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  1. #1
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    rough upshifting on 04 HP sport

    I recently posted a similar post in the "everything drivetrain", but I figured that I would see if this forum could shed any light on the problem.

    I am experiencing rough upshifting, as I shift from a larger cog to a smaller cog. The chain is not making a smooth transition between cogs even though the der. is adjusted properly. It is almost like the chain jumps between cogs. I should mention that the transition between a smaller to larger cog is very smooth.

    Someone mentioned that the der. adjustment will not greatly effect this, but I am still skeptical about that statement. This person also stated that he thought the main problem was with the cog/chain combination on the bike or even the type of lube that I use (Tri-flow w/ teflon).

    Anyway, I have adjusted the limits, indexing, and B tension as per Parktool's and Brown's website.

    Has anyone here experienced a similar type of problem? if so, what is causing it and how did you fix it?

  2. #2
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    How old is the bike? New or a full season of use?

    Does it do this only in the stand? only while riding? both?

    Did you check derailleur hanger alignment?

    Check your cables/housing for any bends, dents, etc.

    It's hard to diagnose problems like this by email or message boards. It's alot easier to see what is going on in person. If all else fails, have your local shop take a look at it

    -ska todd

  3. #3
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    I'll second the derailleur hanger check. My HP expert had a bent hanger when I bought it. Took me all afternoon to figure it out. I had swapped out the Shimano drivetrain for SRAM and thought I had screwed up the install somehow. Eventually I took a long, close look at the hanger and noticed it was a little off. Took it back to the LBS for a replacement, they didn't have any but he was able to bend it back. That reminds me...i still need to order a replacement to stick in my bag just in case.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ska todd
    How old is the bike? New or a full season of use?

    Does it do this only in the stand? only while riding? both?

    Did you check derailleur hanger alignment?

    Check your cables/housing for any bends, dents, etc.

    It's hard to diagnose problems like this by email or message boards. It's alot easier to see what is going on in person. If all else fails, have your local shop take a look at it

    -ska todd
    Todd thanks for the quick reply. Here is some of the requested info:

    The bike is about 1 month old, hit the trails every weekend. The trails are usually singletrack/fireroads. I have not been in any serious crashes yet (a few minor ones, but nothing as of yet to jeopardize the hanger)

    It happens on both the trail and the stand.

    No bends in the cables/housings.

    Maybe the derailleur came bent?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vecsus
    I'll second the derailleur hanger check. My HP expert had a bent hanger when I bought it. Took me all afternoon to figure it out. I had swapped out the Shimano drivetrain for SRAM and thought I had screwed up the install somehow. Eventually I took a long, close look at the hanger and noticed it was a little off. Took it back to the LBS for a replacement, they didn't have any but he was able to bend it back. That reminds me...i still need to order a replacement to stick in my bag just in case.
    Thanks for the reply. On my previous bike, I tended to let others do most of the work, but now that I upgraded to my first "real" bike, I am trying to do as much work by myself. Is there a siple test or a characteristic that would wllow me to say that it is definately the hanger? Just by looking at it, it does not seemed to be bent. Anyway, if there is, believe that my HP came with an extra hanger, and I may switch them out to see if that makes a difference.

    However, I would suspect that if it is a hanger issue then there would be rough downshifting and upshifting, not just upshifting like I am experiencing. What do you think?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichwstein
    Anyway, if there is, believe that my HP came with an extra hanger, and I may switch them out to see if that makes a difference.

    However, I would suspect that if it is a hanger issue then there would be rough downshifting and upshifting, not just upshifting like I am experiencing. What do you think?
    Bent hangers are tricky. Take a look at it from behind. If it doesn't hand pretty much exactly in-line up/down and bends to either side or is twisted it would classify as bent. Iron Horse Bikes come with an extra hanger for times just like this.

    -ska todd

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by ska todd
    Iron Horse Bikes come with an extra hanger for times just like this.

    -ska todd
    You mean I was supposed to get a spare when I bought my bike? If so then Performance owes me one. They dug around the shop to see if they had one I could buy but didn't find any.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vecsus
    You mean I was supposed to get a spare when I bought my bike? If so then Performance owes me one. They dug around the shop to see if they had one I could buy but didn't find any.
    Usually they are in the parts bag w/ the reflectors and other assorted small parts.

    -ska todd

  9. #9
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    Yes the HP comes with a spare hanger, but it doesn't mean the derailleur will end up straight.

    I had similar problems and it turned out that the receiving part of the hanger was ever-so-slightly out of whack, which resulted in the derailleur shifting funky. In that case swapping hangers wouldn't change anything, but straightening them (actually, bending them to offset the swingarm "defect") did the trick.

    Have the derailleur hanger straightened wrt the wheel. There's numerous do-it-yourself methods, the best being the Park derailleur hanger tool, pricey but pays for itself the first time - at least for me, don't get me started on LBSes....

    A few things:
    - the derailleur may look straight but still need adjustment. Only accurate way to see is with a tool.
    - it's hard to bend the derailleur itself, it will usually break before bending.
    - cog/chain combination ? lube ? rrriiiight...
    - a straight hanger feels sooo good.

    Last thing (promise), what derailleur is it ? Rapidrise or normal rise ? With normal rise a sticky cable will ruin downshifting (bigger to smaller cog shifting).

    Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

    Note that I'm saying that but I haven't used gears in a looong time... Todd, I'm still waiting for a sweet XC SS frame

    Maurice

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ska todd
    Bent hangers are tricky. Take a look at it from behind. If it doesn't hand pretty much exactly in-line up/down and bends to either side or is twisted it would classify as bent. Iron Horse Bikes come with an extra hanger for times just like this.

    -ska todd
    Lets hope that this image uploads.

    Here is the hanger in question. What do you guys think...is it bent? To my novice eyes, it sees rather straight.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #11
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    Answers for Maurice

    Quote Originally Posted by Maurice
    Yes the HP comes with a spare hanger, but it doesn't mean the derailleur will end up straight.

    I had similar problems and it turned out that the receiving part of the hanger was ever-so-slightly out of whack, which resulted in the derailleur shifting funky. In that case swapping hangers wouldn't change anything, but straightening them (actually, bending them to offset the swingarm "defect") did the trick.

    Have the derailleur hanger straightened wrt the wheel. There's numerous do-it-yourself methods, the best being the Park derailleur hanger tool, pricey but pays for itself the first time - at least for me, don't get me started on LBSes....

    A few things:
    - the derailleur may look straight but still need adjustment. Only accurate way to see is with a tool.
    - it's hard to bend the derailleur itself, it will usually break before bending.
    - cog/chain combination ? lube ? rrriiiight...
    - a straight hanger feels sooo good.

    Last thing (promise), what derailleur is it ? Rapidrise or normal rise ? With normal rise a sticky cable will ruin downshifting (bigger to smaller cog shifting).

    Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

    Note that I'm saying that but I haven't used gears in a looong time... Todd, I'm still waiting for a sweet XC SS frame

    Maurice
    The derailler is a shimano XT normal rise. I will definatly have to check for a sticky cable. If it find one, how would you go about treating it? What type of lube/grease, ect...

    Thanks guys for all of the help!!

  12. #12
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    Bonking ... not feelin' well

    If you slide the image over to the side of the screen the lower end of the hanger is pushed in from the top. This is assuming the picture is lined up.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by erichwstein
    The derailler is a shimano XT normal rise. I will definatly have to check for a sticky cable. If it find one, how would you go about treating it? What type of lube/grease, ect...
    It's generally a bad idea to try to lube your shifting cables. The lube just attracts dirt and causes the cable to become even more gummed up than it was in the first place. (I have personal experience with this.)

    When this happens, you need to replace the cable housing. Make sure you get the kind that doesn't compress under load. (I've gotten the wrong kind before, and it can be even worse than a gummed up housing.) When you replace the housing, it's a good idea to have a spare cable on hand too in case the cable itself is frayed.

    Speaking of housing... Does anyone know what kind of housing does the Hollowpoint Expert use? I like the way it looks, and when it comes time to replace the housing, I'd like to try to get the same type that I currently have on the bike. (My other bike just has plain black housing; that stuff is easy to get.)

  14. #14
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    I second the cable lubing thing, it just doesn't work.

    Nowadays housing and cables come coated with teflon, and when it starts to wear out it just bunches up inside the housing...

    I've had good luck with XTR housing+cables. Made a world of a difference and seemed to last quite a bit. A bit pricey but worthwhile IMO.

    Looking at the picture I would start by straightening the hanger first. Your bike looks way too clean for a sticky cable. I couldn't get my bike that clean and shiny right now. My derailleur is all scuffed and beat up yet shifts(ed ?) like a charm. Also play around with the shifter adjuster _while_ riding until you find the best setting.

    Maurice

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinB
    Speaking of housing... Does anyone know what kind of housing does the Hollowpoint Expert use? I like the way it looks, and when it comes time to replace the housing, I'd like to try to get the same type that I currently have on the bike.
    Iron Horse highend models use Alligator brand housing. (www.alligatorcables.com) It is also found under the Unex brand name.

    -ska todd
    Last edited by ska todd; 10-16-2004 at 09:07 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ska todd
    Usually they are in the parts bag w/ the reflectors and other assorted small parts.

    -ska todd
    I got nothing, nada, zip. One of the salesmen thought I was supposed to get a shock pump with the bike. Another guy said that since they did not have any laying around in the back they must not have come with one. not a big deal since I had one already but a sorry reason to tell a customer no. Same with the hanger. If the bike was supposed to come with one then where did it go? I wish my regular Performance shop had had the right size frame...i spend tons in there and they would have taken care of me better. I had to drive 30 miles to get one the right size.

  17. #17
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    The hanger in that image is almost exactly what mine looked like. When the mechanic used the proper tool to measure the hanger he confirmed it was bent. It does not need to be off my much to cause shifting problem in certain gear ranges. I had a similar shifting problem with my old dakar, the rear dropouts were rather worn and it took black magic voodoo to get the wheel perfectly settled. The system only needs to be off a tiny bit to screw things up. Actually, I would rather have the hanger mangled than only slightly tweaked, at least then you know what the problem is lol.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maurice
    Yes the HP comes with a spare hanger, but it doesn't mean the derailleur will end up straight.

    I had similar problems and it turned out that the receiving part of the hanger was ever-so-slightly out of whack, which resulted in the derailleur shifting funky. In that case swapping hangers wouldn't change anything, but straightening them (actually, bending them to offset the swingarm "defect") did the trick.

    Have the derailleur hanger straightened wrt the wheel. There's numerous do-it-yourself methods, the best being the Park derailleur hanger tool, pricey but pays for itself the first time - at least for me, don't get me started on LBSes....

    A few things:
    - the derailleur may look straight but still need adjustment. Only accurate way to see is with a tool.
    - it's hard to bend the derailleur itself, it will usually break before bending.
    - cog/chain combination ? lube ? rrriiiight...
    - a straight hanger feels sooo good.

    Last thing (promise), what derailleur is it ? Rapidrise or normal rise ? With normal rise a sticky cable will ruin downshifting (bigger to smaller cog shifting).

    Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

    Note that I'm saying that but I haven't used gears in a looong time... Todd, I'm still waiting for a sweet XC SS frame

    Maurice
    Well, I brought my HP to the LBS. It was my first time to this LBS, and they seemed to be ok with the idea that i did not buy the bike from them...I have heard that some LBSes seems to be rude and blow off customers that did not pruchase bikes form their store. Anyway, he did some minor adjustments, and took it for a ride. His comment was that that is just how XTs shift. Anyway, he never did use the alignment tool to check, but whatever he did seemed to help the problem.

    Thakks again guys for all of the help. I am sure that as I get to know my HP more that I will have some more questions.

    THANKS!!

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vecsus
    I got nothing, nada, zip. One of the salesmen thought I was supposed to get a shock pump with the bike. Another guy said that since they did not have any laying around in the back they must not have come with one. not a big deal since I had one already but a sorry reason to tell a customer no. Same with the hanger. If the bike was supposed to come with one then where did it go? I wish my regular Performance shop had had the right size frame...i spend tons in there and they would have taken care of me better. I had to drive 30 miles to get one the right size.
    If you didn't get an extra hanger drop us a call and we'll hook one up for ya.

    The bikes don't come w/ pumps. Shops generally stock those and can sell at time of purchase.

    -ska todd

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