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  1. #1
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    650B Endo, who's In?

    Ok, I am finally thinking I am set with bikes. I LOVE my Chilcotin, My Endo is mind blowing and I am thinking how could I ask for anything more? I'm totally set. Right? Well, then i start thinking of the 650b thing again and then the bronson drops and i start really thinking what it would take for me to spend my money on a new bike in 2013. then i read in "rock shox revelation question" thread that a 650b endo is set for release this year and it "might" be carbon?! ......i think i just had a accident in my pants!.... For my money, it HAS to be carbon. its not enough to swap my 26 Endo for the a 650 Endo in the same material. ... but if it's carbon at 5 pounds (frame only) xx1, and is that new pike 650b? tons of new 650 tires within days .... WTF? Now i am thinking about livin out of my van, taking a second job, and loving ramen noodles!

    what the rest of you Knolly geeks thinking?

  2. #2
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    I'll put my hand up for a 650b Endo....ali or carbon, but then I don't have the present 26 in version. I suppose given the choice I would go for carbon but from my limited experience a frame made of carbon feels quite different, smoother, damped but less alive? Is this other peoples findings? Technically I guess there are big advantages to using carbon though.

  3. #3
    Knollician
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    a 650B carbon Endo would be interesting for sure.
    "Three balls at once...who knew?" - Cotton McKnight

  4. #4
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    A friend's theory on upgrades: "You only need to upgrade if you break something or you're the slowest rider in your group of friends."

  5. #5
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    +1 for a 'rumoured' 650b Endo.

    The number of stones and small rocks i heard bouncing up and clinking on the alu chili frame the other day made me wonder the viability of carbon on UK trails. Id buy carbon only if it can be confirmed as tough/or tougher than Aluminium (which im lead to believe is possible).

    Ideal build for thyself would be with Bos Deville forks (650b 150mm, also 'rumoured' to drop this year), Bos Vipr shock and 2014 XX1 drivetrains (cheaper versions have also been 'rumoured').

    Nice if it materialised before this time next year, but not in a hurry / will wait for it... one has a Chili here.
    Last edited by cfrench; 04-14-2013 at 08:59 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    Now i am thinking about livin out of my van, taking a second job, and loving ramen noodles!

    what the rest of you Knolly geeks thinking?
    Wait, I thought you were already doing that.

    Sounds like a perfect complement to my chilcotin. I could build the chili up bigger/burlier for the gnarl and have the carbon 650 endo for the rest.

    Better start saving cause I've got nothing left to sell to finance the 650 endo......except the 300xcw and I'm not sure I'm ready for that.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    Sounds like a perfect complement to my chilcotin. I could build the chili up bigger/burlier for the gnarl and have the carbon 650 endo for the rest.
    thats the plan here too

  8. #8
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    It will be interesting to see what the specs are on the 650b Endo. It seems like 150 mm is becoming the sweet spot. The top 650 forks are also 150-160.

    I'm definitely interested in a carbon Endo but if it split the diffence in travel between my Endo and Chili I'm not sure what I would do. Would it be good enough to replace both?

    TG

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    Would it be good enough to replace both?
    I mean this really depends on the terrain you ride, how often you ride different terrains, your style of riding each terrain, and whats fun or practical for 'you'.

    The more variations the better.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    It will be interesting to see what the specs are on the 650b Endo. It seems like 150 mm is becoming the sweet spot. The top 650 forks are also 150-160.

    I'm definitely interested in a carbon Endo but if it split the diffence in travel between my Endo and Chili I'm not sure what I would do. Would it be good enough to replace both?

    TG
    Interesting question. I have always been a fan of a 2 bike stable for our terrain, but I was quite happy with my original Endo as a one bike. I'm no so sure I could get rid of my Chili though. But a 150mm 650B would be pretty darn sweet!
    "Three balls at once...who knew?" - Cotton McKnight

  11. #11
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    My next bike will be a 650b and I wouldn't mind if it was a carbon Endo.

    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    ......except the 300xcw and I'm not sure I'm ready for that.
    Picked up a 450 xcw earlier this year. First moto. Love it. Bring your 300 next time you come out.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchcr View Post
    +1 for a 'rumoured' 650b Endo.

    The number of stones and small rocks i heard bouncing up and clinking on the alu chili frame the other day made me wonder the viability of carbon on UK trails. Id buy carbon only if it can be confirmed as tough/or tougher than Aluminium (which im lead to believe is possible).

    Ideal build for thyself would be with Bos Deville forks (650b 150mm, also 'rumoured' to drop this year), Bos Vipr shock and 2014 XX1 drivetrains (cheaper versions have also been 'rumoured').

    Nice if it materialised before this time next year, but not in a hurry / will wait for it... one has a Chili here.

    The following confirms what was only a rumour before. BOS have a 650b Deville Fork in the wing:
    SOC13: BOS Introduces New 27.5/650B, Enduro Specific Fork & Shock, Plus Weights - Bike Rumor
    They also have a new Enduro shock, 'The Kirk', which is an advancement to the awesome VIPR shock.
    Ive also been told the 650b Endo 'has been confirmed' for a release around September. Thats come from Knolly.
    BOS now has a US distributor incase any Knolites want to give this brand a go.

  13. #13
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    frenchcr, thanks for the info....all very interesting. They also mentioned they are working on a 29 inch fork.

  14. #14
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    Yeah I just got msg from the Aus importer and he said the same as frenchcr, late this year early next. As a side note he said he has heard nothing about carbon. One reason is probably being due to Noel being stoked about the srength/stiffness he is getting from Aluminium.

  15. #15
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    A 650b Endorphin sounds pretty great, but I doubt I'd replace (or supplement) my current '13 endo with one. Carbon might tempt me, but it sounds like that's not in the works, at least not for now. If I didn't already have the endo, the choice between the two would definitely be interesting and difficult...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by beefmagic View Post
    A 650b Endorphin sounds pretty great, but I doubt I'd replace (or supplement) my current '13 endo with one. Carbon might tempt me, but it sounds like that's not in the works, at least not for now. If I didn't already have the endo, the choice between the two would definitely be interesting and difficult...
    Yeah. Interesting comparing 650b and 26, for sure.

    Lets try and unravel it..

    If im right, id say it comes down to 4 factors: 'Cost', 'Weight', 'Speed' and 'Feel'. There is a 5th unknown: Handling, but i wouldnt know how to look at 'Handling' without it being a function of the 'Speed' variable.

    I dont think it makes 'financial sense' in swapping out the current derivative of the endo for a 650b model (carbon or not)...unless someone can attach an 'unambigous proposed benefit' to one of the factors above, most likely 'Speed' or 'Feel' (as clearly 'Cost' and 'Weight' are not benefits of 650b).

    Carbon might make a lighter bike but where does the need come in (stiffness?), as an alu ENDO (26 or 650b) can be built to 25-26lbs. When you get below that weight, IMO, 24lb, the bike can actually feel too light for some, i.e. it doesnt feel as planted (some say 'skitish') especially in the wet, and the associated components are not as durable.

    In terms of 'Speed'...650b is allegedly, marginally faster. But are you already going flatout everywhere that you need this small speed boost? Are you racing others? Could you pedal a little more?

    As for the other factor, 'Feel'. Who knows? I, and nobody i know, have ever rode both on 'literally the same bike', so i cant say myself. But one thing i have noticed is that i have not seen or heard a report from anyone who says '650b is just so much more Fun'.

    The most evidence anybody has ever produced is that 650b does roll over larger rocks better. But the argument against this is: 'If you wanted to go faster, why dont you just ride smoother trails?'.

    Anybody want to try and unravel this any further?
    Last edited by cfrench; 04-20-2013 at 08:32 PM.

  17. #17
    TSC
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    Why not a 29er Endo?

    My argument:

    --A 29er segments the Endo market (i.e. a 29er and 26er Endo can coexist because of varying customer desires); while a 650b would cannibalize most of the 26er market and would probably require Knolly to quit making the 26er because of cost reasons (yes, I picked a winner without backing it with data).

    --The death of the 26er would upset: 1) 26er fans; 2) those who just bought a bike that was "obsoleted"; and 3) the designer who put lots of hours into designing the new 26er Endo just to see it go away so quickly even while getting rave reviews.
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Why not a 29er Endo?

    My argument:

    --A 29er segments the Endo market (i.e. a 29er and 26er Endo can coexist because of varying customer desires); while a 650b would cannibalize most of the 26er market and would probably require Knolly to quit making the 26er because of cost reasons (yes, I picked a winner without backing it with data).

    --The death of the 26er would upset: 1) 26er fans; 2) those who just bought a bike that was "obsoleted"; and 3) the designer who put lots of hours into designing the new 26er Endo just to see it go away so quickly even while getting rave reviews.
    I'd be all over a 140mm 29er.
    "Three balls at once...who knew?" - Cotton McKnight

  19. #19
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    I'm all for a 650b Endo. I want something that's not a 29er for XC/Trail riding, and while the Endo 6er fits the bill, I do like how 9ers roll (but not how they handle). I figure a 650B'er gets me some of the roll with some of the flickability on a suspension system I'm a huge fan of.

    Unless Noel can pull off an Enduro 29er style chainstay length or wants a true XC type bike in the line up, doesn't make much sense for a 29er. I really liked my sultan(s mk I and mk II and mk II.5), but it was just too long of a bike when I gets fast flowy AND tight; the Trigger 1 I have now is definitely an improvement, but still compromises and just isn't as "zippy" as the Chili or Enduro 6er I have.

    Carbon or Alu 650B would be perfect with some Stan's Flows, 140-160MM 34ish stanchion fork with XX1... WANT, NOW!

    Edit: PS... I think Banshee is on to something with the drop out swapability between 6 and 650... just imagine those old Tachs and DTs with their swappable droppout/axles.

  20. #20
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    Noal has it sorted.

  21. #21
    TSC
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    I'm all for a 650b Endo. I want something that's not a 29er for XC/Trail riding, and while the Endo 6er fits the bill, I do like how 9ers roll (but not how they handle). I figure a 650B'er gets me some of the roll with some of the flickability on a suspension system I'm a huge fan of.

    Unless Noel can pull off an Enduro 29er style chainstay length or wants a true XC type bike in the line up, doesn't make much sense for a 29er. I really liked my sultan(s mk I and mk II and mk II.5), but it was just too long of a bike when I gets fast flowy AND tight; the Trigger 1 I have now is definitely an improvement, but still compromises and just isn't as "zippy" as the Chili or Enduro 6er I have.
    I agree that a 650b Endo would be a great bike. My post was about business strategy; and not about bike performance. Also, it was about short-term product development (i.e. I might want to phase out the 26er Endo in another 3 to 5 years and replace it with a 650b Endo).

    Intentionally, or unintentionally, your post is a perfect example of why if I were Noel of Knolly bikes I would NOT build a 650b Endo in the near future. You're the customer that wants incremental improvement on the 26er and see the 650b as that improvement; so you would buy the 650b instead of the 26er (i.e. cannibalize 26er sales). Furthermore, I would worry that a 650b Endo would be "enough" bike that people didn't see a need to purchase a Chili.

    If you were to put the different riding styles on spectrum along with the potential product offerings, I (thinking as a product manager) would think that the buyers would see this:

    |--------XC--------AM--------FR-------DH--------|
    |-----29er Endo-----|
    ..|------650 Endo-------|
    .....|----26er Endo----|
    ..........|-------26er Chili-------|
    ...................................|-------Podium--------|

    (NOTE: the periods before the "|" are just so I can get the editor to display the bikes at the correct positions along the spectrum. The editor treats multiple blank spaces as a single blank space.)

    A 650b Endo would:
    1) Cannibalize 26er Endo sales; and
    2) Not dramatically increase my customer base.

    A 29er Endo would:
    1) Increase my customer base by targeting a different demographic;
    2) Differentiate itself more from a 26er Endo more than would a 650b Endo (therefore, not cannibalizing as many sales); and
    3) Encourage more 2 or 3 bike quivers (as a company I want you to buy more of my products, not less).

    Obviously, my argument (and graph) show my belief that the larger 650b tire would add more to both ends of the Endo performance spectrum. I think the XC side is not in dispute. And, if one doesn't share the belief that the 650b will improve AM performance then it's hard to justify a 650b Endo in the first place.

    Anywho... that's why I wouldn't do it right now; but I'm not Noel.
    Last edited by TSC; 04-25-2013 at 01:47 PM.
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  22. #22
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    A lot of these arguments are why I think the Endo will be 150mm of travel. This also leaves room for a trail 29er in the 125mm range.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    I agree that a 650b Endo would be a great bike. My post was about business strategy; and not about bike performance. Also, it was about short-term product development (i.e. I might want to phase out the 26er Endo in another 3 to 5 years and replace it with a 650b Endo).

    Intentionally, or unintentionally, your post is a perfect example of why if I were Noel of Knolly bikes I would NOT build a 650b Endo in the near future. You're the customer that wants incremental improvement on the 26er and see the 650b as that improvement; so you would buy the 650b instead of the 26er (i.e. cannibalize 26er sales). Furthermore, I would worry that a 650b Endo would be "enough" bike that people didn't see a need to purchase a Chili.

    If you were to put the different riding styles on spectrum along with the potential product offerings, I (thinking as a product manager) would think that the buyers would see this:

    |--------XC--------AM--------FR-------DH--------|
    |-----29er Endo-----|
    ..|------650 Endo-------|
    .....|----26er Endo----|
    ..........|-------26er Chili-------|
    ...................................|-------Podium--------|

    (NOTE: the periods before the "|" are just so I can get the editor to display the bikes at the correct positions along the spectrum. The editor treats multiple blank spaces as a single blank space.)

    A 650b Endo would:
    1) Cannibalize 26er Endo sales; and
    2) Not dramatically increase my customer base.

    A 29er Endo would:
    1) Increase my customer base by targeting a different demographic;
    2) Differentiate itself more from a 26er Endo more than would a 650b Endo (therefore, not cannibalizing as many sales); and
    3) Encourage more 2 or 3 bike quivers (as a company I want you to buy more of my products, not less).

    Obviously, my argument (and graph) show my belief that the larger 650b tire would add more to both ends of the Endo performance spectrum. I think the XC side is not in dispute. And, if one doesn't share the belief that the 650b will improve AM performance then it's hard to justify a 650b Endo in the first place.

    Anywho... that's why I wouldn't do it right now; but I'm not Noel.

  23. #23
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    Understood, I'd say that there's a more complimentary than destructive aspect to the Endo B, if you have the 6er and you're on it as your trail bike or want one, you've already decided you don't want a 650B or 29er for whatever reason. Probably because they just don't handle same as the 6er variety, Knolly has never been about chasing trends and market but dialing in product space they really know.

    The 9er would definitely bring new buyers into the Knolly fold, but unless it handles/pedals like an Endo, which handles/peddles like a small Chili, which handles/pedals like a small Podium, then its destructive to the brand. Not saying we want to ride the same bike, but I think we buy Knolly bikes because they have very distinct characteristics and they're best in class.

    If you're a Knolly rider looking for a bit more of the roll and willing to go outside of 6er, 650b is safest move for Knolly to go in, same same but different to 6er where as the engineering challenges on a 9er might end up with too many compromises.

    Adding a 29er that's not dialed to descend and rip like all the others wouldn't make much sense since Knolly has never tried to play complete segmentation coverage. I do want to try the new Enduro 29, have a buddy getting one in the coming weeks and I'll see if I have same hang ups with it as I've developed over the years on other 29ers. If thats as sweet as the 26 Enduro, then that's an easy choice and I'd say knolly should go that direction all day long. But until Knolly can deliver that sweet ride in a 29 platform, I'm happy to go with 650B for the extra XC edge in the meantime.

    (just discussing here, lots of angles... and I think 650b gives your more XC zoom than AM, or else I'd stick to 26 all day)

  24. #24
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    Food for thought (assuming very flexible bike budgets):

    Get 26er Endo, go to Fox 34 or Pike 650B 150MM fork (assuming the 10MM less from top spec'ed Endo fork keeps geo "true" in that a2c is still within spec), run 650B front, and 26 rear. When/if 650B endo comes along, sell frame and re-build rear wheel to 650B swap everything to Endo B ride into sunset.

    Thoughts assuming Endo out and Endo in doesn't kill wallet (i.e. used Endo if there is one out there)? Would you do it?

    I think you'd get a flavor for the 650B without killing the Endo geo and your wallet if you're committed to eventually running 650 B (i.e. fork, 2 hoops + wheel build).

  25. #25
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    I'm glad Noel runs the company instead of mtbr. Lets go ride our bad ass bikes and leave the strategic planning to him.

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