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  1. #1
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    Help with sizing Dragon Sport 29er suggestions needed quick

    I had my lbs order a Jamis Dragon 29er for me yesterday. Well, I paid for it, but they can't order until Tuesday. They suggested I get a 21 inch based on my height (almost 6'2) and my standover height, 33.5.

    They did not have a Dragon in stock, so I rode to other bikes, a large Raleight talus and an XL Scott Scale 29. The Raleigh felt a little small, but the Scott felt huge, with too long a reach.

    I do know that with the Dragon, the top tube will be "right there", with no room to spare. How important is that on a 29r.

    Does anyone have any experience with the Dragon, and how does yours fit you? Do you have room to spare on the top tube?" How does it affect the ride?

    I've been saving for a new bike for the last 6 months, and dont want to mess up and buy somthing I cant use.

    Thanks
    Derek

  2. #2
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    I ordered in 2009 a large Dragon 29er sight unseen and was surprised at what little stand over there was when the bike came in I have about a inch of clearance. I am 5' 11" and knock on wood have not racked myself yet I ride xc and some all mountain with it. The stand over for my bike is 825mm a 21" is 852mm about an inch more than mine can you find other bikes at your LBS that have a 852mm standover to see what it will be like? The Dragon29er is a awesome ride you are going to have a blast with it I think you will be fine with the standover issue

  3. #3
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    Stand over is about the least important fit characteristic for any bike. I'm 5'9" with short legs, 29" inseam, and I ride a 17" Dragon 29er. The cockpit for a Dragon feels long so you shouldn't be swimming like you were in the XL Scott and it shouldn't feel small like it did in the Raleigh. If you do feel that it's a little long or little short see if they can swap the stem out for you. A 10mm longer or shorter stem can really help with the fit.

    By the way it's a wonderful bike. Steel is very comfortable and combined with the 29er wheels gives you a lot of play on rocky trails. Enjoy
    He who dares....wins!

  4. #4
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    Thanks for the replys.

    I tend to obsess about things, and when I somehow got worried that the shop was going to do me wrong or I got even stranger. Thats not the case, I spoke with them this morning, and they also replied to a late night email. I will go in on Saturday and take a little more time and possibly trade out stems on the last two bikes I rode to get a better idea of how the dragon will feel.

    I am kind of thinking that I will be better with a 19 inch frame and use a 120mm stem, but I will just chill until saturday and keep an open mind.

    Thanks
    Derek

  5. #5
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    Did the bike shop say anything about a 19 inch if your not comfortable on a 21 inch frame. My 09 came with a 120mm stem and I left that on untill about 3 months ago when I changed it out for some color and shortened it up a little to 100mm now it does not climb as well as when I had the 120 on but my (46 years young)back likes the more upright position. Also I had to slide the seat all the way back to get my knee over the pedal axle ask the bike shop to check that for you when they set your fit to the bike unless you know all about what to do.

  6. #6
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    One of the salesmen who has lots of experience biking and turning wrenches on bikes looked at me and based on my height and build (pretty similar to his) said that the 21 inch would be best for me. He did say that the Scott XL Scale I tested was larger than the 21 inch Jamis and suggested that using a shorter stem would make it more comfortable.

    I will be able to spend more time at the shop Saturday and I asked for more assistance with measuring and fitting. Last Saturday, I was just excited about ordering a new bike and that I finally had enough cash saved to get it.. It was only several hours after I laid my money down that I started to second guess the size and by then the shop was closed. They are closed on Sundays and Mondays.

  7. #7
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    Drobinson25 did your bike come in yet ?

  8. #8
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    Last Tuesday I called the shop and had them put the order on hold until I could come back out and test ride again. I went back to the shop this past Sat. and rode the bikes again. Again I found that the L(20 inch) Raleigh felt crampled and that the Scott had too long a reach. The geo on the Dragon falls right between the two. I ordered the 21 inch. the shop has agreed to stand behind it if it does not work. I think it is going to fit perfectly with a couple of tweaks. Because it is a holiday weekend, I don't think they will be able to place the order to Jamis before Tueday, than I t will be a week or so from then. I can't wait.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by DROBINSON25 View Post
    Last Tuesday I called the shop and had them put the order on hold until I could come back out and test ride again. I went back to the shop this past Sat. and rode the bikes again. Again I found that the L(20 inch) Raleigh felt crampled and that the Scott had too long a reach. The geo on the Dragon falls right between the two. I ordered the 21 inch. the shop has agreed to stand behind it if it does not work. I think it is going to fit perfectly with a couple of tweaks. Because it is a holiday weekend, I don't think they will be able to place the order to Jamis before Tueday, than I t will be a week or so from then. I can't wait.
    I think you're going to love that bike. I know I love mine. The only changes I've made have been seat and grips. Everything else I'm going to use until it breaks. Dragons are awesome.
    He who dares....wins!

  10. #10
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    I ordered the 21 inch last week after riding several other bikes at the shop.

    I picked it up yesterday and took a 7 mile ride after dinner. It feels great. The tall top tube was disconcerting for about 5 minutes, the I did'nt think about it anymore. The more I ride it the more natural it feels. I know I will have to adjust the levers and seat for optimum comfort, but I just wanted to ride. thaks for all your experience!

    Derek

  11. #11
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    Enjoy your new Dragon. I know I'm loving mine.
    He who dares....wins!

  12. #12
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    I know this is after the fact but I'm the same height as you and had the same dilemma between the 19 and 21. I went for the 21 because I felt a little too cramped on the 19. I think I do want to get a shorter stem. Anybody had any experience on deciding how much I should shorten it? I was thinking of trying 20mm shorter because I am a little stretched out right now, but I don't know if that would be too much. Should I try 10mm first?

  13. #13
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    pkmffl try this site just keep the spacers number the same and put the different lenght and rise numbers in

    Stem Chart

  14. #14
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    After spending 5 years with Spec. Stumpy FSR, I now consider purchasing Dragon 29 Sport 2012. However, does anyone have a clue why there is such a difference in Head Tube Angles between Dragon 29 Sport and Dragon 650?? I mean 68˚ vs. 72˚? Is it the different riding styles that they may be intended for?

    I have no idea how noticeable this could be and maybe it wouldn't bother me at all, but based on a brief research of several mainstream brands' 29er hardtail geometries (spec,cannondale,marin,kona,giant,trek...you know), 72˚ angle is pretty rare, or rather non-existent (among L-size/19" frames at least). And it follows that the wheelbase is almost 40mm shorter than say the L-size 29er Trail series by Cannondale... I ride mostly very relaxed XC on weekends (albeit not avoiding any terain), and this confuses me...
    Last edited by nimm_zwei; 09-27-2011 at 08:47 AM.

  15. #15
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    The dragon 29er is a classic xc/race setup, while the new 650b dragon is an all mountain trail rig. Look at the nemesis (aluminum 650b) from Jamis if you want steeper (more race oriented) angles.
    Looking for/WTB : Grove Innovations Assault Fork, Grove Innovation Hammerhead Stem or Hothead Bar Stem

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by apat13 View Post
    The dragon 29er is a classic xc/race setup, while the new 650b dragon is an all mountain trail rig. Look at the nemesis (aluminum 650b) from Jamis if you want steeper (more race oriented) angles.
    To be honest, I only find the Dragons interesting, due to their unique minimalistic graphics, while the rest of the Jamis offer is equally generic as most of the mainstream brands, in terms of the looks.

    Anyways, here in Central Europe, to see any of those bikes means to travel several hours with the prospect of few minutes of on-road "test driving" in front of the LBS and then perhaps making the decision. So I simply have to know my geometry in advance. Being exactly 6 ft. tall, I am absolutely convinced that 19"/L-size is a safe bet for me with almost any brand. Yet with Dragon, the exact corresponding measures are to be found in the 21" version, which normally would be obscenely large for me.

    You can call it a classic xc/race setup, but with (as it appears) downwright misleading / messed up sizing:

    WHEELBASE:
    Cannondale Trail Sl 29er (L): 1111 mm
    Specialized Carve (19"): 1108 mm
    Jamis Dragon 29 Sport (19"): 1086 mm

    (Jamis Dragon 29 Sport (21"): 1101 mm)


    TOP TUBE LENGTH (EFFECTIVE/HORIZONTAL):
    Cannondale Trail Sl 29er (L): 622 mm
    Specialized Carve (19"): 625 mm
    Jamis Dragon 29 Sport (19"): 610 mm

    (Jamis Dragon 29 Sport (21"): 625 mm)
    Last edited by nimm_zwei; 10-04-2011 at 02:49 AM.

  17. #17
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    Not sure what graphics have to do with geometry....and head tube angles are independent of frame size, so I am puzzled how the sizing is misleading or messed up. It is a classic XC race setup in the sense that it has steeper angles, a tight wheelbase with slightly longer chainstays, and a slightly more compact top tube designed to be used with a slightly longer stem (when compared to the Special-ed or Crackandfail) in order to make the steering less twitchy with the slightly steeper head angle.

    Classic XC race geo has nothing to do with appearance....it has to do with a steep angles, long and low stems, and tight wheelbases (compared to the slack angles, long top tubes, short stems, and long wheelbases of AM/FR/DH bikes).

    At 6 ft tall, you fall square into the 19" dragon 29er without question, and on a 21" you would be swapping for a shorter stem to get the same overall reach as the other two you cite....which in turn would make the steering a little twitchy unless you also swapped out to a correspondingly wider bar.

    Back to your original question about why the 650 and 29er have such different angles.....yes, as I explained before they are designed for different types of riding. The 650 dragon is a slack angle AM hardtail, the 29er dragon a classic race bike. The only thing they have in common from a design perspective is the sweet riding 853 tubeset.
    Looking for/WTB : Grove Innovations Assault Fork, Grove Innovation Hammerhead Stem or Hothead Bar Stem

  18. #18
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    Thanks for the comments. I only mentioned the graphics to explain why I do not consider any other Jamis model, including the one you suggested (nemesis 650b). However, let's just say I find your comments convincing enough to make me (at least) want to see the Dragon machine as soon as possible. So here comes the wait until late Feb 2012...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by apat13 View Post
    Not sure what graphics have to do with geometry....and head tube angles are independent of frame size, so I am puzzled how the sizing is misleading or messed up. It is a classic XC race setup in the sense that it has steeper angles, a tight wheelbase with slightly longer chainstays, and a slightly more compact top tube designed to be used with a slightly longer stem (when compared to the Special-ed or Crackandfail) in order to make the steering less twitchy with the slightly steeper head angle.

    Classic XC race geo has nothing to do with appearance....it has to do with a steep angles, long and low stems, and tight wheelbases (compared to the slack angles, long top tubes, short stems, and long wheelbases of AM/FR/DH bikes).

    At 6 ft tall, you fall square into the 19" dragon 29er without question, and on a 21" you would be swapping for a shorter stem to get the same overall reach as the other two you cite....which in turn would make the steering a little twitchy unless you also swapped out to a correspondingly wider bar.

    Back to your original question about why the 650 and 29er have such different angles.....yes, as I explained before they are designed for different types of riding. The 650 dragon is a slack angle AM hardtail, the 29er dragon a classic race bike. The only thing they have in common from a design perspective is the sweet riding 853 tubeset.
    You have mentioned the classic XC race setup and tighter wheelbases associated with it. Well, I have just noticed that even the other downright XC race 29ers by Jamis (the Dakota series) offer in 19" inch frames a wheelbase that is 26 mm longer than the Dragon 29 wheelbase. That is, if I am not mistaken, a difference of more than 1 inch. And interestingly enough, pretty much the same wheelbase, which you can see on 19" Dragon, you'll see on smaller 17" Dakota:

    Jamis DAKOTA D29 (17") - WHEELBASE: 1087 mm
    Jamis DAKOTA D29 (19") - WHEELBASE: 1112 mm
    Jamis DRAGON 29 (19") - WHEELBASE: 1086 mm

    In fact, I am now tempted to challange you to find on the market any current or recent 19"/L-size 29er (be it race or not-so-race ready, as you wish) with shorter wheelbase than the 19" Dragon 29 has.

    So I will happily leave it up to you to advise what constitutes a classic XC race setup, but if the Dragon 29 comes this close to have the shortest wheelbase on the market, then to me, as an undecided potential Dragon-enthusiast, it's a somewhat puzzling and off-putting observation.
    Last edited by nimm_zwei; 10-24-2011 at 04:42 PM.

  20. #20
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    The Dakota has a 1 degree slacker head angle, which lengthens the wheelbase....probably wont find many shorter since the Dragon is still using a 72 degree head angle while most others (Jamis included on their other 29ers) are using 71 or slacker. For what its worth, I think one of the biggest drawbacks to 29er's are the long wheelbases, which on the trails around me, can make the bike cumbersome....especially in slow speed, technical terrain. A tighter wheelbase makes the bike better in the slow speed stuff, while a longer wheelbase makes a bike more stable at speed.

    Not sure why a tight wheelbase would be off-putting....seems like an advantage to me. But then again, my trails have more roots, rocks, and mud than dirt, so if you like smoother stuff longer could be better. Classic XC geometry is what it is....take a look through the evolution of MTB geometry...some of the setups were downright silly! That said, we wouldn't be where we are today without them.
    Looking for/WTB : Grove Innovations Assault Fork, Grove Innovation Hammerhead Stem or Hothead Bar Stem

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by apat13 View Post
    ...Not sure why a tight wheelbase would be off-putting....seems like an advantage to me. But then again, my trails have more roots, rocks, and mud than dirt, so if you like smoother stuff longer could be better. Classic XC geometry is what it is....take a look through the evolution of MTB geometry...some of the setups were downright silly! That said, we wouldn't be where we are today without them.
    Therein may lie the trouble. I myself do not race and can cope with the rocky, rooty terain without the desire to have the most efficient tool for that. Instead, I seem to prefer more stability at smoother faster stuff. Now, I do realize that normally we could be talking margins here that I would not even notice in the field, plus a little more race-y feel to the bike is nothing to be avoided, but in this case the setup (the wheelbase in particular) seems to be on the exact opposite side as I might prefer it to be, and in a way that is quite beyond normal and unseen at that.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimm_zwei View Post
    in a way that is quite beyond normal and unseen at that.
    Giant XTC 1084mm

    Breezer Cloud 9 Pro 1086mm

    Tomax Type X 1079mm

    Marin Team CXR 29 pro 1091mm

    .....'just to list a few. If the biggest bicycle manufacturer in the world comes in shorter I think it is a little off base to say short wheel bases are "beyond normal" and "unseen"....not to mention Jonny-T specs his bikes even shorter than the Dragon....and everyone knows Jonny-T is the man.
    Looking for/WTB : Grove Innovations Assault Fork, Grove Innovation Hammerhead Stem or Hothead Bar Stem

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by apat13 View Post
    .....'just to list a few. If the biggest bicycle manufacturer in the world comes in shorter I think it is a little off base to say short wheel bases are "beyond normal" and "unseen"....not to mention Jonny-T specs his bikes even shorter than the Dragon....and everyone knows Jonny-T is the man.
    that's more like it! I was just going to invite you to meet me at some other manufacturer's forum over here to discuss some millimeters, but granted you just keep making it hard for me. Now I hope this tighter wheelbase thing won't invite some toe overlap issues. But I guess that's something to be easily tested...

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by apat13 View Post
    A tighter wheelbase makes the bike better in the slow speed stuff, while a longer wheelbase makes a bike more stable at speed.
    any idea how the difference may translate in uphill climbs? Which one do you think is more prone to front wheel lifting and zigzaging in steeper climbs? (If that's much of an issue with 29ers at all..)

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