• 03-22-2012
    Dusty Bottoms
    Chilcotin: The inevitable DB-air setup thread
    Let's get this going. This is a crazy adjustable shock, and everyone will have their own preferences based on terrain, etc. This is a good starting point based on our suspension design...


    HSC: 1/2 turn from fully open (the 4x4 suspension design provides inherent bottom out control, so no need to over-damp this setting)

    LSC: 15 clicks from fully closed (the 4x4 suspension design is FULLY ACTIVE, so a couple extra clicks from middle(12) keep the pedalling smooth and controlled)

    HSR: 1.5 turns from fully open (rider preference prevails on this one, depending on how fast you ride and how big the hits are)

    LSR: 12 clicks from fully closed (this is the median setting and keeps bumpy/technical climbing from feeling too springy)

    Cheers.
  • 03-22-2012
    F.N.G
    Cool, thx.

    AM riding.... 30% sag?
  • 03-22-2012
    rscecil007
    Wow, talk about ironic. I just emailed Malcolm this morning about their suggested settings since it's not showing up on their site yet.
  • 03-22-2012
    Dude!
    Dusty thanks!

    Question-
    Why not do everything from open? Since everyone discusses in this manner and even cane creek has adopted the "from open" setting. This would provide consistency, as there are variances with respect to the total clicks and turns so a common start point would be ideal.

    Just a suggestion...
  • 03-22-2012
    Dusty Bottoms
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Dusty thanks!

    Question-
    Why not do everything from open? Since everyone discusses in this manner and even cane creek has adopted the "from open" setting. This would provide consistency, as there are variances with respect to the total clicks and turns so a common start point would be ideal.

    Just a suggestion...

    Weird. I literally took the language straight from their DBcoil base settings sheet, which must be a little dated I guess? Oh well. I agree, uniformity would help everyone.
  • 03-22-2012
    rscecil007
    For what it's worth, I just heard back form Malcolm and he sent me exactly what Dusty posted, word for word.

    Dusty, are these settings what you are running, or have you tweaked them a bit to suit you personally? You told me the other day you got to that "I thought I had a flat tire feeling but it was just my shock tracking well" point on yours, and that's typically pretty indicative that you've got the settings pretty damn close to dialed.
  • 03-22-2012
    Dusty Bottoms
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    For what it's worth, I just heard back form Malcolm and he sent me exactly what Dusty posted, word for word.

    Dusty, are these settings what you are running, or have you tweaked them a bit to suit you personally? You told me the other day you got to that "I thought I had a flat tire feeling but it was just my shock tracking well" point on yours, and that's typically pretty indicative that you've got the settings pretty damn close to dialed.

    Ya, I sent my settings to Malcolm right after I posted them here, they will be a good starting point for anyone, since they are fairly neutral yet specific to our suspension design.

    I've been tweaking this shock for the better part of a month, and I let G-Air borrow it for a week for a 3rd opinion(Noel was the first opinion). These settings are the amalgamation of all this input.
  • 03-22-2012
    rscecil007
    Ah, cool to know. Be interesting when the production batch hits here soon and we really get some discussion going on everyone's settings/findings.
  • 03-22-2012
    madafaka
    the way things are this thread could be postponed at least two months...
  • 03-22-2012
    006_007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by madafaka View Post
    the way things are this thread could be postponed at least two months...

    Thats perfect - lets me finish up what has been an amazing ski season :thumbsup::D:p
  • 03-22-2012
    Chromagftw
    DB Coil Settings?
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    Weird. I literally took the language straight from their DBcoil base settings sheet, which must be a little dated I guess? Oh well. I agree, uniformity would help everyone.

    Language aside, would these DB Air base settings be an accurate starting point if transposed over to the DB Coil? Or do these numbers pertain specifically to the Air model?
  • 03-22-2012
    rscecil007
    Odd thing is last year or so Malcolm told me to do everything from wide open, especially the low speed adjustments. He said from wide open, they are fully closed at 24 clicks, but due to the way they are made (no idea on specifics here), they can have 2 or 3 extra clicks. So from that, if you wanted to open it say 15 clicks, you might really only be on 12 or 13.

    After talking to him, I just figured out what my settings where and recorded everything from wide open.
  • 03-22-2012
    G-AIR
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Chromagftw View Post
    Language aside, would these DB Air base settings be an accurate starting point if transposed over to the DB Coil? Or do these numbers pertain specifically to the Air model?

    In short, no.

    I found the air and coil to have quite different settings. The most noticeable difference was with the HSC. With the air I ran very little HSC. With the coil I was right in the middle of the adjustment.

    Maybe Dusty can chime in. He has quite a bit of time on both shocks.
  • 03-22-2012
    beefmagic
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Odd thing is last year or so Malcolm told me to do everything from wide open, especially the low speed adjustments. He said from wide open, they are fully closed at 24 clicks, but due to the way they are made (no idea on specifics here), they can have 2 or 3 extra clicks. So from that, if you wanted to open it say 15 clicks, you might really only be on 12 or 13.

    After talking to him, I just figured out what my settings where and recorded everything from wide open.

    I picked up a DBair for my endo and noticed the same thing. The manual states that there are 25 clicks of LSR and LSC and I've found that number to be pretty accurate for my shock. The HSR seems to have almost an extra full turn (from the 4 that is stated in the manual).

    I know this is the Chili thread but here are my settings for an older endo in case other endo owner's pick up a DBair.

    LSC: 9 clicks from full open
    LSR: 19 clicks from full open
    HSC: 1/2 turn from full open
    HSR: 3.5 turns from full open

    Compression settings are similar to the posted Chili #'s but I seem to prefer slower rebound. Still dialing it in so the #'s might change a little.
  • 03-24-2012
    geo025
    Dusty how much air are you running & what is your ride weight?
  • 03-24-2012
    Buzz
    That is a ton of HSR? Of the 4 CCDBs we have on our bikes (only one is DB air) I dont think any of them is past 1.5 turns (3 Knollys and 1 Turner). Different strokes for different folks I guess!

    Buzz
  • 03-24-2012
    Dude!
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    That is a ton of HSR? Of the 4 CCDBs we have on our bikes (only one is DB air) I dont think any of them is past 1.5 turns (3 Knollys and 1 Turner). Different strokes for different folks I guess!

    Buzz

    I agree - though the CCDB coil on my Podium has about 2 turns from open and that bike sticks to the ground.

    That's the thing about CCDB so many choices:)!
  • 03-24-2012
    Dusty Bottoms
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by geo025 View Post
    Dusty how much air are you running & what is your ride weight?

    I weigh 215 RTR and ride 150psi.
  • 03-24-2012
    beefmagic
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    That is a ton of HSR? Of the 4 CCDBs we have on our bikes (only one is DB air) I dont think any of them is past 1.5 turns (3 Knollys and 1 Turner). Different strokes for different folks I guess!

    Buzz

    Yeah I was surprised where it ended up too. I may slowly back it off, but probably not too much. Right now it feels pretty good. The downhills I ride are pretty rocky and fast and the slower rebound helps the bucking. It will be interesting to see where others land on their adjustments. BTW, I'm running about 38-40% sag.
  • 03-25-2012
    Muttonchops
    Sorry if i missed it - has anyone posted anything about how the DB air actually feels on the bike? I heard a comment y'day that you can still tell that its an air shock (vs a coil).

    I have never heard that 'flat tire' comment before...sh1t...every time i get that feeling...i adjust something because i dont like it :(

    Apart from all the settings - i would dig to hear some personal feedback.

    thanks dudes
  • 03-25-2012
    beefmagic
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Muttonchops View Post
    Sorry if i missed it - has anyone posted anything about how the DB air actually feels on the bike? I heard a comment y'day that you can still tell that its an air shock (vs a coil).

    I have never heard that 'flat tire' comment before...sh1t...every time i get that feeling...i adjust something because i dont like it :(

    Apart from all the settings - i would dig to hear some personal feedback.

    thanks dudes

    My initial impressions are good but I'm hesitant to say anything definitive because I like a lot of ride time before giving detailed feedback. Plus my shock is probably still breaking in. Also, keep in mind this is on an Endo so Chili and Delirium owners may have a different experience.

    You can get the DBair to have that "flat tire" feeling which some people really like, but the beauty of the shock is that you can also dial that out if you want a different feel.

    IME, it's the best air shock I've ever tried (this includes a Pushed Monarch RT-AM and Xfusion Vector Air HLR). But, a lot of this comes down to personal preference so ymmv.

    The DBair is the closest thing I've felt to coil performance (Avalanche Chubie as a my standard of reference). The initial part of the stroke is very soft and once on the trail feels very plush. IME, the DBair feels more lively while leveling and controlling the terrain whereas the Avy coil feels more composed and controlled moving through its stroke. I chalk this up to differing suspension philosophies than performance deficiencies on the part of either shock. Imho, coil still rules but DBair is so close that it may be splitting hairs at this point. Haven't had the chance to test the DBair on extended dh runs though. Most of my riding terrain is fast ups and downs. Hope this helps.
  • 03-25-2012
    woodyak
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by beefmagic View Post
    Yeah I was surprised where it ended up too. I may slowly back it off, but probably not too much. Right now it feels pretty good. The downhills I ride are pretty rocky and fast and the slower rebound helps the bucking. It will be interesting to see where others land on their adjustments. BTW, I'm running about 38-40% sag.

    40% sag? That seems like too much for a bike with such a low BB.
  • 03-25-2012
    F.N.G
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    40% sag? That seems like too much for a bike with such a low BB.

    I have mine at 35% and HSC just about off completely but a 1/4 to 1/2 turn and haven't blown through the travel yet. 40% might not be too much.

    I hear you though. I am having a hard time thinking about riding that at 40% myself, too.
  • 03-25-2012
    beefmagic
    I actually think the old endo BB is not that low. I prefer low BB's so 40% puts it at a height that I really like. One of the reasons I got the DBair was that I read that they CCDB's work well with lots of sag.
  • 03-25-2012
    catch22
    As eager as I am to get some time on the DB Air and the Chilcotin whenever the hell it gets here, I can't quite get my head around how the thing will climb well, especially in the tech, with so much sag. It seems like if I'm starting with 35% on level ground the thing is going to have to be in the neighborhood of 50%+ if I'm on a steep climb. If that's true I better make sure the MRP 2x is built to take a ****ton of abuse because I'll be beating the piss out of it on ledge ups.

    Anyways, mostly just thinking out loud here, anyone have any thoughts on this?
  • 03-26-2012
    AndyN
    There's a pretty lengthy DBair thread over on the Ibis forum.
  • 03-26-2012
    rscecil007
    A new article posted over at Sicklines:

    linky
  • 03-26-2012
    rippling over canyons
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    A new article posted over at Sicklines:

    linky

    Thanks for the link. I didn't realize there are included internal volume adjust spacers. I wonder if the shocks will ship with none installed?

    Also, Dusty, can you comment on the advantages/disadvantages of using the spacers, baced on terrain and rider weight?
  • 03-26-2012
    woodyak
    Well the spacers lower the air volume adding progressiveness to the shock. From what I've read on this thread and the Ibis thread it sounds like progressiveness is the last thing this shock needs. It will be interesting to see how this shock does on other bikes. Pretty much every report I've read has folks complaining about how they can't get all the travel even with the HSC all the way out. It sounds like the volume spacers and even the HSC adjuster are a waste.

    How's that for E-speculation!!!
  • 03-26-2012
    F.N.G
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rippling over canyons View Post
    Thanks for the link. I didn't realize there are included internal volume adjust spacers. I wonder if the shocks will ship with none installed?

    Also, Dusty, can you comment on the advantages/disadvantages of using the spacers, baced on terrain and rider weight?

    Mine came uninstalled in a bag with shock.
  • 03-26-2012
    rscecil007
    I wonder if the frames coming with DB Air's will come with the little adjuster tool and the spacers? I'm guessing probably not, that's just for aftermarket?
  • 03-26-2012
    F.N.G
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    I wonder if the frames coming with DB Air's will come with the little adjuster tool and the spacers? I'm guessing probably not, that's just for aftermarket?

    Surely, the tool will. Dunno about the spacers. Dont spacers make shock more progressive ramping it up at end stroke? If so, I don't see the need for them on this shock.
  • 03-26-2012
    catch22
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AndyN View Post
    There's a pretty lengthy DBair thread over on the Ibis forum.

    Interesting reading though the suspension designs are so different that I'm guessing a lot of the discussion regarding the ride characteristics/performance are irrelevant. Most interesting was the mention of how people are measuring sag, seems that there is a bit of room from bottom out on some sizes that I wondering if people are factoring into their measurements. It looks like there will be less on our size shock(60mm from bottom of blue seal to end of shaft but stroke is only 57mm) but even so if people are taking into account those extra 3mm that still makes a pretty substantial difference in sag calculations. Someone with sag at 20mm into the stroke might be thinking they are at 33% sag when they are actually at a bit over 35%. Not a huge difference but might be blowing up some of the sag levels being reported.
  • 03-26-2012
    Buzz
    Perhaps they are running with too much air pressure (ie not enough sag)? Sounds like 40% sag might not be out of the question for this shock? My wife has only ridden hers around the local park, so no chance to really try the shock. She said it does feel as plush as the CCDB coil on her Highline (the DB Air is on a Podium), but I think that might be because there was a bit too much air in it AND it probably needs some break in time.


    Buzz
  • 03-26-2012
    AndyN
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    Dont spacers make shock more progressive ramping it up at end stroke? If so, I don't see the need for them on this shock.

    Bender hucks.
  • 03-26-2012
    AndyN
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    Interesting reading though the suspension designs are so different that I'm guessing a lot of the discussion regarding the ride characteristics/performance are irrelevant.

    Idk. The Ibis HD apparently does not play well with the CCDB since it's designed around a progressive air spring. That would have led me to think that the DBair would be a perfect match... yet excessive sag and little to no HSC is required to approach full travel.

    Don't get me wrong, I think the DBair has huge potential, and is on my short list for the Chilcotin. Right now it just seems to be overdamped in HSC, or the air spring curve needs tweaking, or both.
  • 03-26-2012
    Dusty Bottoms
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    How's that for E-speculation!!!

    Pretty damn accurate.

    I honestly don't know if the tool will come in the box. I'll ask.
  • 03-27-2012
    F.N.G
    1 Attachment(s)
    Settings-easy reference
  • 03-28-2012
    rscecil007
    Nice. Thanks FNG.

    Have you gotten any good rides on yours yet?
  • 03-28-2012
    ebxtreme
    I'm with Catch22.....40% sag sounds like an awful lot if you ask me!

    Seems like climbing would be a biotch and any pedaling through technical terrain would too. I know before I shimmed my RP23, I was having a ton of issues with that.
  • 03-28-2012
    F.N.G
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Nice. Thanks FNG.

    Have you gotten any good rides on yours yet?

    A few. It is a beotch to set up. Especially for someone as impatient as me. Granted, it is a helluva lot better than the platform rp23. I have my LSC and HSC all the way off and still don't use most of the travel at 35% sag.
    I am going to try the 40% sag and see. My honest opinion is I wished this shock ran the way it does on this bike with the dials moved close to half open. But not getting plush travel with the LSC and HSC off completely, not much more room to "adjust" except the sag and hoping maybe it needs to "break in" more.

    Interesting though, my LSR knob started turning in both directions endlessly and I called Cane Creek. They directed me to BTI and while I was in Santa Fe, NM today, I dropped it off to get warrantied. I told the tech what was going on and how it rode and he said he would talk to Malcolm and see if there were any adjustments he could do to it internally to make it more specific to the Chilcotin. I will let you guys know if he does anything different when I get it back.
  • 03-28-2012
    rscecil007
    Hmmm, interesting. Hope they can straighten you out warranty wise, and you can get it tuned more to your liking.

    Glad I have my older CCDB coil as backup right now though...
  • 03-28-2012
    AndyN
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    I have my LSC and HSC all the way off and still don't use most of the travel at 35% sag.
    I am going to try the 40% sag and see. My honest opinion is I wished this shock ran the way it does on this bike with the dials moved close to half open. But not getting plush travel with the LSC and HSC off completely, not much more room to "adjust" except the sag

    Well said.
  • 03-28-2012
    wilks
    I ordered my Chili with DBair based on Knoel using the term "game changer" as I recall yet the reviews here are average at best. I am very interested to see how it feels.
  • 03-28-2012
    beefmagic
    For the record, I really like the performance of the DBair on my endo. Not sure how this will translate to the chili but I can't imagine it will be that much different. I like it better than every shock I've tried (with the exception of the Avy barely edging it out).

    Like FNG mentioned, I wish the adjustments had more range and full travel was a little easier to achieve. (sorry about your warranty issues!) 40% is a big percentage to wrap my head around on paper but on the bike it performs great, ime. The quality of suspension never makes me feel like I'm missing any travel. I've not hit any drops over 3 feet on it yet so perhaps the last bit or travel is reserved for large hits. If so, I'm ok with that. The jury is still out concerning long term durability but so far I'm impressed.
  • 03-29-2012
    geo025
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    I weigh 215 RTR and ride 150psi.

    Thanks I'm at 220lbs rtr .
    I'm starting to wonder if this shock is better suited to the heavier rider ?
  • 03-29-2012
    greasemeat
    Oh you don't say? Interesting :cool:
  • 03-30-2012
    AndyN
    Fanning the flames of e-speculation
    Posted on the Intense forum

    "I heard today through the grapevine from a source I trust that there may be some issues with the CCDB Air from the factory that are causing the end stroke travel issues. Apparently more information is forthcoming and I will report back when I have some solid data. Cane Creek will NOT respond to any of my requests for information at the moment. Maybe they are busy...."
  • 03-30-2012
    rscecil007
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AndyN View Post
    Posted on the Intense forum

    "I heard today through the grapevine from a source I trust that there may be some issues with the CCDB Air from the factory that are causing the end stroke travel issues. Apparently more information is forthcoming and I will report back when I have some solid data. Cane Creek will NOT respond to any of my requests for information at the moment. Maybe they are busy...."

    Well that is interesting.
  • 03-30-2012
    woodyak
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by AndyN View Post
    Posted on the Intense forum

    "I heard today through the grapevine from a source I trust that there may be some issues with the CCDB Air from the factory that are causing the end stroke travel issues. Apparently more information is forthcoming and I will report back when I have some solid data. Cane Creek will NOT respond to any of my requests for information at the moment. Maybe they are busy...."

    Ugh!

    Breath deep, don't panic...

    What size is the shock again? Anyone know what size the shock spacers are? I might have a shock I can use as backup.