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  1. #1
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    More Hollowpoint suspension Qs

    Now that I've got the updated rear end on my '03 Hollowpoint with Fox R-Ava (thanks to Bruce at IHB and Jorge at Supergo SM), can I go all out on the air chamber? I ask because my last adjustment was to open the chamber about 20% from smallest volume and the bike rides better: more fluid through the travel with no change in climbing efficiency (at least not that I can feel). I also decreased the sag just a bit, from around 33% to probably 26-28%. I'm 188# and running the fork a little soft if that makes any difference...

    Anybody have any exeprience with this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dusty
    Now that I've got the updated rear end on my '03 Hollowpoint with Fox R-Ava (thanks to Bruce at IHB and Jorge at Supergo SM), can I go all out on the air chamber? I ask because my last adjustment was to open the chamber about 20% from smallest volume and the bike rides better: more fluid through the travel with no change in climbing efficiency (at least not that I can feel). I also decreased the sag just a bit, from around 33% to probably 26-28%. I'm 188# and running the fork a little soft if that makes any difference...

    Anybody have any exeprience with this?
    Dusty,

    Running the sag right around the 1/3 range is critical to optimum suspension and pedaling performance. With the AVA shock, we generally don't recommend openning the chamber more than 1/2 way b/c the shock will then go through the travel too quickly and experience harsh bottom out. You will still have great pedalling performance but the bike will feel almost too active on most bumps.

    If you want a similar feel you have now, I would recommend returning to the 33% sag and to close the AVA chamber a little bit.

    -ska todd

  3. #3
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    Hey Dusty,

    In addition to what Todd said, keep in mind that the Float with the AVA chamber *in the SMALLEST position* is still 1/3 more air chamber volume than the standard (non-AVA) Fox float.

    I can vouch for what Todd is telling you. I ran the AVA in various settings and constantly bottomed it, even though it maintained suspension stability on climbs and while hammering. The smallest of hits will fully cycle the suspension in the largest setting.

    Also, you'll notice with the higher air pressure and reduced sag you're running, hard pedaling efforts tend to pull the suspension and will result in bobbing, especially with the AVA in the more linear setting.

    I'd play with it a little to see what differences small changes make, but always be on the lookout for excessive bottoming in relation to the air chamber setting, and always keep that all-important 1/3 mark in the back of your mind whenever you look down between your legs and notice too much shock activity.

  4. #4
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    Thanks!

    Good info, especially about the air volume being larger than a regular Float (how did you find that out Nate? I thought I had scoured the Fox website.) I let a little air out this morning for a full 1/3 measured by the o-ring on the piston: 13mm (should I be measuring from the seat to the ground instead, or is it a pretty linear relationship between actual sag and the movement indicated on the shock via the o-ring?) I weigh 185-190 and I'm only using about 138 in the shock, is this unusual?

    The ride was nice. I'm nursing a broken rib from a spill about 10 days ago, so I'm riding up (and down) the same steep fire road daily--a little boring but a nice control for dialing in the new Hollowpoint. With your suggested setup, Todd, the bike was less chattery on the roots and washboards going down, and very comfortable. As usual, up was almost bob-free (except when I stood to rest my butt) and the rear end sticks well, even in all the dust. I'll play with it a little more, but I think I'm 90% there.

    Off topic: my 2003 stats page from the catalog indicates that the Sport came with XT shifters, but mine (and the two others I saw the day I bought it) have the heavier Deore. Was that a model wide change? Just trying to get to 30 lb....

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by dusty
    Good info, especially about the air volume being larger than a regular Float (how did you find that out Nate? I thought I had scoured the Fox website.) I let a little air out this morning for a full 1/3 measured by the o-ring on the piston: 13mm (should I be measuring from the seat to the ground instead, or is it a pretty linear relationship between actual sag and the movement indicated on the shock via the o-ring?) I weigh 185-190 and I'm only using about 138 in the shock, is this unusual?
    You can measure your sag off of the shock shaft. The HP shock uses a 1.5" stroke shock. .5" = 1/3

    Generally, at 1/3 sag you will use your riding weight in the air chamber when in the 4.5" setting. In the 3.75" setting you will use less air pressure.

    The ride was nice. I'm nursing a broken rib from a spill about 10 days ago, so I'm riding up (and down) the same steep fire road daily--a little boring but a nice control for dialing in the new Hollowpoint. With your suggested setup, Todd, the bike was less chattery on the roots and washboards going down, and very comfortable. As usual, up was almost bob-free (except when I stood to rest my butt) and the rear end sticks well, even in all the dust. I'll play with it a little more, but I think I'm 90% there.
    You may also want to play with your fork settings some. You said in your previous post that you are running it soft. Try stiffening the fork a little fork and you will see a change in the rear suspension performance. Also, if you change your stem length or saddle position you will see subtle changes in suspension performance.

    Off topic: my 2003 stats page from the catalog indicates that the Sport came with XT shifters, but mine (and the two others I saw the day I bought it) have the heavier Deore. Was that a model wide change? Just trying to get to 30 lb....
    That was a typo on the site. The bike has always come w/ SL-M511 Deore shifters.

    -ska todd

  6. #6
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    Hey Todd, does the Hollowpoint have more of a rearward rider weight bias than your "average" bike?

    Just curious, because I was fooling around with my trusty XVert Air (you know, that "ugly" fork), and I ended up switching out the stock 90 lb. medium coil for a 60 lb. soft coil. I'm only now achieving what I consider proper 1" sag without resorting to underpressurization of the fork's air chamber. Thing is, I weight ~200 pounds and the 60 lb spring is designated by Manitou for 145 pound riders. Really sweetened up the ride. Manitou Tech was beside themselves that it worked for someone my size. Your thoughts?

    Dusty, I made a guage for my rear shock setup. The AD12 I run has 1.5" of travel like your AVA does, but measures almost exactly 2.0" along the length of the shaft. So I just have a little plastic bit that I cut down that measures 1.5" (2.0" minus 0.5" for 1/3 sag) so I can just sit on the bike, reach down and make sure I have exactly 1.5" of shaft showing. Takes the guess work out of setup, and means you don't have to connect your air pump to double check pressure before a ride.

    I've tried to find a pivot location on the frame where I can tape two alignment marks that will only line up when I'm at proper sag, but can't find a suitable location.

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    Good help!

    Thanks for the reply, guys. 13mm is almost exactly .5" so I'm on target there. By the end of the week the fork will be broken in and I'll dial up some preload as you suggest, Todd. (Thanks again for the knowledgeable support; your customer service is putting every other bike company I've dealt with to shame.)

    Generally, at 1/3 sag you will use your riding weight in the air chamber when in the 4.5" setting. In the 3.75" setting you will use less air pressure.

    Uh oh. I have the new rear and linkage, but I think the linkage only has one set of holes. I didn't just lose 2/3" of travel, did I?!? Please let me know.

    Nate: I think you're onto something. The Manitou Black Sport setup instructions clearly have me in the "firm" spring kit zone at near 190#, but checking sag in a comfortable position in the saddle with hands on bars allows me to reach the recommended sag of 18-24mm with the preload dialed up, which I shouldn't be able to do. Either the fork spring is firmer than listed, I magically have a firm spring already in there, or more of my weight is to the rear than on my hardtail (which also has a Manitou shock and is carefully set up for the right sag).

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedüb Nate
    Hey Todd, does the Hollowpoint have more of a rearward rider weight bias than your "average" bike?
    Not really, though some ppl think the TT's a long. The Aussies like the HP's a ton b/c they can ride our over the frt wheel. What some clips of Bryn Atkinson in vids and you'll see exactly what I mean. If you ride on the frt wheel some you can get a wicked fun rally drift going on a HP.

    Just curious, because I was fooling around with my trusty XVert Air (you know, that "ugly" fork), and I ended up switching out the stock 90 lb. medium coil for a 60 lb. soft coil. I'm only now achieving what I consider proper 1" sag without resorting to underpressurization of the fork's air chamber. Thing is, I weight ~200 pounds and the 60 lb spring is designated by Manitou for 145 pound riders. Really sweetened up the ride. Manitou Tech was beside themselves that it worked for someone my size. Your thoughts?
    I think the big thing here is that the dw-link suspension system works so well by comparison to many other designs that you no longer have to rely as much on the fork for taking the hits allowing you to better tune your fork.

    Quote Originally Posted by dusty
    Generally, at 1/3 sag you will use your riding weight in the air chamber when in the 4.5" setting. In the 3.75" setting you will use less air pressure.

    Uh oh. I have the new rear and linkage, but I think the linkage only has one set of holes. I didn't just lose 2/3" of travel, did I?!? Please let me know.
    Early last season we intro'd multi position links (4.5/3.75"). These were sent out to retrofit all 03 model bikes. If you need a pair you can contact us at 800-645-5477 ext 209 or contact your dealer.

    -ska todd

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    Good call on the fork, Todd. I dialed in the preload to give me 18mm sag (it had been around 30mm during break-in) and the bike feels tight, really dialed in. This already has me carving some downhills at speeds that seem a little too fast , but the bike responds very well. Climbing is better, too. Now if I can just work out the Hayes HMX-1 problems, I'll be set.

    I'm even more puzzled by the weight / preload issues, though. I weighed myself again: 187, but to get 1/3 measured sag in the rear I'm still only pumping 140-145# in the Float AVA, and, as I said above, I'm able to get Answer's minimum recommended sag (18mm) with the stock (medium) fork spring kit and about 85% preload adjustment, although their tech manual implies that I shouldn't be able to. Any idea why these numbers are off? I have a Manitou SX-R on my hardtail and I DID need to get the heavy spring to get proper sag.....




    ska todd wrote: "You may also want to play with your fork settings some. You said in your previous post that you are running it soft. Try stiffening the fork a little fork and you will see a change in the rear suspension performance."
    Last edited by dusty; 08-04-2004 at 11:47 PM.

  10. #10
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    Do you by chance have the shock set in the 3.75" travel position (upper mounting holes on the linkage)? This could account for the lower pressure.

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    Hey Nate

    This is still a little confusing. Bruce sent the new "non-smack-the-seat-tube" swingarm but no linkage, so the shop took one off an early '04 Hollowpoint Expert that was still boxed (at least that's what they told me, and I do recall "2004" in big black print on the box), and it has only one shock-mount position. Looking at the IHB website this option (updated swingarm but single-setting linkage) cannot be found. Maybe Todd can tell me how much travel I must have? Were there very early '04s without the two-position linkage? Todd suggested getting a new linkage so I have the two setting option, and I will call Bruce. But between waiting for the new rear end and the Hayes mechanical brake issues, the bike has been in the shop too much for being 32 days old. Since it's riding great now (just not stopping as well as I'd like), I'm not going back to the shop until the new calipers arrive. I can deal with the cramping hands for awhile! (You don't want to upgrade my brakes, do you Todd? to match my new swingarm? )

    If you've followed my posts you know I've been putting on the miles (probably best to write "hours") on some steep fire roads since I'm nursing a healing broken rib. Next week the bike will get some real riding when I visit family on Utah's Wasatch front (where I lived last year) and take it up and down more challenging terrain. I'll see how it does head-to-head with my father-in-law's Yeti and our friend's FSR.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dusty
    so the shop took one off an early '04 Hollowpoint Expert that was still boxed (at least that's what they told me, and I do recall "2004" in big black print on the box), and it has only one shock-mount position. Looking at the IHB website this option (updated swingarm but single-setting linkage) cannot be found. Maybe Todd can tell me how much travel I must have? Were there very early '04s without the two-position linkage?
    The 04 bikes ALL have 2 position linkages. What may be confusing you is that there is an additional shock brace between the linkage this year. The shock bolts into this brace and the brace bolts into the linkage. The whole piece can be turned over so that the shock is bolted in the lower setting also. I think this may be your problem Can you take a cpl pics of your linkage so we can see how you are running it?

    -ska todd

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    Is this your linkage?




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    Hey dudes...

    That clears up just about everything. I was going to go take a picture but then saw Nate's and mine is the same (except Nate's is insanely clean ) I guess I was thrown off by an '04 Team or Expert on the showroom floor that didn't have the shock brace, just two big empty holes at the top. My shock, like yours, Nate, is in the top hole, so I'm running 3.75" which explains the air pressure. Funny thing is that I read that old post about rear setup and switching holes awhile ago, but the shock brace looked so permanent that I didn't realize I had the part I was reading about (the larger bolt heads add to that appearance of permanence). As usual, thanks. Rode this morning, solid uphill, fast downhill, caught some air (brakes screamed so the deer all got out of the way, the snakes just don't care and I got rattled at big time). Love the bike, just got to do something brake-wise.

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    Ta-da!

    Yeah, I'm pretty anal about washing and polishing my bike after every ride -- not. Those photos are so insanely clean because they're pictures I snapped of a brand spanking new '04 Hollowpoint when I first saw one in the store. There's a post I put up here showing some of the changes between the '04 and the '03 Hollowpoints (I own an '03):

    XPOST '03-'04 Hollowpoint Changes

    So I assume you figured out the part about rotating the shock shaft 180° to make the valve clear the lower position?

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