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  1. #1
    Knomer
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    Chilcotin: The inevitable DB-air setup thread

    Let's get this going. This is a crazy adjustable shock, and everyone will have their own preferences based on terrain, etc. This is a good starting point based on our suspension design...


    HSC: 1/2 turn from fully open (the 4x4 suspension design provides inherent bottom out control, so no need to over-damp this setting)

    LSC: 15 clicks from fully closed (the 4x4 suspension design is FULLY ACTIVE, so a couple extra clicks from middle(12) keep the pedalling smooth and controlled)

    HSR: 1.5 turns from fully open (rider preference prevails on this one, depending on how fast you ride and how big the hits are)

    LSR: 12 clicks from fully closed (this is the median setting and keeps bumpy/technical climbing from feeling too springy)

    Cheers.
    Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  2. #2
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    Cool, thx.

    AM riding.... 30% sag?

  3. #3
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    Wow, talk about ironic. I just emailed Malcolm this morning about their suggested settings since it's not showing up on their site yet.
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  4. #4
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    Dusty thanks!

    Question-
    Why not do everything from open? Since everyone discusses in this manner and even cane creek has adopted the "from open" setting. This would provide consistency, as there are variances with respect to the total clicks and turns so a common start point would be ideal.

    Just a suggestion...

  5. #5
    Knomer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Dusty thanks!

    Question-
    Why not do everything from open? Since everyone discusses in this manner and even cane creek has adopted the "from open" setting. This would provide consistency, as there are variances with respect to the total clicks and turns so a common start point would be ideal.

    Just a suggestion...
    Weird. I literally took the language straight from their DBcoil base settings sheet, which must be a little dated I guess? Oh well. I agree, uniformity would help everyone.
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  6. #6
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    For what it's worth, I just heard back form Malcolm and he sent me exactly what Dusty posted, word for word.

    Dusty, are these settings what you are running, or have you tweaked them a bit to suit you personally? You told me the other day you got to that "I thought I had a flat tire feeling but it was just my shock tracking well" point on yours, and that's typically pretty indicative that you've got the settings pretty damn close to dialed.
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  7. #7
    Knomer
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    For what it's worth, I just heard back form Malcolm and he sent me exactly what Dusty posted, word for word.

    Dusty, are these settings what you are running, or have you tweaked them a bit to suit you personally? You told me the other day you got to that "I thought I had a flat tire feeling but it was just my shock tracking well" point on yours, and that's typically pretty indicative that you've got the settings pretty damn close to dialed.
    Ya, I sent my settings to Malcolm right after I posted them here, they will be a good starting point for anyone, since they are fairly neutral yet specific to our suspension design.

    I've been tweaking this shock for the better part of a month, and I let G-Air borrow it for a week for a 3rd opinion(Noel was the first opinion). These settings are the amalgamation of all this input.
    Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  8. #8
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    Ah, cool to know. Be interesting when the production batch hits here soon and we really get some discussion going on everyone's settings/findings.
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  9. #9
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    the way things are this thread could be postponed at least two months...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by madafaka View Post
    the way things are this thread could be postponed at least two months...
    Thats perfect - lets me finish up what has been an amazing ski season

  11. #11
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    DB Coil Settings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    Weird. I literally took the language straight from their DBcoil base settings sheet, which must be a little dated I guess? Oh well. I agree, uniformity would help everyone.
    Language aside, would these DB Air base settings be an accurate starting point if transposed over to the DB Coil? Or do these numbers pertain specifically to the Air model?

  12. #12
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    Odd thing is last year or so Malcolm told me to do everything from wide open, especially the low speed adjustments. He said from wide open, they are fully closed at 24 clicks, but due to the way they are made (no idea on specifics here), they can have 2 or 3 extra clicks. So from that, if you wanted to open it say 15 clicks, you might really only be on 12 or 13.

    After talking to him, I just figured out what my settings where and recorded everything from wide open.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chromagftw View Post
    Language aside, would these DB Air base settings be an accurate starting point if transposed over to the DB Coil? Or do these numbers pertain specifically to the Air model?
    In short, no.

    I found the air and coil to have quite different settings. The most noticeable difference was with the HSC. With the air I ran very little HSC. With the coil I was right in the middle of the adjustment.

    Maybe Dusty can chime in. He has quite a bit of time on both shocks.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Odd thing is last year or so Malcolm told me to do everything from wide open, especially the low speed adjustments. He said from wide open, they are fully closed at 24 clicks, but due to the way they are made (no idea on specifics here), they can have 2 or 3 extra clicks. So from that, if you wanted to open it say 15 clicks, you might really only be on 12 or 13.

    After talking to him, I just figured out what my settings where and recorded everything from wide open.
    I picked up a DBair for my endo and noticed the same thing. The manual states that there are 25 clicks of LSR and LSC and I've found that number to be pretty accurate for my shock. The HSR seems to have almost an extra full turn (from the 4 that is stated in the manual).

    I know this is the Chili thread but here are my settings for an older endo in case other endo owner's pick up a DBair.

    LSC: 9 clicks from full open
    LSR: 19 clicks from full open
    HSC: 1/2 turn from full open
    HSR: 3.5 turns from full open

    Compression settings are similar to the posted Chili #'s but I seem to prefer slower rebound. Still dialing it in so the #'s might change a little.

  15. #15
    Greystoke
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    Dusty how much air are you running & what is your ride weight?

  16. #16
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    That is a ton of HSR? Of the 4 CCDBs we have on our bikes (only one is DB air) I dont think any of them is past 1.5 turns (3 Knollys and 1 Turner). Different strokes for different folks I guess!

    Buzz

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    That is a ton of HSR? Of the 4 CCDBs we have on our bikes (only one is DB air) I dont think any of them is past 1.5 turns (3 Knollys and 1 Turner). Different strokes for different folks I guess!

    Buzz
    I agree - though the CCDB coil on my Podium has about 2 turns from open and that bike sticks to the ground.

    That's the thing about CCDB so many choices!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by geo025 View Post
    Dusty how much air are you running & what is your ride weight?
    I weigh 215 RTR and ride 150psi.
    Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    That is a ton of HSR? Of the 4 CCDBs we have on our bikes (only one is DB air) I dont think any of them is past 1.5 turns (3 Knollys and 1 Turner). Different strokes for different folks I guess!

    Buzz
    Yeah I was surprised where it ended up too. I may slowly back it off, but probably not too much. Right now it feels pretty good. The downhills I ride are pretty rocky and fast and the slower rebound helps the bucking. It will be interesting to see where others land on their adjustments. BTW, I'm running about 38-40% sag.

  20. #20
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    Sorry if i missed it - has anyone posted anything about how the DB air actually feels on the bike? I heard a comment y'day that you can still tell that its an air shock (vs a coil).

    I have never heard that 'flat tire' comment before...sh1t...every time i get that feeling...i adjust something because i dont like it

    Apart from all the settings - i would dig to hear some personal feedback.

    thanks dudes
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muttonchops View Post
    Sorry if i missed it - has anyone posted anything about how the DB air actually feels on the bike? I heard a comment y'day that you can still tell that its an air shock (vs a coil).

    I have never heard that 'flat tire' comment before...sh1t...every time i get that feeling...i adjust something because i dont like it

    Apart from all the settings - i would dig to hear some personal feedback.

    thanks dudes
    My initial impressions are good but I'm hesitant to say anything definitive because I like a lot of ride time before giving detailed feedback. Plus my shock is probably still breaking in. Also, keep in mind this is on an Endo so Chili and Delirium owners may have a different experience.

    You can get the DBair to have that "flat tire" feeling which some people really like, but the beauty of the shock is that you can also dial that out if you want a different feel.

    IME, it's the best air shock I've ever tried (this includes a Pushed Monarch RT-AM and Xfusion Vector Air HLR). But, a lot of this comes down to personal preference so ymmv.

    The DBair is the closest thing I've felt to coil performance (Avalanche Chubie as a my standard of reference). The initial part of the stroke is very soft and once on the trail feels very plush. IME, the DBair feels more lively while leveling and controlling the terrain whereas the Avy coil feels more composed and controlled moving through its stroke. I chalk this up to differing suspension philosophies than performance deficiencies on the part of either shock. Imho, coil still rules but DBair is so close that it may be splitting hairs at this point. Haven't had the chance to test the DBair on extended dh runs though. Most of my riding terrain is fast ups and downs. Hope this helps.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by beefmagic View Post
    Yeah I was surprised where it ended up too. I may slowly back it off, but probably not too much. Right now it feels pretty good. The downhills I ride are pretty rocky and fast and the slower rebound helps the bucking. It will be interesting to see where others land on their adjustments. BTW, I'm running about 38-40% sag.
    40% sag? That seems like too much for a bike with such a low BB.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    40% sag? That seems like too much for a bike with such a low BB.
    I have mine at 35% and HSC just about off completely but a 1/4 to 1/2 turn and haven't blown through the travel yet. 40% might not be too much.

    I hear you though. I am having a hard time thinking about riding that at 40% myself, too.

  24. #24
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    I actually think the old endo BB is not that low. I prefer low BB's so 40% puts it at a height that I really like. One of the reasons I got the DBair was that I read that they CCDB's work well with lots of sag.

  25. #25
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    As eager as I am to get some time on the DB Air and the Chilcotin whenever the hell it gets here, I can't quite get my head around how the thing will climb well, especially in the tech, with so much sag. It seems like if I'm starting with 35% on level ground the thing is going to have to be in the neighborhood of 50%+ if I'm on a steep climb. If that's true I better make sure the MRP 2x is built to take a shitton of abuse because I'll be beating the piss out of it on ledge ups.

    Anyways, mostly just thinking out loud here, anyone have any thoughts on this?
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

  26. #26
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    There's a pretty lengthy DBair thread over on the Ibis forum.

  27. #27
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    A new article posted over at Sicklines:

    linky
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    A new article posted over at Sicklines:

    linky
    Thanks for the link. I didn't realize there are included internal volume adjust spacers. I wonder if the shocks will ship with none installed?

    Also, Dusty, can you comment on the advantages/disadvantages of using the spacers, baced on terrain and rider weight?

  29. #29
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    Well the spacers lower the air volume adding progressiveness to the shock. From what I've read on this thread and the Ibis thread it sounds like progressiveness is the last thing this shock needs. It will be interesting to see how this shock does on other bikes. Pretty much every report I've read has folks complaining about how they can't get all the travel even with the HSC all the way out. It sounds like the volume spacers and even the HSC adjuster are a waste.

    How's that for E-speculation!!!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rippling over canyons View Post
    Thanks for the link. I didn't realize there are included internal volume adjust spacers. I wonder if the shocks will ship with none installed?

    Also, Dusty, can you comment on the advantages/disadvantages of using the spacers, baced on terrain and rider weight?
    Mine came uninstalled in a bag with shock.

  31. #31
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    I wonder if the frames coming with DB Air's will come with the little adjuster tool and the spacers? I'm guessing probably not, that's just for aftermarket?
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    I wonder if the frames coming with DB Air's will come with the little adjuster tool and the spacers? I'm guessing probably not, that's just for aftermarket?
    Surely, the tool will. Dunno about the spacers. Dont spacers make shock more progressive ramping it up at end stroke? If so, I don't see the need for them on this shock.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyN View Post
    There's a pretty lengthy DBair thread over on the Ibis forum.
    Interesting reading though the suspension designs are so different that I'm guessing a lot of the discussion regarding the ride characteristics/performance are irrelevant. Most interesting was the mention of how people are measuring sag, seems that there is a bit of room from bottom out on some sizes that I wondering if people are factoring into their measurements. It looks like there will be less on our size shock(60mm from bottom of blue seal to end of shaft but stroke is only 57mm) but even so if people are taking into account those extra 3mm that still makes a pretty substantial difference in sag calculations. Someone with sag at 20mm into the stroke might be thinking they are at 33% sag when they are actually at a bit over 35%. Not a huge difference but might be blowing up some of the sag levels being reported.
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

  34. #34
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    Perhaps they are running with too much air pressure (ie not enough sag)? Sounds like 40% sag might not be out of the question for this shock? My wife has only ridden hers around the local park, so no chance to really try the shock. She said it does feel as plush as the CCDB coil on her Highline (the DB Air is on a Podium), but I think that might be because there was a bit too much air in it AND it probably needs some break in time.


    Buzz

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    Dont spacers make shock more progressive ramping it up at end stroke? If so, I don't see the need for them on this shock.
    Bender hucks.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    Interesting reading though the suspension designs are so different that I'm guessing a lot of the discussion regarding the ride characteristics/performance are irrelevant.
    Idk. The Ibis HD apparently does not play well with the CCDB since it's designed around a progressive air spring. That would have led me to think that the DBair would be a perfect match... yet excessive sag and little to no HSC is required to approach full travel.

    Don't get me wrong, I think the DBair has huge potential, and is on my short list for the Chilcotin. Right now it just seems to be overdamped in HSC, or the air spring curve needs tweaking, or both.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    How's that for E-speculation!!!
    Pretty damn accurate.

    I honestly don't know if the tool will come in the box. I'll ask.
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  38. #38
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    Settings-easy reference

    Chilcotin: The inevitable DB-air setup thread-knolly-chilcotin-2012-dbair-0.5-10-1.5-13-8.png

  39. #39
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    Nice. Thanks FNG.

    Have you gotten any good rides on yours yet?
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  40. #40
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    I'm with Catch22.....40% sag sounds like an awful lot if you ask me!

    Seems like climbing would be a biotch and any pedaling through technical terrain would too. I know before I shimmed my RP23, I was having a ton of issues with that.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Nice. Thanks FNG.

    Have you gotten any good rides on yours yet?
    A few. It is a beotch to set up. Especially for someone as impatient as me. Granted, it is a helluva lot better than the platform rp23. I have my LSC and HSC all the way off and still don't use most of the travel at 35% sag.
    I am going to try the 40% sag and see. My honest opinion is I wished this shock ran the way it does on this bike with the dials moved close to half open. But not getting plush travel with the LSC and HSC off completely, not much more room to "adjust" except the sag and hoping maybe it needs to "break in" more.

    Interesting though, my LSR knob started turning in both directions endlessly and I called Cane Creek. They directed me to BTI and while I was in Santa Fe, NM today, I dropped it off to get warrantied. I told the tech what was going on and how it rode and he said he would talk to Malcolm and see if there were any adjustments he could do to it internally to make it more specific to the Chilcotin. I will let you guys know if he does anything different when I get it back.

  42. #42
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    Hmmm, interesting. Hope they can straighten you out warranty wise, and you can get it tuned more to your liking.

    Glad I have my older CCDB coil as backup right now though...
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    I have my LSC and HSC all the way off and still don't use most of the travel at 35% sag.
    I am going to try the 40% sag and see. My honest opinion is I wished this shock ran the way it does on this bike with the dials moved close to half open. But not getting plush travel with the LSC and HSC off completely, not much more room to "adjust" except the sag
    Well said.

  44. #44
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    I ordered my Chili with DBair based on Knoel using the term "game changer" as I recall yet the reviews here are average at best. I am very interested to see how it feels.

  45. #45
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    For the record, I really like the performance of the DBair on my endo. Not sure how this will translate to the chili but I can't imagine it will be that much different. I like it better than every shock I've tried (with the exception of the Avy barely edging it out).

    Like FNG mentioned, I wish the adjustments had more range and full travel was a little easier to achieve. (sorry about your warranty issues!) 40% is a big percentage to wrap my head around on paper but on the bike it performs great, ime. The quality of suspension never makes me feel like I'm missing any travel. I've not hit any drops over 3 feet on it yet so perhaps the last bit or travel is reserved for large hits. If so, I'm ok with that. The jury is still out concerning long term durability but so far I'm impressed.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    I weigh 215 RTR and ride 150psi.
    Thanks I'm at 220lbs rtr .
    I'm starting to wonder if this shock is better suited to the heavier rider ?

  47. #47
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    Oh you don't say? Interesting
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  48. #48
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    Fanning the flames of e-speculation

    Posted on the Intense forum

    "I heard today through the grapevine from a source I trust that there may be some issues with the CCDB Air from the factory that are causing the end stroke travel issues. Apparently more information is forthcoming and I will report back when I have some solid data. Cane Creek will NOT respond to any of my requests for information at the moment. Maybe they are busy...."

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyN View Post
    Posted on the Intense forum

    "I heard today through the grapevine from a source I trust that there may be some issues with the CCDB Air from the factory that are causing the end stroke travel issues. Apparently more information is forthcoming and I will report back when I have some solid data. Cane Creek will NOT respond to any of my requests for information at the moment. Maybe they are busy...."
    Well that is interesting.
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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyN View Post
    Posted on the Intense forum

    "I heard today through the grapevine from a source I trust that there may be some issues with the CCDB Air from the factory that are causing the end stroke travel issues. Apparently more information is forthcoming and I will report back when I have some solid data. Cane Creek will NOT respond to any of my requests for information at the moment. Maybe they are busy...."
    Ugh!

    Breath deep, don't panic...

    What size is the shock again? Anyone know what size the shock spacers are? I might have a shock I can use as backup.

  51. #51
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    Shock size is 7.875 x 2.25. I can't remember the spacers. When I can get to my computer or home i will look for you. I know they are 6mm hardware though.
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    OK just dug it up on my phone. Shock hardware is 41.2 x M6 and 22 x M6. Hope that helps.

    I think i have some 22 x M6 fox hardware if you need it off my old RFX. Pretty sure turner used 22.

    Lmk if you do.
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  53. #53
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    Are you sure it is 6mm? Did they change it for the Chilcotins? Every other Knolly has always been
    8 x 22mm and 8 x 44mm hardware.

    Buzz

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    That's what I was told by Malcolm at CC.
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  55. #55
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    Turner uses 21.85 x M6. There is also a 22.2 out there as well!

  56. #56
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    6mm is correct. I will sadly miss the 8mm on my Endorphin
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

  57. #57
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    So then does Cane Creek has it wrong, I assume?
    Look at the mounting dimensions for the double barrels for the 2012 Chilcotin (for which the CCDB/Air is also an OEM shock).

  58. #58
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    Mistakes happen....

    When you are selecting the year of Chilco, click on 2011. The dimensions are correct on that page. It is NOT a 8.5 x 2.5.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyN View Post
    Posted on the Intense forum

    "I heard today through the grapevine from a source I trust that there may be some issues with the CCDB Air from the factory that are causing the end stroke travel issues. Apparently more information is forthcoming and I will report back when I have some solid data. Cane Creek will NOT respond to any of my requests for information at the moment. Maybe they are busy...."
    I stopped reading after "heard - source - grapevine - trust".
    Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by tp806 View Post
    So then does Cane Creek has it wrong, I assume?
    Look at the mounting dimensions for the double barrels for the 2012 Chilcotin (for which the CCDB/Air is also an OEM shock).
    This is wrong. I will email Malcolm.
    Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

  61. #61
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    I thought so Dusty.
    We should leave our 9-5 work habits out of the weekend, especially when bike riding/reading, but the QA engineer in me, just couldn't let it go...

  62. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    I stopped reading after "heard - source - grapevine - trust".
    Really? You can believe what you want but the issues with the DB air are real and not imagination. Otherwise you wouldn't have a thread in nearly every manufacturers forum regarding the inability to access full travel regardless of frame design.

    I posted up this information in the Intense forum and its not based on my assumptions, but it came straight from a respected suspension tuner on the west coast. This is not about dragging Cane Creek through the mud but all about getting to the bottom of the issues at hand, nothing more.

  63. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    This is wrong. I will email Malcolm.
    dusty, any chance to get him to implement the settings of all the other knolly frames on their site too? would be great

  64. #64
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    This just showed up today...

    Yesterday starts tomorrow, tomorrow starts today, and the problem seems to be we're picking up the pieces on the ricochet

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    I wonder if the frames coming with DB Air's will come with the little adjuster tool and the spacers? I'm guessing probably not, that's just for aftermarket?
    For 2012 models, the Double Barrel damper adjuster tool is supposed to be included in the package:

    Cane Creek Double Barrel Coil Rear Shock 2012 - BMTBonline.com

  66. #66
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    FYI, the shock does come with the adjustment tool. It's kind of big and it doubles as a bottle opener.

    I setup the shock as per the Setup thread and you guys got it perfect. Slowed both rebounds by one click from the default Chilcotin setup and the shock feels great. Have three rides on the shock now.
    First ride was just a few miles to get used to it, a few < 3' drops just to check out compression.
    Second ride was on rocks/roots all slow (<15 mph) Adjusted rebounds by one click.
    Third ride was same as second except longer and some faster root sections and some berms.

    The shock feels more like a coil than any airshock I've ridden. It has made the Chili feel more like the Endo it replaced. Supple and compliant over the chattery stuff and bottomless feeling on g-outs and landings.

    There has been some talk about the shock not achieving full travel. I haven't got the travel indicator ring all the way to top, but have come very close. It does seem like the shock ramps up at the end, but it hasn't been harsh or even felt like it bottomed yet.

    In a word, the shock is "composed".
    Yesterday starts tomorrow, tomorrow starts today, and the problem seems to be we're picking up the pieces on the ricochet

  67. #67
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    First ride on the Chilly+CCDBA went very well. Amazingly plush for an air shock yet way more composed like a coil. My initial setup was on the soft side with about 40% sag and a little over 100 PSI. It gobbled up hits and felt bottomless. I didn't anything huge but I did hit some 2 or 3' to flat things and some really steep rollers. Definitely using all my travel but no harsh bottom out. I pumped it up to about 130 and that put me around 33% sag. The shock still felt good and it peddled better but I was getting bucked. I dropped it to about 115 PSI and about 37% sag and that seemed to be the sweetspot. It peddled better and still handled the hits real well.

    As far as the adjustments go I added 1 turn of LSC and verified that HSC was all the way out. I plan on playing around with it on today's ride to get it fully dialed in. My only complaint so far would be that it'd be nice to have more HSC adjustment. Having it backed all the way really leaves me w/o any HSC adjustment.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	knolly-chilcotin-2012-dbair-0.5-10-1.5-13-8.png 
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    Are all these settings going from fully open or from fully closed? I'm a little confuse on the settings from the first post giving half the settings from fully open and the other half from fully close.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    First ride on the Chilly+CCDBA went very well. Amazingly plush for an air shock yet way more composed like a coil. My initial setup was on the soft side with about 40% sag and a little over 100 PSI. It gobbled up hits and felt bottomless. I didn't anything huge but I did hit some 2 or 3' to flat things and some really steep rollers. Definitely using all my travel but no harsh bottom out. I pumped it up to about 130 and that put me around 33% sag. The shock still felt good and it peddled better but I was getting bucked. I dropped it to about 115 PSI and about 37% sag and that seemed to be the sweetspot. It peddled better and still handled the hits real well.

    As far as the adjustments go I added 1 turn of LSC and verified that HSC was all the way out. I plan on playing around with it on today's ride to get it fully dialed in. My only complaint so far would be that it'd be nice to have more HSC adjustment. Having it backed all the way really leaves me w/o any HSC adjustment.
    Hi Wookyak:

    Trust me on this - you don't want the HSC backed all the way out. The reports that you're seeing online about this are because people are not setting up their shocks properly (i.e. if you're reading this on NSMB). I'm working on a tuning article right now for this shock because a lot of people think that the shock has too much HSC, when in fact, they are blowing through the travel and are being saved by harsh bottom out due to the air spring curve and bumper (which work very, very well even without any HSC).

    I made the exact same mistake when I started tuning the CCDB-Air, so I know exactly where you're coming from.

    Quick set up tips:

    -Get sag roughly set - start around 33 or 35% range. Get the bike's "balance" (i.e. riding level) feeling correct to to help determine the right amount of sag.
    -For HSC: find a small jump - maybe 2 - 4 feet. Hit it with the HSC fully open: you'll feel like the frame is lacking travel. Then, hit it again with the HSC fully closed: the frame will feel like it can't use all of it's travel. Notice how these two effects sound similar but feel different. Now, go back to almost fully open, hit the jump again, then back to almost fully closed. Keep going back and forth towards the middle until you end up with the correct HSC setting. It will now become obvious where the HSC should be set. You may have to adjust air spring pressure a bit here as well, but do one adjustment at a time.

    I'll get a most serious tuning article up shortly but this should provide you with a good start.

    Cheers!
    Noel Buckley
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by knollybikes.com View Post
    Hi Wookyak:

    Trust me on this - you don't want the HSC backed all the way out. The reports that you're seeing online about this are because people are not setting up their shocks properly (i.e. if you're reading this on NSMB). I'm working on a tuning article right now for this shock because a lot of people think that the shock has too much HSC, when in fact, they are blowing through the travel and are being saved by harsh bottom out due to the air spring curve and bumper (which work very, very well even without any HSC).

    I made the exact same mistake when I started tuning the CCDB-Air, so I know exactly where you're coming from.

    Quick set up tips:

    -Get sag roughly set - start around 33 or 35% range. Get the bike's "balance" (i.e. riding level) feeling correct to to help determine the right amount of sag.
    -For HSC: find a small jump - maybe 2 - 4 feet. Hit it with the HSC fully open: you'll feel like the frame is lacking travel. Then, hit it again with the HSC fully closed: the frame will feel like it can't use all of it's travel. Notice how these two effects sound similar but feel different. Now, go back to almost fully open, hit the jump again, then back to almost fully closed. Keep going back and forth towards the middle until you end up with the correct HSC setting. It will now become obvious where the HSC should be set. You may have to adjust air spring pressure a bit here as well, but do one adjustment at a time.

    I'll get a most serious tuning article up shortly but this should provide you with a good start.

    Cheers!
    Good stuff Noel, I'll be looking forward to the writeup you're working on. All the complaints I've been reading got me concerned enough to order hardware to fit my old Monarch on the Chilcotin as well but it sounds like the concerns may not be necessary. Just want to be prepared with a backup plan in case the DBAir had issues whenever the frame gets here. Hope to catch you down south in a couple weeks!
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by knollybikes.com View Post
    Hi Wookyak:

    Trust me on this - you don't want the HSC backed all the way out. The reports that you're seeing online about this are because people are not setting up their shocks properly (i.e. if you're reading this on NSMB). I'm working on a tuning article right now for this shock because a lot of people think that the shock has too much HSC, when in fact, they are blowing through the travel and are being saved by harsh bottom out due to the air spring curve and bumper (which work very, very well even without any HSC).

    I made the exact same mistake when I started tuning the CCDB-Air, so I know exactly where you're coming from.

    Quick set up tips:

    -Get sag roughly set - start around 33 or 35% range. Get the bike's "balance" (i.e. riding level) feeling correct to to help determine the right amount of sag.
    -For HSC: find a small jump - maybe 2 - 4 feet. Hit it with the HSC fully open: you'll feel like the frame is lacking travel. Then, hit it again with the HSC fully closed: the frame will feel like it can't use all of it's travel. Notice how these two effects sound similar but feel different. Now, go back to almost fully open, hit the jump again, then back to almost fully closed. Keep going back and forth towards the middle until you end up with the correct HSC setting. It will now become obvious where the HSC should be set. You may have to adjust air spring pressure a bit here as well, but do one adjustment at a time.

    I'll get a most serious tuning article up shortly but this should provide you with a good start.

    Cheers!
    Interesting...

    My HSC dial was all the way off shipped. I pretty much left the dials as they were for last night's ride because I didn't have time to mess with them. I did play with the air pressure a bit. I found 30% sag was bucking me around like crazy. I ended up letting out a bunch of air which (unknowingly) put me at 50% sag. It actually rode really well but it did feel very sluggish when pedaling non-tech stuff.

    On today's ride I had time to mess with things. After some trial and error I ended up running about 40% sag (120 psi@155lb. body weight) today with all the dials left at stock except HSC off and LSC backed off a couple of clicks. It pedaled way better and still gobbled up the small and medium hits like they were nothing. I did hit a good 5' drop to semi-flat at speed and it did blow through most of its travel but it didn't bottom out harshly or anything. The ring showed there was about 1/2" of unused stroke after that drop.

    Overall I love how the shock feels so far. Better than pretty much anything I've ridden. I just need to get the sag and compressions settings better dialed. I'll definitely add in some HSC and see where that gets me.

  72. #72
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    I have been running the shock as stock - FWIW we ride fairly slow techy rocky and rooty terrain - it seems to get hung up occasionally on the square edged stuff and requires more body English than I expected to get over some sections...I am a noob with a DB never mind DBair any suggestions on what settings I should fiddle with first? Interestingly coming down the bike is a plow and I am taking more direct lines than I every have...

  73. #73
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    So now that you guys have had a few rides on it does anyone wish they would have gotten the coil? I'm up in the air on the endo frame!

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magsrgod View Post
    So now that you guys have had a few rides on it does anyone wish they would have gotten the coil? I'm up in the air on the endo frame!
    Nope! It feels like the frame was designed around the shock. The only thing I have not tested is extended DH runs. I'll get those in 2 weeks.

  75. #75
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    It's really pretty damn amazing. All I've done is add 2 clicks of LSC from the stock settings, and it pedals well and bumps disappear.

    I've had a DB coil on a few frames, so I know what that shock can do, and can't see justifying the extra weight of the coil on a trail bike. On a DH sled, sure maybe go coil. But even then, this feels so good that would be a hard choice, if say, one was to buy a Podium.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    It's really pretty damn amazing. All I've done is add 2 clicks of LSC from the stock settings, and it pedals well and bumps disappear.

    I've had a DB coil on a few frames, so I know what that shock can do, and can't see justifying the extra weight of the coil on a trail bike. On a DH sled, sure maybe go coil. But even then, this feels so good that would be a hard choice, if say, one was to buy a Podium.
    Good to hear!

    Would the DB air work well on the Podium since it is designed for a coil linear shock?

  77. #77
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    I'm not sure, seems like I recall some time ago that Noel said the DB Air would work great on the Podium, but the coil would be the best option to get the best performance out of the frame.

    BUT DON'T QUOTE ME ON THAT, LOL. I just seem to recall him posting something to that effect. I don't know if that's a case of the DB Air get's you 95% performance and the coil gets you 100%, or what.
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  78. #78
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    My wife has one on her Podium, and we have only taken it out a couple of times, but so far so good!

    Buzz

  79. #79
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    Awesome thats what I wanted to hear! I have a CCDB on my Podium, had one on my Endo and also had one on a Gen 1 Nomad. It made a lights out difference on both the Endo and the Nomad. I've never tried anything else on the Podium though I do have a Vivid 4.1 sitting in a box just waiting for Push to get the Team issue back in stock!

    A new Endo with an Air sounds good to me!

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Question for those who have ridden a CCDB and the DBair: are the settings of the shock (LSC/LSR/HSR/HSC) basically the same from CCDB and DBair other than the spring and spring type?

    I ride an AM bike that I plan on using for DH stuff too, but it's not like I'm sending 10 footers or anything anyway, so I'm thinking of lightening up the bike a bit next year.
    The function is the same, but you will probably end up with difference settings between the two.

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
    Question for those who have ridden a CCDB and the DBair: are the settings of the shock (LSC/LSR/HSR/HSC) basically the same from CCDB and DBair other than the spring and spring type?
    Ive both, CCDB and DB Air and I`ve ridden quite a lot with them in Chili. They are different. Adjustments naturally works in same way, but adjustment ranges with DB Air is huge compared to CCDB - even with same pressure vs. one coil. The biggest difference is LSC, then LSR - there is much more internal compression with CCDB, even in the end of range nearly too much. That`s not a problem with DB Air. This means that similar feeling between those two requires different settings in both.

    My CCDB is tuned one with 350lbs Ti-spring -DB Air is from stock. Ive used some other shocks in Chili too, inc. BOS Vip`r (without and with tuning), RP23 (without and with tuning), Vivid Air etc. and Ive to say that with DB Air adjustments you can mimic behaviour of whatever other shock, inc. feeling of CCDB.

  82. #82
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    Just wondering how everyone is coming along with the DB Air's, thoughts, etc. Loving mine so far, I ran it stock for a few weeks and then added 2 clicks of LSC, it seemed to be wallowing a bit and getting hung up on stuff more than it should have. The 2 clicks helped in that regard.

    Still feels like it sinks a bit more into the travel than I'd like, so I might add a few more clicks LSC just to see what happens. Pretty stoked on it overall.

    I will say I'm not really keen on Cane Creek's 7 piece reducer system. One of the little o-ring washers that sits right next to the shock bushing keeps working it self loose and out of place, and almost works itself onto the reducer itself. Pretty annoying b/c it's creates a bit of play when it does it. I've got two sets of reducer hardware and it does it on both. Really wish CC would just go with a 3 piece reducer system like Fox or Rock Shox.
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    I just switched my CC reducers for the Fox 3 piece ones... they fit much better.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by gretch View Post
    I just switched my CC reducers for the Fox 3 piece ones... they fit much better.
    They fit ok? The end of the DB's with the adjustments has a small area for a reducer to sit against. My Rock Shox hardware wouldn't fit there. If the Fox does then that's what I need to go find.
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  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    They fit ok? The end of the DB's with the adjustments has a small area for a reducer to sit against. My Rock Shox hardware wouldn't fit there. If the Fox does then that's what I need to go find.
    I had play with the CC reducers and the Fox ones eliminated this.... I already had the Fox hardware sitting around from my previous shock, so I gave it a try and voila, perfect...

  86. #86
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    Yup, when I stick the reducer pivot axle through the shock bushing, there is a tad bit of play.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  87. #87
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    I am willing and ready, but havent been convinced yet to convert to the CCDB Air. I read the thread posts and thanks for all the feedback.Its really interesting.

    I feel as though injuries and various setbacks have prevented me getting up to full speed this year (so far)...so i havent really noticed the RP23 holding me back yet. Hoping that will change soon.

    i just learnt that a friend received his Chilly with the CCDB Air - so its time to plan a ride together.
    I support EMBA

  88. #88
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    I was incorrect in my earlier post. The RS/Fox hardware won't fit on the OLD Double Barrels. They do not have an area trimmed out to fit the larger diameter of those hardware pieces that hold the o-ring.

    The DB Air on the Chili has this area trimmed away so the RS/Fox hardware will fit. Sorry for the confusion, I just found this out while trying to sort out my issue. The stupid rubber o-ring worked it's way loose again on today's ride, and I've got crazy play again.
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  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by knollybikes.com View Post
    I'll get a most serious tuning article up shortly but this should provide you with a good start.

    Cheers!
    Hey Noel/Dusty,

    Has anything else come of the tuning article that was in the works? Now that I've got mine in hand I'm eager to read more about your thoughts on DB Air setup.
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

  90. #90
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    Just got my Chili with a DB Air - does anyone know if the shock comes with the recommended base tune pre-set?

  91. #91
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    I ordered a set of RS hardware last night for the longer set of reducers. I had the nicer fox 3 piece set up or the short bottom set (21.8 or whatever). I couldn't find the Fox 3 piece setups online anywhere.
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  92. #92
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    Still loving my DBair. I'm not too keen on all the pieces and o-rings on the reducer system either. I had to throw and old rock shox in there as the ones cane creek sent always seem to have play in them.

  93. #93
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    I'm showing my ignorance as I don't know exactly what you all are talking about. (A picture of the problem would be nice.)

    I may be way off track but Dusty gave some props to RWC SHOCK EYE NEEDLE BEARING KITS on his thread A worthy upgrade . Would this help you out?

    As my Chili will have the DBair, I'm curious to know the best solution.

  94. #94
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    I don't believe the RWC kit will work. From what I read, the CCDB's eyelet the bushing presses into is a slightly different size than Fox/Marz/RS. I've been looking for the thread I found that in, but can't find it again.

    I'll try to get a picture of what's causing my issue.
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  95. #95
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    Ok, here's the best I can do since I'm at work.

    per the diagram:

    #1 is the rubber o-ring that sits right against the bushing sleeve to keep grit out
    #2 is a fixed floating piece that is width dependent on the size of the axle
    #3 is a fixed end piece that has a recessed area with an o-ring on the inside, that keeps all the parts from falling off when you try to install it.

    Now my issue is #1 constantly works out of place and/or works itself up onto #2. So that gives the assembly lateral play the width of #1, probably 1 or 2mm.

    This is on top of the play already there when I put the pivot axle through the bushing. Both my Cane Creek sets of hardware do both things, have play with the pivot axle and the rubber o-ring comes out of place. This design is just beyond piss poor.

    RS and Fox are much better. Both have a larger circumference on the end that goes against the bushing sleeve to capture or cover the o-ring and keep it in place. RS's has a recessed groove that captures a rubber o-ring, and Fox is similar but only has a recessed area to cover up the o-ring.

    My Fox hardware i had for the short end worked and the pivot axle was a super snug fit in the bushing. We'll see how the RS hardware I ordered for the top does.

    Hope this makes sense.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chilcotin: The inevitable DB-air setup thread-ccdb-hardware.jpg  

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  96. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Ok, here's the best I can do since I'm at work.
    WOW; I'd love to see what you could do with a little time! You could probably redesign it for CC.

    Stupid question: Have you sent this info to CC and see their suggestions and if they will send you a fix. (Sorry for the obvious question, but I used to work in tech support and it's amazing how many times things get overlooked in the heat of a situation.)

  97. #97
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    LOL, this is what happens when you are an engineer and sit in front of a computer for most of the day.

    I've not emailed CC about this, simply b/c I know this is how all their hardware is made, and I want a fix now and not have to worry about it anymore. RS and Fox hardware are available and should work, so I can have it fixed in a matter of days.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  98. #98
    TSC
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    LOL, this is what happens when you are an engineer and sit in front of a computer for most of the day.
    I studied engineering (electrical) if you haven't guessed by the anal bullet lists and obnoxiously long posts. I have ADHD and OCD which makes obsessively fixated on only those things that I like. (I think I have a new tag line!)

  99. #99
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    For reference Cane Creek has a site with the base tune for the DB Air on its website: Cane Creek DBAIR Suspension Base Tunes I rode a Chilcotin with these settings and it felt pretty darn good!

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    Is everyone setting sag with all settings full open or with compression and rebound adjustments made first? I went for an XCish ride yesterday and hated how this shock felt climbing. It seemed really squatty/wallowy climbing. It would squat about 1/3 the way into the travel then seemed to hit a platform. If I would stand and climb it would blow past that point and bounced all over the place. I bumbed LSC up a bit and then it really started suffering on techincal square edge features getting hung up way more than I've come to expect out of a Knolly. All in all, it reminded me very much of an RP23 climbing which I hate. Decending it was much better but not to the extent that it was worth the sufferfest on the way up. Maybe this thing is just more of a shuttlebike/DH shock than I was expecting? FWIW I started with sag around 25% then dialed in the settings from full open, if anything I would thing adjusting first would lead to me running less psi which seems like would be even worse climbing. Any thoughts?
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

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