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  1. #1
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    650B Endo, who's In?

    Ok, I am finally thinking I am set with bikes. I LOVE my Chilcotin, My Endo is mind blowing and I am thinking how could I ask for anything more? I'm totally set. Right? Well, then i start thinking of the 650b thing again and then the bronson drops and i start really thinking what it would take for me to spend my money on a new bike in 2013. then i read in "rock shox revelation question" thread that a 650b endo is set for release this year and it "might" be carbon?! ......i think i just had a accident in my pants!.... For my money, it HAS to be carbon. its not enough to swap my 26 Endo for the a 650 Endo in the same material. ... but if it's carbon at 5 pounds (frame only) xx1, and is that new pike 650b? tons of new 650 tires within days .... WTF? Now i am thinking about livin out of my van, taking a second job, and loving ramen noodles!

    what the rest of you Knolly geeks thinking?

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    I'll put my hand up for a 650b Endo....ali or carbon, but then I don't have the present 26 in version. I suppose given the choice I would go for carbon but from my limited experience a frame made of carbon feels quite different, smoother, damped but less alive? Is this other peoples findings? Technically I guess there are big advantages to using carbon though.

  3. #3
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    a 650B carbon Endo would be interesting for sure.
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    A friend's theory on upgrades: "You only need to upgrade if you break something or you're the slowest rider in your group of friends."

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    +1 for a 'rumoured' 650b Endo.

    The number of stones and small rocks i heard bouncing up and clinking on the alu chili frame the other day made me wonder the viability of carbon on UK trails. Id buy carbon only if it can be confirmed as tough/or tougher than Aluminium (which im lead to believe is possible).

    Ideal build for thyself would be with Bos Deville forks (650b 150mm, also 'rumoured' to drop this year), Bos Vipr shock and 2014 XX1 drivetrains (cheaper versions have also been 'rumoured').

    Nice if it materialised before this time next year, but not in a hurry / will wait for it... one has a Chili here.
    Last edited by cfrench; 04-14-2013 at 08:59 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    Now i am thinking about livin out of my van, taking a second job, and loving ramen noodles!

    what the rest of you Knolly geeks thinking?
    Wait, I thought you were already doing that.

    Sounds like a perfect complement to my chilcotin. I could build the chili up bigger/burlier for the gnarl and have the carbon 650 endo for the rest.

    Better start saving cause I've got nothing left to sell to finance the 650 endo......except the 300xcw and I'm not sure I'm ready for that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    Sounds like a perfect complement to my chilcotin. I could build the chili up bigger/burlier for the gnarl and have the carbon 650 endo for the rest.
    thats the plan here too

  8. #8
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    It will be interesting to see what the specs are on the 650b Endo. It seems like 150 mm is becoming the sweet spot. The top 650 forks are also 150-160.

    I'm definitely interested in a carbon Endo but if it split the diffence in travel between my Endo and Chili I'm not sure what I would do. Would it be good enough to replace both?

    TG

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    Would it be good enough to replace both?
    I mean this really depends on the terrain you ride, how often you ride different terrains, your style of riding each terrain, and whats fun or practical for 'you'.

    The more variations the better.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    It will be interesting to see what the specs are on the 650b Endo. It seems like 150 mm is becoming the sweet spot. The top 650 forks are also 150-160.

    I'm definitely interested in a carbon Endo but if it split the diffence in travel between my Endo and Chili I'm not sure what I would do. Would it be good enough to replace both?

    TG
    Interesting question. I have always been a fan of a 2 bike stable for our terrain, but I was quite happy with my original Endo as a one bike. I'm no so sure I could get rid of my Chili though. But a 150mm 650B would be pretty darn sweet!
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  11. #11
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    My next bike will be a 650b and I wouldn't mind if it was a carbon Endo.

    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    ......except the 300xcw and I'm not sure I'm ready for that.
    Picked up a 450 xcw earlier this year. First moto. Love it. Bring your 300 next time you come out.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchcr View Post
    +1 for a 'rumoured' 650b Endo.

    The number of stones and small rocks i heard bouncing up and clinking on the alu chili frame the other day made me wonder the viability of carbon on UK trails. Id buy carbon only if it can be confirmed as tough/or tougher than Aluminium (which im lead to believe is possible).

    Ideal build for thyself would be with Bos Deville forks (650b 150mm, also 'rumoured' to drop this year), Bos Vipr shock and 2014 XX1 drivetrains (cheaper versions have also been 'rumoured').

    Nice if it materialised before this time next year, but not in a hurry / will wait for it... one has a Chili here.

    The following confirms what was only a rumour before. BOS have a 650b Deville Fork in the wing:
    SOC13: BOS Introduces New 27.5/650B, Enduro Specific Fork & Shock, Plus Weights - Bike Rumor
    They also have a new Enduro shock, 'The Kirk', which is an advancement to the awesome VIPR shock.
    Ive also been told the 650b Endo 'has been confirmed' for a release around September. Thats come from Knolly.
    BOS now has a US distributor incase any Knolites want to give this brand a go.

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    frenchcr, thanks for the info....all very interesting. They also mentioned they are working on a 29 inch fork.

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    Yeah I just got msg from the Aus importer and he said the same as frenchcr, late this year early next. As a side note he said he has heard nothing about carbon. One reason is probably being due to Noel being stoked about the srength/stiffness he is getting from Aluminium.

  15. #15
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    A 650b Endorphin sounds pretty great, but I doubt I'd replace (or supplement) my current '13 endo with one. Carbon might tempt me, but it sounds like that's not in the works, at least not for now. If I didn't already have the endo, the choice between the two would definitely be interesting and difficult...

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    Quote Originally Posted by beefmagic View Post
    A 650b Endorphin sounds pretty great, but I doubt I'd replace (or supplement) my current '13 endo with one. Carbon might tempt me, but it sounds like that's not in the works, at least not for now. If I didn't already have the endo, the choice between the two would definitely be interesting and difficult...
    Yeah. Interesting comparing 650b and 26, for sure.

    Lets try and unravel it..

    If im right, id say it comes down to 4 factors: 'Cost', 'Weight', 'Speed' and 'Feel'. There is a 5th unknown: Handling, but i wouldnt know how to look at 'Handling' without it being a function of the 'Speed' variable.

    I dont think it makes 'financial sense' in swapping out the current derivative of the endo for a 650b model (carbon or not)...unless someone can attach an 'unambigous proposed benefit' to one of the factors above, most likely 'Speed' or 'Feel' (as clearly 'Cost' and 'Weight' are not benefits of 650b).

    Carbon might make a lighter bike but where does the need come in (stiffness?), as an alu ENDO (26 or 650b) can be built to 25-26lbs. When you get below that weight, IMO, 24lb, the bike can actually feel too light for some, i.e. it doesnt feel as planted (some say 'skitish') especially in the wet, and the associated components are not as durable.

    In terms of 'Speed'...650b is allegedly, marginally faster. But are you already going flatout everywhere that you need this small speed boost? Are you racing others? Could you pedal a little more?

    As for the other factor, 'Feel'. Who knows? I, and nobody i know, have ever rode both on 'literally the same bike', so i cant say myself. But one thing i have noticed is that i have not seen or heard a report from anyone who says '650b is just so much more Fun'.

    The most evidence anybody has ever produced is that 650b does roll over larger rocks better. But the argument against this is: 'If you wanted to go faster, why dont you just ride smoother trails?'.

    Anybody want to try and unravel this any further?
    Last edited by cfrench; 04-20-2013 at 08:32 PM.

  17. #17
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    Why not a 29er Endo?

    My argument:

    --A 29er segments the Endo market (i.e. a 29er and 26er Endo can coexist because of varying customer desires); while a 650b would cannibalize most of the 26er market and would probably require Knolly to quit making the 26er because of cost reasons (yes, I picked a winner without backing it with data).

    --The death of the 26er would upset: 1) 26er fans; 2) those who just bought a bike that was "obsoleted"; and 3) the designer who put lots of hours into designing the new 26er Endo just to see it go away so quickly even while getting rave reviews.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Why not a 29er Endo?

    My argument:

    --A 29er segments the Endo market (i.e. a 29er and 26er Endo can coexist because of varying customer desires); while a 650b would cannibalize most of the 26er market and would probably require Knolly to quit making the 26er because of cost reasons (yes, I picked a winner without backing it with data).

    --The death of the 26er would upset: 1) 26er fans; 2) those who just bought a bike that was "obsoleted"; and 3) the designer who put lots of hours into designing the new 26er Endo just to see it go away so quickly even while getting rave reviews.
    I'd be all over a 140mm 29er.
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  19. #19
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    I'm all for a 650b Endo. I want something that's not a 29er for XC/Trail riding, and while the Endo 6er fits the bill, I do like how 9ers roll (but not how they handle). I figure a 650B'er gets me some of the roll with some of the flickability on a suspension system I'm a huge fan of.

    Unless Noel can pull off an Enduro 29er style chainstay length or wants a true XC type bike in the line up, doesn't make much sense for a 29er. I really liked my sultan(s mk I and mk II and mk II.5), but it was just too long of a bike when I gets fast flowy AND tight; the Trigger 1 I have now is definitely an improvement, but still compromises and just isn't as "zippy" as the Chili or Enduro 6er I have.

    Carbon or Alu 650B would be perfect with some Stan's Flows, 140-160MM 34ish stanchion fork with XX1... WANT, NOW!

    Edit: PS... I think Banshee is on to something with the drop out swapability between 6 and 650... just imagine those old Tachs and DTs with their swappable droppout/axles.

  20. #20
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    Noal has it sorted.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    I'm all for a 650b Endo. I want something that's not a 29er for XC/Trail riding, and while the Endo 6er fits the bill, I do like how 9ers roll (but not how they handle). I figure a 650B'er gets me some of the roll with some of the flickability on a suspension system I'm a huge fan of.

    Unless Noel can pull off an Enduro 29er style chainstay length or wants a true XC type bike in the line up, doesn't make much sense for a 29er. I really liked my sultan(s mk I and mk II and mk II.5), but it was just too long of a bike when I gets fast flowy AND tight; the Trigger 1 I have now is definitely an improvement, but still compromises and just isn't as "zippy" as the Chili or Enduro 6er I have.
    I agree that a 650b Endo would be a great bike. My post was about business strategy; and not about bike performance. Also, it was about short-term product development (i.e. I might want to phase out the 26er Endo in another 3 to 5 years and replace it with a 650b Endo).

    Intentionally, or unintentionally, your post is a perfect example of why if I were Noel of Knolly bikes I would NOT build a 650b Endo in the near future. You're the customer that wants incremental improvement on the 26er and see the 650b as that improvement; so you would buy the 650b instead of the 26er (i.e. cannibalize 26er sales). Furthermore, I would worry that a 650b Endo would be "enough" bike that people didn't see a need to purchase a Chili.

    If you were to put the different riding styles on spectrum along with the potential product offerings, I (thinking as a product manager) would think that the buyers would see this:

    |--------XC--------AM--------FR-------DH--------|
    |-----29er Endo-----|
    ..|------650 Endo-------|
    .....|----26er Endo----|
    ..........|-------26er Chili-------|
    ...................................|-------Podium--------|

    (NOTE: the periods before the "|" are just so I can get the editor to display the bikes at the correct positions along the spectrum. The editor treats multiple blank spaces as a single blank space.)

    A 650b Endo would:
    1) Cannibalize 26er Endo sales; and
    2) Not dramatically increase my customer base.

    A 29er Endo would:
    1) Increase my customer base by targeting a different demographic;
    2) Differentiate itself more from a 26er Endo more than would a 650b Endo (therefore, not cannibalizing as many sales); and
    3) Encourage more 2 or 3 bike quivers (as a company I want you to buy more of my products, not less).

    Obviously, my argument (and graph) show my belief that the larger 650b tire would add more to both ends of the Endo performance spectrum. I think the XC side is not in dispute. And, if one doesn't share the belief that the 650b will improve AM performance then it's hard to justify a 650b Endo in the first place.

    Anywho... that's why I wouldn't do it right now; but I'm not Noel.
    Last edited by TSC; 04-25-2013 at 01:47 PM.
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  22. #22
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    A lot of these arguments are why I think the Endo will be 150mm of travel. This also leaves room for a trail 29er in the 125mm range.

    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    I agree that a 650b Endo would be a great bike. My post was about business strategy; and not about bike performance. Also, it was about short-term product development (i.e. I might want to phase out the 26er Endo in another 3 to 5 years and replace it with a 650b Endo).

    Intentionally, or unintentionally, your post is a perfect example of why if I were Noel of Knolly bikes I would NOT build a 650b Endo in the near future. You're the customer that wants incremental improvement on the 26er and see the 650b as that improvement; so you would buy the 650b instead of the 26er (i.e. cannibalize 26er sales). Furthermore, I would worry that a 650b Endo would be "enough" bike that people didn't see a need to purchase a Chili.

    If you were to put the different riding styles on spectrum along with the potential product offerings, I (thinking as a product manager) would think that the buyers would see this:

    |--------XC--------AM--------FR-------DH--------|
    |-----29er Endo-----|
    ..|------650 Endo-------|
    .....|----26er Endo----|
    ..........|-------26er Chili-------|
    ...................................|-------Podium--------|

    (NOTE: the periods before the "|" are just so I can get the editor to display the bikes at the correct positions along the spectrum. The editor treats multiple blank spaces as a single blank space.)

    A 650b Endo would:
    1) Cannibalize 26er Endo sales; and
    2) Not dramatically increase my customer base.

    A 29er Endo would:
    1) Increase my customer base by targeting a different demographic;
    2) Differentiate itself more from a 26er Endo more than would a 650b Endo (therefore, not cannibalizing as many sales); and
    3) Encourage more 2 or 3 bike quivers (as a company I want you to buy more of my products, not less).

    Obviously, my argument (and graph) show my belief that the larger 650b tire would add more to both ends of the Endo performance spectrum. I think the XC side is not in dispute. And, if one doesn't share the belief that the 650b will improve AM performance then it's hard to justify a 650b Endo in the first place.

    Anywho... that's why I wouldn't do it right now; but I'm not Noel.

  23. #23
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    Understood, I'd say that there's a more complimentary than destructive aspect to the Endo B, if you have the 6er and you're on it as your trail bike or want one, you've already decided you don't want a 650B or 29er for whatever reason. Probably because they just don't handle same as the 6er variety, Knolly has never been about chasing trends and market but dialing in product space they really know.

    The 9er would definitely bring new buyers into the Knolly fold, but unless it handles/pedals like an Endo, which handles/peddles like a small Chili, which handles/pedals like a small Podium, then its destructive to the brand. Not saying we want to ride the same bike, but I think we buy Knolly bikes because they have very distinct characteristics and they're best in class.

    If you're a Knolly rider looking for a bit more of the roll and willing to go outside of 6er, 650b is safest move for Knolly to go in, same same but different to 6er where as the engineering challenges on a 9er might end up with too many compromises.

    Adding a 29er that's not dialed to descend and rip like all the others wouldn't make much sense since Knolly has never tried to play complete segmentation coverage. I do want to try the new Enduro 29, have a buddy getting one in the coming weeks and I'll see if I have same hang ups with it as I've developed over the years on other 29ers. If thats as sweet as the 26 Enduro, then that's an easy choice and I'd say knolly should go that direction all day long. But until Knolly can deliver that sweet ride in a 29 platform, I'm happy to go with 650B for the extra XC edge in the meantime.

    (just discussing here, lots of angles... and I think 650b gives your more XC zoom than AM, or else I'd stick to 26 all day)

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    Food for thought (assuming very flexible bike budgets):

    Get 26er Endo, go to Fox 34 or Pike 650B 150MM fork (assuming the 10MM less from top spec'ed Endo fork keeps geo "true" in that a2c is still within spec), run 650B front, and 26 rear. When/if 650B endo comes along, sell frame and re-build rear wheel to 650B swap everything to Endo B ride into sunset.

    Thoughts assuming Endo out and Endo in doesn't kill wallet (i.e. used Endo if there is one out there)? Would you do it?

    I think you'd get a flavor for the 650B without killing the Endo geo and your wallet if you're committed to eventually running 650 B (i.e. fork, 2 hoops + wheel build).

  25. #25
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    I'm glad Noel runs the company instead of mtbr. Lets go ride our bad ass bikes and leave the strategic planning to him.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    The 9er would definitely bring new buyers into the Knolly fold, but unless it handles/pedals like an Endo, which handles/peddles like a small Chili, which handles/pedals like a small Podium, then its destructive to the brand. Not saying we want to ride the same bike, but I think we buy Knolly bikes because they have very distinct characteristics and they're best in class.

    (just discussing here, lots of angles... and I think 650b gives your more XC zoom than AM, or else I'd stick to 26 all day)
    Interesting thoughts for sure. Only Noel knows the answer to where Knolly is headed. I don't think it would be a sustainable business if Noel tried to make every bike feel the same. The first bikes catered to the freeride crowd and he has grown from there.

    I think a lot of people thought the new Endo would be a mini Chili. It is not, and from what i understand Noel didn't want it to be. As I understand it, he wanted to make a trail ripper and create some space between the Chili and Endo. I think he did a good job.

    I see Knolly competing with the likes of Turner and Ibis. These companies have a wide range of bikes (with the addition of the Czar and Ripley) but they are unique and distinct to there name brand. Who knows what the Knolly line up would look like if they didn't have the manufacturing hick up last year? I would think to grow the brand and be competitive in todays market you would have to have everything from a light weight carbon trail bike to a DH sled.

    It must be hard for smaller companies these days. Surprisingly, things are still changing quickly. Do you make a 27.5 or a 29er? Do you go with less travel or more travel? It seems like the fork makers are targeting the 150mm range for 27.5. Now you have the bunch of companies coming out with 150mm travel bikes. Like mentioned above, if you come out with a 140mm 27.5 does that kill the Endo?

    How about:
    125mm 29er Trail
    150mm 27.5 Enduro
    140 Endo
    160 Chili
    Podium

    Just speculating and having some fun.

    TG

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    Just speculating and having some fun.
    TG
    And I'm glad that you and thefriar are providing a different perspective. Your inputs are opening my mind. I like that!

    Question: is there any performance reason that a chainstay can't be designed to have an upwards slant? Knolly's straight seat tube that doesn't go directly into the bottom bracket creates ample room for a 30+ inch wheel while keeping a low BB height. Think of it: Knolly is the first bike with 32" wheels!!!


    The 32" thing is just to make people's jaw drop; but the chainstay question is genuine.
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  28. #28
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    I'd love to see an Endo Carbon 26'r. Something with the same weight and toughness of a Blur LTC. If that were to happen I'd coil out the Chilly and make the EndoC my goto bike. I was actually came up with this thought today as I was tearing around some buff trails on my Yeti Trail bike. I was thinking of how sweet it would be if I could accelerate this fast and not be afraid to throw the bike around. Yeah, I could build up an AL Endo but I'd be adding over 2lbs. to my race bike. If they could carbon it and bring it down to less than a pound difference I'd be all over it.

    So you build up an Endo C with a 36 float, Enve AM rims, other light but stronger bits and you have a 26-ish lb. AM bike that's tough enough to take some solid abuse but is light enough and pedals well enough to race with. It's pretty much my dream bike right now. Don't get me wrong I still love the Chilly but when your trails are as peddly as mine you do pine for something lighter and more nimble on those longer grinder rides.

    650B is still meh in my book, but I did say that about dropper posts and now I want one on every bike. I have pedaled one and I've been on a few niners and the lack of playfulness overroad any pedaling benefits that it might have had. For me to take it seriously I'd have to see some more fork, tire, wheel choices and spend some serious time on one. It does seem like the hot thing right now so it'd be cool to see Knolly have one and do some business.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSC View Post
    Question: is there any performance reason that a chainstay can't be designed to have an upwards slant?
    OR... just put make the tire ride higher in the dropout area to keep the BB lower on a 29er? (I think thefriar was getting at this.)
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  30. #30
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    So no thoughts on going for an Endo 26 frankenstiened to 650?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    So no thoughts on going for an Endo 26 frankenstiened to 650?
    I run my Chilcotin like that

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    Quote Originally Posted by loamranger View Post
    I run my Chilcotin like that
    Loamranger, are you doing that front and back or just 650 on front?
    I've got my endo with 650 in a magura TS8 now but still 26 in back, and only tonight realized I could slide a 650 in back also. I have a wheel to try it with so may do but I'm curious if you've done 650 both ends what your impressions are.

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    kark, 650b front only. I don't think 650b 2.35 HD's will fit the back?

  34. #34
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    Is the trend to do a 150mm rear travel bike in 650b like the Santa Cruz Bronson? I've not kept up, but if more manufacturers are going that way, that could make things interesting in terms of were a 650b Endo would fall travel wise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    So no thoughts on going for an Endo 26 frankenstiened to 650?
    if you keep your 26 inch wheels then put the largest volume 26' tyre on the front then something skiiny like a maxxis crossmark on the back youll have acheived almost the same thing.

    best wait for the 650b endo its only a few months away

  36. #36
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    For XC duties the 650b is likely the best all around tire size. I envision the Endo-C being half race bike/half XC training/trail bike. It would replace the 26" Endo in this category. Essentially, not eat into sales, but bring higher performance to that category. Noel has shown that he is in the business of making the best bikes possible, and not just making a bike that will sell to a particular niche.

    A complete line would be:


    29'r carbon HT race --> 650b carbon FS trail/race --> Al Chilcotin --> Al Podium
    .................................................. ............................................< Al Vtach
    .................................................. .............................................< Ti DJ bike
    .................................................. ..............................................< steel SS
    .................................................. ...............................................<Ca rbon Triathlon

    Unfortunately, I see little room for the Delerium, and a very small market for the Vtach, but would sell in limited quantities to those replacing their aging frames, and is worth a limited production run for historical reasons. Knolly road bikes would be silly. But I would love to see a Ti DJ hardtail.
    Regional Race Manager, Knolly Bikes
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  37. #37
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    EDIT: I'm not trying to upset anyone. Sorry if I am. Much of what I've said in my resent posts has been to show that there are legitimate business reasons why you might not get what you want. If I'm wrong and a 650b Carbon Endo hits get released then I will be happy too!

    Quote Originally Posted by rscecil007 View Post
    Is the trend to do a 150mm rear travel bike in 650b like the Santa Cruz Bronson? I've not kept up, but if more manufacturers are going that way, that could make things interesting in terms of were a 650b Endo would fall travel wise.
    The push is for biggest tire possible, without sacrificing handling (some might say, "without sacrificing handling too much").

    Interesting Video: Specialized Enduro 29er (Note: Specialized's website says the chainstay grew 11mm. In this vid the guy says the chainstay increased less than 10mm and he also insinuates that the Enduro 29er has 160mm of travel. Both are incorrect according to Speci's website.)

    Enduro Specs:
    26er: 165mm of travel with 419mm chainstay length
    29er: 155mm of travel with 430mm chainstay length

    As a comparison:
    Endorphin: 140mm of travel with 425mm chainstay length
    Chilcotin: 160mm of travel with 429mm chainstay length


    BTW, there are some new 650b DH bikes and some companies are trying to develop 29er DH bikes.


    FWIW, I am NOT anti-650b. I would love to have a 650b Endo, Chili, Delirium, or Podium. In October 2012, I wrote the following on a different thread:

    My Belief: Mountain bikes with larger diameter tires will appeal to every market segment except people who spend more time in the air than on the ground. And, even high-flyers come down to earth when they get older.

    Most people, especially me!, want to use technology to conquer their weaknesses. For examples, you can look at golf; or just look at the reasons people buy Knolly. (I have yet to see a person say they bought a Knolly because it was worse performing.) DH oriented mountain bikes are going to keep "progressing" in travel and tire size until they are lighter versions of dirt bikes (AKA motorcycles).

    The 650b is a step in this progression and will be introduced in longer and longer travel bikes until physics or a manufacturing limitation stops it; because the 650b will make it easier to ride the same trail in most cases.
    My beliefs haven't changed much since then. The only "addition" would be that the 650b will cannibalize most of the 26er market; and Knolly should release a 29er Endorphin before a 650b Endorphin, especially if the new 650b Endo is Carbon.
    Last edited by TSC; 05-01-2013 at 10:01 AM.
    "sounds like you need to find a better mechanic..." -- Calhoun

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    what the rest of you Knolly geeks thinking?
    I've started selling bikes and saving $$ for my next MTB. It's going to be 650B. I'm hoping for a 650B Chili as a bike to consider.

    The SC Bronson is in the running, but I'm hoping SC will release a 650B Nomad before I have to decide.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  39. #39
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    Been riding 650B in New England for 4+ years now. Converted Cannondale Prophet, 2011 Jamis Dakar B2, and now building up a new 650B Banshee Spitfire V2. I'm a true convert and believer in the size but for many still it's a cup half full vs a cup half empty. Best of both worlds (26/29) or the worst of both worlds. Especially for the diehard 26 or 29 rider. I'm in the cup half full group. IMHO 650B improves on both sides of the XC and AM worlds from 26. I also believe as you go up in each wheel size there is some playfulness that is lost. Going to 650B it's a pretty small penalty to pay (which the benefits outweigh IMO) and some may not even notice the difference while going to 29 you will for sure. As soon as I went 650B on the Prophet I noticed the immediate improvement (despite a 14.25" BB height which is not a bad thing in New England) in rolling, traction, not getting hung up as easily on roots/rocks and less harshness at the bars (that was a biggie and unexpected surprise). Now we have a dam good selection of 650B tires with some of these almost 28" tall (that's small 29'er territory as an FYI), decent selection of forks and rims and what seems to be new 27.5" bikes arriving monthly and more and more tires across the board.

    I'm all for a 650B Knolly Endorphin (carbon or aluminum) and truly believe it will make this bike even better. I contacted Knolly many months ago and was told it would be available this summer. Maybe that's been pushed back a bit? I also believe they should make it 150mm rear travel as the 140 becomes sort of a fork conundrum if you want something bigger than a 32mm stanchion and to match the rear travel. The only 34/35mm fork that easily will convert to 140 travel is the new X-Fusion Sweep which isn't available until August/September. All the others are 150/160. I have to believe that most Endorphin owners put a 150mm fork on it so why not have the back match? (maybe to keep it light trail bike vs heading towards AM Chilly territory??? I don't know)

    In the end I wasn't gonna wait around for the 650B Endorphin to appear and I'll be honest, living in New England I don't want to live with it's BB height which I was also told would be similar to the current Endorphin (see the review of Endorphin in New England and it's the 1st thing mentioned, and he's lived with it but I wont). With my Spitfires adjustable geometry I can go from under 13.5" to almost 14" which is very nice. Still, when it finally arrives I think it's gonna be an amazing bike and my gut feeling is (and I have been so right on with this through the 650B phase) if you have the choice right in front of you to purchase either a 26" or 650B Endorphin you will buy the 650B Endorphin. Unless they make it with convertible dropouts to run 26 or 650 like the Banshee Spitfire/Rune it's gonna kill off the 26" model. Now all that being said a nice 29'er version sure would be interesting (I have nothing against 29'ers either, just another nice option out there with it's own pros/cons)
    2013 Banshee Spitfire V2 650b

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    I'm all for a 650B Knolly Endorphin (carbon or aluminum) and truly believe it will make this bike even better. I contacted Knolly many months ago and was told it would be available this summer. Maybe that's been pushed back a bit? I also believe they should make it 150mm rear travel as the 140 becomes sort of a fork conundrum if you want something bigger than a 32mm stanchion and to match the rear travel. The only 34/35mm fork that easily will convert to 140 travel is the new X-Fusion Sweep which isn't available until August/September. All the others are 150/160. I have to believe that most Endorphin owners put a 150mm fork on it so why not have the back match? (maybe to keep it light trail bike vs heading towards AM Chilly territory??? I don't know)
    Bos Deville 140mm AM Tapered, 1800g, 34mm stantions, and the best damping in the market. Thats what im putting on my 650b Endo when they arrive.

    There are quite a few very good bike designs out there with 150 forks and less than 150mm rear wheel travel too and they munch the gnar very well (just isnt very kind launching them off too big drops).

    HTH

  41. #41
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    I vote 650B, 150mm, 13.5"bb and shortest stays possible to fit a 2.35" S Hans D rear with decent clearance.

  42. #42
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    I see Noel lurking. If you're reading this, I vote for a 130-140mm 650b Endorphin (in carbon), 67 HA and 13.2 BB height so as not to encroach on Chilcotin territory. I need a fast, light trail slayer with (a little) bigger wheels for that extra momentum for a second bike. Not a big steamroller. Fun, flickable, poppy but still capable in moderate chunk.

    Thank you.
    I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth...
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  43. #43
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    Bos Deville 140mm AM Tapered, 1800g, 34mm stantions, and the best damping in the market. Thats what im putting on my 650b Endo when they arrive.
    Yummy That would be sweet on my Spitfire also but I'm afraid to see what it will cost here in the US

  44. #44
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    Kent: That's EXACTLY the bike I'm looking for. I wish it existed as I've got coin burning a hole in my pocket.

  45. #45
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    Patience grasshoppers. Many of you are on the right track.
    Director of Sales: Knolly Bikes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    Patience grasshoppers. Many of you are on the right track.
    How patient? There's a carbon proto in the back seat of that Audi, isn't there? When are you taking orders? ..... Honestly, it would be hard to improve the trail slaying capabilities of the 26 Endo, but hell, I said that about the dt and the original Endo and each of their replacements where undoubtably better, so let me be first in line!!

  47. #47
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    Im guessing that in Sept they will release a 140mm 650b Endorphin in Alu with 67.5 HA thats lighter than the current Endo and has 3D rockers.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms View Post
    Patience grasshoppers. Many of you are on the right track.
    So lets see....
    150mm travel 27.5
    Carbon
    Climbs better than the Endo
    Descends better than the Chili
    Super light with lifetime warranty
    Dusty B easy touch uphill assist

    Anything else we should know?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Yummy That would be sweet on my Spitfire also but I'm afraid to see what it will cost here in the US
    I've bought BOS stuff from Europe. Cheaper than Fox garbage as you don't pay VAT. So you take approx 17.5% off for a start. Allegedly BOS will have US support a s distribution soon too.

  50. #50
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    Something along these lines will be a real contender for my next Knolly

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by KRob View Post
    I see Noel lurking. If you're reading this, I vote for a 130-140mm 650b Endorphin (in carbon), 67 HA and 13.2 BB height so as not to encroach on Chilcotin territory. I need a fast, light trail slayer with (a little) bigger wheels for that extra momentum for a second bike. Not a big steamroller. Fun, flickable, poppy but still capable in moderate chunk.

    Thank you.
    That would be sweet! Sign me up.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilks View Post
    Allegedly BOS will have US support and distribution soon too.
    BOS USA, BOS suspension, BOS fork, BOS shock, mountain bike

    also

    Seven 02 distribution:

    Distributors: Bos Mountain Bike Suspension

    and

    BOS Distributors USA and Canada - Bos Mountain Bike Shocks, Mountain Bike Forks, Mountain Bike Suspensions

    The new 1800g 140mm AM version of the Devilles aren't being released until August / September so you wont see them on the site just yet.
    Last edited by cfrench; 06-09-2013 at 06:46 AM.

  53. #53
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    Bahh :-)

    Have any of you even rode the 27.5 bikes?
    I was lucky to have recently ridden several of the latest bikes.SC Bronson, Rm altitude, N killerB along with several 26,29 of the latest offerings.

    If you want a frickin 29 ride the latest Niner rip 9 RDO
    If you want a 26 trail slayer ride the Rocky M Slayer, Knolly Endophin/Chilcotin

    IMHO -27.5 is simply just enough big wheel to FU&!@ Up the berm slaying of the 26. I'm not falling.

    I think the industry is just drumming up excitement to move products. They are succeeding.

    Tires for all bikes are more expensive due to lower volume which sucks for everyone!

    It's a major PITA.

    I find 29 worked well for Florida, Arizona & in the NW it's 26. I find its region specific. Alas I suppose it's good to have choices. Just sucks when you can spend upwards of 160$ for a set of Mtn bike tires....

    Rant over ill go back into my trash can now!

  54. #54
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    People are happy to wait, a good lure works extra well. Give us something!!!

    Even Ibis has pulled a shonky. lol

  55. #55
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    deleted
    Last edited by cfrench; 06-12-2013 at 11:56 AM. Reason: forget it

  56. #56
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    Ok, you got me.

    For Knolly I think it would be in the realm of good business too give a decent hint. That's all.

    I'm sure Dusty B could with a couple of simple words (not the last cryptic ones).

    Or you let the So Cal 'companies' get the sales?

  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ISharted View Post
    For Knolly I think it would be in the realm of good business too give a decent hint. That's all.

    I'm sure Dusty B could with a couple of simple words (not the last cryptic ones).

    Or you let the So Cal 'companies' get the sales?
    exactly, i totally agree, i dont know why they they would think its not a good idea to put it out there, especially now all the other manufacturers are taking orders, and to be fair to the other manufacturers, theres some serious competition coming out in the 'trail bike' market. everything thats coming out in the next 6 months has been off the design boards for some time and is already in manufacturing so Knolly would be aswell turning its cards now rather than later.

  58. #58
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    Would be or should be?

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    exactly, i totally agree, i dont know why they they would think its not a good idea to put it out there, especially now all the other manufacturers are taking orders, and to be fair to the other manufacturers, theres some serious competition coming out in the 'trail bike' market. everything thats coming out in the next 6 months has been off the design boards for some time and is already in manufacturing so Knolly would be aswell turning its cards now rather than later.
    If you remember back a couple years ago, Knolly had a chilly and and Endo sl at interbike and because of production problems, they couldn't get them to consumers in a timely fashion. So, i think Noel would rather wait til he's got something and KNOW when it's going to be available rather than blow smoke.
    As a side note, it looks as if they are already in for a redesign at ibis as you can't rum a big tire in back of the hdr......where have i heard that before? how many times now has ibis either announced something and it take 2 years to come out (ripley) or rushed something out the door only to make changes in a matter of months?
    I'd rather it take a little bit longer and be done right the first time. Patience has a way of paying off big time when waiting for new bikes from Mr. Buckley.
    cheers
    Pete

  60. #60
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    Sign me up if it's a carbon 650 with 150mm travel.
    I'm going to start saving up my $

  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    If you remember back a couple years ago, Knolly had a chilly and and Endo sl at interbike and because of production problems, they couldn't get them to consumers in a timely fashion. So, i think Noel would rather wait til he's got something and KNOW when it's going to be available rather than blow smoke.
    As a side note, it looks as if they are already in for a redesign at ibis as you can't rum a big tire in back of the hdr......where have i heard that before? how many times now has ibis either announced something and it take 2 years to come out (ripley) or rushed something out the door only to make changes in a matter of months?
    I'd rather it take a little bit longer and be done right the first time. Patience has a way of paying off big time when waiting for new bikes from Mr. Buckley.
    cheers
    Pete
    ok, i see, I didnt know about the problem a couple of years back, only been following them since last summer. Ibis tyre issue noted, thanks.

  62. #62
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    Fair enough. I think the man has that stuff sorted though.

  63. #63
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    - 650B would be great
    - skip the carbon pls
    - 150mm travel is fine, but not 140mm or less
    - two position shock for low and high BB gives versatility
    - maybe adjustable travel with dual shock position if we need to offer a shorter travel for more XC orientation, but a low slack 150mm travel option pls
    - don't call it an Endo 650B... give it its own name... Knolly Sasquatch?
    - optimized for wide range 1x gearing ie [SRAM XX1 and hopefully similar lower cost options we'll see soon]
    - offer raw, annodized and powdercoat finishes with a limirted edition finsih to reward early adopters
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    - 650B would be great
    - skip the carbon pls
    - 150mm travel is fine, but not 140mm or less
    - two position shock for low and high BB gives versatility
    - maybe adjustable travel with dual shock position if we need to offer a shorter travel for more XC orientation, but a low slack 150mm travel option pls
    - don't call it an Endo 650B... give it its own name... Knolly Sasquatch?
    - optimized for wide range 1x gearing ie [SRAM XX1 and hopefully similar lower cost options we'll see soon]
    - offer raw, annodized and powdercoat finishes with a limirted edition finsih to reward early adopters
    i really like these suggestions but the chance of the Endos being finalised and in the production line already is quite high...

    something to think about...140mm travel with 650b wheels would work just as well as 150 travel and 26 wheels...

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    140mm travel with 650b wheels would work just as well as 150 travel and 26 wheels...
    For sure and I wouldn't buy a 150mm 26er. Hence the request for a 150mm 650B bike. I'd prefer a 160mm 650B bike, but I am prepared to make some compromises.

    I ride techy BC terrain and I never wish for less travel on my bike. With efficient suspension designs there isn't mcuh penalty for an extra 1" of travel, but it makes a noticeable positive difference when you ride techy trails all the time. I ride buff/smooth trails about 2% of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by cfrench View Post
    i really like these suggestions but the chance of the Endos being finalised and in the production line already is quite high...
    I'm not expecting any real changes based on this thread. Just killing time until the Knolly 650B bike is released.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  66. #66
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    130 with mid wheels would be a stomper.

  67. #67
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    This is fun to watch.

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    I'm not expecting any real changes based on this thread. Just killing time until the Knolly 650B bike is released.
    OK. Time wasting mode on.

    - 650b
    - Carbon for sure
    - 140mm tuned for efficiency
    - Long, low, slack
    - No CTD crap - CCDBA/Deville option
    - obscene high end build option
    - You could paint it pink and call it the Turdburgler for all I care. I'd still want it.
    Only two infinite things exist: the universe and stupidity. And, I am unsure of the universe
    - Albert Einstein

  69. #69
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    I feel bigger wheels get less travel. I'd think 125mm will be the sweet spot. oh and its gotta be carbon. non carbon and 140-150mm is way way way to close to the current Endo.

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    it would be nice to see something new and better than ever, but ive been kinda thinking thats whats not going to happen. i just envisioned the old endo with slightly bigger wheels and almost identical geo lol. i hope youve got it right Pete.

  71. #71
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    Noel is not one for making slight changes. just look at the evolution of Knolly. I think if he's making a new bike, it has to be differnt from his others. Just look at the difference between the chilly and Endo and he also hasn't rushed a "new" Delirium because there would be to much overlap with the chilly. ....It's gonna be worth the wait. Get a place holder if you must (ibis, santa cruz have great resale value) but the new Knolly will will be what you want.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfarrell View Post
    Noel is not one for making slight changes. just look at the evolution of Knolly. I think if he's making a new bike, it has to be differnt from his others.
    I hope it's not a short travel 650B bike. I've got no use for that where I live in BC. The 140mm 26er Endo is an XC bike in my world and I can oly afford 1 FS MTB so it needs to do it all. I'd rather have extra travel I don't need on occassion than too little.

    One thing to consider is that in the medium run the 26er and the 650B models don't have to co-exist. There really only needs to be one of the two wheel sizes in a given model range. So having a 150mm 650B bike and a 160mm 26er may offer overlap, but you may not see the 26ers survive 2-4yrs out once we see what people think about 650B.

    I really don't see myself going back to 26" wheels again. I suspect we'll see everything from 150mm down be 29er or 650B.

    I own a 26er FS 160mm bike and I can't imagine buying another once there are some good 650B options to replace it. So I'd even say 650B will replace anything from 160mm down leaving the really long travel niche to the 26er.

    LBS aren't going to stock threee wheel sizes in each category so they are going to expect manufacturers to streamline things to a reasonable level. And the folks making bikes aren't going to want to design/stock/support multiple bikes in three or even two wheel sizes for smaller operations.

    So in my mind the new 650B Knolly should overlap the existing 26er bike range, becuase it's coming to replace some of them.

    A 150m Knolly 650B bike can cover the 140-160mm Endo/Chili pretty well and let everyone see how things are shaking out and what's going to stay and what's goingto go.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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    Wow...insane amounts of e-spec. Go ride your knolly's people! Less pressure on the man will result in a better product.

    Only reason I say this because whatever it is IT WILL BE GOOD! Have they released a crap/outdated frame yet? No...

    Am I captivated by the potential release of a 650b endo? Of course! But in the mean time I am happier than a pig in shit with the chili.

  74. #74
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    I'm thinking once Speshy starts to get the Enduro 29 out there, folks may be changing their tune on 650b... its a compromise! If you don't have to compromise with 29 that has tight flickable wheelbase and stays, why would you want go to something half baked in between?

    not trolling, just being devil's advocate.

    The Trigger 1 I just sold was solid and moving from a sultan with 18.2'' stays to 17.5'' stays brought a huge chance in handling and eliminating my beef with issues I had with Sultan. Sold trigger for endo b/c trigger while awesome just didn't do what 26 can do pump and throwing around wise, but trigger was close. Enduro 29 with 16.9'' stays will close that gripe gap and then its, why would you want to have a bike with smaller wheels, longer stays, that's nots as fast and maybe same or less flickability...

    Seriously, Speshy and Trek are moving their 29 lines up in size and they have the size, reach, and resources to move the market.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    I'm thinking once Speshy starts to get the Enduro 29 out there, folks may be changing their tune on 650b... its a compromise! If you don't have to compromise with 29 that has tight flickable wheelbase and stays, why would you want go to something half baked in between?

    not trolling, just being devil's advocate.
    Yup, the new Spec Enduro and the new Trek Remedy 29'er are nice bikes indeed. No argument from me. But hey, guess what not everyone wants (or fits) a 150mm or 140mm 29'er...or even a 29'er at all. Funny, I look at a 29'er as a compromise as I do every wheel size in some way. Obviously your a cup half empty kind of guy and probably look at 650B as the worst of both worlds 26 and 29. There are those out there (including me) who have the cup half full attitude and believe it has some of the best attributes of both. 650B is not a gimmick (been on em for 4+ years now) and put some serious time on one and you'll understand. Be all end all size no but I do believe it's gonna kill off most of the 26" market eventually.

    Not trolling, just being the other devil's advocate

    Whatever 650B Endorphin Knolly rolls out I'm sure is gonna be sweet. Carbon would really surprise me though but just about everyone is going there so maybe. Couple months and we should know but a nice hint would be appreciated

  76. #76
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    this is a long post... if you say tl;dr, thats cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by skidad View Post
    Obviously your a cup half empty kind of guy and probably look at 650B as the worst of both worlds 26 and 29.
    I'm going to relay that to my Risk team...

    At end of day, we will probably see the 3 wheel sizes hang on, the investments in tooling and R&D are made at component providers (forks, rims, tires), the costs sunk into tweaks of frames or newly developed frames to work with 27.5. We're also probably at the point in the cycle of 27.5 where expected economies of scale have taken hold or if they haven't we'll see those with the highest outlays and exposures retrench.

    A couple producers have cut the 26 options (RM & Norco) of certain frames for 27.5, I'm guessing their ability to allocate money, time, production resources drove the decision as much as their thoughts on right wheel size and if I'm a bike manufacturer the swell of 27.5 related product releases has its own marketing momentum built right in and no one is saying 27.5 is "bad" vs. with 29 which was slow release/development with a number of detractors. Heck yeah, I'll take free marketing any day of the week, especially if avg buyer doing avg research says, gee, this is at worst as good as 26 or at best waaay better but not bad like 29 so I'll give it a go nothing to lose.

    Ultimately, more options is the best option for everyone.

    Putting my business strategy hat on for a second: If there are economies of scale developed (and I'd say coordinated timing/release of sooooo many 2013 model year 27.5 products does a lot to realize those economies quickly), economic returns above cost of investment, then we'll see all 3 wheel sizes continue to develop within each segment of riding. If the returns don't come through, we'll see niches remain with higher pricing/less supply or variety and more focused wheel size segmentation with wheelsize dropped for certain segments (i.e. XC 29, DH 26, Trail 27.5/29, AM 27.5/26).

    Ideally, our sport grows, each segment and size within each segment sees growth, new market entrants add price pressure, tech trickles, operating efficiencies increase and we all end up with mo' betta' options priced attractively. We, the consumer win from a robust market.

    The wheel size debate is really Coke vs. Pepsi and we all shrug our shoulders as to why we like one vs. the other because we appropriate higher values to certain attributes vs. others' own evaluation of the same equation.

    So... I would love to see knolly offer another wheel size of any variety because their product is extremely well thought out and the designs and attributes line up closely to what I value most in bikes I ride. I also like options and trying new things.

    Noel hasn't designed/built a bike I haven't been happy as a clam to pedal while exceeding my expectations for what I value in performance.

    A 650b Knolly or 29er Knolly will be an outright awesome bike. With 4x4 I would expect it to climb tech like a champ, offer some relief in bad line choices, rail when pointed down, never feel looong and sluggish in tech, and feel plush when reintroducing tires to the ground. And a recent development I'm happy with, handle neutrally in the center of the bike vs. being rear wheel weighted on downs/etc (as the original tach and DT were).

    Knolly could launch 650b trail/am and have a hit because of momentum in market, or launch a 29er they feel is a better bike/product (ala Speshy's Enduro 29) and have to put more effort into selling it. Knolly isn't a major multinational brand/corporation so there's some serious thought involved on the product strategy and investment, or bugger it all and just build what you like to ride and given how we've all felt about other knollys on this forum, we'll all probably end up giving it a chance.

  77. #77
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    Since we're all passing on our wish lists to Noel I'll throw mine out there. 150mm rear travel to pair with a 160mm 650b fork(WITH A 20MM AXLE!!!), carbon front triangle and alloy rear with one of those sick one piece chainstay yokes from the new Podiums. I'd be all for an alloy front but I get the feeling Noel's got some crabon tricks up his sleeve and this seems like a good time to play those cards. Can't go away from that insane alloy rear on the Podium though.

    No interest in an AM 29er thanks.
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

  78. #78
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    Noel, I see you lurking and can almost hear your evil canadian chuckles from here.
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

  79. #79
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    I certainly don't envy the bike designers who have to fit a bigger wheel in the rear, provide large tire mud clearance, maintain the main pivot location, wheel path, etc. and still satisfy the riders demanding shorter chainstays. Somethings got to give, wonder what it will be for Knolly?

  80. #80
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    So you see a 650B Endo would sell !
    " A way to a deep freedom " - Tarja

  81. #81
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    Yes, I'm lurking

    However, Dusty's comment from a few days ago...

    650B Endo, who's In?

    ...is all we're prepared to say for the time being...
    Noel Buckley
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    Instead of PMs, please contact me here.

  82. #82
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    Hey Noel, Take your time. we'll wait. Cheers, Pete

  83. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefriar View Post
    A couple producers have cut the 26 options (RM & Norco) of certain frames for 27.5,
    Add Santa Cruz to that list - they just released a 150mm Heckler 27.5" and axed some more of their 26ers so their XC line up is pretty much 27.5 and 29ers. They have one 26er trail bike left [for now].

    It will be interesting to see where the big[ger] wheel invasion will stop. I don't think small companies can afford to push multiple wheel sizes in each category so something has got to give and so far it looks like it's the 26er.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Add Santa Cruz to that list - they just released a 150mm Heckler 27.5" and axed some more of their 26ers so their XC line up is pretty much 27.5 and 29ers. They have one 26er trail bike left [for now].

    It will be interesting to see where the big[ger] wheel invasion will stop. I don't think small companies can afford to push multiple wheel sizes in each category so something has got to give and so far it looks like it's the 26er.
    It's interesting that the SC engineers said there was very little difference between 26 and 27.5 and they didn't see the need for it, and now they have three 27.5 bikes in their lineup within a month.

    SC is a very smart company and their marketing is second to none. They are able to grow into a large company while keeping that boutique feel. Their brand loyalty is amazing (to put it politely).

    It will be difficult for the small companies to survive. Six years ago Turner had a complete line up and was one of the hottest manufacturers around. Now their lineup has huge holes in it and a couple dated frames. It must be very difficult and some what of a gamble to stay up with the trends.

  85. #85
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    Every mountain biker looking at a new bike is hearing: 27.5, better than 26 without 29 draw backs.

    They're hearing that everywhere, most shop workers are buying it without time or significant time on 27.5, most of the boutiques are there and pushing hard, component makers are pushing hard, Giant is getting in there, SC is there... so much noise to go 27.5 the marketing momentum from so many points will push new or weekend warrior buyers just by the momentum, hard to push back against that. Go with the flow is easy.

    I still think the 800lbs gorilla of speshy and trek staying 29 and pushing what's happening there will be fascinating to see play out from a business perspective. They have dealer networks, volume, infrastructure, and supplier relationships to push things around a bit that other bike players (ex. Giant & Cannondale) just don't come close to.

    Word on street is C'dale is coming out with 27.5 in 2014.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    It's interesting that the SC engineers said there was very little difference between 26 and 27.5 and they didn't see the need for it, and now they have three 27.5 bikes in their lineup within a month.
    I think they just decided we can't keep 'em all so what will sell that we are happy to put our name on? If you are equally happy with 26" and 27.5", but you know 27.5" will out sell the smaller wheel size it's a no brainer to dump the 26ers.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    SC is a very smart company and their marketing is second to none. They are able to grow into a large company while keeping that boutique feel. Their brand loyalty is amazing (to put it politely).
    They make good bikes. Provide decent support and have a good dealer network.

    When I started looking for a new MTB the only companies I was keen on were Knolly, SC and Ibis.

    I've scratched Ibis off because I can't use a 130mm 650B bike and I don't want to spend $6K to hack my bike into a 150mm beast with limited tire selection.

    SC has come up with a good option in the Bronsion at 150mm travel.

    I'd prefer to support a BC company and I'm interested in getting onto a 4x4 bike for my local rough techy terrain. So I am stoked to see what the new Knolly 650B bike looks like.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-AIR View Post
    It will be difficult for the small companies to survive.
    I think once the 650B shake up settles down their should be some stability once again. 650B has been bubbling under the surface for a while. I don't see anything similar coming down the pipe in the near future.

    I think the whole industry from riders to LBS upwards is a bit fatigued from all the changes.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  87. #87
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    I still think the 800lbs gorilla of speshy and trek staying 29 and pushing what's happening there will be fascinating to see play out from a business perspective. They have dealer networks, volume, infrastructure, and supplier relationships to push things around a bit that other bike players (ex. Giant & Cannondale) just don't come close to.
    Giant is the biggest bike Co. in the world so they can push around just fine. Cannondale has always moved to a different drummer with their bikes so I'm somewhat suprised we've not seen a 27.5 bike from them yet. I'm sure it's gonna happen soon. I'll eat crow if Spec. doesn't drop a 27.5 bike on us pretty soon. Not everyone wants a 29'er and the sales of their 26" bikes are gonna drop significantly with so many 27.5 bikes out there. They WILL want a piece of that market, Trek also. Just time now.

    I'd prefer to support a BC company and I'm interested in getting onto a 4x4 bike for my local rough techy terrain. So I am stoked to see what the new Knolly 650B bike looks like.
    You can add the Devinci Dixon to the new list of Canadian 650B bikes. Not sure when it'll be available but my guess is this fall for 2014. Also looking forward to the 650 Knolly which was supposed to be a summer release.

  88. #88
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    Something we forget is that the 26er was not selected for MTBs because it was the best size based on any rationale analysis.

    It was just an arbitrary wheel/tire size that was available.

    It's certainly reasonable to offer up alternatives and say maybe the 26er isn't the wheel size to go with for most MTB applications.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  89. #89
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    Saw this on Knolly's Facebook page today...


    Hi Knolly! Can you confirm there is gonna be a 650B endorphin? Seen a few pics around the web but not sure if they are legitimate? If so is there a release date?
    Like ∑

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    Knolly Bikes Shipping in December.
    Like ∑ Reply ∑ 2 hours ago
    Kevin Boyer Can they be pre-ordered frame only? Price?
    Like ∑ Reply ∑ 2 hours ago
    Kevin Boyer I would be very interested to know the answer to this also.
    Like ∑ Reply ∑ Yesterday at 11:34am
    Chris Needham Win!
    Like ∑ Reply ∑ 2 hours ago via mobile
    *2018 Pivot Mach 5.5 Custom Build*
    *2017 Knolly Warden Custom Build*
    *2014 Knolly Endorphin Custom Build*

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevinboyer View Post
    Saw this on Knolly's Facebook page today...


    Hi Knolly! Can you confirm there is gonna be a 650B endorphin? Seen a few pics around the web but not sure if they are legitimate? If so is there a release date?
    Like ∑

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    Knolly Bikes Shipping in December.
    Like ∑ Reply ∑ 2 hours ago
    Kevin Boyer Can they be pre-ordered frame only? Price?
    Like ∑ Reply ∑ 2 hours ago
    Kevin Boyer I would be very interested to know the answer to this also.
    Like ∑ Reply ∑ Yesterday at 11:34am
    Chris Needham Win!
    Like ∑ Reply ∑ 2 hours ago via mobile
    Was wondering if anyone else caught that. Hoping for a Eurobike release but maybe we'll have to wait it out until Interbike.
    Sipping the Knolly Whisquillappa

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    - 650B would be great
    - skip the carbon pls
    - 150mm travel is fine, but not 140mm or less
    - two position shock for low and high BB gives versatility

    - maybe adjustable travel with dual shock position if we need to offer a shorter travel for more XC orientation, but a low slack 150mm travel option pls
    - don't call it an Endo 650B... give it its own name... Knolly Sasquatch?
    - optimized for wide range 1x gearing ie [SRAM XX1 and hopefully similar lower cost options we'll see soon]
    - offer raw, annodized and powdercoat finishes with a limirted edition finsih to reward early adopters
    Knolly Warden - ticks just about all my boxes. Most excellent.

    First Look: Knolly Warden - Eurobike 2013 - Pinkbike
    Safe riding,

    Vik
    www.vikapproved.com

  92. #92
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    Hell yeah that's sweet!!! That sure does tick about every box.

    LOVE the fact they went to the 56mm lower head tube and a 13.6" BB height in the steep HA setting works for me just fine. Really nice looking bike.

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