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DW Link--Is it truly superior?

10K views 83 replies 38 participants last post by  Ridge Rider 
#1 ·
This is a question for Derby, DW, or anyone else with both DW Link and general suspension expertise.

I have read many of Derby's and DW's comments on the superiority of the DW Link but remain confused.

In viewing the animation of the 2005 MKIII using Linkage v2.5, it would appear that the largely rearward axle path of this bike results in pedal kickback of up to 21 degrees in the 36/16 gear combo. The kickback declines to a maximum of 16 degrees in the 44/11 combo, but rises to a whopping 36 degrees in the 22/16 combo. These figures assume that only the rear wheel is moving. When you factor in the movement of the front suspension, which results in a forward pivoting of the bottom bracket, the overall feedback rises even higher. I fail to understand how the DW Link can be justified as superior when many other suspension designs demonstrate far less feedback. Are we dealing with a tradeoff here between bob and feedback? If so, this would represent simply a different type of good design to me, not a design that's superior to everything else.

Furthermore, my understanding is that the DW Link reduces bob by using the chain tension created by pedaling to push the rear wheel in a direction (rearward) opposite the direction that results in compression of the suspension--at least, the DW Link does this during the first part of the rear axis's travel. This process, almost by definition, would indeed seem to reduce the compression of the suspension that we know as "bob." However, while the rider can observe his spring and smile at the lack of movement, is he really saving his body's energy? It would seem to me that the rider is wasting energy on driving the rear wheel backwards--and perhaps even excessively downwards on hardpacked terrain--instead of driving the whole bike forwards as much as possible. In other words, the lack of bob may be true, but at least some of the gain in efficiency may be an illustion. A bike that keeps the wheel vertical during initial travel and that has a pivot placed in a manner so as to reduce the opportunity for the rider to lift the rear merely by pedaling would seem like it would offer superior efficiency.

Derby, if you respond, it would be interesting to know your affiliations, if any, as well. Are you a champion of the DW Link simply based on your analyses, or are you affiliated with Ibis or Iron Horse in any way?
 
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#52 ·
String the Marketer bastards up by their balls

wyrm said:
The other day I talked to a rep. and an engineer for a reputable company.... I was told that "brake jack is a marketing myth."
three states while braking

Damper extension - CG shifts up and forward

Damper neutral - CG mainly shifts forward from slowing of momentum

Damper compression - CG Drives down and forward

Take your pick for your riding style - Personally I like a slight extension in some situations.

Of course as always your milage may vary
 
#55 ·
Nice picture. Hey, does anyone have a picture of Dave Weagle wearing a crown? The reason I ask- I want to hang the picture on my wall. When I wake-up every morning, I want to PRAY to The Suspension King..... The Suspension God..... The Bike Lord!!!!

Long Live The King!!!!
 
#56 ·
With regard to the technical reasons for the DW-Link's superiority, I will leave it up to DERBY. All I can say is my bike search took sooo long, when I did purchase my MKIII, my friend's claimed HELL FROZE OVER!

The simple act of me showing up to the trail on a DW Link bike was all the "PROOF" my large group of (VPP, SP, ICT, TNT, HL equipped) riding buddies that there must be something to the DW LINK. If it was good enough for me, it had to be good.

I simply wanted a bike that was comfortable to ride, efficient, was active under braking, didn't make my skin crawl due to brake jack, soaked up bumps, was free of pedal kickback, had loads of traction, climbed well while seated, climbed welll when standing.... Basically, I wanted it all... And I got it! Thanks Dave!!

Special Thanks to Todd at Iron Horse. You Da' Man!!!
 
#57 · (Edited)
I agree with DrtRider, I didn't have the time or the money to make a bad choice on my new bike. Heck I haven't need to buy one for almost 15 years! I was going from a hardtail to fullsuspension and didnt want to give anything up. I wanted to have some gains out of my new bike. The traction is stupid with my MKIII. When ever I ride its with the same guys and we all "have been" at the same riding skill level. They ride a Heckler and FSR and I out climb them every single time. I have to give credit to the bike. I have been riding the same trails and the same amount for years. The only difference is the DW-Link. DW if you ever come to New England let us know so we can get a ride together. Imagen the fleet of DW bikes that would be! I got a beer with your name on it too.
 
#58 ·
My experience

I've only ridden first gen. DW-link (hollowpoint) but the more I ride the more "flaws" I find. Uphill or downhill the bike is great. Especially downhill. I could use a longer fork but that goes along with the "the more I ride" theme. Uphill it's nice, but pedal feedback is still there. After two seasons on it, I have cracked a freehub body lengthwise (steel Mavic Crossmax XL). In that respect my Yeti climbs better in all situations.

The biggest gripe I have is for when you are in between climbing and descending. Now it's not something that I usually look for, but sometimes you can't avoid it. On flat terrain it's a bob-fest. Riding on the big ring is not the hollowpoint's cup of tea. Standing on the big ring will downright compress the suspension almost completely... I realize that the various paths are optimized for a given average gear ratio, and maybe it's been enhanced on the later revisions of the design, but at the moment it's not something I enjoy. Lateral flex has also become extremely noticeable. Again the Yeti/Hollowpoint comparison is day/night in that respect.

I believe the setup is fairly dialed-in. After 3 years it better be. It's just that the amount of riding I do makes me feel things a lot differently on the bike. In those three years I have moved up from Sport to Semi-pro (XC), starting from scratch and coming to a point where I clean climbs that I deemed physically impossible before.

The bottom line is that I am going to replace the hollowpoint with a 575 for trail duty. I think for my style of riding the single-pivot long travel bike with platform damping will be a good compromise.

You mileage may vary, this is my own observation and anyone feel free to disagree. This design is very clever but in my experience still has its limitations.

Cheers,

Maurice
 
#59 ·
A lot has changed since the original Hollowpoint was designed in 2000-2001, and while I think the bikes do ride nicely, they can't really compare to the 2005+ dw-link bikes. Give a current generation MKIII or Mojo a ride and you will see how drastic the difference is.

It also sounds to me like you have either too little rebound damping set on your shock, or a blown shock, as the older Hollowpoint should definitely not be a "bob fest" at any time, especially compared to the single pivot Yeti.

Hope this helps

Dave
 
#60 ·
There are other reasons for my choice which have nothing to do here (this sentence is already too much...). I'm sure the design has come a long way so take all I'm saying with a grain of salt.

I agree the shock might be old, although the rebound still seems to function well. If I turn the knob to the max the bike ends up bottoming out in rock gardens. I'm "lucky" I have them flourishing right out my door... My wheels and tires don't agree on the "lucky" part.
Plus that would not affect compression, like I said it compresses a lot on the big ring when standing on the bike. I'm 150# all wet...

Thanks for taking the time.

Maurice
 
#61 ·
I can answer one small part of WFH's question.

Quote: Derby, if our body mass makes the suspension want to compress under acceleration and therefore causes the rear axle to move rearward, and if at the same time our pedalling force counteracts this by pulling the axle in the opposite direction, doesn't this mean that we're using some of our body's energy to resist suspension compression? /quote
I think this one is relatively easy. Work is force times distance. If the rear axle doesn't actually move rearward because the forces are balanced, then the distance and hence the work (energy) is zero. No energy wasted. It would be like having two equal weights on a balance (libra type :) scale. One could say that if one of those weights were removed, then the scale would tilt (an analogy to the rear tire moving backward) so there must be some energy being used to keep it balanced, but of course, being able to look at it in such a simple example, we can see that no energy is being used, the forces are simply balanced, and it takes no input of energy to keep the scale from moving.

Do you see? and it doesn't even have to be a complex explanation.

Someone might point out some way in which I'm wrong. It is possible, but at the moment it makes sense to me.

Don
 
#62 ·
The DW-Link just plain works. Keep your mind open, though. But keep in mind that it is Mr. Weagle's design that WORKS. Public Enemy said it best with '... don't believe the hype...' Then there was that funny scene from the flick 'Singles' with Public Enemy and Elvis Costello songs sung over a Grocery Scanner by a Clerk... Damn, Dave!!! Is the 'Orion' going to have Dual Air-Bags???
 
#63 ·
Maurice said:
There are other reasons for my choice which have nothing to do here (this sentence is already too much...). I'm sure the design has come a long way so take all I'm saying with a grain of salt.

I agree the shock might be old, although the rebound still seems to function well. If I turn the knob to the max the bike ends up bottoming out in rock gardens. I'm "lucky" I have them flourishing right out my door... My wheels and tires don't agree on the "lucky" part.
Plus that would not affect compression, like I said it compresses a lot on the big ring when standing on the bike. I'm 150# all wet...

Thanks for taking the time.

Maurice
I think the bottom bracket height has evolved to be a little higher than the typical FS because the bike wants to be run with a bit more % sag. If the pivot has moved up a bit there could be improvement in big ring sprints. It is easy for me to say this: Locking the fork goes a long way with the big ring sprint improvement as does a little adjustment to technique. Until Dave provides a not easy to make/teach instuctional video try sprinting like the girl in the ironhorse video.:)

If you run low tire pressures you get some sort of composite suspension response that might help in the rock gardens.

In short, there are multiple reasons Dave said look at the Ibis.
 
#70 ·
...that ain't 'Timothy McVeigh'... believe me, I know.
(Aside) Psst... 'Sir Weagle'... when you get out on 'Orion', an you have a sweet and creamy burnt yellow IHBC frame just beggin' for it (with some gnarly medium Red stickers...) don't forget your (new???) buddy, that's right!!! You can call me JimboLyeCrawFishPieChiliGumbo too!!!
 
#73 ·
Thanks for the pic! I can't keep from wiping the tears from my eyes. With this pic my life is complete. Every morning (starting tomorrow), I will light (3) candles and pray to the Suspension Lord. Tomorrow I will pray for a 2007 Sunday w/Totem fork, world peace and an end to global warming!!!
 
#74 ·
I know nothing of this crazy talk spewing from the brainiac engineers, but I too was looking to add a f/s bike and was coming from an oldar hardtail (98 Zaskar that I race) and therefore wanted a bike that would suck up single track stuff....roots, rocks, and bumps..... but did not want to have a bike that bobbed constantly or have to reach down every 15 seconds to lock out and open my shock. I rode a mess of bikes including the fsr, yeti enduro, rocky mountain element, blah blah... way too many rides and time lol :madmax: ... anyway... I thought the azure expert was the best f/s xc bike i rode hands down. And now that Ive had it for a few weeks and have had some real trail time I can;t stop thinking about getting back on the bike!!!! It's super comfortable and climbs like a champ!!!! Try one so you can stop wasting your time on boards and spend it on the trail:cornut:
 
#75 ·
I came from a hardtail to my first FS bike as well, and was also concerned with a rear suspension that bobbed, especially on climbs. I went with an '06 Azure Expert. After a few trail rides, I can honestly say that I don't even notice the rear suspension on the climbs at all; it climbs at least as well as my hardtail and descends a lot better. It's sweet.
 
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