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  1. #1
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    Feedback for a different shock.

    I have a 2003 Hollowpoint expert with Fox AVA (no propedal or lockout). The DW link suspension works pretty well. However, when I am out of the saddle or pedaling uphill really hard, I can't help but feel it suck up some energy. I bought the bike last year and now that I have xc raced it for half a season, I think I want a different rear shock.

    Looking for feedback on a different shock for the rear that might be worth trying. Specifically:

    Fox:
    1. I have never used a lockout and do not know how much those who do have one actually use it. I understand that locking out the shock will turn off rear suspension, but what adv/disadvantages do people who use them find? Is it worth having for my design?

    2. Propedal feature: Does the propedal work as well as advertised? Is it a significant improvement over the non-propedal AVA that I currently have?

    The 2004 IH bikes come with Prog 5ths. Any comparisons to 2003 AVA would be appreciated. How do Prog 5th compare to FOX propedal shocks?

    Have not really considered any other shocks, but input is appreciated.

    Mike
    Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time... You silly English KI-NIGGIT

  2. #2
    Crawlin' like a Crawfish!
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    5th element

    I have a 2003 holowpoint that I put a 5th element air shock on to replace the lame fox vanilla it came with. I thought that would help the bob and sinking feeling you get when hammering hard. Yes, it is much more plush but this thing about all the sag is impossible IMHO. Whenever I set it to have 20-25% sag it bobs even on flat ground. When I set it to get rid of the bob I run out of pressure on the shock. Right now I run 150# of pressure in the main and I only weigh 180#, this is just to get the bob to stop. I know this takes away from the plushness of the ride. I can't find a balance. Everyone talks highly of this DW link. I wish I could acheive what it was designed for.
    If you try something and it settles the issue please let me know. I'm not in the position to buy a new frame and wouldn't know what to get that would be better.

  3. #3
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    Hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by zoo00oom
    I have a 2003 holowpoint that I put a 5th element air shock on to replace the lame fox vanilla it came with. I thought that would help the bob and sinking feeling you get when hammering hard. Yes, it is much more plush but this thing about all the sag is impossible IMHO. Whenever I set it to have 20-25% sag it bobs even on flat ground. When I set it to get rid of the bob I run out of pressure on the shock. Right now I run 150# of pressure in the main and I only weigh 180#, this is just to get the bob to stop. I know this takes away from the plushness of the ride. I can't find a balance. Everyone talks highly of this DW link. I wish I could acheive what it was designed for.
    If you try something and it settles the issue please let me know. I'm not in the position to buy a new frame and wouldn't know what to get that would be better.

    I have had very good resulds when I set the AVA at mid spring rate and achieve a 30 % sag. I am just looking to get a bit more efficiency on really hard climbs (mostly for racing xc). Otherwise I like the ride.
    Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time... You silly English KI-NIGGIT

  4. #4
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    Idea! shocks

    For years I rode a Trek Y33 with a thumb lockout on a Stratos XCPro. When I got my Hollowpoint it felt squishy in the backend on the climbs just as you are explaining. I ended up moving the shock to the higher position and then making air adjustments from there. It took some time, but I finally got it to where it was great on climbs and good on the roots and rocks. And all this with the AD5 which basically has nothing. I ride aggresive XC. Play around with it before giving up on the shock all together, the HP responds nicely on ups and downs when setup well. I'm 165 and ride the shock at 215lbs. hope that helps. ~eyeguy

  5. #5
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    Reputation: ska todd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoo00oom
    I thought that would help the bob and sinking feeling you get when hammering hard. Yes, it is much more plush but this thing about all the sag is impossible IMHO. Whenever I set it to have 20-25% sag it bobs even on flat ground. When I set it to get rid of the bob I run out of pressure on the shock. Right now I run 150# of pressure in the main and I only weigh 180#, this is just to get the bob to stop. I know this takes away from the plushness of the ride. I can't find a balance. Everyone talks highly of this DW link. I wish I could acheive what it was designed for.
    couple quick questions so I can help w/ your set-up problems...

    1. what travel position are you running? 3.75 or 4.5"?
    2. how much pressure are you running in the IFP end of the shock?
    3. what bike(s) were you riding prior to the HP?

    At quick glance, I think what you are are experiencing is the not shock 'bob' but the suspension working. The bike will perform in the optimal range at 1/3 sag. The bike will still pour down the power even with the shock movement. The dw-link design is NOT a lockout, it is an efficient suspension design. The suspension should move but you shouldn't stink-bug/wallow.

    -ska todd

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sircrashalot
    Fox:
    1. I have never used a lockout and do not know how much those who do have one actually use it. I understand that locking out the shock will turn off rear suspension, but what adv/disadvantages do people who use them find? Is it worth having for my design?
    In our view, lockout is a bandaid to a poor suspension design or shock. I think the only real uses for lockout would be for elite level xc racers on paved sections or for the if they are coming off a hardtail.

    2. Propedal feature: Does the propedal work as well as advertised? Is it a significant improvement over the non-propedal AVA that I currently have?
    yes/no IMO. I think propedal maybe feels better for bigger or more agressive riders as it is just firmer compression. I liked it for 4x/jumping but not really for XC.

    The 2004 IH bikes come with Prog 5ths. Any comparisons to 2003 AVA would be appreciated. How do Prog 5th compare to FOX propedal shocks?

    Have not really considered any other shocks, but input is appreciated.
    The 5th's are stinkin light for a rear shock. They are also quite adjustable. We like to use the 5th's to tune bottom out and not really for the pedalling platform. I personally like the feel of the 5th's vs the propedal Floats. The DT shock also looks promising. They have a lot of spec in Europe. Have you considered having your shock PUSHed?

    -ska todd

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoo00oom
    I set it to have 20-25% sag it bobs even on flat ground.
    This is partially the problem MBA ran into in their review -- overinflated, undersagged. If you're really only in the 20 to 25 percent range, any bob you're experiencing is your pedaling trying to compress the suspension. Aim for a full 1/2" of sag -- that's right around the 33% mark -- and make incremental adjustments from there to fine tune.

    That's the one thing you can't get away with on a dw-link where you're able to take liberties on other suspension designs: the suspension setup has to be close to spot on otherwise it works against you.

  8. #8
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    Pushed...

    Not saavy in the world of push. Is that going to help me with any of the aforementioned issues? What advantages will a PUSH give me?
    Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time... You silly English KI-NIGGIT

  9. #9
    Crawlin' like a Crawfish!
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    RE: couple quick questions so I can help w/ your set-up problems...

    Quote Originally Posted by ska todd
    couple quick questions so I can help w/ your set-up problems...

    1. what travel position are you running? 3.75 or 4.5"?
    2. how much pressure are you running in the IFP end of the shock?
    3. what bike(s) were you riding prior to the HP?

    At quick glance, I think what you are are experiencing is the not shock 'bob' but the suspension working. The bike will perform in the optimal range at 1/3 sag. The bike will still pour down the power even with the shock movement. The dw-link design is NOT a lockout, it is an efficient suspension design. The suspension should move but you shouldn't stink-bug/wallow.

    -ska todd
    1. I only have one place for the shock, does this mean it is a 2002.5?
    2. I have tried from 80 to 125# I have it in 100# now.
    3. hardtail, but I also have a weyless XP single pivot with a 5th element that I can run pretty soft and not see the shock moving that much during regular pedalling..

    It seems when I have tried to run the larger amount of sag that my bottom bracket is pretty low and I smack my pedals in rooty sections.
    Thanks for your reply.

  10. #10
    I like air!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sircrashalot
    1. I have never used a lockout and do not know how much those who do have one actually use it. I understand that locking out the shock will turn off rear suspension, but what adv/disadvantages do people who use them find? Is it worth having for my design?
    Mike
    I have a lock-out on my Tracer and I very rarely use it. The problem is the only time I ever need it is on super steep climbs and as soon as I lock out the rear I feel like I loose traction.

    My suggestion is stay in the saddle on those tough climbs.

  11. #11
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    ska Todd?

    could you check out my reply to your post to see if you have any suggestions. Thanks for your time.
    Nick

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoo00oom
    1. I only have one place for the shock, does this mean it is a 2002.5?
    Yes and no. You could have an early production 03 that the dealer did not swap out the linkage on.

    2. I have tried from 80 to 125# I have it in 100# now.
    Drop it to the minimum recommended mfgr setting.

    3. hardtail, but I also have a weyless XP single pivot with a 5th element that I can run pretty soft and not see the shock moving that much during regular pedalling..
    The Weyless is a single pivot bike and depending on the pivot location and shock set-up could have a degree of lockout or firming up under pedalling. This does not happen on the dw-link bikes.

    It seems when I have tried to run the larger amount of sag that my bottom bracket is pretty low and I smack my pedals in rooty sections.
    The Hollowpoints have a lower BB than some bikes out there. You may tag your pedals some but you learn to adapt your pedalling style around this. The low BB makes the bikes rip the downhill sections faster and help with the cornering ability.

    -ska todd

  13. #13
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    bob

    I fooled around with the settings a lot in the first month I had my Hollowpoint (I'm in month two now), and I have the Float w/AVA. What Todd said about the shock being active is important: in a hard climb if I look down the shock is very active, but the movement isn't translating to bob. If I look up the trail or focus on the movement of the rest of the bike it's steady. As for out of the saddle climbing, the HP isn't going to be as stable as a hardtail without lockout or some kind on SPV (the latter probably won't get it hardtail-stable either). I weigh 185# and do some steep climbs and I've learned two things: first, I stay seated more. This allows the DW link to do its thing. I only get out of the saddle every now and then to get the blood flowing. Second, if I do need to stand for a shot of power I extend farther forward than I do on my hardtail and try to keep my pedal stroke more even, instead of hammering down.

  14. #14
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    tried Todd's advice

    Last night I lowered the IFP to 75#. Which is the lower limit printed on my shock. Then I reset the sag to 33%. I went for a ride and made an effort to not look at the shock while I was riding. It wasn't a very technical trail but I did notice a difference in the ride, especially in cornering. I ran the Black super air softer, to try to balance the feeling front to back. I was amazed how great it tracked through switchbacks. This trail is high speed and you crank constantly. By going into the corners harder I shaved almost a minute off my lap time.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoo00oom
    Last night I lowered the IFP to 75#. Which is the lower limit printed on my shock. Then I reset the sag to 33%. I went for a ride and made an effort to not look at the shock while I was riding. It wasn't a very technical trail but I did notice a difference in the ride, especially in cornering. I ran the Black super air softer, to try to balance the feeling front to back. I was amazed how great it tracked through switchbacks. This trail is high speed and you crank constantly. By going into the corners harder I shaved almost a minute off my lap time.
    My X-Vert Air, which is about the closest thing to your Black Super Air, needed some help as well. Under the stock "Medium" spring, which is installed with a 150 to 180 pound rider in mind, was too stiff for my 200+ pound weight. I had to air the fork down to 100 psi to get the proper 1" sag out of the 4" travel.

    I ended up installing a "Soft" spring (130 to 150 rider weight range) and, combined with about 140 psi in the air chamber, I am getting a much better balanced ride. The fork's small bump compliance with the lighter spring installed is smooth like the dw-link but I haven't lost my bottom-out cushion now that I have a reasonable amount of air pressure in the fork's main chamber.

    I'm convinced that 'bob' -- and the inefficiencies we attribute to it -- is in large part a mind game. I could feel any amount of suspension movement on my Joshua 'Y' bike due to the changing relation of the bottom bracket to the saddle; I could "feel" suspension movement on my NRS through variances in resistance to the pedal stroke. The Hollowpoint unarguably has some small amount of suspension bob on smooth terrain, but due to the dw-link's careful design specifically to eliminate pedal feedback under all but the most extreme suspension compression, the uninterrupted and smooth pedal stroke leaves the rider with the perception that the bike is 100% rock solid beneath him. To accomplish this transitionless crank spinning while the suspension responds to everything from the smallest rocks and roots to moderate washboard sections leaves my legs feeling fresh the whole climb -- after a year-and-a-half, I still can't believe I'm climbing on a 5" travel bike with no tricky gizmos or suspension bandaids.

  16. #16
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    ... and if we just ... tried a hardtail

    During this period of trying to get the hollowpoint dialed in I built up a Jamis Dragon. It absolutley beat me to death. The HP makes me be able to ride virtually every day, the Dragon required a couple of days to recover. And yes, some is to do with the 41 year old body!

  17. #17
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    PUSH that thing!

    Well,

    I didn't suffer any bob when seated climbs occured on my 03 HP Expert. (Float RL AVA Shock). And, just a little on out of seat climbs. But, I got my AVA shocked PUSHed (From PUSH Industries). Do a search. You will see my big write up. It was just amazing the difference in ride and control I got. Well worth the $$. Here is a pic of my bike w/ the PUSH shock. BTW, make sure you set up the sag correctly. Makes a HUGE difference.
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