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  1. #1
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    Chili slippage - Front Ardent 2.4 washed out on loose stones

    Up until now ive been a great fan of the Maxxis Ardent. In the past its been great for roots, rocks, rough and fast terrain.

    But that was on a different bike (less slack geo) and different trails.

    The Chili has a slacker head angle than the last bike so it might be the case that some of the reason for the wheel slipping out is relative my positioning on the bike, i.e. not enough weight over the front wheel (im sure i was pretty central at the time).

    Yesterday the 2.4 Ardent washed out from under me on an s-bend which was hardpack with loose stones on top. I was rolling at medium speed as the corner wasnt that tight. It was one of those very unexpected slippages where you wonder 'how on earth did i crash on that bit of trail!'. It was a bit of a weird one.

    I used to run a 2.35 Panaracer Rampage front and it seemed to hold better in medium speed corners with loose stones etc.

    Any ideas on alternative tyres that hold better on marbles! over hardpack or even any Chili specific riding techniques that prevent front wheel wander?

  2. #2
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    When I switched from my XC bike to the Chili that was one of my biggest problems. With geo this slack, sometimes you really have to get aggressive with weighting the front wheel. Go to Seattle and follow Muttonchops around, you'll learn to corner.

    Regarding tires, I like Trail Kings for slower speed techy stuff and Butchers when the speeds pick up. Currently running a 2.5 Butcher SX front and 2.4 TK rear. Read the Trail King/Hans Dampf thread for more information.

  3. #3
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    yes, slacker front ends require more aggressive riding and positioning (forward plus bike body separation and angulation) and more aggressive tire designs to support it. Tires won't make as much difference in marbles but bike body separation will improve your control of the situation.

  4. #4
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    Maybe it's cause you're going faster now on the chilli?

    What I noticed is like everyone else said the knolly requires a much more aggressive riding position. Almost ridiculously so. At first I rode it like how I used to ride other bikes, that being more balanced but after awhile I found that the more weight I put on the front the better. This was especially difficult to get used to when going downhill because it can be initially scary. Bit hard to describe but it almost feels like you're just riding on the front wheel. Well that's my experience anyway.

    Oh yeah and I have 2.5 maxxis minion super tacky front and rear so I don't find front washing out an issue.

  5. #5
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    Turn quicker, lean less. Works with every brand of tire.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  6. #6
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    Chili slippage - Front Ardent 2.4 washed out on loose stones

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    Turn quicker, lean less. Works with every brand of tire.
    This makes ZERO sense.
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  7. #7
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    Chili slippage - Front Ardent 2.4 washed out on loose stones

    Quote Originally Posted by frenchcr View Post
    Up until now ive been a great fan of the Maxxis Ardent. In the past its been great for roots, rocks, rough and fast terrain.

    But that was on a different bike (less slack geo) and different trails.

    The Chili has a slacker head angle than the last bike so it might be the case that some of the reason for the wheel slipping out is relative my positioning on the bike, i.e. not enough weight over the front wheel (im sure i was pretty central at the time).

    Yesterday the 2.4 Ardent washed out from under me on an s-bend which was hardpack with loose stones on top. I was rolling at medium speed as the corner wasnt that tight. It was one of those very unexpected slippages where you wonder 'how on earth did i crash on that bit of trail!'. It was a bit of a weird one.

    I used to run a 2.35 Panaracer Rampage front and it seemed to hold better in medium speed corners with loose stones etc.

    Any ideas on alternative tyres that hold better on marbles! over hardpack or even any Chili specific riding techniques that prevent front wheel wander?
    Why did you not mention the bike change in your other post about this?

    IME slacker HTAs, longer front centers and shorter stems = lack of front end grip in most conditions.
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  8. #8
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    While the Ardent are good all around tire,
    The Highrollers and Minions never fails me on turns,
    When trails gets tougher, Just stand up and deliver.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    This makes ZERO sense.
    That's because you don't understand.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  10. #10
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    The Ardent's side (cornering) knobs are thin and terribly unsupported compared to the Minion and High Roller: it can not handle aggressive cornering like these other two tires can. It does roll faster though with the more continue centre tread patern...
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  11. #11
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    Make sure your chin is on the same imaginary line as the steering axis or in other words your chin should be above the stem

    I also run a few psi less in front tire regardless of setup

    Stay tuned as I am in the process of fixing this issue...

  12. #12
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    You just described where the Ardent fails, it's horrible at hardpack with loose over top, I've had m y 2 hardest falls on this exact terrain when running an Ardent up front. Best advice here so far is to run a different tyre if you ride this sort of trail composition regularly, your old Rampage is a good choice, as is the HR2. The slacker HTA will play a difference, but in my experience, this is where the Ardent fails badly.

    Quote Originally Posted by frenchcr View Post
    Up until now ive been a great fan of the Maxxis Ardent. In the past its been great for roots, rocks, rough and fast terrain.But that was on a different bike (less slack geo) and different trails.
    Yesterday the 2.4 Ardent washed out from under me on an s-bend which was hardpack with loose stones on top. I was rolling at medium speed as the corner wasnt that tight. It was one of those very unexpected slippages where you wonder 'how on earth did i crash on that bit of trail!'. It was a bit of a weird one.

    I used to run a 2.35 Panaracer Rampage front and it seemed to hold better in medium speed corners with loose stones etc.

    Any ideas on alternative tyres that hold better on marbles! over hardpack or even any Chili specific riding techniques that prevent front wheel wander?
    One day your life will flash before your eyes, will it be worth watching??
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  13. #13
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    As everyone else has stated position over the bike plays a large part in how well your tires grip/hold a line.
    Lean the bike not your body and favour a forward position over the bars. How far forward depends on a lot of factors. Play with it and find what works.

    The other thing that has been stated is that the Ardents suck as a front tire.
    These tires really need you to commit to leaning the bike over hard to get any kind of grip while cornering.

  14. #14
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    Yes, my riding position needs to be slighty forward (chin over the stem), i recognised that at an early stage but may not have held it at the time in question (still getting used to the bike).

    My style of riding since ive started to feel at home on the Chili has been to deliberately pick the hardest lines (with rooty sections, and rock gardens) and then storm through it at speed, as im enjoying the novelty of the chili being able to soak it all up.

    The problem i might encounter with High Rollers and Minions is that the tread isnt so deep. On hardpack, if loose stones are larger than the depth of the knobs then the tyre will be lifted off the ground as it travels over them.

    It would be good to get a tyre with the volume of the ardent but with more centre to side support and deeper tread. This makes me wonder if a good candidate might be the 2.4 Schwalbe Big Betty (with Trailstar compound).
    Last edited by cfrench; 04-27-2013 at 12:30 PM.

  15. #15
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    Chili slippage - Front Ardent 2.4 washed out on loose stones

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    That's because you don't understand.
    Care to explain it then? IME cornering on a bike by turning the bars at any speed above a walk is c##p technique, slow and sketchy.
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  16. #16
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    Chili slippage - Front Ardent 2.4 washed out on loose stones

    Quote Originally Posted by frenchcr View Post
    Yes, my riding position needs to be slighty forward (chin over the stem), i recognised that at an early stage but may not have held it at the time in question (still getting used to the bike).

    My style of riding since ive started to feel at home on the Chili has been to deliberately pick the hardest lines (with rooty sections, and rock gardens) and then storm through it at speed, as im enjoying the novelty of the chili being able to soak it all up.

    The problem i might encounter with High Rollers and Minions is that the tread isnt so deep. On hardpack, if loose stones are larger than the depth of the knobs then the tyre will be lifted off the ground as it travels over them.

    It would be good to get a tyre with the volume of the ardent but with more centre to side support and deeper tread. This makes me wonder if a good candidate might be the 2.4 Schwalbe Big Betty (with Trailstar compound).
    You are never going to find a tire with tread deeper than the size of the rocks. At best, you use a tire with large enough gaps between the knobs to capture the gravel and reduce the skating. If the tread is too tight you might as well be running a slick. The rocks will just roll under the tire.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    You are never going to find a tire with tread deeper than the size of the rocks. At best, you use a tire with large enough gaps between the knobs to capture the gravel and reduce the skating. If the tread is too tight you might as well be running a slick. The rocks will just roll under the tire.
    Thanks shiggy. Ill try again, it would be good to get a tyre with the volume of the ardent but with more centre to side support. The Minions and High Rollers seem to have lower volume than the Ardent but i quite like 'fat tyres'.
    2013 Knolly Endorphin | 2013 Knolly Chilcotin | 2014 Knolly Podium.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    Care to explain it then? IME cornering on a bike by turning the bars at any speed above a walk is c##p technique, slow and sketchy.
    ...."by turning the bars", now I know you don't understand. Go get Twist of the Wrist II and read it. Code is more verbose and caring than I am. Maybe try racing a 400# motorcycle a bit, too.
    Nice KOM, sorry about your penis.

  19. #19
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    Chili slippage - Front Ardent 2.4 washed out on loose stones

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    ...."by turning the bars", now I know you don't understand. Go get Twist of the Wrist II and read it. Code is more verbose and caring than I am. Maybe try racing a 400# motorcycle a bit, too.
    Sorry, no. No desire to ride any moto. Explain yourself here and in relation to bicycles. How do you turn a bicycle quicker while leaning less and without turning the bars?
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  20. #20
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    Chili slippage - Front Ardent 2.4 washed out on loose stones

    Quote Originally Posted by frenchcr View Post
    Thanks shiggy. Ill try again, it would be good to get a tyre with the volume of the ardent but with more centre to side support. The Minions and High Rollers seem to have lower volume than the Ardent but i quite like 'fat tyres'.
    The better question is why the Ardent worked for you before and does not now.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Gillespie View Post
    Currently running a 2.5 Butcher SX front and 2.4 TK rear. Read the Trail King/Hans Dampf thread for more information.
    Thanks for the link. The consensus in that thread for best front tyre seems to be:
    1) Schwalbe Big Betty Trailstar 2.4
    2) Schwalbe Hans Dampf Trailstar 2.35
    and maybe the Continental Baron Black Chili 2.35
    ...with the TK out back.

    I might try the 2.4 Big Betty out front and leave the 2.4 Ardent currently fitted out back (as the Ardent as a rear has been flawless).

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiggy View Post
    The better question is why the Ardent worked for you before and does not now.
    The trails were more natural and the Ardent sheds mud well in loamy/muddy conditions.

    The trails i need the different front tyre for are hardpacked stoney ground with loose stones.

  23. #23
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    I used to have the Ardent in the front and hit a turn hard and it washed. I have been using the Hans Dampf and have had no issues cornering. Great tire.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flucod View Post
    I used to have the Ardent in the front and hit a turn hard and it washed. I have been using the Hans Dampf and have had no issues cornering. Great tire.
    Cheers. Ive just ordered a Big Betty from bike-discount.de for a great price (half RRP).

    Im going to sell the front Ardent on ebay and order a back up front tyre. This will be the Schwalbe Hans Dampf Evo Super Gravity VertStar 2.35" TL-Ready. Between those two seems like i should be good to go.

    As i said before i really cant fault the 2.4 Ardent on the rear, it has been great for climbing traction.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrwhlr View Post
    ...."by turning the bars", now I know you don't understand. Go get Twist of the Wrist II and read it. Code is more verbose and caring than I am. Maybe try racing a 400# motorcycle a bit, too.
    Let me get this straight..
    Your trying to say Counter-Steering works on this type of bicycle?

    I couldn't disagree more
    the mechanics of body steering are what are more applicable to bicycles. And, even that really isn't the same thing

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