Results 1 to 17 of 17
  1. #1
    sapienti sat est
    Reputation: BikeBert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    191

    Caution;  Merge;  Workers Ahead! Chilcotin Linkage - too much bushings friction











    When I removed the shock from my fame I noticed that the linkage moves with a lot of friction so much I have to push/pull [with quite a lot of force] in order to move the rear triangle. It's been like that from the very beginning but I thought it will get better. I'm doing the winter overhaul so I disassembled, cleaned and greased all the bearings in the frame. While assembling everything moves buttery smooth unless I tighten the bolts holding igus bushings. When I tighten them to specified 5.5 Nm it's freaking tight! I don't get it, why use the bearings all around and then 2 bushings that make the linkage work with so much friction. The whole linkage would work almost frictionless if not for those 2 bushings. This begs the question: what is the reason for using bushings? I was about to get a shock needle bearing kit but with so much friction on bushings it would be completely pointless.

    Am I the only one experiencing this problem?
    How's your linkage working?
    Any tips, trick, solutions?
    ____________________
    | Picasa | YouTube | Pinkbike |

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: cfrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    940
    Same here. I have to push/pull with force in order to move the rear triangle and it's been like that from the very beginning too.


    No idea whether its supposed to be like this.
    2013 Knolly Endorphin | 2013 Knolly Chilcotin | 2014 Knolly Podium.
    "think hedgehog not starfish" - delirian

  3. #3
    sapienti sat est
    Reputation: BikeBert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    191
    It just doesn't make sense, why would they add so much bushing friction to the otherwise frictionless bearings performance.
    I hope there's something broken so I can fix it

    Interestingly enough, in my old Endorphin there was way less bushing friction.
    Seems like the bushings in Chilcotin are too tight and/or the metal spacer inside is too short.
    ____________________
    | Picasa | YouTube | Pinkbike |

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 006_007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,160
    Those igus bushings are supposed to have a very tight fit. I was concerned about it as well when I had my Chilcotin all apart - and was comparing it to the first generation Endorphin. I talked with Noel (ok, he talked, I listened) about it, and he assured me it was normal. I believe they use such a tight interface there to help make the rear of the bike feel as flex free as it does? Truth is those parts/pivot point do not more a whole heck of a lot throughout the suspensions travel which is why you dont notice it when its assembled.

  5. #5
    sapienti sat est
    Reputation: BikeBert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    191
    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    [...]Truth is those parts/pivot point do not move a whole heck of a lot throughout the suspensions travel which is why you dont notice it when its assembled.
    Well, they do move enough to notice it and to impede the plushness of the rear suspension.
    My pivots are so tight that even the weight of the rear wheel won't bring the linkage down when I push it up.
    Sure it'll change when I install the shock but I can't get that friction out of my head
    I'd rather have more flex and less friction if you ask me.

    BTW, is it necessary to grease those igus bushings?
    ____________________
    | Picasa | YouTube | Pinkbike |

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    3,196
    I'd be more worried if one side had more wear/looser than the other

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: qbert2000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Posts
    3,203
    the real question is do you notice a lack of rear end suppleness while riding?

  8. #8
    sapienti sat est
    Reputation: BikeBert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    191
    Quote Originally Posted by qbert2000 View Post
    the real question is do you notice a lack of rear end suppleness while riding?
    Well, I think we all know the answer to this question but on the other hand I saw WALMART frames moving with less friction

    Don't get me wrong, I love my Knolly and the way it performs. I'm just curious why introduce so much friction to such a wonderful frame.
    ____________________
    | Picasa | YouTube | Pinkbike |

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 006_007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,160
    Quote Originally Posted by BikeBert View Post
    I'd rather have more flex and less friction if you ask me.

    BTW, is it necessary to grease those igus bushings?
    If you want more flex then I recommend something from walmart........

    As for greasing the bushings, I find that in really dry dusty times of year you may get a slight creaking from them - at that point I just place a drop of chain lube on them (without dismantling) and cycle the suspension - that is the only maintenance they need.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bubba13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    686
    Bikebert, have you checked your bearings? I had both of the large bearings on the rocker freeze up on my Chilcotin. To fix, simply pop the plastic cover off of the bearing and inject grease into bearing race until the old rusty crap is gone. During the same service, the rest of the bearings in the frame looked great.

    For the bushings I add a very small amount of grease to the surface with the linkage apart.

    Another thing you can try: There was some information in a different Knolly thread about backing down the torque slightly on the bushing bolts and adding blue locktite to keep them in place.

    The best way I have found to add blue locktite at the bushings is by not putting it directly on the bolt. Add the locktite to the threads on the horseshoe and put your finger over the hole, then thread the clean bolt into the assembly. That should keep the locktite out of the bushings.

    Good luck.
    Portland Off Road Navagators

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    86
    fwiw the comparable linkage on my endo moves very freely with the shock removed. Would be interesting to compare the parts chil vs endo with calipers to see where the difference lies.

  12. #12
    sapienti sat est
    Reputation: BikeBert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    191
    Quote Originally Posted by bubba13 View Post
    Bikebert, have you checked your bearings? I had both of the large bearings on the rocker freeze up on my Chilcotin. To fix, simply pop the plastic cover off of the bearing and inject grease into bearing race until the old rusty crap is gone. During the same service, the rest of the bearings in the frame looked great.

    For the bushings I add a very small amount of grease to the surface with the linkage apart.

    Another thing you can try: There was some information in a different Knolly thread about backing down the torque slightly on the bushing bolts and adding blue locktite to keep them in place.

    The best way I have found to add blue locktite at the bushings is by not putting it directly on the bolt. Add the locktite to the threads on the horseshoe and put your finger over the hole, then thread the clean bolt into the assembly. That should keep the locktite out of the bushings.

    Good luck.
    Hey bubba [btw, my 2 year-old niece used to call me bubba ]

    Thank you for your tips.
    I am very meticulous when it comes to bike overhaul, cleaning and greasing.
    I've done all this [including blue locktite] in my previous Endorphin and now in Chilcotin.
    As I mentioned, the linkage in old Endo moved freely while in Chilco there is this disturbing friction.
    As for backing down the torque I noticed it can introduce some play on bushings which is worse that friction itself.
    ____________________
    | Picasa | YouTube | Pinkbike |

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: cfrench's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    940

    Why 'too much' friction

    excellent guidance here:

    Knolly Mechanic Tips & Tricks

    BikeBert... remember that the downward force exerted to the frame when riding due to... 1. your body weight, 2. your bikes weight and 3. gravity ...is a lot lot more than the pressure you are imposing with your hands... same for upward pressure / rebound force produced by the shock (ever tried to compress a CCDB Coil with your hands!)...
    2013 Knolly Endorphin | 2013 Knolly Chilcotin | 2014 Knolly Podium.
    "think hedgehog not starfish" - delirian

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: bubba13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    686
    Quote Originally Posted by BikeBert View Post
    Hey bubba [btw, my 2 year-old niece used to call me bubba ]

    Thank you for your tips.
    I am very meticulous when it comes to bike overhaul, cleaning and greasing.
    I've done all this [including blue locktite] in my previous Endorphin and now in Chilcotin.
    As I mentioned, the linkage in old Endo moved freely while in Chilco there is this disturbing friction.
    As for backing down the torque I noticed it can introduce some play on bushings which is worse that friction itself.
    And I thought I was meticulous...

    Similar story on the Bubba nickname here!
    Portland Off Road Navagators

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    39
    Hi All,

    cfrench's point is pretty much bang on. The force a person is able to apply to your bike while in the stand is a fraction of the percentage of what somebody is applying when riding down the trail. This little bit of friction is fine.

    The bushings used on the old Endorphin, new Endorphin, and Chilcotin are designed to work best when under the proper amount of torque. In this case, it means 5.5N.m. I would relate this to a shock bushing. Our bushings which we have been using for years are the same ones that come stock on Fox shocks; and just like on rear shocks, the only way for it to feel not loose, is for it to be tight.

    To make sure the bushings perform to their highest potential, keep the bushings clear of any debris and occasionally open it up to apply a very thin layer of grease. Doing this should provide you with years of problem free enjoyment.

    Cheers!
    Cavan

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: vikb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    5,920
    Your body weight is balanced against the spring in your shock when riding.

    If you hit a big bump at speed there is a lot of energy to deal with so I can see that overcoming any friction in the bushings no problem.

    If you hit small trail features they have to overcome any friction in the suspension system [bushings/bearings/seals/etc..] before the suspension will move in either direction.

    I've never seen a FS MTB designed to have friction in the moving parts because of the effect on small bump sensitivity.

    And just like the OP I would assume my bike had a problem if I found that to be the case on my bike.

    I'm not a suspension guru so I am willing to be educated on the topic.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  17. #17
    sapienti sat est
    Reputation: BikeBert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    191

    Smile Happy New Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by skinnies View Post
    Hi All,

    cfrench's point is pretty much bang on. The force a person is able to apply to your bike while in the stand is a fraction of the percentage of what somebody is applying when riding down the trail. This little bit of friction is fine.

    The bushings used on the old Endorphin, new Endorphin, and Chilcotin are designed to work best when under the proper amount of torque. In this case, it means 5.5N.m. I would relate this to a shock bushing. Our bushings which we have been using for years are the same ones that come stock on Fox shocks; and just like on rear shocks, the only way for it to feel not loose, is for it to be tight.

    To make sure the bushings perform to their highest potential, keep the bushings clear of any debris and occasionally open it up to apply a very thin layer of grease. Doing this should provide you with years of problem free enjoyment.

    Cheers!
    Cavan
    Hey Cavan,

    Thank you for your reply and explanation. I really appreciate your input.
    Sounds like I've been worrying too much

    I've been riding my Chilcotin today first time after overhaul and it felt awesome! Apparently that little bit of friction doesn't matter at all on the trail. I haven't been riding in a while because I was sick and today it was so good I couldn't get enough. I was climbing [literally] every hill I saw on my way and then I was bombing down like there's no tomorrow [well, who knows]. Great frame, great bike, great last day of the year!







    Happy New Year everyone!
    ____________________
    | Picasa | YouTube | Pinkbike |

Similar Threads

  1. PUSH Linkage Bushings
    By PUSHIND in forum Turner
    Replies: 88
    Last Post: 2 Weeks Ago, 10:03 AM
  2. Chilcotin missing Linkage bolt- size/spec?
    By sawdust77 in forum Knolly
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 07-02-2012, 07:32 PM
  3. XTR Shadow Plus increase in friction?
    By westin in forum Drivetrain - shifters, derailleurs, cranks
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-25-2012, 12:33 PM
  4. friction
    By 53119 in forum Off Camber (off topic)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-13-2012, 09:32 AM
  5. Friction paste?
    By will8250 in forum California - Norcal
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-16-2011, 11:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •