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Slacked Out 7Point Performance

7K views 54 replies 19 participants last post by  thomas_4th 
#1 ·
I've been riding my 7.3/66 combo for about a month now and was generally pleased but have ridden some slacker bikes that felt more comfortable plowing down the trails we shuttle. Generally my 7 corners better but doesn't feel as comfortable at speed or plowing through rockgardens.

The bike I recently compared my 7 to was a 19" ASX w/Boxxer + Progressive shock. The rear felt far better compared to my Metel (expected, sort of) but the inch shorter TT and slacker HA seemed to really change the way it handled compared to my 7.

Overall I'm trying to get it to feel more like the ASX which...
A) felt like it could be leaned instead of steered
B) felt better over small bumps in the rear
C) felt more settled at speed

So I'm wondering, just how much better is the 7 with a 888 on there to slack it out another degree versus the 66? For that matter, could the Metel rear shock on my 7 really be that overdamped and harsh compared to a 5th Element on a singlepivot?

Thoughts? Am I just crazy?



I feel like a tool making this noob-style apples to oranges comparison but I can't help it!
 
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#27 ·
Sage advice and all things that I've been finding out over the last month or so of riding. In fact the last couple of weeks I've been watching Earthed 2 and 3 religiously, in slow mo, in real time, paused, and so on to see how the pros do things.

- Cornering fast is indeed mostly mental trickery, thinking confidently, and executing without focusing on what you don't want to happen.

- I tend to get tunnel vision in rocky terrain, focusing on the rock 4' ahead of me that looks pointy instead of 50' down the trail at the best line across the tops of the rocks.

- I try to steer too much and need to consciously lean the bike more, purposefully

- I used to corner with my feet neutral, but after close examination even seated and drifting the pros generally drop the outside foot.

The latter has REALLY helped with my cornering speed as well as using body english and hip positioning to lean the bike through corners. Overall line choice, in my case, plays a huge part in how fast I ride. I'll get it wrong and completely kill my momentum or worse, eat it, which obviously isn't the goal. Bike setup is something I constantly tinker with. Last night I changed my brake lever position for the 4th time, and changed the lever reach along with shifter pod location. I pay attention to these things despite being a noob. I'm not helpless and I do realize that my skill (or lack of) has more to do with me than it does with the bike.

However, there are naturally things that even I feel, with my unhoned senses, that could be changed or improved upon. My only gripe really is the head angle and top tube length, both of which I think are very nearly perfect. To each their own, I know this too, which is why my theory is that I could just be a longer fork, and a shorter stem, away from having it dialled.

All that aside, I rode for 3 hours tonight on bermed singletrack with small jumps and repeated the trails several times until I could push up the hills no longer. Repetition for success. Just ask JYeti, he'll lie and tell you I've improved a lot over just a month....but he's a nice guy (when hes'; not being a raging JERK).

;)



Thanks for the info. A very informative read and I'll try out a few of those things that were mentioned on my next ride!
 
#28 ·
BTW I found the following article on Go-ride.com's website under Riding Tips. Most of those articles are very good. Meaning that they have some good info that is very useful in fine tuning. Like braking forces.... that will discuss how a bike should feel when set up correctly. Once again handling and geometry is mentioned. Counter Steering is very useful also... Setting up your fork will help to get all the right performance out of the fork.

One thing that I have learned is that proper set up is a huge difference..... especially on the 7.7... the website says so too... Spring preload should be bang on....if not then you may have the wrong angles. Not enough sag or too much on can make the bike's angle all kinds of weird and ineffective.... I'm only writting this for those who don't know. Some people buy from a i-net shop who aren't there to get them tuned right.

Even rebound can make the difference...... not enough on the rear can make the rear end pop up to often and make the rear sit too high at higher speeds... making the fork too steep in performance....long story short....the bike will not respond right when you need it..... any who....

here are the tips..... http://www.go-ride.com/tips.html
 
#29 ·
Today I swapped my 65mm Hussefelt stem for a 40mm Hussefelt and it made a pretty significant difference. Before I was only hitting 3' drops at the most and today I stomped my first 24'er to downhill skinny landing. It was SICK!!!

Or, I put the stem on there, noticed the shorter more comfortable cockpit and really liked how the bike handled through berms and down some fast, albeit flat, downhill stuff I rode this afternoon in the 96 degree heat.



I'll let you the reader decide which is truth and which is fiction.

Next stop, 888 vs 66 and Roco vs Manipoo Metel.
 
#30 ·
Ongoing saga continues....

Well before it loses too much value I decided to sell my 66RC2x and get a 888. I was looking for a 06 but settled on a brand new 05 888RC w/compression sleeve mod but stock 05 crowns. Why? Because it's a trade and it isn't costing me much.

Big changes this week! Going from a 66RC2X + Metel RP rear, to a 888RC + Roco rear. And I'm switching grips from Oury to Ruffian MX lock-ons, and new gloves which will hopefully put my hand cramps to rest.

I suspect the changes will be noticable.
 
#31 ·
So i was looking at my bike today, and i thought to myself, "Self, you know, with that 8" boxxer (2006 team), the HA on my bike ('05 small 7point7) actually looks pretty slack." So for curiositys sake, i went to Lowes and bought myself an angle finder. Low and behold, my bike is running a HA of 65 degrees. Thats alot slacker than i thought it was. Common sense tells me that the HA must have been slacker than 67.5 with the breakout plus, since the Boxxer is only 16mm taller. So where did IH get 67.5 degrees, which is apparently the HA of all the 7points, even though the fork lengths vary quite widely throughout the range of models. What fork length is that number based arround? Could my bike be a defect?
 
#32 ·
Wow, that's slack !
I wonder too how slack my head angle is with a 66rc2x ? I think the bent tubing on the bike might give an optical illusion that the bike has a steep head angle but it actually might be slacker than we think. Also, you have take into account if you are running a bigger tire in the front or not. On the last ride I went on with my 66rc2x, a short stem and a bunch of rings to raise my bars up I felt almost 'too confident'. It finally felt like I was 'sitting' in the bike. I ended hitting a 9 foot drop to flat and tacoed out my wheel almost sending me to the hospital ! The bike just loves to drop off stuff !
 
#33 ·
The dropped top tube and fact that the downtube comes out a bit from the BB before heading up at a steeper than usual angle does make it look like the bike isn't as slack as it might be.

Now I'm really tempted to hit up Home Depot and see what my new 05 888 setup is running. It feels very similar to the Stinky I rode last year so I'm definitely thinking somewhere in the 64 degree range. Feels great so I'm definitely not complaining, in fact I'm singing the praises. :)
 
#34 ·
I rode Whistler with my new Travis on my 7point and with the extra length of the fork, the bike feels really good at speed. I don't know what the HA is now, but I'd estimate that its slacker by nearly a degree. The fork itself is a revelation after the Sherman. Much plusher and ramps up really nice to prevent harsh bottoming when I took it off a few of the bigger drops. The bike rips now and I can only think that the Roco upgrade would make it into a absolute DH weapon. As it stands right now it's riding great and suits the riding I do (as I ride up as well as down) perfectly.
Now my only niggle is the paint and that can be fixed relatively easy over this winter. :)
 
#35 · (Edited)
Tonight I decided to measure my '05 7point head angle with my 66RC2X. It's not a totally accurate test but should be correct within about .5 degrees with the tools I used (an architects protractor and a digital level) . My tires are the same diameter so I feel everything was nice and level.

First I measured my Large Nomad with a Pike fork. Santa Cruz specs a 68 degree head angle with a pike fork (522 axle to crown) which is what I have on this bike right now. I measured 68 degrees perfectly !

Next I measured the Nomad with my 66 and I got 66.25 degrees.

I took the 66 fork off and put it back on my Large 7Point and measured......take a guess.....66.25 degrees !

My 'rough' head angle findings are that the Nomad and the 7Point have the same head angle at around 66.25 degrees with a 66RC2X 170mm fork.

I measured everything from the stanchion of the fork. This week I'm going to try and find one of those angel finders to confirm this.

66.25 degrees seems plenty slack to me. I do have to admit that the Nomad 'feels' more slack with the 66RC2X then the 7Point when sitting on the bike.

Anyone else care to share their HA findings ?

BTW...The Nomad is a blast to ride BUT you can definately feel the pedal kickback when riding out of the saddle. It totally made me appreciate the 7Points zero pedal feedback.
 
#36 ·
Great info, thanks DD!

And since you bumped this thread I figure I'll put my latest feedback on the 7Point in this thread and avoid starting yet another (leave that to the Mk3 groupies and their threads! ;) ).


I've been riding more slow techy trails out here in the east and I'm definitely finding the low BB to be a bit of a hinderance. I would say a lot of the blame lays in the trail builders who, in their finite wisdom, build slow north shore stunts on a hill with many 5-7" high pointy rocks left in the rider's line between larger features. It's necessary to pedal between these sections and invariably I tag my pedals quite often on the little rocks. The trails are north shore inspired maybe, but I've seen vids and talked to people from out west and our trails here in the east, at least where we ride in MD, aren't the smooth mulch/dirt combo that they are out there.

It should also be pointed out that I'm running the 05 888 now which boosted the BB height to 15.25 (iirc). I'm still quite happy with the downhill handling performance and feel the bike is quite a nice budget downhiller. I'm not complaining by any stretch and the bike is doing the things I want it to do very well. You can't build a bike to be all things to all people and I still wouldn't give up my 7Point for anything else right now....cept maybe a Sunday.....if I could keep the 7Point also. ;)

Just a thought for you 7Point tinkerers.
 
#37 ·
DirtDiggler said:
Tonight I decided to measure my '05 7point head angle with my 66RC2X. It's not a totally accurate test but should be correct within about .5 degrees with the tools I used (an architects protractor and a digital level) . My tires are the same diameter so I feel everything was nice and level.

First I measured my Large Nomad with a Pike fork. Santa Cruz specs a 68 degree head angle with a pike fork (522 axle to crown) which is what I have on this bike right now. I measured 68 degrees perfectly !

Next I measured the Nomad with my 66 and I got 66.25 degrees.

I took the 66 fork off and put it back on my Large 7Point and measured......take a guess.....66.25 degrees !

My 'rough' head angle findings are that the Nomad and the 7Point have the same head angle at around 66.25 degrees with a 66RC2X 170mm fork.

I measured everything from the stanchion of the fork. This week I'm going to try and find one of those angel finders to confirm this.

66.25 degrees seems plenty slack to me. I do have to admit that the Nomad 'feels' more slack with the 66RC2X then the 7Point when sitting on the bike.

Anyone else care to share their HA findings ?

BTW...The Nomad is a blast to ride BUT you can definately feel the pedal kickback when riding out of the saddle. It totally made me appreciate the 7Points zero pedal feedback.
I've got an angle finder and I believe I measured just about 67 degrees, maybe a tad under, on a friends 2005 7p running a 2006 66 L ETA (555 A-C) with non zero stack headset. That sounded about right to me because that A-C is a tad longer than the Breakout+.

BTW, make sure you measure, flip the bike 180 and then measure again to cancel out the slant of the floor (average the readings). Some give me a hard time about measuring HA off the stanchions, but my forks are all straight.

FWIW, you get about 1.15 degree change in HA for each inch change in fork length.
 
#38 ·
7 Point Angles & Suspension Slop.

I had picked up one of the angle finders (Home Depot, I think), that has the 90 degree corner and the lines indicating the measurement. I can believe these things work worth a damn as it show my HA at 68 degrees on my 2005 7 Point 5, with a 2006 888 RC2X. If I remember correct the A2C on the 888 is 588, which adds something like 25mm to the original Boxxer ride A2C. What is everyone else using to get their measurements, and would you think that it is accurate? I have tried measuring off the headtube and stanchions and get about the same measurement.

That said, the way the bike is setup does not feel overly slack or for that matter too steep. I was on Upper Oil Can on the weekend and rolled all the steeps without any feeling of going over the bars, the big smoothie finally fell for me. Short technical climbs are not imposing with the slack angles other than leg power and lungs.

On a slightly different note, has a consesus been reached on how to eliminate the annoying play from the rear suspension. I took off my Roco and thought I had figured out where the play was occurring. The pin that rides through the DU bushing was easlier pulled out and seemed to have too much clearance. So I put my 5th Element back on the bike to test, as the pins that go through the DU bushing on the 5th have no detectable play. However, once the shock is mounted, there is once again the play in the rear suspension (that little bit of play when you lift up the bike at the seat), not so noticable when actually riding but it is still there. And before anyone asks, yes the shock has been revalved by 5th Element to correct the original issues from Progressive..

Has anyone been able to get rid of the play on the 05 7 point models???

thx

Jeff
 
#39 ·
The fit of the reducer thru the DU should always be a tight press fit. It should not slip in/out with just your fingers. It is pretty common for DU bushings to wear out and these should be easily available thru the particular shock makers. I recently assembled a 7POINT7 for someone and a 7POINT3 for someone else. In both cases the shocks were tight with no slop but this doesn't mean that as the DU's in the shock wear that they won't develop slop.

You can also try using the "big bolt" upgrade available for Sundays on the 7POINT. Call Iron Horse customer service for one.

-ska todd
 
#40 ·
rideitall said:
I had picked up one of the angle finders (Home Depot, I think), that has the 90 degree corner and the lines indicating the measurement. I can believe these things work worth a damn as it show my HA at 68 degrees on my 2005 7 Point 5, with a 2006 888 RC2X. If I remember correct the A2C on the 888 is 588, which adds something like 25mm to the original Boxxer ride A2C. What is everyone else using to get their measurements, and would you think that it is accurate? I have tried measuring off the headtube and stanchions and get about the same measurement.

That said, the way the bike is setup does not feel overly slack or for that matter too steep. I was on Upper Oil Can on the weekend and rolled all the steeps without any feeling of going over the bars, the big smoothie finally fell for me. Short technical climbs are not imposing with the slack angles other than leg power and lungs.

On a slightly different note, has a consesus been reached on how to eliminate the annoying play from the rear suspension. I took off my Roco and thought I had figured out where the play was occurring. The pin that rides through the DU bushing was easlier pulled out and seemed to have too much clearance. So I put my 5th Element back on the bike to test, as the pins that go through the DU bushing on the 5th have no detectable play. However, once the shock is mounted, there is once again the play in the rear suspension (that little bit of play when you lift up the bike at the seat), not so noticable when actually riding but it is still there. And before anyone asks, yes the shock has been revalved by 5th Element to correct the original issues from Progressive..

Has anyone been able to get rid of the play on the 05 7 point models???

thx

Jeff
68, no way! It should be shy of 66. Either we've got a pretty big tolerance on our angle measuring abilities, or there's a big tolerance on head tube welding ;)

The play I've seen on 7p is between the reducer and the shaft that goes through the center of it. These were newer bikes and the DU interface was tight. I think I heard something about a "tight tolerance" hardware kit to fix it.
 
#41 ·
7 Point Suspension Play.

ska todd said:
The fit of the reducer thru the DU should always be a tight press fit. It should not slip in/out with just your fingers. It is pretty common for DU bushings to wear out and these should be easily available thru the particular shock makers. I recently assembled a 7POINT7 for someone and a 7POINT3 for someone else. In both cases the shocks were tight with no slop but this doesn't mean that as the DU's in the shock wear that they won't develop slop.

You can also try using the "big bolt" upgrade available for Sundays on the 7POINT. Call Iron Horse customer service for one.

-ska todd
A worn DU bushing might explain the play on the Roco, but there is no play on my 5th element between the reducer to DU bushing, yet the when installed on the bike there is still play. It is the same play that exists on my MKIII. Don't get me wrong, I like the IH bikes, or I wouldn't likely own two of them, but some of the little quirks like the suspension play are begining to get irritating.

One last though; I only bought my 7 Point in March of 2006, and have only half that time on the Roco. It was my understandign the a lower leverage ratio on the rear shock puts less stress on the shock and bushings. My old Ellsworth Joker with a 3:1 ration didn't even burn through DU bushings this fast.
 
#42 ·
7 Point Angles

.Danno. said:
68, no way! It should be shy of 66. Either we've got a pretty big tolerance on our angle measuring abilities, or there's a big tolerance on head tube welding ;)

The play I've seen on 7p is between the reducer and the shaft that goes through the center of it. These were newer bikes and the DU interface was tight. I think I heard something about a "tight tolerance" hardware kit to fix it.
Danno
My question regarding HA was more as to how to measure accurately. I am with you in that the HA is likely around 66, I have been on bikes with 68-69 HA and know how easily they endo in the steeps. My 7 Point feels really well balanced in the steeps, it is more for curiosity to try to measure the HA.

I have seen a shot where someone had a digital readout on an angle metre, any idea where one of these could be located.

Jeff
 
#43 ·
rideitall said:
My question regarding HA was more as to how to measure accurately.
Here's a computer geek way to do it: Take a picture of the bike from the side. Use the angle measuring tools in your favorite image editing program to compute the HA.

So long as you took the picture dead on from the side, the result should be pretty accurate. You can even account for the slope of the floor.
 
#44 ·
rideitall said:
Danno
My question regarding HA was more as to how to measure accurately. I am with you in that the HA is likely around 66, I have been on bikes with 68-69 HA and know how easily they endo in the steeps. My 7 Point feels really well balanced in the steeps, it is more for curiosity to try to measure the HA.

I have seen a shot where someone had a digital readout on an angle metre, any idea where one of these could be located.

Jeff
No, I haven't looked into getting one of the really good ones. I did buy one of the $10 analog versions about a year and a half ago. I compared its reading against one of the high end digital types that we happened to have at work. It was pretty close.

You can check your 0 and 90 degree readings with a bubble level to kind of calibrate the one you've got.

Also, make sure you measure the bike both directions because floors aren't all that flat.
 
#45 ·
ska todd said:
The fit of the reducer thru the DU should always be a tight press fit. It should not slip in/out with just your fingers. It is pretty common for DU bushings to wear out and these should be easily available thru the particular shock makers. I recently assembled a 7POINT7 for someone and a 7POINT3 for someone else. In both cases the shocks were tight with no slop but this doesn't mean that as the DU's in the shock wear that they won't develop slop.

You can also try using the "big bolt" upgrade available for Sundays on the 7POINT. Call Iron Horse customer service for one.

-ska todd
My Sunday has developed play as well because the reducers have worn thin from repeatedly removing the pins. However, I can't find anywhere to to get new hardware that will give a tight fit for the pins like they were when I first got my Sunday. Also, what does this "big bolt" upgrade consist of?
 
#46 ·
Prechrysler said:
My Sunday has developed play as well because the reducers have worn thin from repeatedly removing the pins. However, I can't find anywhere to to get new hardware that will give a tight fit for the pins like they were when I first got my Sunday. Also, what does this "big bolt" upgrade consist of?
In more cases than not your reducers are fine but your DU's have worn. If the reducer can be easily slipped in/out of the eyelet it's time for new DU's. The big bolt is just that, a big ole 8mm bolt w/ a 6mm hex on one end & a 13mm nyloc nut on the other.

-ska todd
 
#47 ·
ska todd said:
In more cases than not your reducers are fine but your DU's have worn. If the reducer can be easily slipped in/out of the eyelet it's time for new DU's. The big bolt is just that, a big ole 8mm bolt w/ a 6mm hex on one end & a 13mm nyloc nut on the other.

-ska todd
No, it's the reducers. I've taken the shock off and the reducers are firmly set in the bushings, no budge whatsoever, but when I put a pin in I can move the pin up down round and round within the reducer, whereas before I needed a punch to get the pin in and out of the shock. It's not the pin either as I tried a brand new one. The play is in both top and bottom.
 
#48 ·
7 Point and Nomad

DirtDiggler said:
Tonight I decided to measure my '05 7point head angle with my 66RC2X. It's not a totally accurate test but should be correct within about .5 degrees with the tools I used (an architects protractor and a digital level) . My tires are the same diameter so I feel everything was nice and level.

First I measured my Large Nomad with a Pike fork. Santa Cruz specs a 68 degree head angle with a pike fork (522 axle to crown) which is what I have on this bike right now. I measured 68 degrees perfectly !

Next I measured the Nomad with my 66 and I got 66.25 degrees.

I took the 66 fork off and put it back on my Large 7Point and measured......take a guess.....66.25 degrees !

My 'rough' head angle findings are that the Nomad and the 7Point have the same head angle at around 66.25 degrees with a 66RC2X 170mm fork.

I measured everything from the stanchion of the fork. This week I'm going to try and find one of those angel finders to confirm this.

66.25 degrees seems plenty slack to me. I do have to admit that the Nomad 'feels' more slack with the 66RC2X then the 7Point when sitting on the bike.

Anyone else care to share their HA findings ?

BTW...The Nomad is a blast to ride BUT you can definately feel the pedal kickback when riding out of the saddle. It totally made me appreciate the 7Points zero pedal feedback.
DirtDiggler

I noticed that you have both the Nomad and the 7 Point. These are pretty similar in terms of travel and from your point the HA as well.

Can you advise on the difference on the ride. For example do you ride the bike in the same type off terrain, is one setup for XC/AM and the other for FR...

Sorry to post this on the Iron Horse board, but I am considering in selling my 7 Point for a lighter weight Nomad that would still have the nice and slack HA (by using a 66 up front)
I really like the 7 Point ride but the extra weight climbs are getting to me. My estimate with the 888 RC2X and Roco put the bike at 42-44lbs. I could run the Nomad with a DHX Air and 66 RC2X and other FR parts and still be in at 35-38 lbs.

If only the 6-Point was available now, then this would be easy.

thx

Jeff
 
#49 ·
rideitall said:
DirtDiggler

I noticed that you have both the Nomad and the 7 Point. These are pretty similar in terms of travel and from your point the HA as well.

Can you advise on the difference on the ride. For example do you ride the bike in the same type off terrain, is one setup for XC/AM and the other for FR...

Sorry to post this on the Iron Horse board, but I am considering in selling my 7 Point for a lighter weight Nomad that would still have the nice and slack HA (by using a 66 up front)
I really like the 7 Point ride but the extra weight climbs are getting to me. My estimate with the 888 RC2X and Roco put the bike at 42-44lbs. I could run the Nomad with a DHX Air and 66 RC2X and other FR parts and still be in at 35-38 lbs.

If only the 6-Point was available now, then this would be easy.

thx

Jeff
Jeff, I'd really recomend trying a lighter fork on that bike and maybe some lighter parts. I've ridden the Nomad and it's a great bike, I just really feel that the 7 Point has a better suspension feel. Maybe try and hold on to get a 6 Point? It's not that far away now.
 
#50 ·
Roco - Up for sale

jon_boy said:
Jeff, I'd really recomend trying a lighter fork on that bike and maybe some lighter parts. I've ridden the Nomad and it's a great bike, I just really feel that the 7 Point has a better suspension feel. Maybe try and hold on to get a 6 Point? It's not that far away now.
Jon
Are you interested in my Roco. I just stopped by Marzocchi on the North Shore and got new reducer pin set, so no play. The tech (I think Naz), indicated a slight variation on the old set. I guess that answers the question as to where the play comes from on the 7 Points. The DU bushing is in perfect shape. I didn't think that 2 months of riding (1 ride per week) should wear out a DU bushing, especially given the low ratio on the rear shock. (approx 2.5:1)

Jeff
 
#51 ·
In theory this sounds good, but believe me... it's damnnear impossible to get it right and the margin of error is quite high.

I designed and maintain an online bike builder for a bike company, and even when all the frames are shot in a static jig with a long lens, there is still enough distortion and movement to produce noticable variation between images when I composite them in Photoshop.

JMH

KevinB said:
Here's a computer geek way to do it: Take a picture of the bike from the side. Use the angle measuring tools in your favorite image editing program to compute the HA.

So long as you took the picture dead on from the side, the result should be pretty accurate. You can even account for the slope of the floor.
 
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