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  1. #101
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    catch22, please get the shock dialed for climbing corner canyon, and bombing local DH chunk, then report back. I'll have mine built up in a few weeks and would rather let you go through the sufferfest...

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    Is everyone setting sag with all settings full open or with compression and rebound adjustments made first? I went for an XCish ride yesterday and hated how this shock felt climbing. It seemed really squatty/wallowy climbing. It would squat about 1/3 the way into the travel then seemed to hit a platform. If I would stand and climb it would blow past that point and bounced all over the place. I bumbed LSC up a bit and then it really started suffering on techincal square edge features getting hung up way more than I've come to expect out of a Knolly. All in all, it reminded me very much of an RP23 climbing which I hate. Decending it was much better but not to the extent that it was worth the sufferfest on the way up. Maybe this thing is just more of a shuttlebike/DH shock than I was expecting? FWIW I started with sag around 25% then dialed in the settings from full open, if anything I would thing adjusting first would lead to me running less psi which seems like would be even worse climbing. Any thoughts?
    I don't think it matters where the nobs are for setting sag. I may be wrong though. I made settings on my shock and played with sag after. I run more sag too. Like 35%. For me, this shock seems to get hung up a little on square edges going slow. It is a small price to pay for the good feel of high speed bumps though. On climbs, I don't really wallow at all. I actually climb so much more efficient on this shock than what it did with the rp23.
    Just set the shock to the suggested settings and set the sag. Then on rides, play with one adjustment at a time to hone it in. It can be overwhelming and confusing if you do several adjustments at once on rides. It takes time. Don't get frustrated. My bike feels good right now and I know I still have small adjustments needing to be made. I just don't think you are going to get proper settings on that shock with that 25% sag though.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by B Gillespie View Post
    catch22, please get the shock dialed for climbing corner canyon, and bombing local DH chunk, then report back. I'll have mine built up in a few weeks and would rather let you go through the sufferfest...
    +1!!!

    catch22: I think you might need more sag as FNG suggested. Here is Noel's advice. I know you read this a while ago but it might be worth a re-read. Chilcotin: The inevitable DB-air setup thread

    Noel has too much Knollyage for one person. He's like the Francis Bacon (mmm... BACON!) of mountain biking. He needs to be duplicated so he can finish everything on his plate (abstract pun intended).
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  4. #104
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    RS and Fox hardware will not work on the top end...

    To anyone thinking of switching hardware possibly based on my earlier posts where I was having problems with slop and play with the originally CC hardware:

    Did this today using RS hardware in an attempt to fix the slop the CC hardware was causing. It looked like it all fit together fine when I installed it, but I heard a squeak a few times on the ride today, and the hardware was the only thing I'd changed. So when I got home and took it apart and saw this. Looking at it off the bike, I realized the left and right reducer didn't sit flush with the bushing axle in place. Fox hardware is the same, sits flush until you put the axle through, then it does not

    It's my fault but I'm still pissed. I SWEAR I checked it out with the axle in place before I mounted it, but obviously not. The other side is gouged up too, but only about a 1/4 of the circle, not the whole thing. I'm sure it's superficial, but annoying.

    Just a word of warning. RS/Fox hardware works fine on the bottom end. It's only that top end where the adjusters are that are the problem since there isn't a large flat area for the reducers to sit against.

    That is all folks, I'm going to go beat my head against a wall some more...
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    To anyone thinking of switching hardware possibly based on my earlier posts where I was having problems with slop and play with the originally CC hardware:

    Did this today using RS hardware in an attempt to fix the slop the CC hardware was causing. It looked like it all fit together fine when I installed it, but I heard a squeak a few times on the ride today, and the hardware was the only thing I'd changed. So when I got home and took it apart and saw this. Looking at it off the bike, I realized the left and right reducer didn't sit flush with the bushing axle in place. Fox hardware is the same, sits flush until you put the axle through, then it does not

    It's my fault but I'm still pissed. I SWEAR I checked it out with the axle in place before I mounted it, but obviously not. The other side is gouged up too, but only about a 1/4 of the circle, not the whole thing. I'm sure it's superficial, but annoying.

    Just a word of warning. RS/Fox hardware works fine on the bottom end. It's only that top end where the adjusters are that are the problem since there isn't a large flat area for the reducers to sit against.

    That is all folks, I'm going to go beat my head against a wall some more...
    Sux dude. Way too much money for that shock to be playing around with non-specific hardware. I have no issues at all with the hardware on my CCDB. If I did, I would drop a line to Cane Creek, as i hear, they have really good CS. Hopefully you can get it worked out.
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Sux dude. Way too much money for that shock to be playing around with non-specific hardware. I have no issues at all with the hardware on my CCDB. If I did, I would drop a line to Cane Creek, as i hear, they have really good CS. Hopefully you can get it worked out.
    Yeah, if I hadn't had the exact same issue with two different sets of Cane Creek hardware I wouldn't have even tried it. They do have great CS, but since I've gone and eff'd it up, I'm not sure what they will do at this point. And a new upper bridge can't be cheap.

    Hopefully it's just superficial, but I'll ping Garry @ CC tomorrow and see what he says.
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Yeah, if I hadn't had the exact same issue with two different sets of Cane Creek hardware I wouldn't have even tried it. They do have great CS, but since I've gone and eff'd it up, I'm not sure what they will do at this point. And a new upper bridge can't be cheap.

    Hopefully it's just superficial, but I'll ping Garry @ CC tomorrow and see what he says.
    Good Luck Ryan - sorry to hear and see the agony!!!

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude! View Post
    Good Luck Ryan - sorry to hear and see the agony!!!
    Thanks Jamie.

    The only thing that really makes me feel better is the fact there hardware wasn't working and was causing an issue, and I was only trying to fix it.

    Not like I eff'd it up being stupid and not trying to used the correct parts, etc. I'll email Malcolm tonight or tomrorow and see what they can do. I think he's still head of all things CCDB and Gary's the headset guy.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Thanks Jamie.

    The only thing that really makes me feel better is the fact there hardware wasn't working and was causing an issue, and I was only trying to fix it.

    Not like I eff'd it up being stupid and not trying to used the correct parts, etc. I'll email Malcolm tonight or tomrorow and see what they can do. I think he's still head of all things CCDB and Gary's the headset guy.
    No issues using the Fox two piece hardware on my upper shock mount... 3 piece on the lower. I just went out and checked it and all is fine.

  10. #110
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    Complete 180 for me on the DBAir today, spent a good hour playing with settings, sag, etc and it was absolutely fantastic for four laps on Arcylon tonight, stoked!!! Ended up really liking it at 145psi and my riding weight is about 190. Not sure exactly where that put sag, probably in the 30-33% range. I think one issue I may have been having was expecting the 25 clicks and 4 turns of adjustment they list, mine have 30 clicks each and 5 full rotations so when I backed everything to completely open to start and then went with the recommended number of turns/clicks from there I wasn't nearly as far into the adjustments as I thought. Tonight it climbed really well and was insanely nice on the downhills. I'll post up more info if anyone has any questions, wants advice, or I get more ride time in.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    Complete 180 for me on the DBAir today, spent a good hour playing with settings, sag, etc and it was absolutely fantastic for four laps on Arcylon tonight, stoked!!! Ended up really liking it at 145psi and my riding weight is about 190. Not sure exactly where that put sag, probably in the 30-33% range. I think one issue I may have been having was expecting the 25 clicks and 4 turns of adjustment they list, mine have 30 clicks each and 5 full rotations so when I backed everything to completely open to start and then went with the recommended number of turns/clicks from there I wasn't nearly as far into the adjustments as I thought. Tonight it climbed really well and was insanely nice on the downhills. I'll post up more info if anyone has any questions, wants advice, or I get more ride time in.
    I'm super happy for you! (And for me, and all those others that can use your info.) Thanks for the info about the extra clicks. How many clicks did ultimately end up with (from full open) with "extra tunable" shock (I'll assume/pretend that the extra clicks are a product enhancement)?
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    Is everyone setting sag with all settings full open or with compression and rebound adjustments made first? I went for an XCish ride yesterday and hated how this shock felt climbing. It seemed really squatty/wallowy climbing. It would squat about 1/3 the way into the travel then seemed to hit a platform. If I would stand and climb it would blow past that point and bounced all over the place. I bumbed LSC up a bit and then it really started suffering on techincal square edge features getting hung up way more than I've come to expect out of a Knolly. All in all, it reminded me very much of an RP23 climbing which I hate. Decending it was much better but not to the extent that it was worth the sufferfest on the way up. Maybe this thing is just more of a shuttlebike/DH shock than I was expecting? FWIW I started with sag around 25% then dialed in the settings from full open, if anything I would thing adjusting first would lead to me running less psi which seems like would be even worse climbing. Any thoughts?
    Sag should be set with the dampening fully open. Otherwise you can end up with the dampening supporting the rider weight and not the spring. This can result in less spring pressure than what you should be using. It sounds like that may be the case based on what you are describing.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Giggity View Post
    Sag should be set with the dampening fully open. Otherwise you can end up with the dampening supporting the rider weight and not the spring. This can result in less spring pressure than what you should be using. It sounds like that may be the case based on what you are describing.
    Spring?
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Spring?
    Air spring.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    I'm super happy for you! (And for me, and all those others that can use your info.) Thanks for the info about the extra clicks. How many clicks did ultimately end up with (from full open) with "extra tunable" shock (I'll assume/pretend that the extra clicks are a product enhancement)?
    After dialing all four dials to full open and counting clicks and turns all the way to full closed I went with the assumption that I've got 2-3 extra clicks on each end of the low speed asjustments and an extra half turn on each end of the high speed. Whether that is actually true or not I don't know, I'm turning the dials until I start feeling some resistance at each end not really a hard stop as I've heard in the past that those adjusters can snap things internally if pushed too far. When adjusting I started with a half turn in on each of the high speed and 2 clicks on each of the low and then just used the recommended Chilcotin tune settings off Cane Creek's site from there. I ened up at 145psi and geared up I'm likely around 190lbs. Measuring sag I'm in the 17mm-18mm range from outer edge of the blue seal to the inner edge of the o ring so that's going to be in the 32-34% range if you factor a 57mm stroke. Initially I was running closer to 14mm/25% sag and that coupled with all my base settings dialed in lower than I thought made for a pretty unruly ride.
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  16. #116
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    That's probably about the right PSI. I'm about 220 RTR and use 150psi. That gets me 20mm of sag. That's with a full 2L of water in the pack, fyi.
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  17. #117
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    I had my CCDB on my old DT - it was a 2007 model with the spherical bushings.
    For the 10 Delirium, I had it sent back to CC for the valve update, a rebuild and to change the mount (no more spherical bushing - which I liked) to the solid bushing style, which was required on the new D. I use the same hardware as you have shown and have not had any problem with the inner rubber o-ring in the 2+ years I have been running the frame.

    Is there lube on the o-ring, and if so does this make it better or worse?

    Good luck

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  18. #118
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    I remember something regarding the knob range issues on the CC.

    Most suspension seems to count clicks/turns from full closed with a bit of play in the full open position, ie 20 clicks of range but actually at 18 you are full open, so the last 2 do nothing.

    Now from what I remember the CCDB shocks are the reverse. They should always be set from full open as there is a bit of play at full closed. So for 20 clicks of range from full open, at 18 you are fully closed and the last 2 do nothing...

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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    Complete 180 for me on the DBAir today.
    Good news...keep the updates coming. I am swaying and bending under all this pressure. More positive news will send me over the edge for sure!
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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    Air spring.

    Thanks. I was wondering if there was a spring internally.

    I have a question for you shock gurus: I thought that damping (LSC/HSC) increased resistance to compression but did not change the steady state. In other words, the sag will always go to the same place when the same amount of weight is applied. It will just take longer to get to the same sag when dampening is added. How am I misunderstanding things?
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykel View Post
    I had my CCDB on my old DT - it was a 2007 model with the spherical bushings.
    For the 10 Delirium, I had it sent back to CC for the valve update, a rebuild and to change the mount (no more spherical bushing - which I liked) to the solid bushing style, which was required on the new D. I use the same hardware as you have shown and have not had any problem with the inner rubber o-ring in the 2+ years I have been running the frame.

    Is there lube on the o-ring, and if so does this make it better or worse?

    Good luck

    michael
    Nope, dry as a bone no lube. I talked to Malcolm and he said he'd seen this once before, where the eyelet alignment was off. It's going back to them tomorrow.
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  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Nope, dry as a bone no lube. I talked to Malcolm and he said he'd seen this once before, where the eyelet alignment was off. It's going back to them tomorrow.
    I hope I'm not having the same problem as you. My reducers wore out already with only about 1.5 months of riding. More play that I've ever had on worn reducers. I have 2 sets on order from CC.

    I loved the spherical bearings they used to have. Never a problem. Every fox and RS Shock I've ever owned I'd wear through them pretty quickly.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    I hope I'm not having the same problem as you. My reducers wore out already with only about 1.5 months of riding. More play that I've ever had on worn reducers. I have 2 sets on order from CC.

    I loved the spherical bearings they used to have. Never a problem. Every fox and RS Shock I've ever owned I'd wear through them pretty quickly.
    Are these reducers mandatory for mounting this shock or are you guys doing some tweaking?

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayha View Post
    Are these reducers mandatory for mounting this shock or are you guys doing some tweaking?
    Yup. I guess the spherical bearings put too much pressure on the shock bolt so CC changed to be like everyone else.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodyak View Post
    Yup. I guess the spherical bearings put too much pressure on the shock bolt so CC changed to be like everyone else.
    Well, that's not encouraging seeing that you've only been on it for 1.5 months. I bought some RWC needle bearings for my current DHX and that packed out too. It probably took a season of riding though.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by mayha View Post
    Are these reducers mandatory for mounting this shock or are you guys doing some tweaking?
    No tweaking, stock CC hardware.
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Nope, dry as a bone no lube. I talked to Malcolm and he said he'd seen this once before, where the eyelet alignment was off. It's going back to them tomorrow.
    You have a spare shock? Or just going to ride backup bike?

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by F.N.G View Post
    You have a spare shock? Or just going to ride backup bike?
    I've got a ccdb coil as a backup. I think my 450 spring is a tad light and I might need a 500,but it may work.
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  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    I've got a ccdb coil as a backup. I think my 450 spring is a tad light and I might need a 500,but it may work.
    Nice!

  30. #130
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    Started riding my Chilcotin with a RP23, including my recent trip to Moab, and felt that the shock quickly becomes overwhelmed by the 4x4 suspension design. Even more so than my DW 5 Spot. So I was really excited to get my DB-Air mounted up and go for a ride earlier this week. I set up the shock as per Dustybottom’s recommendations and figured after the ride I must’ve set something up incorrectly. When I go home I rechecked everything and found that I was spot on with the recommendations. So I figure that I must be misunderstanding something and hoping that you guys can correct me if I’m wrong. Here goes…

    1. “Fully open” on any of the adjustment knobs means that I am turning the knob counter-clockwise, with “fully closed” being the opposite.

    2. When adjusting the LSC and the LSR a click is simply a slight turn of the knob when you can feel and hear the indent on the adjustment.

    3. There are 25 clicks of adjustment for both the LSC and the LSR.

    4. When adjusting the HSC and the HSR a “turn” is a full rotation of the knob.

    5. The HSC and the HSR knobs have a range of 4 full turns.

    Have I got it right? If not, please let me know. In the meantime, I’m going to fiddle with it again tonight and see if I can’t get any closer to the nirvana that you’re all gushing about.
    Last edited by CrashTheDOG; 06-07-2012 at 07:00 PM.

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    Crash,

    All 5 of your assumptions are right. Why do you feel you must have set it up incorrectly, what did it feel like on the trail?
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  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrashTheDOG View Post
    Started riding my Chilcotin with a RP23, including my recent trip to Moab, and felt that the shock quickly becomes overwhelmed by the 4x4 suspension design. Even more so than my DW 5 Spot. So I was really excited to get my DB-Air mounted up and go for a ride earlier this week. I set up the shock as per Dustybottom’s recommendations and figured after the ride I must’ve set something up incorrectly. When I go home I rechecked everything and found that I was spot on with the recommendations. So I figure that I must be misunderstanding something and hoping that you guys can correct me if I’m wrong. Here goes…

    1. “Fully open” on any of the adjustment knobs means that I am turning the knob counter-clockwise, with “fully closed” being the opposite.

    2. When adjusting the LSC and the LSR a click is simply a slight turn of the knob when you can feel and hear the indent on the adjustment.

    3. There are 25 clicks of adjustment for both the LSC and the LSR.

    4. When adjusting the HSC and the HSR a “turn” is a full rotation of the knob.

    5. The HSC and the HSR knobs have a range of 4 full turns.

    Have I got it right? If not, please let me know. In the meantime, I’m going to fiddle with it again tonight and see if I can’t get any closer to the nirvana that you’re all gushing about.
    If you haven't, go back to post 101 on this thread and read those by Catch22 or directed at him. Also, read the link on one of my posts that has some info from Noel. Hopefully, your experience is like his--he hated the DBair then he loved it once he had it set up right.
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  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Why do you feel you must have set it up incorrectly, what did it feel like on the trail?
    It feels dead. Like a blown shock. There's no pop and the front end feels like it has a 25 lbs weight strapped to it when I try to lift the front end while riding. I really hope I screwed up the initial setup some how and that I can get it somewhere close with the settings provided by Knolly & CC and start making small adjustments from there to fine tune it. With four different adjustments, this shock intimidates me. I've never had the patience to take the time to understand what everything does and the cause and effect of adjusting this to get that. I guess it's time to bite the bullet and go to school.

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    It shouldnt feel dead and I find it to be very lively on mine. Maybe go back to fully open on everything set sag and start again. My settings are pretty much as cc have on their website with a little extra lsc. Sag is 35%. I have noticed the front end is not as easy to lift as the DW and mini link bikes I've owned but am getting used to it and I probably should be tweaking my compression and rebound settings on the Deville but have been fiddling with the rear suspension on rides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrashTheDOG View Post
    It feels dead. Like a blown shock. There's no pop and the front end feels like it has a 25 lbs weight strapped to it when I try to lift the front end while riding. I really hope I screwed up the initial setup some how and that I can get it somewhere close with the settings provided by Knolly & CC and start making small adjustments from there to fine tune it. With four different adjustments, this shock intimidates me. I've never had the patience to take the time to understand what everything does and the cause and effect of adjusting this to get that. I guess it's time to bite the bullet and go to school.
    Definitely read through my last few posts on this thread. On my shock I get 30 clicks and 5 full turns from full open to closed. And pay close attention to sag, I started with about 160 psi an a bit under 25% sag and it rode horribly for me. I compensated the clicks by going with an extra couple clicks towards the middle and an extra half turn and dropped psi to 145 which put sag around 32-34%. It completely turned the ride around and loved it last time out.
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  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrashTheDOG View Post
    It feels dead. Like a blown shock. There's no pop and the front end feels like it has a 25 lbs weight strapped to it when I try to lift the front end while riding. I really hope I screwed up the initial setup some how and that I can get it somewhere close with the settings provided by Knolly & CC and start making small adjustments from there to fine tune it. With four different adjustments, this shock intimidates me. I've never had the patience to take the time to understand what everything does and the cause and effect of adjusting this to get that. I guess it's time to bite the bullet and go to school.
    RJ, elementary question here but just to check....Did you air the shock with low psi first, and cycle it a bit to negative charge the chambers? Then set your sag to the appropriate setting? Sag should be set to 20-22mm. If you just mounted it, and set sag, you lost a lot of initial PSI.

  37. #137
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    A bit of a warning: if you’re looking for a quick tuning fix, you won’t find it here. However, if you’re looking to really understand your shock and how to translate this into performance, then read on!

    With Chilcotins hitting the market and a large number of CCDB-Air shocks being equipped on these frames, it would be good to get some more extensive tuning experience out publicly. This is a great shock, but it's fairly different than anything that's been on the market before and I think there is going to be a bit of confusion on how to set these shocks up. There are already reports online about excessive progressiveness or weird air spring curves: I can pretty much guarantee that outside of some extremely rare "bad combinations" (i.e. where a particular shock's air spring does NOT play well together with the frame's shock rate) most of these reports are based on set up issues. This shock is extremely tunable and the one challenge with the CCDB-Coil (getting yourself into a terribly tuned situation) is certainly possible on with the CCDB-Air and possibly even more so due to the increase in variables to tune.

    That being said, the CCDB-Air offers a unique take on air suspension compared to products that currently exist on the market, one that customers who put pure suspension performance first while maintaining a reasonable weight and / or shock set up profile will likely really enjoy.


    Some back ground information....

    We have been fortunate at Knolly to have had exposure to this shock for close to two years now, and have been playing with some of the earliest prototypes available for well over a year. This has given us a fair bit of time to see both how the shock has developed physically and also to get a fair bit of on trail experience with the shock on the Chilcotin, Delirium and Podium frames.

    So, the first question is (before even considering tuning this shock): "Is this the right product for me?"

    This question is a difficult one and it's also why the CCDB-Air is not the only shock that we sell with the Chilcotin frame. We pick our frame shock choices carefully, based on performance, reliability, customer input, manufacturer support, availability and again, performance. We aim to spec the right shock and don't play games like using the smallest air can possible to shave another 40 grams off of the frame. We work with our shock vendors to ensure that the shock's performance is as dialed as it can be for each frame that we make.

    This is why we offer 3 shock options for the Chilcotin: the RP23 (HV can), the CCDB-Air and the CCDB-Coil. The fact is that for a large percentage of our customers, the RP23 will be the best shock choice: it's lightweight, reliable, works really well in almost situations, can be ridden surprisingly aggressively and is very easy to setup. What customers don't realize is that we work with Fox to develop a specific tune setting: there are a half dozen internally adjustable settings on the RP23 shock, each of which we tune to where we think the shock will provide the best overall performance for the vast majority of customers. However, there is no way for end users to tune most of these settings: you need to work with a Fox approved service centre.

    The CCDB shocks are the opposite: adjustments similar to the RP23's internal settings are available on the CCDB shocks externally and just as you could get less than ideal performance with an incorrectly factory tuned RP23 shock, you - the end user - can do exactly this with the CCDB shocks because you can adjust those settings to any setting you desire (or don't desire!). Wow - that was a bit of a run on sentence

    Essentially, the CCDB gives you the ability to achieve a custom tune: the trick is making sure that this custom tune is the correct tune.

    Anyway, the point here is that when adjusting CCDB shocks, it helps to understand what you are doing for real, as opposed to thinking you know what you're doing but in reality just guessing.

    This post hence becomes a bit of a philosophical approach on how to tune the CCDB-Air shock, instead of a “just give me the information I want so that I can turn some dials and get the exact performance that I want”.

    Who is the ideal CCDB customer? Someone that wants the ultimate in “on trail” suspension performance. Someone who wants to spend the time to get the shock set up correctly. Someone who will notice when they get bucked slightly (or not so slightly) when the terrain they’re riding overcomes a different shock’s ability to cope. And, someone who is not overly concerned with having a shock that you can lock out to make the bike pedal like a hardtail on the pavement (we are talking about Chilcotins here, not hardtail 29ers ).


    On to CCDB-Air tuning and setup…

    The first thing to realize is that there are TWO main ideas that need to be understood to successfully tune this shock.

    1) The Air Spring and how sag will affect your bike’s stature
    2) Damping control and how to tune this by using the method of Bi-section (more about this later on).

    Understanding both of these key components will drastically help reduce the time required to tune this shock and ensure that you arrive at the best tune for you and your riding needs.

    1) The Air Spring:
    Understanding how an air spring works and why it’s different than a coil spring is important. The first thing is that an air spring is infinitely variable. That means that unlike a coil spring where you’re working with fixed increments of spring rate (i.e. 350#, 400#, 450#, etc…) you can have any spring rate you want in an air spring shock. With a coil shock you get the correct spring rate based on a sag measurement: once you have the correct coil spring installed on the shock, then you tune everything around that coil spring.

    The second thing is that air springs are naturally progressive and hence can develop really good bottom out resistance, but some times at the expense of mid stroke support.

    With an air spring, the challenge becomes that you can tweak that air spring curve. For example, say that with a CCDB-coil, you used a 400# spring. For the CCDB-Air, this might translate into a 130 PSI pressure range. With the coil spring, you are limited to 400#: you can’t have 410# or 385#, only 400#. However, with an air spring you CAN have these in between spring rates, and this can make things more complicated because if you change the air spring pressure by even 5psi, you will notice this on the trail.

    How do you find the correct air spring pressure? Well, unfortunately IMHO, sag settings will get you about 90% of the way there, but not 100% of the way there. You’ll only get that last 10% with on trail testing. Also, different riders will have different ideas of how much sag they want; some will be down at 32% and others up to 35% and while that doesn’t sound like a lot of difference, it will be a lot when on the trail.

    To set the air spring pressure, start off with around 33% sag. This will get you reasonably close to your desired air spring rate. Now, how to get this actually dialed in, will take some on bike time (yeah!). I would recommend using relatively benign trails to start: somewhere where you can keep the bike level and get a feel for the bike’s stature and balance. This shock can be active, so it will take you a few rides to figure this out.

    You should find that when pedaling on reasonably level terrain (and I don’t mean flat – it can be technical, I just don’t mean climbing or descending) your bike feels balanced. If it feels like the back end is riding too high, then perhaps drop the pressure a tiny bit. If it feels like the bike is too slack (and you’ll notice this due to “floppy steering” and a lack of ground clearance), then add pressure. With your initial 33% sag setting you should be pretty close already: make small changes – 5 psi maximum at a time – and don’t change any other settings.
    Getting the correct spring rate is a bit of a feeling the bike out game: you'll figure it out eventually: the bike should ride level on flat terrain (too much pressure will obviously make the bike feel steep on the flats and too little pressure will make it feel like it's sagging on the climbs). The CCDB-Air spring curve has good midstroke support, so even though it doesn't have lock out for climbing, it will ride a little higher than the RP23 when climbing which does offset this slightly.
    Personally, I'm about 215 nekkid and I was initially using around 145 - 155 psi and ended up around the latter. At about 180 lbs body weight, you will probably be in the 135 psi range.


    So, once you have the air spring set reasonably well, LEAVE IT THERE. This will be tough to do, but trust me on this – at least at the start 


    2) On to tuning the damper settings.

    The next thing to understand is the Method of Bisection. This is important and will make your life way easier when tuning this shock! While it may seem complicated to start with, it will be well worth adopting this philosophy as it will make tuning suspension much more methodical and ultimately get you to the best suspension tune possible.

    Essentially you will start with your damper fully open and ride the bike. Then, you will fully close the damper and ride again. Obviously these settings will be WAY off, but you’ll get a feel for the extremes of the adjustment range. The idea is to go back to the “almost fully open” position, then again, to the “almost fully closed” position. You’ll work back and forth away from the end points and will eventually arrive at the desired setting. The drawing below gives you a pictorial idea of how to go about doing this.

    <img src="http://gallery.mtbr.com/data/mtbr/500/Bisection_Method.png"/>
    (thanks to who ever created this excellent drawing!)


    Now it’s time to get started!


    When tuning the CCDB Air the first time - to be honest - I found it quite tricky until I figured it out a bit.

    The issue is that because the shock has such GOOD inherent bottom out resistance (due to the progressiveness of the air spring, plus the shock’s excellent bottom out resistance), I kept reducing High Speed Compression until the shock was fully open. I thought that I still had too much HSC because the shock wouldn't bottom out. However what I was doing to blasting through the travel without any HSC and then hitting the shock's inherent bottom out without noticing it.



    So, follow the sequence below to get started:

    LSC = Low Speed Compression
    HSC = High Speed Compression
    LSR = Low Speed Rebound
    HSR = High Speed Rebound

    • Fully open up LSC & HSC: I would stick LSR & HSR at their mid settings for right now, unless those are terrible for you (we'll tune them later): now the work comes in I generally consider HSC the easiest setting to tune: find a small jump - bigger than a curb, but it doesn't have to be huge: about 2 - 4' is probably about right. It should be big enough that you can cycle the shock through all of its travel. Start with HSC totally open and hit the jump: you should feel like the bike doesn't have enough travel, that it seems to reach the end of its travel quickly. Now, fully close HSC and hit the jump again. You'll have a different feeling, which is that you can't use all of the travel. So, to recap: no HSC (under damped) = feels like not enough travel, and full HSC (over damped) = feels like you can't use all of the travel. So, now what you should do is go back to almost fully open HSC and hit the jump again. Then, set the HSC to almost fully closed and hit the jump. You're going to zone in to the ideal setting by going between over damped and under damped settings. Again, this is called the method of bisection and will help you find the ideal range for HSC.
    • LSC: this one's a little more subtle to tune, because certain aspects won't be immediately apparent. You'll obviously want enough LSC to have the bike pedal well, but not too much to affect handling or suspension suppleness. Where I found too much LSC affected handling were in the following scenarios: a) Hard to manual bike (i.e. when climbing fire roads and having to cross water ditches); b) loss of traction / suppleness on loose / rapid hit terrain. Too little LSC and of course the bike may have more pedal feed back.
    • LSR: this is akin to "regular rebound" on most single rebound adjuster shocks. Set it so that your suspension's not too active, but not slow enough that it packs up on chatter / braking bumps, loose chop, etc... This is probably the damper setting that has the most variation between different riders: after demo bikes we see that more novice –or hesitant - customers tend to use a LOT of rebound, whereas customers who are used to riding quickly and actively on the bike will generally use a lot less LSR damping. Ultimately, each customer will find a setting that is in tune with their ability and local terrain, but in general people use more of this than required.
    • HSR: this is possibly the hardest damper setting to tune accurately as it’s not always obvious and most customers (especially those new to the CCDB shocks) won’t have experience tuning this setting. The differences in your suspension’s performance are also generally not immediately obvious when adjusting the HSR as well (it is truly an “on trail” feel), contributing to the difficulty in tuning this. HSR controls how the bike reacts to sudden un-weighting of the rear suspension. This most often happens when hitting a jump and all of a sudden the bike’s rear shock goes from a fairly compressed state to a completely topped out position almost instantaneously. Too little HSR will lead to the dreaded “bucking” feeling when hitting lips on jumps, causing the front of the bike to nose dive. Too little HSR can also lead to bucking on hard landings, again where the bike will unload and want to pitch you forwards over the handle bar. Conversely too much HSR can make the bike feel “dead” when jumping. And, while lots of HSR could be nice when landing big drops, being over damped will make the bike land solidly, but not be ready for the next impact, making maintaining control difficult.

    Ultimately HSC and HSR are easiest to test when hitting jumps / drops and such, where as LSC and LSR are more "on the trail" kind of adjustments. Also, remember that changing the air pressure will affect things like HSC slightly, so best to get the air spring dialed in a quickly as possible, then tune the shock, then fine tune the airspring, followed by fine tuning the damper settings.

    Hope that helps - cheers!
    Last edited by knollybikes.com; 06-09-2012 at 01:41 AM.
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  38. #138
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    Lots of very useful information here on setting up the CCDB, even for a NomadC owner . Thanks Noel for that very informative post. Just one question to check I understand everything correctly:

    When you say "too much" or "too little" of this or that, I'm assuming you mean too much/too little damping. So:

    too much L/HSC: means too much "resistance" against compressing the shock (very extreme case: full L/HSC would be like a lockout)
    too little L/HSC: means too little resistance against compressing the shock (very extreme case: no L/HSC means the shock rushing through its travel on the smallest rock)
    too much L/HSR: means too much "resistance" against extending the shock (extreme case: with full L/HSR you can actually see the shock extending very slowly after being compressed)
    too little L/HSC: means too little resistance against extending the shock (very extreme case: no L/HSR means the shock will extend like a jack-in-the-box / pogo stick).

    ?

    Thanks
    Leon

  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrashTheDOG View Post
    Started riding my Chilcotin with a RP23, including my recent trip to Moab, and felt that the shock quickly becomes overwhelmed by the 4x4 suspension design. Even more so than my DW 5 Spot. So I was really excited to get my DB-Air mounted up and go for a ride earlier this week. I set up the shock as per Dustybottom’s recommendations and figured after the ride I must’ve set something up incorrectly. When I go home I rechecked everything and found that I was spot on with the recommendations. So I figure that I must be misunderstanding something and hoping that you guys can correct me if I’m wrong. Here goes…

    1. “Fully open” on any of the adjustment knobs means that I am turning the knob counter-clockwise, with “fully closed” being the opposite.

    2. When adjusting the LSC and the LSR a click is simply a slight turn of the knob when you can feel and hear the indent on the adjustment.

    3. There are 25 clicks of adjustment for both the LSC and the LSR.

    4. When adjusting the HSC and the HSR a “turn” is a full rotation of the knob.

    5. The HSC and the HSR knobs have a range of 4 full turns.

    Have I got it right? If not, please let me know. In the meantime, I’m going to fiddle with it again tonight and see if I can’t get any closer to the nirvana that you’re all gushing about.
    Yes, all correct.

    Make sure your sag is right. I'm running about 35%+ and it feels fantastic! I liked the stock settings but I have messed with them and I run a few clicks less LSC than stock for some serious plushness. I backed the HSC way off for awhile then added some back in as I found it used all the travel on the bigger hits. I'm not really sure where I am now but it feels great. If I changed the rebound at all it was by a click or 2. I tend to run a slower rebound than most of my buds and I found the default to be pretty good.

  40. #140
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    Thanks Noel, that was a fantastic write up. Extremely clear and encouraging!

  41. #141
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    Excellent and well explained post Noel, thanks.
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  42. #142
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    Thanks Noel! Great post with LOTS of insight on shock tuning. Another 15 re-reads and hopefully I will understand shock tuning on much more profound level. Two quick questions:

    ...Also, different riders will have different ideas of how much sag they want; some will be down at 32% and others up to 35% and while that doesn’t sound like a lot of difference, it will be a lot when on the trail...

    ...Getting the correct spring rate is a bit of a feeling the bike out game: you'll figure it out eventually: the bike should ride level on flat terrain...
    Q: Do you feel that fork length (or A2C) affects the amount of sag required to make the bike feel level on level terrain (i.e. a longer fork lends itself to less sag)?

    HSR: this is possibly the hardest damper setting to tune accurately as it’s not always obvious and most customers (especially those new to the CCDB shocks) won’t have experience tuning this setting. The differences in your suspension’s performance are also generally not immediately obvious when adjusting the HSR as well (it is truly an “on trail” feel), contributing to the difficulty in tuning this. HSR controls how the bike reacts to sudden un-weighting of the rear suspension. This most often happens when hitting a jump and all of a sudden the bike’s rear shock goes from a fairly compressed state to a completely topped out position almost instantaneously. Too little LSR will lead to the dreaded “bucking” feeling when hitting lips on jumps, causing the front of the bike to nose dive. Too little HSR can also lead to bucking on hard landings, again where the bike will unload and want to pitch you forwards over the handle bar. Conversely too much HSR can make the bike feel “dead” when jumping. And, while lots of HSR could be nice when landing big drops, being over damped will make the bike land solidly, but not be ready for the next impact, making maintaining control difficult.
    Q: Should the LSR (bolded and underlined) be HSR?
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Thanks Noel! Great post with LOTS of insight on shock tuning. Another 15 re-reads and hopefully I will understand shock tuning on much more profound level. Two quick questions:



    Q: Do you feel that fork length (or A2C) affects the amount of sag required to make the bike feel level on level terrain (i.e. a longer fork lends itself to less sag)?

    Of course, increasing fork AC length could (and in most cases based on setup probably will) cause a weight shift towards the rear of the bike. 20mm of AC length roughly translates into 1 degree of head angle and about 7mm of BB height change.

    The "level ground" comment is a general feeling, not to be taken as the gospel. What I mean is that you can tell if you're centred on the bike, or if you're in a position that is artificially biased because of setup: if your fork is oversprung, then you're going to be biased towards the rear of the bike. If your rear suspension is sprung too stiff, then you're going to notice an un-natural feeling of being "pitched forward". These are the kinds of feelings that you want to get in touch with (ha ha!) to help get the fork and the rear shock sprung adequately and have sag set up properly. The bike as a whole is a system and even if the rear suspension is dialled, the front has to be set up correctly as well.


    Q: Should the LSR (bolded and underlined) be HSR?
    Yes definitely! Good catch and it's been fixed!
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  44. #144
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    Thanks so much, Noel. Thanks for answering an "obvious" questions. (Sadly, I'm "obviously" wrong too often not to ask them.)

    Before reading the Knolly forum I never realized that a bike can be setup to become an extension of the rider. I'm super stoked to the get my new Chilcotin DIALED. Your post helps immensely. Without it, I'm sure I would have spent this summer twisting dials and thinking "this DBair isn't as great as I thought it would be."
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  45. #145
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    Fark! My LSR knob turns infinitely! Clicks aren't consistent either with a half to full turn or more without any clicks then two straight in a row.

    I've had the bike on two rides now, but this is the first time I've gone to adjust anything other than sag.

    Anyone else have this issue? Should I not ride on it? Great way to start my weekend....

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by gapowell14 View Post
    Fark! My LSR knob turns infinitely! Clicks aren't consistent either with a half to full turn or more without any clicks then two straight in a row.

    I've had the bike on two rides now, but this is the first time I've gone to adjust anything other than sag.

    Anyone else have this issue? Should I not ride on it? Great way to start my weekend....

    Damn, bummer man. Sounds like you broke the detent mechanism that allows it to click.

    I've read about another guy or two doing this as well. Go read through the Mojo/DB Air thread in the Ibis forum, pretty sure that's where I read it. Apparently if you use a bit too much force you can break that mechanism. I've always been super carefull turning those jsut so I can hear and feel the clicks.

    Good luck, I'm sure Malcolm and the guys will take care of you. At least you didn't permanently scar yours up like I did mine.
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  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Damn, bummer man. Sounds like you broke the detent mechanism that allows it to click.

    I've read about another guy or two doing this as well. Go read through the Mojo/DB Air thread in the Ibis forum, pretty sure that's where I read it. Apparently if you use a bit too much force you can break that mechanism. I've always been super carefull turning those jsut so I can hear and feel the clicks.

    Good luck, I'm sure Malcolm and the guys will take care of you. At least you didn't permanently scar yours up like I did mine.
    There's no way I broke it. I was going dead slow and very careful. That's why it took me awhile to realize I was way past 25 clicks. I kept going until I counted about 20 more, and then knew I was ****ed. The knob it also sticking out more than the LSC, and was that way when I started adjusting.

  48. #148
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    Oh, hmmm. No idea then, sorry. I'd say a call to Malcolm at Cane Creek is in order.
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  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by spacebull1 View Post
    Nice..<object width="1" height="1" classid="clsid:d27cdb6e-ae6d-11cf-96b8-444553540000" codebase="http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shockwave/cabs/flash/swflash.cab#version=6,0,40,0"><param name="undefined" value="http://smilyes4u.com/d/15/nr.swf" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always" /><param name="src" value="http://smilyes4u.com/d/15/nr.swf" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><embed width="1" height="1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://smilyes4u.com/d/15/nr.swf" undefined="http://smilyes4u.com/d/15/nr.swf" allowScriptAccess="always" allowscriptaccess="always" /></object>

    Yeah, should be interesting to compare the two. I still can't find a 500 lb ti spring though...
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by gapowell14 View Post
    Fark! My LSR knob turns infinitely! Clicks aren't consistent either with a half to full turn or more without any clicks then two straight in a row.

    I've had the bike on two rides now, but this is the first time I've gone to adjust anything other than sag.

    Anyone else have this issue? Should I not ride on it? Great way to start my weekend....
    It happened to me. Try getting a screw driver and push the screw in while trying to tighten it. There is a little stopper ring that prevents the bolt from coming out. You opened it up too far. You just have to get the threads to catch to start closing it again. Careful though, as that little stopper ring is fragile. Mine backed out all the way and lost oil and pressure. I had to have it serviced and all the adjusters replaced and recharged with nitrogen.

    FYI....I NEVER use that CC tool anymore to adjust LSC or LSR. Those bolts are too fragile and that tool is overkill. I always use a little flat head screw driver now to fine tune it. You can almost turn those by hand/fingers.

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