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  1. #1
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    Is that an Iron Horse Hustler/Hollowpoint?

    as topic says, plz look at pic's. Is it iron horse? I know that in early 2002 manufactury called A-PRO have offered some other companies to sell their frames under own brand (frames were very similiar to those at pic's).

    http://antalx.w.interia.pl/rower4.jpg
    http://www.net26.pl/~crategus/rower/rower.jpg
    http://www.net26.pl/~crategus/rower/bok2.jpg
    http://www.net26.pl/~crategus/rower/zawieszenie.jpg


    details are nearly same (rear triangle, links/arms) as the IH Hustler/Hollowpoint 2002 (look here: http://www.epinions.com/bicycles_200..._Horse_Hustler )...
    so?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by crategus
    as topic says, plz look at pic's. Is it iron horse? I know that in early 2002 manufactury called A-PRO have offered some other companies to sell their frames under own brand (frames were very similiar to those at pic's).
    Iron Horse has (and still does) build frames with A-Pro. They are one of the biggest and best frame manufacturers in Taiwan. The list of companies they build for is a who'-who of the bike industry.

    The bike in the pics is very similar to the Mk II Hollowpoint frame introduced at Interbike '01 and shares many frame component parts (linkages, yokes, etc). I don't know exacts on the tubing or geometry details of the frame in the pics. There were very few Iron Horse frames made using that design (< 100pcs) as we made the switch to the dw-link system for Mk II.5 frames.

    -ska todd
    Last edited by ska todd; 07-28-2004 at 12:48 PM.

  3. #3
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    ok, so what about this. Here you've got:
    http://www.net26.pl/~crategus/rower/cz1.jpg
    http://www.net26.pl/~crategus/rower/cz2.jpg

    it is scan from one of the bike magazins (2001). You can read there that (under the pic of A-Pro frame): "That Manufactory from Taiwan only waiting for a call from a company that would like to make a own sticker with 'VPP'."
    So that model (and also a Hollowpoint 01 and 02) was designed by A-Pro. They used VPP technology (yet not patented by Santa Cruz), and then IH used it... Next VPP mark become reserved by SC. Then IH switched to DW-link with 2002.5 Hollowpoint, but only difference were position of linkarm holding damper (from up to down) and some frame geometry. It's still based on old VPP (kinematic suspension)- same linkarms, same "virtual" pivot point with double pivots holding same rear triangle. Isn't DW-Link come straight from A-Pro? Or i'm wrong?

    03: http://www.epinions.com/bicycles_200...lowpoint_Sport
    02: http://www.epinions.com/bicycles_200...se_Hollowpoint


    ps. 01/02 model was with 4" travel (or 4,5")?

    crat

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by crategus
    it is scan from one of the bike magazins (2001). You can read there that (under the pic of A-Pro frame): "That Manufactory from Taiwan only waiting for a call from a company that would like to make a own sticker with 'VPP'."
    So that model (and also a Hollowpoint 01 and 02) was designed by A-Pro.
    Yes, that model was designed/built in cooperation w/ A-Pro. The tube spec, geometry, and some details were specified by Iron Horse. At that time Iron Horse purchased many frames "off the shelf" or designed in connection with a frame factory as we were a much smaller brand. Iron Horse has since grown in size and is now producing several proprietary designs.

    Quote Originally Posted by crategus
    They used VPP technology (yet not patented by Santa Cruz), and then IH used it... Next VPP mark become reserved by SC.
    Iron Horse worked with A-Pro on the original Hollowpoint totally seperate from Santa Cruz and with no knowledge of Santa Cruz aquiring the Outland VPP patent design.

    Quote Originally Posted by crategus
    Then IH switched to DW-link with 2002.5 Hollowpoint, but only difference were position of linkarm holding damper (from up to down) and some frame geometry. It's still based on old VPP (kinematic suspension)- same linkarms, same "virtual" pivot point with double pivots holding same rear triangle. Isn't DW-Link come straight from A-Pro? Or i'm wrong?
    dw-link has NO connection to A-Pro other than that they manufactured frames for us using the dw-link suspension system. dw-link was developed by Dave Weagle. When we contacted Dave in late 01 about working with us, he had already been working on the principles of the dw-link system. We were able to apply the system to the Mk II Hollowpoint frame and created the Hollowpoint Mk II.5 frame. This frame was used for model year 02.5, 03, and 04 Hollowpoint bikes. The Mk III frame will be introduced this fall and also incorporates the dw-link system.

    Quote Originally Posted by crategus
    ps. 01/02 model was with 4" travel (or 4,5")?
    The history of the Hollowpoint frame is as follows:

    Mk I - 00/01 - FSR style design, 4" travel
    Mk II - 02 - VPP style design, 5" travel
    Mk II.5 - 02.5, 03 - dw-link design, 5" travel
    Mk II.75 - 04 - dw-link design w/ adjustable travel (3.75"/4.5") & revised rear triangle
    Mk III - 05 - dw-link, 5" travel

    -ska todd

  5. #5
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    Ska Todd wrote something like:
    Mk III available fall.

    Forgive me for being an ignorant Aussie, but I've always wondered what (and when??) 'FALL' is.

    Edit: gave some context. How do I quote in an edit-PM me if you know.
    Last edited by dovid; 07-28-2004 at 11:19 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by dovid
    Forgive me for being an ignorant Aussie, but I've always wondered what (and when??) 'FALL' is.
    Fall is American speak for Autumn (ie. Sept, Oct, Nov).

    -ska todd

  7. #7
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    Thank You very much for so precise reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by ska todd
    Yes, that model was designed/built in cooperation w/ A-Pro. The tube spec, geometry, and some details were specified by Iron Horse.
    Didn't A-Pro built that frame before it was sold (as a project rights) to IH? (only different thing that i see was changed cable routes). At least that can be presumed from the above scaned part of newspaper. Also Hai Bikes use same frame purchased from A-Pro.

    http://allegro.pl/show_item.php?item=27176529
    http://allegro.pl/show_item.php?item=26886438

    Quote Originally Posted by ska todd
    dw-link has NO connection to A-Pro other than that they manufactured frames for us using the dw-link suspension system. dw-link was developed by Dave Weagle.
    What is the difference in movement route of rear triangle between >>>Mk II - 02 - VPP style design<<< and >>>Mk II.5 - 02.5, 03 - dw-link design<<< ? U can check it with Linkage program (http://www.icpnet.pl/~cichom/linkage.rar) I admit that I didn't check that but i guess that are nearly same... Isn't dw-link based (same as VPP style A-Pro frame) on double pivot link (virtual point) that makes it similiar to VPP? Ok, i know- isn't 'based' but if in result, rear suspension's movement is same, then difference between that 2 frames is only in trade name (and cosmetic changes in geometry lines i.e. "no banana" top tube)

    http://www.ironhorsebikes.com/images...t_geometry.gif (dw-link)
    http://www.dynamo.com.pl/zdjecia/prz...ironhorse1.jpg (vpp)

    Quote Originally Posted by ska todd
    The history of the Hollowpoint frame is as follows:
    Mk I - 00/01 - FSR style design, 4" travel
    Mk II - 02 - VPP style design, 5" travel
    Mk II.5 - 02.5, 03 - dw-link design, 5" travel
    Mk II.75 - 04 - dw-link design w/ adjustable travel (3.75"/4.5") & revised rear triangle
    Mk III - 05 - dw-link, 5" travel
    THX for that!

  8. #8
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    There's some good reading here: What's better engineering: DW-Link or VPP?

    You can find similar posts on mtbr, ridemonkey and hcor.net by searching the forums for "dw-link AND vpp", including comments from the designer.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by crategus
    Thank You very much for so precise reply.
    Of course, anytime! Thanks for asking questions and participating.

    Quote Originally Posted by crategus
    Didn't A-Pro built that frame before it was sold (as a project rights) to IH? (only different thing that i see was changed cable routes). At least that can be presumed from the above scaned part of newspaper. Also Hai Bikes use same frame purchased from A-Pro.
    To be honest, I inherited the Mk II design platform from the previous product manager so I do not know all of the details of the relationship between IH & A-Pro at that time. My understanding of it was that IH had N. American rights to the design in exchange for feedback and design ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by crategus
    What is the difference in movement route of rear triangle between >>>Mk II - 02 - VPP style design<<< and >>>Mk II.5 - 02.5, 03 - dw-link design<<< ?
    U can check it with Linkage program (http://www.icpnet.pl/~cichom/linkage.rar) I admit that I didn't check that but i guess that are nearly same... Isn't dw-link based (same as VPP style A-Pro frame) on double pivot link (virtual point) that makes it similiar to VPP? Ok, i know- isn't 'based' but if in result, rear suspension's movement is same, then difference between that 2 frames is only in trade name (and cosmetic changes in geometry lines i.e. "no banana" top tube)
    No, dw-link is quite a bit superior than VPP in both function and performance. While both are multiple link designs they are completely different in how they perform. I urge you to check out www.dw-link.com for some good info on the concepts behind the dw-link system.

    -ska todd

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