Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gman086's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    3,575

    Angleset for 6 Point?

    Did I read right where Cane Creek came out with an external angleset that will allow for either a full one degree or half degree of slack for zero stack 44 headtubes? Who wouldn't be excited about slackening their 6 Point a degree?! Anyone do this yet? I have heard rumbling of clicking problems with anglesets in general but have no experience with them myself.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: wormvine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086
    Did I read right where Cane Creek came out with an external angleset that will allow for either a full one degree or half degree of slack for zero stack 44 headtubes? Who wouldn't be excited about slackening their 6 Point a degree?! Anyone do this yet? I have heard rumbling of clicking problems with anglesets in general but have no experience with them myself.

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    I haven't heard anything but the OP of this thread is making "made to order" slackening headsets. It looks like he is doing a zerostack version.
    5 spot with ~67 deg. HTA (or maybe a bit less)

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Terminator Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    320
    Um, Yea!!! I've been all over this as well. The May issue of Decline magazine shows the 44/44 Angleset on a Turner 5 Spot. I’ve just waiting for it to show up on Cane Creek's website so I can buy one!

    Saar's headsets seem pretty appetizing as well. Like Wormvine mentioned, they’re custom made to order, they use a different system than CC, and they can have more of a range of slackening than the 1 degree that CC will offer.

    I'm almost starting to consider Saar’s over CC's angleset. I've been hearing a lot of mixed reviews over CC's Angleset. People say that with the gimbal system, the headset comes loose, and people have to always tighten it back up. Also, on minor spills, it twists the handle bars easier. That could get annoying. Still want to look into and hear more opinions about it.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gman086's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    3,575
    Yeah, Saar's look nice but our dollar is worthless right now and I can't afford a $190 headset. Looks like CC can be just as expensive depending on the model tho! Someone posted one on their Reign in the Giant forum so they are available now.

    Cheers,

    G
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    110
    A guy on the Ridemonkey board was talking about installing one from Works Components.

    http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=241181

    I don't see the proper unit of the WC website though.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    763
    For a slacker HA you could try a headset externalizer on your 6 Point. I did run one on my 6 point and it helped somewhat. I used the one sold by Real World Cycled (http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id183.html - no affiliation to this company). Slackened out the bike by almost 1 degree.

    Good luck of getting your ride dialed.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gman086's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    3,575
    Quote Originally Posted by rideitall View Post
    For a slacker HA you could try a headset externalizer on your 6 Point. I did run one on my 6 point and it helped somewhat. I used the one sold by Real World Cycled (http://www.enduroforkseals.com/id183.html - no affiliation to this company). Slackened out the bike by almost 1 degree.

    Good luck of getting your ride dialed.
    Yup, I have one and works fine but not ideal as it raises the BB height making for compromised cornering and climbing.

    Have FUN!

    G
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Terminator Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    320
    Cane Creek EC44/ZS44 Angleset now on their website! Looks like the external cup is now on top.

    http://www.canecreek.com/component-h...C44%20|%20ZS44

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gman086's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    3,575
    Quote Originally Posted by Terminator Z View Post
    Cane Creek EC44/ZS44 Angleset now on their website! Looks like the external cup is now on top.

    http://www.canecreek.com/component-h...C44%20|%20ZS44
    Bummer, looks like too much stack height for me to use my current fork. Will have to go with Saar's version for another $50 but his goes up to 1.5 deg. Pic in this thread: 44|44 angleset

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation: wormvine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    3,163
    Quote Originally Posted by Gman086 View Post
    Bummer, looks like too much stack height for me to use my current fork. Will have to go with Saar's version for another $50 but his goes up to 1.5 deg. Pic in this thread: 44|44 angleset

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    nevermind.
    Last edited by wormvine; 05-29-2011 at 05:09 PM.

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    331
    Damn, I was just about to start a thread and then I saw this one.

    http://www.workscomponents.co.uk/10-...adset-69-p.asp

    Works just came out with theirs. I'm running only one spacer with my fork right now. Think the stack height will be too much with the CC angleset?

    How do I figure out the total length added to my head tube for total stack height?

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Gman086's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    3,575
    Quote Originally Posted by 92SE-R View Post
    Damn, I was just about to start a thread and then I saw this one.

    http://www.workscomponents.co.uk/10-...adset-69-p.asp

    Works just came out with theirs. I'm running only one spacer with my fork right now. Think the stack height will be too much with the CC angleset?

    How do I figure out the total length added to my head tube for total stack height?
    Looks like theirs is 9mm lower added to 15mm upper stack height for a total of 24mm. My steerer tube is simply cut too short for these not-to-mention I don't like adding any stack height under the headtube as that just raises the front wich is what I'm trying to avoid! It looks like the least added stack height will be with Saar's design - 0-2mm on bottom and 15-18mm on top?

    Have FUN!

    G MAN
    "There's two shuttles, one to the top and one to the hospital" I LOVE this place!!!

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by rideitall View Post
    For a slacker HA you could try a headset externalizer on your 6 Point. I did run one on my 6 point and it helped somewhat. I used the one sold by Real World Cycled ([]] - no affiliation to this company). Slackened out the bike by almost 1 degree.

    Good luck of getting your ride dialed.
    There's a lot of headsets from Nuke Proof suiting for the same purpose. 44 mm internal diameter with external lower cup both normal and deep cup. You can find it on chain reaction cycles but i don't know how convenient it could be for USA buyers (just for matter of shipping costs).
    If you don't know this brand i can say is a good one ;-) I have both a 760mm handlebar (very light and strong) and also a seatpost that could be I nice substitute for a thomson elite at a cheaper price (at least for a european buyer) and a little lighter weight

    ps: neither I have any affiliation to this company

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    24
    Thats my 6 Point 7 with -2° Works Components headset.
    (edit cannot post pic properly as I need to have 10 posts beforehand..)



    My steerer is mighty short too. Only 28mm available for stem (which I flipped). It's working but really on the limit as I can see that the top gap is smaller than the bottom gap at the screws (stem is 35mm high, so ideal would be 32-33mm free length).

    With 180mm fork it is now superslack 64.13°. Yeehaa, attack that gnar stuff. (it exchanges my 7 Point 2007 medium because I wanted lower bottom bracket and even slacker HA (my 7 point is at 65°).

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Terminator Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    320
    Quote Originally Posted by extremecarver View Post
    Thats my 6 Point 7 with -2° Works Components headset.
    (edit cannot post pic properly as I need to have 10 posts beforehand..)
    You're almost there. I wanna see it!

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    24
    well nothin...

  17. #17
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    24
    Here we go:

    Cannot make closeup as right now the bike is at my LBS to grind out 7cm of my seattube (last 12cm are not ground) so even though I'm using a 30mm seattube it does not go in fully

  18. #18
    banned
    Reputation: Uncle Jemima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    512
    Sketchy-steering can be tamed by using one rising-point when you match your bars and stem, instead of a riser bar and a riser stem.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    24
    Well the bar is 18mm rise, and the stem is 6°. That's why I put the stem upside down.

    The headtube measures 135mm. Add the 24mm that are needed for external headset and you get to 159mm, before you can place the stem. I already use a superlow stem (just 35mm clamp height), but turning it upside down (instead of 5mm rise, it then gives 5mm lower - it's only 47mm long anyhow). On my 7 point I had 140mm plus 10mm spacer which was pretty much spot on (I had a 11mm thick lower cup - which I needed for frame clearance).

    True a flatbar and stem not flopped, would save some weight (maybe 25g?) and get me another 10mm lower.

    I'll still get offset bushings to get the angles about 1° flatter overall and BB 5mm lower. Then I'll get to 63° head angle, that sound mighty right for vertriding. No HA can be too flat if it gets gnarly steep.

  20. #20
    banned
    Reputation: Uncle Jemima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    512
    Quote Originally Posted by extremecarver View Post
    No HA can be too flat if it gets gnarly steep.
    Yeah, you have so many angles introduced into the axis of steering control that you altered your angle of steering. You may have inadvertantly installed the disconnect between terrain feedback to your hands by seperating the right angles. Across-the-board a slackened HT Angle will track better over a steepened HT Angle, but a stem built with a rise will have a moment, a moment where it will act as a 0 deg. rise stem on its axis.
    There will also be a ramping-up to where your energy controling the steering angle exchanges energy doing this function upon the vertical axis.
    Regardless of where you will set your steering angle, forces trying to change it will act upon the weighted-effect perpindicular to the ground.

    I run zero-degree rise stems, rise @ my Handlebar and alter 1/8" stem height increases.

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    24
    Correct me if I am wrong. But if you have a 50+Xmm 5° stem or a 50mm 0° stem and a spacer of Y, and both constructions result in the same handlebar position, then there is absolutely no difference on the forces (as long as the HA is not changed).

  22. #22
    banned
    Reputation: Uncle Jemima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    512
    Quote Originally Posted by extremecarver View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong.).
    You are wrong.

    But if you have a 50+Xmm 5° stem or a 50mm 0° stem and a spacer of Y...
    If you recall how any given amount of Torque is measured, by a Lever, you will see you have a large difference in end-to-end leverage.

    Quote Originally Posted by extremecarver View Post
    ...and both constructions result in the same handlebar position...
    Here you're correct; the Handlebars resting at the same height.

    Quote Originally Posted by extremecarver View Post
    ...then there is absolutely no difference on the forces (as long as the HA is not changed).
    You are ...wrong.
    Since your Head Tube on axis is also on a Plane, this is how leverage will try to move it; an unending plane of whatever angle. Your Handlebar height is a plane, introducing an angled stem alters impacts and forces across this plane.
    A stem which either raises or lowers the area of the handle bar by design at an angle, will factor this change.
    Turn the Handlebar 90 deg. from center -- left or right -- and this effect will be negated. Just as the incremental changes up to these opposing points will feel greatest from when the stem and bars are pointed straight.
    The induced-feel is then changed from damping the on-axis-forces with a angled-stem; as the steering reachs limits forces twinly switch to the perpindicular-axis, from which any angle is based from.

    What is being done with introducing all these height and position variables is allowing any forces which directly effect the feel at the Handlebar an amplified-area between how they actually are channeled, felt and/or beamed.

    Get it? Your beams are not lined up.

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Jemima View Post
    You are wrong.


    If you recall how any given amount of Torque is measured, by a Lever, you will see you have a large difference in end-to-end leverage.
    But the lever is the same. It would be different if I changed something blow the headtube, then I alter the lever. But as the point I'm moving around (front/rear axle) and the point of attack (all force goes through the headtube/fork shaft) is not changed, there is no different lever.

    Or more exact, there would be a significant change if to reach the position the stem length would differ substantial - if you add 2 spacer and flip the stem, and arrive at the same position, no lever is changed at all (assuming no (significant) flex in your system). If you would add 1 spacer and use a 0° stem, yes then you slightly decrease the lever.

    However I doubt 5° flip/ 0° / 5° flop are noticeable for stems around 45-50mm. The position you arrive at is much more important and will be noticed (I clearly notice 1cm higher/lower handlebar, can make a heck of a difference).

  24. #24
    banned
    Reputation: Uncle Jemima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    512

    Idea!

    You are missing the main point here.

    Take two lines, have them arrive at a Right Angle. That is also it's 'Square'.
    Any effort applied to any one of these ends will effect only this angle squarely. Applying energy to the squared-end will also effect the angle, squarely. Technically, it's ideal operational point.

    That is baseline when overcoming types of momentum changes. Point 'A' to Point 'B' will always be a straight line for efficiencies sake.

    So your HandleBar in relation to your Steerer will always have that relationship by design, taking the Handlebar of whatever height and introducing an angled-plane (riser-stem) will reduce the amount of direct on-plane/on-axis feel to your hands. Damping.

    Instead of this squared-effect using a zero-rise stem across the Axis-Angle, steering becomes varied and quickened when panning from center-left and center-right. These are the points where Axis-Angle has no effect due to a Square-Angle being incrementally achieved.

    Really now, we have way too much thinking! You're trying to get a 63 deg. HT Angle, which is not offered. Headset cups, spacers, riser stem, riser bars create a large disconnect from your square-angle found at the Steer-Tube, no matter what quality of components you choose or who installs them. It is your bike in the end and do what you want when you want to.

    Not using a stem w/ zero-rise however, you will lose the consistent working-radius offered from it. The right set of Handlebar Upsweep (most critical) and BackSweep, this does actually provide slow steering by not altering a steering angle's working radius. And not altering the Steering Axis Angle inside of a set angle, which is the Headtube by itself.

    MTBR does not have a Handlebar/Stem Forum for good reason. As this type of discussion can go on for Hours.
    Days.
    Weeks.
    Months.

    But I digress.
    Last edited by Uncle Jemima; 07-06-2011 at 08:03 AM.

  25. #25
    Bicyclochondriac.
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    13,097
    Quote Originally Posted by extremecarver View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong. But if you have a 50+Xmm 5° stem or a 50mm 0° stem and a spacer of Y, and both constructions result in the same handlebar position, then there is absolutely no difference on the forces (as long as the HA is not changed).
    You are correct that if the same handlebar is in the same position relative to the headtube, the steering will be the same. Some of the individual force vectors might change (handlebar to stem, stem to steertube....) but in the end, the force vectors as calculated from the bar to the headtube will be the same.

    Actually, what really matters is the position and orientation of the grips relative to the top of the headtube (assuming all else is equal). Whatever stem/spacer/bar combo you use to achieve that, the results will be the same. In theory, some configurations may flex more and in different directions than others. In reality you are unlikely to notice the difference if all the components are reasonably stiff.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •