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  1. #1
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    Building a Warden at 30lb or less

    But the catch is, it HAS to be full coil, run a dropper and run real-world tires (800g'ish).

    What do you all think, is it possible? What would the component make up look like?

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    I'm not sure how easy that would be to have all your requirements. For comparison, my Chili is full coil (Avy'd 55 up front, Avy'd Van RC w/ti spring in the rear) Thomson dropper, and Big Betty up front and Chunky Monkey out back (both 2.4, tubeless). It's also 1x10 with RF SixC cranks, King/Flow wheels, Crampon Ultimate pedals, etc. About the only thing I could do to lighten it up more is a carbon bar, and XTR cassette.

    And with all that, it's 33.8 lbs or so.
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  3. #3
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    Your Chilli's build would pretty much resemble the Warden build I'd imagine.

    Do you know the Chilli's frame weight? The little bit of info I can find on the Warden's weight is 6.75lbs w/CTD, I'm guessing it's a medium frame.

  4. #4
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    Eh, mine's a large and I think it's was 8.00 or so with a DB Air? I'm not 100% certain, someone else might have that number handy.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    But the catch is, it HAS to be full coil, run a dropper and run real-world tires (800g'ish).

    What do you all think, is it possible? What would the component make up look like?
    carbon rims, 190 hubs, SLR saddle, RF next SL cranks, kcnc 38 cassette, etc...

    here's a retailer that sells much of this type of stuff: Fairwheel Bikes, Cycling Boutique

    Heck, by my estimation you could get it down close to 26.5lbs...
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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    if you want to spend $10k

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    I think you could do it with uber light cranks, saddle, rims, hubs, etc, but as mentioned, it will be pricey. My Endo with carbon cranks, Hope M4s, average wheels, Thomson dropper, and Revelation fork comes in at 28.75lb I believe the demo Warden that was at Knollfest with XO1 1x11, PIKE and CCDBA was about 29lbs.
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  8. #8
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    You could do it, but there would be compromises and it would not match up well with the coil suspension.

  9. #9
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    Building a Warden at 30lb or less

    Why hell bent on coil ? A pike and ccdba would be a killer combo I'm sure.


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  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=wilks;10878311]Why hell bent on coil ? A pike and ccdba would be a killer combo I'm sure.

    I'm sure it would be killer, but I know what like, and it's not air. I do have fond memories of the Doroado though....

    Bang for your buck, out of the box coil will always out perform air, especially with rear shocks.

  11. #11
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    Maybe Ti coiled shock rear with Pike/34 front. Next SL crankset & Derby carbon wheels.

    I think the new Marz Ti coiled shock looks promising & is said to be the lightest coil shock on the market, im not sure on sizing & release date but it sure looks sweet... At that weight, you must make compromise.

  12. #12
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    I can't remember the exact weights (again, sorry), but my Avy'd Van RC with a Ti spring was only about 40g or so heavier than a CCDB Air I think. I measured these nearly a year ago, so I just cant' remember the numbers.
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  13. #13
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    Nice shock for sure, love how user tunable it is. Unfortunately doesn't look like it'll be offered in the Warden size

  14. #14
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    Is the Warden the same as the rest, 2.25" x 7.875"?
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Is the Warden the same as the rest, 2.25" x 7.875"?
    Yep Just check the shock options

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    carbon rims, 190 hubs, SLR saddle, RF next SL cranks, kcnc 38 cassette, etc...

    here's a retailer that sells much of this type of stuff: Fairwheel Bikes, Cycling Boutique

    Heck, by my estimation you could get it down close to 26.5lbs...
    That's a cool site, did you see how lite that Extralite Hyper rear hub is, 168g's! But for $600 fat ones, I'm not that crazy. (Yet)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    That's a cool site, did you see how lite that Extralite Hyper rear hub is, 168g's! But for $600 fat ones, I'm not that crazy. (Yet)
    Yep, but one can still make a damn light bike that is reasonably strong, I was specing it out with envy stem and bar, next SL or xx1 cranks, command post blacklite, tall mountain type carbon rims, etc.

    You can go WAY lighter with carbon saddles that have no padding, stupid light 130gx700mm handlebars, super minimalist brakes, etc.

    In the end, it's all about money, most people want a real light bike, but they don't want to spend the money that it takes to get there. To build those 28lb AM bikes with 6" of travel with solid builds takes some serious cash, any way you do it. Even at 30lbs it's pretty damn expensive. I dropped XX1 cranks into my ride, ditched the front D and shifter, switched to a smaller lighter cassette and went with a lightweight saddle. My bike has an air shock and all of this only gets it down to around 29.5lbs. Could I go way lighter without sacrificing strength? Sure. It's going to start costing a LOT of money real fast though. That's what it takes.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  18. #18
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    Outside of the XFusion Vengeance, are there any other legitimate 650B coil forks?
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Outside of the XFusion Vengeance, are there any other legitimate 650B coil forks?
    Exactly what I was just researching, it seems Xfusion is the only one around. And at 2494g's /5.5lbs sub 30lbs is gunna be tough.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    Yep, but one can still make a damn light bike that is reasonably strong, I was specing it out with envy stem and bar, next SL or xx1 cranks, command post blacklite, tall mountain type carbon rims, etc.

    You can go WAY lighter with carbon saddles that have no padding, stupid light 130gx700mm handlebars, super minimalist brakes, etc.

    In the end, it's all about money, most people want a real light bike, but they don't want to spend the money that it takes to get there. To build those 28lb AM bikes with 6" of travel with solid builds takes some serious cash, any way you do it. Even at 30lbs it's pretty damn expensive. I dropped XX1 cranks into my ride, ditched the front D and shifter, switched to a smaller lighter cassette and went with a lightweight saddle. My bike has an air shock and all of this only gets it down to around 29.5lbs. Could I go way lighter without sacrificing strength? Sure. It's going to start costing a LOT of money real fast though. That's what it takes.
    That's pretty f'n scary, just to drop 3-4lbs means one has to drop 2-3k on top of 3-4k. Suddenly 33lbs sounds just right....

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    That's pretty f'n scary, just to drop 3-4lbs means one has to drop 2-3k on top of 3-4k. Suddenly 33lbs sounds just right....
    I think with the standard XO1, dropper, PIKE and CCDBA build, you would be sitting right about 29lbs. I know you are looking for coil, but certainly something to consider. I have yet to hear any major complaints about the PIKE, and the CCDBA seems to be the pinnacle in an air shock.

    My Chili is about 35lbs full coil with dropper and it can be a handful on longer "epic chunky" rides we do in the winter. The Endo is a bit light for these duties (not due to the frame, but rather due to my build), and as such I am looking at a 29lb Warden to fill the gap. Another option high on my list is to drop a different fork and shock on the Endo and go 1x11.

    Anyone interested in buying a sweet Endo at a great price?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    Exactly what I was just researching, it seems Xfusion is the only one around. And at 2494g's /5.5lbs sub 30lbs is gunna be tough.
    grams pounds
    Frame 4100 9.03
    Fork 2452 5.40
    Headset 61 0.13
    Stem Envy Carbon 110 0.24
    Spacers ? 0.00
    Handlebar Envy Carbon 180 0.40
    Grips Lizard Skins 30 0.07
    LH Shifter None 0.00
    RH Shifter XT Pod 130 0.29
    Front Derailleur None 0.00
    Rear Deraillleur XT 208 0.46
    Bottom Bracket 0.00
    Crankset RF Next SL 560 1.23
    Pedals XTR? Trail? 370 0.81
    Chain Ultegra, whatever 230 0.51
    Cassette KCNC 11-38 196 0.43
    Seatpost Blacklite 550 1.21
    Seatpost QR Simple 20 0.04
    Saddle SLR? 130 0.29
    F Wheel Carbon rims, 2 sets of spokes, alloy nipples, 190 rear hub, 110 front 1477 3.25
    R Wheel 0 0.00
    F QR/Axle 0 0.00
    R QR/Axle 0 0.00
    F Tire 800 1.76
    R Tire 800 1.76
    F Tube None (sealant/strip) 100 0.22
    R Tube None (sealant/strip) 100 0.22
    F Brake Shimano XTR+203mm XT Splined Rotor 421 0.93
    R Brake XTR+160mm rotor 400 0.88
    Cable Housing+misc 200 0.44
    Total 13625g 30.01lbs
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  23. #23
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    Good gawd there sure is a lot of work being put into this thread. Cannot go coil on a limited budget and want lightweight...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post

    Anyone interested in buying a sweet Endo at a great price?
    Stretch it out to a large and I'll take it.
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  25. #25
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    I'd like to get the Warden down to 30lbs or less in a practical non-Platinum-VISA build. OTOH - I'm not going be unhappy if I am a bit heavier than expected.

    I'm okay with air suspension so that will help. Since I'm going to be waiting for the frame a while I'm just tackling a few parts at a time and trying to find the sweet spot in the price-weight-functionality curve before things get silly expensive.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    grams pounds
    Frame 4100 9.03
    Fork 2452 5.40
    Headset 61 0.13
    Stem Envy Carbon 110 0.24
    Spacers ? 0.00
    Handlebar Envy Carbon 180 0.40
    Grips Lizard Skins 30 0.07
    LH Shifter None 0.00
    RH Shifter XT Pod 130 0.29
    Front Derailleur None 0.00
    Rear Deraillleur XT 208 0.46
    Bottom Bracket 0.00
    Crankset RF Next SL 560 1.23
    Pedals XTR? Trail? 370 0.81
    Chain Ultegra, whatever 230 0.51
    Cassette KCNC 11-38 196 0.43
    Seatpost Blacklite 550 1.21
    Seatpost QR Simple 20 0.04
    Saddle SLR? 130 0.29
    F Wheel Carbon rims, 2 sets of spokes, alloy nipples, 190 rear hub, 110 front 1477 3.25
    R Wheel 0 0.00
    F QR/Axle 0 0.00
    R QR/Axle 0 0.00
    F Tire 800 1.76
    R Tire 800 1.76
    F Tube None (sealant/strip) 100 0.22
    R Tube None (sealant/strip) 100 0.22
    F Brake Shimano XTR+203mm XT Splined Rotor 421 0.93
    R Brake XTR+160mm rotor 400 0.88
    Cable Housing+misc 200 0.44
    Total 13625g 30.01lbs
    Looking at the build a couple of notes. First off I think you are being very optimistic with the wheel weights. Haven Carbons are 1450 grams in 26. Chinese carbon will not give you the durability that you want unless you are using at least 435 gram rims minimum. Second, the Shimano rotors are heavy. About 80 grams heavier than Formulas for the 203's. You can save the weight from the wheels with the rotor swap.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I'd like to get the Warden down to 30lbs or less in a practical non-Platinum-VISA build. OTOH - I'm not going be unhappy if I am a bit heavier than expected.

    I'm okay with air suspension so that will help. Since I'm going to be waiting for the frame a while I'm just tackling a few parts at a time and trying to find the sweet spot in the price-weight-functionality curve before things get silly expensive.
    I would focus on rotational weight, that is where it is felt the most. Next SL cranks and a good carbon wheelset and all good. The rest of the weight savings is nice but not a great deal.

  28. #28
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    30 pounds, 31 pounds, 32 pounds, 33 pounds.

    Does it really matter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkon11 View Post
    30 pounds, 31 pounds, 32 pounds, 33 pounds.

    Does it really matter?
    between 30 & 31,no. between 31 & 32,no. between 32 & 33, no. between 30 & 33, hell ya
    breezy shade

  30. #30
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    For what the bike is intended, hell yes it matters. Within reason...

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Eh, mine's a large and I think it's was 8.00 or so with a DB Air? I'm not 100% certain, someone else might have that number handy.
    Yeah mine was 8.01lbs too. I think the warden is supposed to be pound lighter with ctd so that helps. Still going to be tough getting to 30 with coil/coil.

    Jayem has a theoretical build down lower that's close. Not sure which coil shock he's using and there doesn't seem to be a bb.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    Yeah mine was 8.01lbs too. I think the warden is supposed to be pound lighter with ctd so that helps. Still going to be tough getting to 30 with coil/coil.

    Jayem has a theoretical build down lower that's close. Not sure which coil shock he's using and there doesn't seem to be a bb.
    8.01lbs with a CCDBA?

  33. #33
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    Ccdba's are heavy - my chilcotin was just over 8lbs with ccdba too.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilks View Post
    Ccdba's are heavy - my chilcotin was just over 8lbs with ccdba too.
    If memory serves they are 530g give or take with hardware in our size.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkon11 View Post
    30 pounds, 31 pounds, 32 pounds, 33 pounds.

    Does it really matter?
    I really don't think so. I mean, Enduro has a lot of gravity in amongst the stages and having a correctly tuned coil on both ends will not only perform better going down it'll perform just as good as a air shock/fork with a pedal platform going up. With the only penalty being 2-3lbs of weight, but that penalty only equals to better reliability.

    In all reality, I'd be pretty stoked to have a 33lb full coil steed stepping up to drop in on enduro stage. It would have to stop at 33lbs though.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    If memory serves they are 530g give or take with hardware in our size.
    Wow, that means that the Chilcotin is pretty darn lite as well, in the high 6lb to low 7lb range without a shock!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    Wow, that means that the Chilcotin is pretty darn lite as well, in the high 6lb to low 7lb range without a shock!
    7.5lbs claimed, medium with CTD. I suspect it could be less as my Chili was 8.5lbs with CCDB coil which is about 1.5lbs heavier than a CTD. The raw frames are a tad bit lighter.
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  38. #38
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    I think it's safe to say that a large Warden frame would roughly weigh 7lbs without shock....

    So just for ****s and giggles -

    Frame - 7lbs / 3175g's
    Shock , Avy Woddie - 1lb / 453
    Ti spring 400lb (from Ti springs.com) - .804lbs /356g's
    Fork, Xfusion Vengeance - 5.5lbs / 2494g's
    Dropper post, Vencum Moeloc 200mm - 1.23lb / 560g's
    Maxxis 3C Maxx Terra x 2 - 3.62lb / 1642g's

    Total - 19.15lbs / 8680g's

    When I have a little more time I'll dig up more boring numbers

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcrs View Post
    8.01lbs with a CCDBA?
    My mistake. It was 8 lbs 9 oz with ccdba, rear axle. iscg tabs, and head set cups, if I'm reading this scale correctly.

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/19516547@N04/8543299553/" title="IMG_0193 by kentsaundra, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8102/8543299553_ec8bb26a8e_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="IMG_0193"></a>

    And here's a picture of the demo I rode in Sedona (I think) with air front and rear, Pike, etc, that Dusty said weighed 29 lbs. It didn't feel any heavier than that.
    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/19516547@N04/11291740504/" title="SAM_0719 by kentsaundra, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5513/11291740504_01e2fbae36_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="SAM_0719"></a>
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    A nice round 30 lbs sounds great on internet forums but it doesn't mean anything on the trail. I'm not usually THAT guy who says things like this, but it's very much true. I had 30 lbs in my mind as a goal when I built my Chili (came in at 30.4), it's now at about 31.5 and will be 32ish next year. There's nothing wrong with hoping for a certain wait but it should never affect your component choices.

    Pick that parts that make sense for your intended use and budget. The weight will be what it will be. Choosing parts for weight rather than performance will NEVER make your bike more fun to ride, nor faster.

  41. #41
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    Building a Warden at 30lb or less

    8lb 9 oz sounds right. Mine was a raw medium and was weighed without headset, through axle or seat post collar but with ccdba. For the people used to metric weights there are16 oz in a pound.


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    Raw/large Chilcotin with axle/bolt on parts and DBair was 8 pounds 2 ounces out of the box.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubba13 View Post
    Raw/large Chilcotin with axle/bolt on parts and DBair was 8 pounds 2 ounces out of the box.
    Out of the box Small Painted Chilco. Rp23.

    Building a Warden at 30lb or less-clilco.jpg

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    Not sure why, unless you are less than 10% body fat composition, you would be concerned about three pounds of bike weight. Getting rid of that three pounds on a bike will be $$$$$. Getting rid of three pounds from the rider and their gear would be much less costly.

  45. #45
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    Building a Warden at 30lb or less

    I hear that argument a lot and agree. However, I have two bikes that are 4lbs apart and on longer rides I have more left in the tank if I take the lighter bike. I could definitely use 15 less pounds of body weight too


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  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    And here's a picture of the demo I rode in Sedona (I think) with air front and rear, Pike, etc, that Dusty said weighed 29 lbs. It didn't feel any heavier than that.
    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/19516547@N04/11291740504/" title="SAM_0719 by kentsaundra, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5513/11291740504_01e2fbae36_c.jpg" width="800" height="600" alt="SAM_0719"></a>
    This bike weighs in at 29.23 pounds on my scale. A couple easy places to lose weight would be:
    Carbon instead of aluminum bars

    Lighter grips - Those OURY grips are chunky

    Lighter tires - These are the Maxxis TR 2.3 tires. I believe both tires weigh well over 800 gr. My 26" Maxxis TR weighed 880 and 770 for a HR2 and DHR respectively. I really like these new Maxxis tires, but if weight savings is a priority you could probably save about 50 gr per tire and still have a capably tire.

    Lighter rear shock - the AVA CTD might be a possible choice.

    Thats easily a pound!

    Its going to be fun to check out these Warden builds.

  47. #47
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    DB Air weights (543g): Chilcotin + Cane Creek Double Barrel Air

    That's with the old longer top hardware, so figure a bit less with the short hardware for 3d rockers. A CTD is nearly a 1/2 pound lighter, so as Tim said, an Avy'd CTD might be a good option.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    DB Air weights (543g): Chilcotin + Cane Creek Double Barrel Air

    That's with the old longer top hardware, so figure a bit less with the short hardware for 3d rockers. A CTD is nearly a 1/2 pound lighter, so as Tim said, an Avy'd CTD might be a good option.
    Really curious to see how the Avy CTD works out. Could be a game changer for the weight conscious.

    Throw in some carbon rims and you could have a 28lb Warden with dropper that rips. Seems like the near perfect "one" bike....hmmmmm....
    Employed by Pivot Cycles - www.pivotcycles.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiSS'er View Post
    Really curious to see how the Avy CTD works out. Could be a game changer for the weight conscious.

    Throw in some carbon rims and you could have a 28lb Warden with dropper that rips. Seems like the near perfect "one" bike....hmmmmm....
    What rims are you thinking about?

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    Enve's? They would be awesome, but the $900/rim or whatever is pretty hard to justify.
    If jackasses could fly this place would be an airport.

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