    AVA Woodie, the best shock in the world?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by tom34 View Post
    CCDB titanium coil. Feels so much better than the CCDB air.
    Yeah, I have one on my Delirium. I've had that one for about 7 years now and it's been stellar. A CCDB-CS is on the list.

    The Bos seems interesting but don't like the support options.

    Avy stuff looks good but no lockout thingee.

  6. #6
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    Woodyak, I was running a Pushed RS Monarch Plus RC3 on my original Endo. I also ran it on my Chili for a few rides until my CCDBA came in.

    I got to replace the Fox RP23 as I couldn't get that shock to feel good. might have been because I'm over 200lb RTR. It blew away the Fox RP23 in every instance.

    Its been awhile since I rode it but i do recall the shock being just as plush as the CCDBA. But with the switch I could firm it up (HP or Greenwoods) or open it up (Lynn Vietnam) I did however find the rear end could hang up over square edge hits if I was in the Pedal or Lock position. This is where I found the CCDBA to be a better shock as I could find a happy medium and not think about switches.
    I still have my RS monarch but the custom tune for my weight would be way over damped for you to even bother trying.
    I would take a look at Avy's offerings. Give Craig a call. I have always been extremely impressed with the Avy shocks I've run.

  7. #7
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    Everyone has different preferences....

    For me, I really like the DB Air on my Delirium. I have had a number of shocks on this bike.

    I have PUSH Monarch RT3, which is nice. Handle stuff well, but it more on the AM side of riding and makes it easy to pop little trail features. The lock-out is useful. It is not the best for small bumps, but no bad either. I thought this was an ideal shock for making the Delirium more pedal friendly, but the DB Air has replaced it. The DB Air doesn't pedal as well, but it is not far behind and the Monarch is a few notches below when it comes to the downhills.

    I also had the DB Coil until I got the DB Air. I prefer the DB air over the DB coil for most riding, particularly anything with pedaling involved, which is most of my rides. The DB Air is nice balance of everything. I was surprised that I was going to like it as much as I have. I really haven't found too much of weakness. As I said in another thread, I have little adjustable levers which allow me to switch tunes on the fly. I sold my CCDB coil after a few months of riding the DB Air.

    An Avy shock would be nice additional shock for bigger rides, but I have the Podium with an Avy rear, so there is really no need.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Everyone has different preferences...
    Exactly.

    Especially when it comes to ccdb coil vs air...its always hard to get people to agree...i thinks its simply down to each riders preffered style / what trails they ride / how the rest of the bike is built up.

    I personally am fed up with air shocks not really doing what i hoped so im now trying to put coil on everything, even if some do say to me its over gunned...id rather have an extra 300-400g on a bike than be unhappy with suspesion set-up/performance and/or feel of the ride.

    With the shock being the most important component on the bike (with forks joint first place and brakes in third), i dont why anyone can scrimp with weights or cash...these are the components folks should experiment / splash out on the most...they define the ride.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post

    An Avy shock would be nice additional shock for bigger rides, but I have the Podium with an Avy rear, so there is really no need.
    do you think its the best performing shock you can put on a podium?

  10. #10
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    DB Air Alternatives for Chilly

    Is the new Fox Float X CTD shock a good option for the Chilcotin?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Everyone has different preferences....

    As I said in another thread, I have little adjustable levers which allow me to switch tunes on the fly. I sold my CCDB coil after a few months of riding the DB Air.
    Hey Dude! Do you use that lever to adjust the LSC on your CCDB to bias it for climbing and descending? How much adjustment range to you have and how much difference does it make to the bike performance?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibasso001 View Post
    Is the new Fox Float X CTD shock a good option for the Chilcotin?
    I am betting around here you will get very little support for the Float X. I have no experience with it myself but from what I've heard it behaves similarly to the regular Float CTD but with better resistance to performance fading in sustained DH riding. I could be off base there though.

    I ride a RP23 which, according to MTBR, should feel like garbage but it rides great. Maybe it's because I'm only 160lbs.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skooks View Post
    Hey Dude! Do you use that lever to adjust the LSC on your CCDB to bias it for climbing and descending? How much adjustment range to you have and how much difference does it make to the bike performance?
    Yes, it works well.

    I wish MTBR would fix there picture uploading so that I can show everyone what it looks like.

    Anyway... yes it is really cool to adjust the LSC and it is amazing the difference. I only use it for the extremes - long climbs, gnarly descents, but keep it in the middle most of the time.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    Exactly.

    Especially when it comes to ccdb coil vs air...its always hard to get people to agree...i thinks its simply down to each riders preffered style / what trails they ride / how the rest of the bike is built up.

    I personally am fed up with air shocks not really doing what i hoped so im now trying to put coil on everything, even if some do say to me its over gunned...id rather have an extra 300-400g on a bike than be unhappy with suspesion set-up/performance and/or feel of the ride.

    With the shock being the most important component on the bike (with forks joint first place and brakes in third), i dont why anyone can scrimp with weights or cash...these are the components folks should experiment / splash out on the most...they define the ride.
    I haven't found the air as a let down for riding. Quite the opposite. Let me preface, our trails are not overly technical, they are fast singletrack through the woods with jumps, roots, and only small sections of rock gardens. We do ride other locations that are much more rocky - Moab, Santa Barbara, etc.

    I also like to have my suspension ride higher and react more at speed and to me the air shock and fork for the most part gives me this desired riding style. I love the Fox Float 36 fork - I can dial that in perfectly. It feels like crap in the parking lot, but on the trail - wow! Same goes for the DB Air - small stuff as slow speed is a bit blah. If I play upfront of the house on the curbs - the DB Coil feel better and is a little plusher on the technical climbs. However, I find the faster I go the DB Air and Fox Float just feel better and better - some times scary.

    For technical climbing, the DB air is a nice balance of riding higher and traction. I often felt the coil after longer rides would suck my energy. With the DB Air, I still get great downhill performance but with extra energy.

    I am also that guy that hits all of the little features on the side of the trail, goes for the big side of the log hops, pump the trail...the air setups just work better for me. The air setups are better for the jumping as well - a bit better pop.

    When winter comes and the trails are wet, I can easily adjust the suspension for this. I like the tuneability of air.

    The only time I would want coil for this setup is if there was relentless rocks. However, at Moab I brought both of the DB Coil and DB Air and preferred the DB Air.

    The only thing that I wonder about between folks preference....I wonder how much difference there is with the Delirium shock orientation versus the Chilcotin shock orientation. I think the shock orientation on the Delrium (and Podium) maybe better in moving the shock. NOTE I HAVE ZERO KNOWLEDGE ON THIS IT IS JUST A THOUGHT.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    do you think its the best performing shock you can put on a podium?
    I really like the AVY on the Podium. I never think about the rear end - it pops and just eats the trail. Some of my buddies have the DB Air on their Podiums and are really liking it with minimal concerns as well.


    I didn't like the DB Coil on the Ver 1 Podium I could never get it lively enough for my liking. I like the Vivid Air for jumping, but it wasn't great in the technical. The DB coil was great in the technical but not the best for jumping. I mentioned all of this to Craig and whatever he did is near perfect.

    The ver 2 Podium is more lively to start so it is hard to make too many concrete connections because I got the Avy for the Ver 2 Podium. It works so well I just don't want to try anything else and that says a lot because I like to tinker with new bike stuff.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    I really like the AVY on the Podium. I never think about the rear end - it pops and just eats the trail. Some of my buddies have the DB Air on their Podiums and are really liking it with minimal concerns as well.


    I didn't like the DB Coil on the Ver 1 Podium I could never get it lively enough for my liking. I like the Vivid Air for jumping, but it wasn't great in the technical. The DB coil was great in the technical but not the best for jumping. I mentioned all of this to Craig and whatever he did is near perfect.

    The ver 2 Podium is more lively to start so it is hard to make too many concrete connections because I got the Avy for the Ver 2 Podium. It works so well I just don't want to try anything else and that says a lot because I like to tinker with new bike stuff.
    Dude hit the nail on the head about the AVY. I have never been on a bike that was so good off the lip of a jump as my Chilcotin with the Woodie in DH tune. I notice a slight difference on long rides or big uphill pedals, but not enough that it really matters on the Chilcotin.

    I am not sure why, but the DBair works great for me on the Endorphin. It does not have the wallow at slow speeds that showed through on the Chilcotin.

    I don't know if this helps any, but why not go coil on the Chilcotin and DBair on the Endo?
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    Have not had good luck with my DBAir. Sending it in once again for repairs. I like how it feels when it's working but it hasn't been right in awhile. I prefer a plush ride with the ability to stiffen it when climbing. The CS stuff seems ideal but I'd probably do the coil for more reliability and better feel. What are you guys riding?
    Woodyak, what's going on? Symptoms? I thought from your previous posts that you loved the DB AIR?

  18. #18
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    CCDB coil is the ultimate IMO, but the stock RP23 that came on my 12' chilly is the best RP23 I've ever ridden. Throughout the years, RP23 damping has been all over the place. The tune that came on my 12' chilli works really well at my body weight (~140lbs).

  19. #19
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    Lighter riders do get on well with the RP23. I had one on my Chili and am 50lb heavier RTR. It was fine on the decents, super stable, i liked it alot decending, but its lacked playfulness the rest of the time which is purely a weight thing, i.e. the shock did not perform properly as it could not support the combined weight of me and the bike.

    The main complaint heavier riders have is, with a FOX set up, how it's angle sensitive...on steep climbs the rear sags into the travel and the fork runs high

    The review below sums up the difference between bos and fox kitted bikes in a way many can relate to, i think its a good comparison between floats / bos and also cane creek:

    BOS vs FOX... there is only one way to find out... FIGHT! « Singletrack Forum

    Its a good insight into why European people rave on about BOS.

  20. #20
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    I did love it while it was working. Over the past few months I've been having issues. Lots of issues. The shock was feeling really weird for about a couple of months and then the shaft broke about a month or so ago. Sent it in for repairs and they fixed under warranty w/o question. Put it back on and it felt a bit wonky but nothing I could put my finger on. Been riding it a bunch and now the 1st 15/20mm of travel feels like a blown shock after that bit of travel it feels normal. This makes the suspension feel pretty terrible. The last straw was I tried my wife's Rev1 Endo w/RP23 doing some lift rides and the suspension felt so much better than my Chilly with CCDBA. So I took it off and sent it in today. Gonna see what CC will do for me but seriously considering a change.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    I really like the AVY on the Podium. I never think about the rear end - it pops and just eats the trail. Some of my buddies have the DB Air on their Podiums and are really liking it with minimal concerns as well.


    I didn't like the DB Coil on the Ver 1 Podium I could never get it lively enough for my liking. I like the Vivid Air for jumping, but it wasn't great in the technical. The DB coil was great in the technical but not the best for jumping. I mentioned all of this to Craig and whatever he did is near perfect.

    The ver 2 Podium is more lively to start so it is hard to make too many concrete connections because I got the Avy for the Ver 2 Podium. It works so well I just don't want to try anything else and that says a lot because I like to tinker with new bike stuff.
    sweet! ...my woodie is on its way...its crossed the atlantic and is on our mainland, wont be long now but i can hardly wait! Im really excited about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by bubba13 View Post
    I don't know if this helps any, but why not go coil on the Chilcotin and DBair on the Endo?
    +1 for Coil on the Chili.

    Delirian and myself are both putting BOS Vipr2 air shocks on our Endos, since there are no 'Knolly tune' CCDB air CS shocks available aftermarket.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    I did love it while it was working. Over the past few months I've been having issues. Lots of issues. The shock was feeling really weird for about a couple of months and then the shaft broke about a month or so ago. Sent it in for repairs and they fixed under warranty w/o question. Put it back on and it felt a bit wonky but nothing I could put my finger on. Been riding it a bunch and now the 1st 15/20mm of travel feels like a blown shock after that bit of travel it feels normal. This makes the suspension feel pretty terrible. The last straw was I tried my wife's Rev1 Endo w/RP23 doing some lift rides and the suspension felt so much better than my Chilly with CCDBA. So I took it off and sent it in today. Gonna see what CC will do for me but seriously considering a change.
    Are you sending it to Cane Creek or Suspension Experts? My CCDB Air lost all damping a couple of weeks ago at the Killington Enduro race and I sent it to Suspension Experts. They replaced the damper shaft (which turned out to be scored) under warranty and sent it back to me. It feels a little softer but I can't tell for sure. Rebound damping is working again. I raced it at the Sunday River Enduro without any issues. That being said, I have ordered a Woodie and plan on using the CCDB only for lighter duty riding instead of long weekends of racing at the ski mountains.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    I did love it while it was working. Over the past few months I've been having issues. Lots of issues. The shock was feeling really weird for about a couple of months and then the shaft broke about a month or so ago. Sent it in for repairs and they fixed under warranty w/o question. Put it back on and it felt a bit wonky but nothing I could put my finger on. Been riding it a bunch and now the 1st 15/20mm of travel feels like a blown shock after that bit of travel it feels normal. This makes the suspension feel pretty terrible. The last straw was I tried my wife's Rev1 Endo w/RP23 doing some lift rides and the suspension felt so much better than my Chilly with CCDBA. So I took it off and sent it in today. Gonna see what CC will do for me but seriously considering a change.

    Hmm. I'm wondering now if there's something wrong with my CCDBair. I keep tweaking and dialing the suspension and sometimes the rear feels ok but it never feels CCDBA-spectacular like I'm expecting. Sometimes on fast choppy DH stuff it feels like it's blowing through it's travel and bottoming hard. Kinda harsh mid-stroke or blowing through not sure which.

    How do I know if there's something broke or if I've just got the settings so screwed up it's just not working right? FWIW I haven't strayed too far from the Knolly recommended starting points... a click or two here, a half turn there, up a couple pounds, back down, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    Sometimes on fast choppy DH stuff it feels like it's blowing through it's travel and bottoming hard. Kinda harsh mid-stroke or blowing through not sure which
    might be hydrolocking

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    Quote Originally Posted by nybike1971 View Post
    Are you sending it to Cane Creek or Suspension Experts? My CCDB Air lost all damping a couple of weeks ago at the Killington Enduro race and I sent it to Suspension Experts. They replaced the damper shaft (which turned out to be scored) under warranty and sent it back to me. It feels a little softer but I can't tell for sure. Rebound damping is working again. I raced it at the Sunday River Enduro without any issues. That being said, I have ordered a Woodie and plan on using the CCDB only for lighter duty riding instead of long weekends of racing at the ski mountains.
    Suspension Experts. I contacted CC and they told me to send it into SE. The Woodie is looking more and more like the real deal.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    Suspension Experts. I contacted CC and they told me to send it into SE. The Woodie is looking more and more like the real deal.
    Woodie = WIN
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  28. #28
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    DB Air Alternatives for Chilly-2013-08-08-07.37.32.jpgDB Air Alternatives for Chilly-2013-08-08-07.37.38.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Skooks View Post
    Hey Dude! Do you use that lever to adjust the LSC on your CCDB to bias it for climbing and descending? How much adjustment range to you have and how much difference does it make to the bike performance?
    DB Air Alternatives for Chilly-2013-08-11-14.52.16.jpgDB Air Alternatives for Chilly-2013-08-11-14.52.23.jpg

  29. #29
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    Very cool. What type of RP machine is that from, and what's the material?

    That yellow frame looks awesome too.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeathstar View Post
    Very cool. What type of RP machine is that from, and what's the material?
    make one here: 3D Printing Service i.materialise | Home
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  31. #31
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    X-Fusion Vector Air! I tried one on my Delirium and coming from a CCDB coil I was REALLY impressed by its performance. Vector Air is an awesome shock.
    Quote Originally Posted by Warp
    ...es como acomodarte los calzones, seguro lo puede hacer alguien pero es mejor que lo haga uno mismo

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Not what I was asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thedeathstar View Post
    Not what I was asking.
    My buddy did it for me - not sure of the material or the machine.

    Thanks for the color comment - day glo honey orange - I love the color.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Thanks for the color comment - day glo honey orange - I love the color.
    love it too.

    ive added it to my list:

    day glo fluoro yellow
    day glo flouro green
    day glo honey orange

    comprising the sexiest-single-colour-paint-job-porn produced in mtb history.

  35. #35
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    Bringing this thread back. I too am considering something besides the DB air for my Chilco. I am plagued with problems that the service centers and cane creek themselves cant figure out. My shock makes a clunking noise upon rebound. Every time I send it in for repair they rebuild it, it works for about two weeks and then the problem is back. I've ruled out frame and hardware issues and even tried a different shock with the same hardware and the problem went away. Cane creek is currently sending me a new shock but I might just sell it and get something new when it arrives. I am thinking I might try something from Xfusion. I have one of their forks and I absolutely love it. Has anyone run an Xfusion vector air or an O2?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by finch6013 View Post
    Bringing this thread back. I too am considering something besides the DB air for my Chilco. I am plagued with problems that the service centers and cane creek themselves cant figure out. My shock makes a clunking noise upon rebound. Every time I send it in for repair they rebuild it, it works for about two weeks and then the problem is back. I've ruled out frame and hardware issues and even tried a different shock with the same hardware and the problem went away. Cane creek is currently sending me a new shock but I might just sell it and get something new when it arrives. I am thinking I might try something from Xfusion. I have one of their forks and I absolutely love it. Has anyone run an Xfusion vector air or an O2?
    I've tried both the vector air hlr and ccdbair and imo the ccdbair is the better shock. It has better manners in the high speed rough chunk than the vector air. There's more room for adjustment in the low speed with the ccdbair. Don't get me wrong the vector air hlr is a fantastic shock and has great mid stroke support but I think the ccdbair is a better shock. fwiw I've never had any problems with my ccdbair. Sorry to hear that others have not had such good luck.

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    I love me ccdba and don't think I will find a shock that will be much ahead of it but after my recent experience I'm doubting the cane creek's reliability. I'll probably use the replacement and give it another try.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by finch6013 View Post
    I love me ccdba and don't think I will find a shock that will be much ahead of it but after my recent experience I'm doubting the cane creek's reliability. I'll probably use the replacement and give it another try.
    If you're looking for reliability, don't mind a little extra weight, and want a shock that performs better get an avalanche shock.

  39. #39
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    Thing is I do mind the weight a little. I've used coils in the past and I love the performance but I do a lot of enduro racing so I tend to err on the side of lighter parts that I can still trust come race day.
    I just can't get along with the looks of the Avalanche stuff for some reason. I'm sure the performance is top notch though.

  40. #40
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    bos the kirk or woodie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    bos the kirk or woodie.
    Word.

    Had CCDB Coil. Get it tuned. Got Woodie. Sold DB Coil.

    Had RP23. Got Vivid Air. Sold RP23. Got DB Air. Sold Vivid Air. Got Vip`R. Sold DB Air. Got Kirk. Have now 2 BOS shocks - both are really good, but Kirk`s better.

    Correct cfrench, sorry. bos the kirk AND woodie.

    (not really tested DB Air CS, so no opinion about it)

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    ....or BOS Stoy. If you can get your hands on one since they have stopped making in 200 x 57 (you need an ST04 tune).

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    Quote Originally Posted by finch6013 View Post
    Bringing this thread back. I too am considering something besides the DB air for my Chilco. I am plagued with problems that the service centers and cane creek themselves cant figure out. My shock makes a clunking noise upon rebound. Every time I send it in for repair they rebuild it, it works for about two weeks and then the problem is back. I've ruled out frame and hardware issues and even tried a different shock with the same hardware and the problem went away. Cane creek is currently sending me a new shock but I might just sell it and get something new when it arrives. I am thinking I might try something from Xfusion. I have one of their forks and I absolutely love it. Has anyone run an Xfusion vector air or an O2?
    I also had this same exact problem. I basically was w/o a properly working Chilly for a couple/few months this summer. Fortunately, I had just picked up the Endo so I put the Chilly in the garage for awhile. I ended up replacing the DBair with an Avalanche. I was kind of blown away at how much better the Avy is than the DBAir. It breathed new air into the Chilly. Don't get me wrong I really liked the DBAir, when it was working, but I love the Avy.
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    Bos stuff appears to be kinda hard to get in the US and I would be without proper customer service. Amazing looking shocks though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by finch6013 View Post
    Bos stuff appears to be kinda hard to get in the US and I would be without proper customer service. Amazing looking shocks though.
    BOS MTB Renews Commitment to US Suspension Market w/ New Distributor

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    $720 for a Bos Kirk?! That's crazy talk!

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    Quote Originally Posted by B Gillespie View Post
    $720 for a Bos Kirk?! That's crazy talk!
    $720? That's cheaper than in Europe, 720 euro which is about £600.00. I wouldn't complain at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by B Gillespie View Post
    $720 for a Bos Kirk?! That's crazy talk!
    Not really, according to pergamonx The Kirk is nearing the performance of the woodie, i.e., nearly matching it, while its almost 1/3 of the weight (Kirk is only 340g). The questions is whether the Kirk is the new 'best shock in the world'? if so, then the price may well be justified.. incidentally when I last spoke to Craig at Avalanche, BOS was the only outfit in the world that he gave respect to.. and im sure he said he advised them on the 2014 line.. The other thing worth considering is that suspension defines how good the ride is...it doesn't matter how good Noels geo is, if you put a Fox shock on on a Knolly, the bike wont 'come alive'. With BOS or AVA shocks, Knollys are, dare I say it, improved somewhat..

  49. #49
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    I wish Craig would make an air shock from the ground up. I'd buy one in a heartbeat (not interested in an avy-mod dhx air). It will be a cold day in hell with pigs flying everywhere though.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by beefmagic View Post
    I wish Craig would make an air shock from the ground up. I'd buy one in a heartbeat (not interested in an avy-mod dhx air). It will be a cold day in hell with pigs flying everywhere though.....
    I second that. I would be all over it. I did ask him if he was planning on doing work on the CTD, but the he said the cost to rework the shock housing was ridiculous and not worth it. I could only imagine a Woodie Air.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beefmagic View Post
    I wish Craig would make an air shock from the ground up. I'd buy one in a heartbeat (not interested in an avy-mod dhx air). It will be a cold day in hell with pigs flying everywhere though.....
    Well, from the ground up might be a stretch, but pigs my fly and it might get breezy in hell...just saying.
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    That would be nice, but craig doesn't like air shocks all that much. He points to the fact that heat builds up and changes the spring and damping characteristics too much. I'll say that my avalanche shocks handled repetitive super chunky riding amazing and I'm not sure that an air shock could ever do the same due to this, unless there were adequate cool-down periods. Air springs are kind of wonky too, but leverage rates can be adjusted for that. I'd think it would have to have a good amount of oil, an external reservoir, some kind of cooling fins on the body perhaps, and then it might be enough to get the craig seal of approval, but even then it's a hard sell I'd imagine. I'd bet he has ideas, but they are just not feasible with his equipment or just wouldn't pay off enough to be worth it.

    What makes me upset is that we get shocks like CTD and RP3 that don't have the same internals in terms of damping circuits as something like my Woodie, DHS or a fox RC4. They have these "preset" selections where you can select from way too little low-speed support that makes it blow through travel, or way too much low-speed compression damping that doesn't blow off for sharp edged hits. They count on us wanting to flip a lever instead of being able to set it up to work pretty damn awesome in most every situation, as my avalanche shocks did. I don't know why, but they are so resistant to provide this for us. Only a few shocks like the CCDB air actually have these damping circuits and adjustability. Otherwise, these shocks simply lack the high and low speed damping circuits of the before mentioned coil shocks and we're just supposed to "like it". Why does one kind of bike get great damping but for some reason it's "not needed" on others?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Why does one kind of bike get great damping but for some reason it's "not needed" on others?
    That's the black art of suspension design for you. frame design cant take into consideration the differing dynamics of all shocks on the market. the problem isn't that though, its big firms like fox with an oem monopoly who will always recognise the $$ advantage of mass manufacturing a one-size-fits-all-sub-optimal-on-a-large-percentage-of-frames product. Just because a particular frame design works better with a fox float than another frame, doesn't mean the one that works with the float is better, that would be silly to think that as im sure you realise. I look at it like this...since FOX aren't really with the mtb bike world anymore, i.e. they're only in it to make big $$$, we should thank our lucky stars that Craig Seekins (Avalanche) remains to this day, true to the game, and that Olivier Bossard (BOS) had the guts to start up his own firm a few years back to take on the large firms (fox, rockshox, cane creek) head to head, and along with his 25 man team have succeeded to produce products for us that are actually worth the price you pay for them

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiss'er View Post
    i could only imagine a woodie air
    +1 ...he could start with a mod for the Kirk, til it was better than the woodie...then make his own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    That's the black art of suspension design for you. frame design cant take into consideration the differing dynamics of all shocks on the market. the problem isn't that though, its big firms like fox with an oem monopoly who will always recognise the $$ advantage of mass manufacturing a one-size-fits-all-sub-optimal-on-a-large-percentage-of-frames product. Just because a particular frame design works better with a fox float than another frame, doesn't mean the one that works with the float is better, that would be silly to think that as im sure you realise. I look at it like this...since FOX aren't really with the mtb bike world anymore, i.e. they're only in it to make big $$$, we should thank our lucky stars that Craig Seekins (Avalanche) remains to this day, true to the game, and that Olivier Bossard (BOS) had the guts to start up his own firm a few years back to take on the large firms (fox, rockshox, cane creek) head to head, and along with his 25 man team have succeeded to produce products for us that are actually worth the price you pay for them
    It's even deeper than that. BOS gives you virtually no information about their shocks on their site. Avalanche by the same token is filled with information, cross-sections, pictures of the actual circuits and diagrams, etc. The Bos Void *seems* to have the same kind of standard high/low speed compression circuit that the avalanche woodie, chubbie and DHS have (it's a fairly common circuit design in motorcross), but honestly we really don't know because bos would rather keep that information so we can't make an informed decision.

    The void seems like it could be what I'm after...but that's also how I'd describe their website and information...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    That's the black art of suspension design for you. frame design cant take into consideration the differing dynamics of all shocks on the market. the problem isn't that though, its big firms like fox with an oem monopoly who will always recognise the $$ advantage of mass manufacturing a one-size-fits-all-sub-optimal-on-a-large-percentage-of-frames product. Just because a particular frame design works better with a fox float than another frame, doesn't mean the one that works with the float is better, that would be silly to think that as im sure you realise. I look at it like this...since FOX aren't really with the mtb bike world anymore, i.e. they're only in it to make big $$$, we should thank our lucky stars that Craig Seekins (Avalanche) remains to this day, true to the game, and that Olivier Bossard (BOS) had the guts to start up his own firm a few years back to take on the large firms (fox, rockshox, cane creek) head to head, and along with his 25 man team have succeeded to produce products for us that are actually worth the price you pay for them
    well put

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    For the record, i've convinced myself that the endo is best with air and the chili and podium are best with coil..probably should have said what ive been putting together:

    Endo: BOS Kirk + 36 Floats lowered to 150mm (want a Pike though)
    Chili: AVA Woodie + AVA Cartridge in 36 Vans
    Podium: BOS Stoy Rare (or AVA Woodie) + BOS Idylle Rare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    It's even deeper than that. BOS gives you virtually no information about their shocks on their site. Avalanche by the same token is filled with information, cross-sections, pictures of the actual circuits and diagrams, etc. The Bos Void *seems* to have the same kind of standard high/low speed compression circuit that the avalanche woodie, chubbie and DHS have (it's a fairly common circuit design in motorcross), but honestly we really don't know because bos would rather keep that information so we can't make an informed decision.

    The void seems like it could be what I'm after...but that's also how I'd describe their website and information...
    True BOS are no where near as transparent as Craig Seekins (he is a legend though). But in defence of BOS, they do have charts on their site with nearly every bike listed and have taken the time to determine a shock tune for each bike, they also provide full customisation direct from the factory which gets a big thumbs up from me. Out of the box all of their products are still hands down better than anything you can buy from fox, rockshox and cane creek.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    Out of the box all of their products are still hands down better than anything you can buy from fox, rockshox and cane creek.
    Sorry, I don't believe you. It's not personal of course, but with no information, I'm not going to spend that much. Push, Avalanche, even CC, provided information on how their stuff works. For example, Bos makes a trail/XC shock that looks similar to an RP23/CTD type shock. How is this "hands down better" than the equivalent fox shock? Data? Why? What specific features?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Sorry, I don't believe you. It's not personal of course, but with no information, I'm not going to spend that much. Push, Avalanche, even CC, provided information on how their stuff works. For example, Bos makes a trail/XC shock that looks similar to an RP23/CTD type shock. How is this "hands down better" than the equivalent fox shock? Data? Why? What specific features?
    rider feedback counts for more than technical spiel

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by loamranger View Post
    rider feedback counts for more than technical spiel
    Not to me, there is so much variance in setups, bikes, conditions, it's impossible to know if something is a quirk or real. One guy might think the pike is crappy (a few dirt ride demos), and another think it works fantastic (yet other dirt-demo rides). I'm seeing that with the CCDB in fact, some accounts are fantastic, some are so-so/crappy. One guy was only getting 2/3rds travel on a intense spider and complained about the ride, great that we know why that particular review wasn't valid, but there's just too much variance to take on word of mouth. Look at kashima, people thinking they "have to have it", etc. The reason I said what I did is that these compression circuits take up a bit of space. Is that smaller (than their DH and AM ones) Bos shock really that much better than my CTD? Ok, why, how? Maybe the person is riding a bike that is slightly more optimized for one shock vs. another? We need a lot more data than the bos site to make any kind of decision.

    Over the years, I've been burned too many times now by "rider feedback". I don't want to be wowed with the unique names they came up with to describe how it works (motion control, RC3, RC3 Evo, RC3 Evo V2(wtf?), RC4, poplock, mission control, ride-it-control, etc). I want to know HOW those things work, so I can decide whether they will limit my riding and the function. If I know the why, I can much better determine if it will work for me, rather than that one rider on that one bike in that one situation, which could be a fluke.

    Like I said, it's not personal of course. These shocks might be "everything and then some", but I can't take that on the words, need more info.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Oh Cane Creek sucks now, too? I guess I missed the memo; probably busy riding.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    I want to know HOW those things work, so I can decide whether they will limit my riding and the function. If I know the why, I can much better determine if it will work for me, rather than that one rider on that one bike in that one situation, which could be a fluke.

    Like I said, it's not personal of course. These shocks might be "everything and then some", but I can't take that on the words, need more info.
    I totally agree. I was sceptical of Knolly peoples views on AVA, until I spoke to Craig. I knew before the shock arrived it would be 'all that..' . With BOS at the moment, it is all rider feedback, and even while they are onto something they musn't feel the need to / or want to, give away their intellectual property. You are still being very wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Oh Cane Creek sucks now, too? I guess I missed the memo; probably busy riding.
    classic Mrwhlr. CC don't suck, as you know, they make better shocks than Fox or RS. But there has been a number of reliability issues with their air products reported both here on the forum and elsewhere. Reliability is not an issue usually associated with AVA, nor BOS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Oh Cane Creek sucks now, too? I guess I missed the memo; probably busy riding.
    I'm glad cane creek has worked out for you. In the 6 months I have had my db air it's been to the service center twice for a problem nobody knows how to fix, I have had a set of reducing hardware bend and I have had to change du bushings 3 times. I have been riding for quite a while and have never had so many problems with a rear shock. I love how the ccdba rides but the problems have me doubting if I even want to use the replacement shock they are sending me. Problem is nothin else fits my needs and budget. I race enduros often so I need top notch fast customer service in the US that comes from fox or cane creek ect. I don't want the weight of an avy and BOS is too expensive with not enough US support and spare parts. All this has me starting to consider the fox ctd trail adjust but I am scared it will be a huge downgrade. I only weigh about 145 ride weight so I think there is a chance I will get along with the current fox products. I'm thinking this is all something nobody else can really give me the answer on.

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    Don't waste your time with the ctd. I'd personally get a pushed rp23 or avy mod dhx air if the ccdbair is off your list. At your weight custom damping will be a very noticeable improvement. Push and Avalanche have excellent customer service in the US in my experience.

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    The actual circuit is a fairly standard compression valving setup in the suspension world, used in all kinds of shock applications. It's a needle-valve low-speed setup with blow-off and regulates the high speed circuit by setting the amount of oil that can flow. Usually about 3/4 of an inch by 1.5" or so, it's usually identified by a flat-head screwdriver low-speed compression control concentric with a bigger high-speed socket/adjustable wrench interface below. Usually on the bridge/neck from the reservoir to the shock body.


    DB Air Alternatives for Chilly-bos.jpg



    And lastly, from a Showa Mx shock:



    Air shocks like the bos void and x-fusion vector HLR seem to have this valve, which is also present in coil shocks such as the RC4, Push MX tune, all avalanche shocks with high/low compression, avalanche modified DHXs, vector coil HLR, bos stoy, and others.

    I'm not saying this one valve is what makes a good shock, because there are plenty of ways to screw up a shock, but it seems that most manufacturers are resistant to put this kind of valving in an air shock, rather they resort to preset all-or-nothing settings controlled by levers. I want to see the kinds of compression circuits above and adjustments on air shocks and I don't know why we can't get them for the most part.

    This seems to be a primary feature of any coil DH/gravity shock, but we can't get it on all but maybe one or two air shocks?
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    Glad that's all cleared up. The industry just can't keep pace with some of your skill level .
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

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